Limyaael ([info]limyaael) wrote,
@ 2003-12-11 22:12:00
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Current mood: amused
Entry tags:character life rants, characterization rants, fantasy rants: winter 2003

Rant on the hero's childhood.
More things in amateur fantasy fiction that make me squeak and hide.



Many fantasy novels are at heart bildungsromans, the fancy name for coming-of-age stories. Child grows up, becomes angsty teenager, inherits magical, royal, or prophetic power (sometimes all three at once), saves the world, and often rules the world.

This is such a basic form that saying I object to it would be like saying I object to the use of dragons in fantasy, or the marriage plot. Every time I think I hate it, I recall a book where it was done well. The points to remember are:

1) I hate badly-done bildungsromans more than any other form of fantasy fiction.

2) The number of professional fantasy authors whom I think do this well is extremely small. Guy Gavriel Kay (to the extent that any of his characters are teenagers) and George R. R. Martin do it extremely well, but then they're geniuses anyway. Tad Williams and Dave Duncan are the only other ones I can think of off the top of my head who do it well with teenagers. Lois McMaster Bujold and Carol Berg guide their adult heroes through believable revelations. Given this, you can imagine how rarely I find an amateur fantasy author handling the plot well.

So. What Should Be Done (according, of course, to the High and Mighty Limyaael, who fully expects everyone not to agree, but does not really care).

1. If you're going abusive, go subtle. By this point, seeing a drunken father hit his kids and give them broken arms makes me shriek in boredom. Yes, Child Abuse is Bad. You're probably not going to find anyone among your readers who disagrees with that by now, or who has not seen ten million variations of this plot. You know it, I know it, the psycho aliens from a planet ten miles over the rim of the universe know it. Using your book to either preach about child abuse or make the reader coo over the hero, so Bwave and Stwong for Suwiving Abuse, is old.

What many writers don't realize is that neglect, indifference, and emotional abuse can work just as well as the more dramatic physical kind. So can (if you really must inject sexual and/or physical abuse in there) hinting at it. I find myself much more disturbed if I know that something bad happened in the heroine's childhood, but I don't know exactly what, than if I am treated to a ten-page monologue about how she was raped, beaten, spat upon, and trodden down.

Ultimately, this hearkens back to what I complained about before: inflicting abuse on your protagonist in the very first scene of the novel. It wins emotional sympathy, but it's cheap emotional sympathy, and it makes your hero a victim.

2) No angsty monologues. Such as this, which is not real but could be:

"And stay out!"

Sarah sobbed as her father slammed the door behind her. Why was he so cruel to her? Every day he told her he had wanted a son instead of a daughter, and every day he made her go into the briar patch and pick berries, just because he wanted her to suffer.

Yeah. Right.

Show your readers the characters reacting, instead of telling them. And for the sake of any god you might believe in, don't always make the reaction tears of shattered innocence. At least some characters would probably go into shock, or have this horrible rage, or be completely passive and think the horrible things that happen to them are deserved. Tears and moping and angsty "Woe is me, for I am Teenage Protagonist #1298463 and My Parents Hate Me and I Have No Friends" monologues do not age well. They generally engage my interest for a page if they're well-done, half a page if they're puerile.

3) Start with something other than the hero's birth. You've probably read at least one fantasy book that starts with a child being born and various people- midwives are favorite candidates- telling how the child will grow up and defeat King Avediwhoop. Poor King Avediwhoop.

Why do this?

I mean it. Why? Prophecies work best when they're tricky or vague, and these are usually explicit. Also, childbirths aren't really all that interesting, particularly with the stock tropes of lots of blood and the prophetic birthmark and the mother dying, and having the narrator try to force me to root for an infant is annoying. Show me why I should root for this person. Show me why people are dying to keep them safe, or protect the prophecy, or whatever. A squalling baby has zero personality to separate it from other squalling babies, and I don't see why I should care that this particular one has golden eyes or a caul or a prophetic glow hanging about it.

4) For the love of [insert deity's name here], do not make children into Prophesying Zombies. You know the kind I mean. The child who's usually six or seven, sees into the future or at least is "wiser than his/her years," and makes cryptic statements that turn out to be eerily true. These are not children. These are excuses for the author to plant prophecies in the body of the story.

Quite often, these children have little personality outside of their 'Sight,' which is why I call them zombies. Also, there are very few characters who ever think, "Yeah, right. Kid's playing a joke." They bow down in awe instead.

5) Do not make children supernaturally skilled, either. Can you imagine the power of destructive fire in the hands of an eight-year-old? Apparently many amateur fantasy authors can't, since they give their children enormous magic and then, though it may threaten to get out of control, it never does. Sure. Like an eight-year-old wouldn't try to use that to make Mommy and Daddy stop harassing him to go to bed.

This applies to other things, as well- being really good at hunting, swordwork, archery, you name it. About the only skills other than crying and making messes that kids could be expected to be reasonably good at are finding food, taking care of other children, and herding animals, since these are tasks that don't take much physical strength and can be taught young. A child might start learning with a wooden sword, but having him defeat a knight twice his age makes me laugh hard enough to lose my lunch.

6) Reconsider the Dead Parent Angst. Think of how many fantasy heroes or heroines come from a home where both their parents are alive.

That's right. Almost none.

And verily I say unto you: Why the fuck not?

Yes, mothers die in childbirth in medieval settings. However, it really, really stands out when the mothers of all the other children are alive and apparently only the protagonist is suffering Dead Parent Angst. It makes even less sense if there are skilled healers or midwives nearby. Of course, perhaps they are under a special commission to let the mothers of saviors die so the saviors can angst.

The father is often either missing and mysterious, in which case the child gets to angst about being a bastard (even if no one else appears to care), or died in some heroic noble way. There are almost no fathers who succumbed to accidents, such as chopping down a tree that fell over on them the wrong way, or died of disease, or anything else that the protagonist might possibly get over. Oh, no, the Dead Parent Angst is there to stay, so that the protagonists can weep tears over how much they miss their mommas and daddies and how terrible their lives are as orphans or half-orphans, and I can scream and hit the back button down so many times I get carpal tunnel syndrome.

You'd think, from the way that amateur fantasy protagonists fixate on their parents, that the authors were working out their own problems.

No, no. That can't possibly be it.

7) Have at least vaguely normal relationships with their siblings.. Did your siblings idolize you? Probably not all the time. Did they hate you and make your life a living hell? Probably not all the time.

There's nothing wrong with touching some of these extremes some of the time. But really, how many times can you retell the Cinderella story, or the story of the Big Brother who is the Darling of his siblings? Try to mix and blend those extremes with the more normal middle. Few people hate or love their siblings as extremely as their creations do, and when the siblings start doing one or the other to the hero/heroine, they signal heavy-handedly that the reader is supposed to love him because he's so tortured, or love her because, look, everyone else loves her!

Blech.

8) (For female protagonists). Reconsider the rebellious princess/psuedofeminist plot. Girl wants to learn swordplay. Girl can't. Princess doesn't want to do ladylike things. Princess is told to do them. Much "They hate me because I'm a girl!" angst follows. I yawn, or shriek, depending on how badly it's done.

These are shallow things, not true feminist fantasy. I can't remember a book I've read with a plot like this where the main character goes out and starts trying to change things for other women. It's about her, her, her, and how miserable she is because she has to wear dresses (twit) or because she isn't allowed to go out and fight with a broadsword (normal human women can't lift them. Twit.) or because she's going to be forced into an arranged marriage (which, of course, never ever happens to males in fantasy fiction either. Twit), and how she will run away.

Yeah. Okay. Petty problems, one-dimensional male and female baddies determined to make SpunkyGirl Generic here suffer, and of course she's a shining paragon of truth and light no matter how much she whines.

Twit.

I think it's possible to write true feminist fantasy, but not by making your female protagonist use cliche language, suffer cliched problems that are nothing compared to what some of the poorer females in a medieval-like society would be suffering, and somehow only meet people who sneer at her for being a woman or love and worship her as the Greatest Thing Ever.

Twits.



So. There you go.

Rant on fantasy teenagers next.




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[info]amber_oak
2003-12-12 04:19 am UTC (link)
I swear, when I get my printer for Christmas, this will be the first thing I print out.

I am SO sick of having the kid's parents being dead. Honestly, it's cheap angst. And the pseudo-feminist is always repulsive. *gags*

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[info]chisotahn
2003-12-12 05:16 am UTC (link)
Hah, brilliant. ^^

I think the overuse of the teenage-thing is one reason why I chose older protagonists for Flight of the Shadows (Chiara is in her late twenties).

Although I would like to add one of my favorite books that is, sort of, a teenage coming of age story... there is that character dynamic of growth there, but not saving the world. ;) Peter S. Beagle's Tamsin. I adore that book.

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[info]limyaael
2003-12-12 12:12 pm UTC (link)
I can actually deal with the coming of age if it's just coming of age. It's simply that so many fantasy authors decide that puberty is the Magical Age, and so their teenagers should get magical powers and turn out to be the center of a prophecy and blah blah blah. There, I yawn, because to me it smacks so much of wish fulfillment that it's hard to take seriously. (Of course, I took it much more seriously when I was a teenager and wishing that suddenly everyone would pay attention to me, too.)

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[info]triad_serpent
2007-01-20 05:54 pm UTC (link)
What about a character who's old in mind and spirit - literally - but can't quite manage to grow up and stay grown up?

I have this in a the story in currently trying to finish, and in my little plot-thing, it's due to devine intervention, sorta. And the gods (or, well, one or two of them) actually do make an appearance, etc.

See, both my hero and heroine are in this situation, and while this means I don't have to deal with the pressures of the whole "coming of age" thing, they're still young enough (in one sense of the word) to appeal to my target audience. They're adult to a certain extent, but retain their youthful...whatever.

Erg. It's a work in progress. -__-" And hard to explain in a nutshell what's easy to slip into the novel. ...harder still, to explain, because it's two AM....yeah, I should sleep now. ^^"

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[info]clannoire
2003-12-12 05:23 am UTC (link)
8) (For female protagonists). Reconsider the rebellious princess/psuedofeminist plot.

Hear hear! (Or more accurately, Hear here!) :D
Another one of the more common cliches used by authors, which you've pointed out. The horrible thing is, most of these rebellious princesses/pseudofeminists turn out to be Mary-Sues. :(

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[info]limyaael
2003-12-12 12:13 pm UTC (link)
Exactly. I keep wandering around FictionPress, looking (mostly in vain) for good fantasy to read, and half of the protagonists I find who could be Mary Sues without any details changed if you plopped them down in a fanfiction world are rebellious princeses or "They hate me because I'm a girl!" types.

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[info]mariagoner
2003-12-12 05:50 am UTC (link)
>>The High and Mighty Limyaael

That's what all your little cultists are going to refer to you as in the shrine we're building to your honor.

Also...

>>If you're going abusive, go subtle.

Er... how about if you have a child that lives with a mentally ill/clinically depressed mother that occasionally neglects her during her "down swings." Is that subtle enough?

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[info]limyaael
2003-12-12 12:15 pm UTC (link)
I think so. It's in the way the character reacts as much as anything else. I did a hero who was so ignored by his family (because he didn't have a powerful Destiny or great magic) that few people remembered he existed, but he had just come to accept it as the natural order of things and didn't angst over it. Many people who read the story didn't seem to count it as abuse, but the ones who did told me got far more upset over it than they probably would if it had been your standard broken-bones abuse plot.

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[info]illandaria
2003-12-12 06:39 am UTC (link)
Destructive fire in the nands of an eight-year-old? Hmmmm. Thank you for this. *Wicked grin*

And I still like my vaguely tomboyish heroines, when I use them. I find I enjoy writing about them just being vaguely sardonic much more than I enjoy the "oh, no! I'm a woman and must therefore wear dresses and get married and stuff." The times I've used that particular bit of angst have tended to happen when there's other culture shock involved, such as my tomboy peasant heroine finding herself at the king's court or something similar.

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[info]limyaael
2003-12-12 12:19 pm UTC (link)
Well, I think there's a middle ground in between completely lady-like and tomboyish. (What I would like to see, and have almost never seen outside Kay and Martin, are female heroines who do accept the woman's role in a medieval society but use that to gain power, working from behind the scenes and using their sexuality as a weapon, rather than swordfighting). Or the author can escape from the trap altogether my making women completely equal, which is my usual way. I just think, after having read a lot of Mercedes Lackey and Marion Zimmer Bradley novels, that there aren't that many ways an author can do the "They hate her because she's a GIRL!" plot without coming off either preachy or shrill. It also leads to flat characterization of everyone who opposes her as weak or a chauvinist, and I like some indication that the writer isn't that much on the protagonist's side.

(Actually, in some ways Marion Zimmer Bradley's Darkover novels can be exceptions to this, because they involve women actually supporting and helping each other in their own Amazon-like bands rather than sitting and shrieking. But even they didn't change rhetoric and were preachy, and so I got tired of them).

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[info]mariagoner
2003-12-12 03:28 pm UTC (link)
>>working from behind the scenes and using their sexuality as a weapon

I agree with the "behind the scenes" part, but the "sexuality as a weapon" always leads to uber-beautiful babes with tragic pasts, in my experience. And isn't that what needs to be avoided?

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[info]otakukeith
2003-12-12 08:04 pm UTC (link)
Of course, do all fantasy worlds need to have societies almost identical to medieval Earth?

Mind you, this kind of thinking can lead to stuff like Robert Jordan, whose female characters are considered 'strong' because they hold positions of authority and bitch/yell at the poor put-upon male characters 24/7. :D

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[info]yaoihuntresse
2006-12-19 06:18 pm UTC (link)
I hate those kinds of "strong females." Being a bitch doesn't make you enpowered, it just makes you a bitch.

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[info]limyaael
2003-12-14 05:08 am UTC (link)
I think the "tragic past, beautiful woman" part is just like any other trope; it all depends how the author handles it. I can believe in Martin's Daenerys, for example (young princess, purple-eyed, lost her husband unborn son) because she channels her pain into anger, and has been raised all her life to believe that her family rightfully belongs on the throne they were kicked off of, so she's going to go claim it. And Kay has a heroine, Alixana, who has a "tragic" past as a whore and a dancer, yet rises to be Empress of Sarantium and doesn't dwell on her past (though other people do). Another woman in the same book has a tragic past that just about broke her, but it isn't linked to sex, and a queen in the same story has to use sex to get what she wants, until she moves into a position where she can use her brain.

The wanting-to-do-sword-swinging bit and the whining about how boys are holding them back are what really get to me, and the parts that authors almost never do well (the worst female swordswomen I've encountered tend to be supernaturally skilled with the blade, even without any training).

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[info]rhjunior
2005-08-02 01:03 am UTC (link)
That's one thing that painted me into a corner with Tales of the questor.... with a race of magical creatures with INBORN abilities and magical talents I had to hastily downplay the level of power a child could pull down. Even if the parents were just as magical, that doesn't eliminate the problem. The simple fact remains that it only takes a match, not a fireball, to make a child a hazard.

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BbHtrYoink here again...
(Anonymous)
2003-12-12 08:18 pm UTC (link)
The High and Mighty Limyaael is right! =)

Wow. All these are SO incredibly helpful. Let me recount the ones that helped the most:

#1: I was thinking of having one of my characters (there are going to be four) have a semi-abusive relationship with her family, but it honestly never crossed my mind to do it subtly. It works so much better that way though (from my own reading experiences, as well as yours). Thank you!

#2: First draft began with an angsty monologue. *Takes out red cross-out pen*

#7: I wasn't thinking much about sibling relationships, but now that you called it to my attention, I'll avoid the idealized relationships.

Also, what do you think I should do about having a tramatic event in childhood that becomes almost the center of the character's life? You see, all of my characters have magic (cliche, I know, but I want to see if, over the course of the actual story, I can turn the storyline from cliche to really realistic). One of the characters (Sheila) had a grandmother who was also gifted, and her grandmother began to teach her to use magic in secret when she was only six or seven. (Mom and Dad aren't wizards, and don't know that granny is either.) However, granny was getting old, and she accidentially slipped up while holding magic, trying to teach Sheila. Result: Granny goes insane and then dies, RIGHT IN FRONT OF SHEILA. Result: Sheila is deathly afraid of her own magic, and blames herself for her grandmother's death.

What do you think? Too angsty/unbelievable? Any suggestions on how to put it in well, or warnings of what NOT to do?

(Sorry for the long question: It just seemed like a good place to ask it, since you were ranting on children and agnst.)

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Re: BbHtrYoink here again...
[info]limyaael
2003-12-14 05:10 am UTC (link)
BbHtrYoink: I think in that case your character would have a good reason to fear her magic and mourn her grandmother. The point would be not to go on and on about it. Don't mention the grandmother on page 3, mention her agin on page 7, have the heroine see someone else die on page 28 and think That's just like Grandma, have her mourn on the anniversary of the death on page 35, and so on. A mention once or twice, and subtle mentions like really paralyzing fear in a similar situation, would get your point across.

The angsting and moaning and whining are what really get on my nerves, and in my experience they can make even a justified loss seem not worth all the time and self-blame the character spends on it.

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[info]marumae
2003-12-14 05:26 am UTC (link)
Still no keyboard >_> *replying to this from mom's house*

Hmm you need to put all this together as one big essay! and make it avilable outside your journal! *nods* definately*

1) I hate badly-done bildungsromans more than any other form of fantasy fiction.

I agree ><; even when I was new to fantasy and I started reading David Eddings stories I thought they were cliche. I have to find a decent one, if you know of one by all means point me in the right direction because it is a good plot if badly done by most out there.



6) Reconsider the Dead Parent Angst.

The only person I've seen do this well is George R.R. Martin with Jon Snow, Jon's mother is dead. His father doesn't talk about her, he doesn't know about her, he wonders about her but doesn't (obesess) and magically find a ton of people who luckily "knew" their his Mother and goes on and on in various points of the story talking about how wonderful and beautiful she was and-oh-my-god-your-eyes-are-just-like-hers *gags* Martin makes it relevant when necessary and the rest drops behind. Which is what more fantasy authors should do...

Can you imagine the power of destructive fire in the hands of an eight-year-old?

Funny how that piece of logic escapes most eh? It's not even that, it's the fact that they automatically know how to use it? I don't mind children have strong power I believe they do in some ways, but the sheer fact that these children always know exactly how to use it to it's most destructive force and the fact that they even Know it exists at all! ><;

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[info]limyaael
2003-12-14 02:51 pm UTC (link)
Hi Marumae! I hope you get a keyboard that works soon. *hug*

I have to find a decent one, if you know of one by all means point me in the right direction because it is a good plot if badly done by most out there.

Dave Duncan does this really well- and using a rebellious princess and a stableboy, no less- in the "A Man of His Word" series. The first book is Magic Casement. A lot of it depends on his at least partially ironic tone towards the princess. He doesn't take her completely seriously the way that a lot of fantasy authors do. And the rest is the good development of his characters and the unique system of magic in his world.

I don't mind children have strong power I believe they do in some ways, but the sheer fact that these children always know exactly how to use it to it's most destructive force and the fact that they even Know it exists at all! ><;

Exactly. The usual angle is, "Well, we must now take you and train you or it will get out of control!" but you never actually see it get out of control. If it threatens to, the older wizard always steps in and stops it. Given how children can quickly react and change their minds and tempers, I don't think the adult should always have the quicker reflexes, and I would have expected to read at least one story about a kid who burns his house down, but I never have.

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[info]xianghua
2004-01-01 03:41 am UTC (link)
What about Cimorene, from the Enchanted Forest Chronicles by Patricia Wrede?

Admittedly, it's a kids book- but she *is* an awfully fun character.

Mercedes Lackey has improved on this of late- at least, since her first few books. It's still one of her weakest points- especially in that I can't figure out how the heck a society with female guards and heralds can be so dismissive of a female heir or a female Queen's Own, or a Queen, for that matter.

Cait

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[info]nextian
2004-02-12 03:56 am UTC (link)
Re 2): So, so very very true. I fear greatly angsty monologues. I used to love Terry Goodkind; now I look back on Faith of the Fallen and Nicorema (or whatever) and her useless, endless, puling whining about her oppression...and I HATE her. In fact, 99% of his characters do this eventually, even the hardened sadist freaks.

...Erm. Trailed off. Angsty monologues are BAD.

For number one, I agree with a twist. You see, I was first introduced to my fantasy world when trying to write a "bildungsroman" story, from an "airbrushed" character profile, with one dead parent thrown in 'cause, hey, we need a dead parent, right? And it was all for a class assignment...

The really scary thing is, I still kind of like this story. Perversely.

But my classmates were churning out the same thing, fantasy and non-fantasy. And I have discovered that if there is one over-used plot that I violently hate it is the coming of age story.

Anyway, I've gotten mad plotbunnies from this rant. I would love, now, to write about a princess and a prince who are forced into an arranged marriage, and don't like it...but they DEAL. And they have happily ever after anyway. Also one about an eight-year-old with destructive magic, especially since my little brother is now eight.

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[info]yay4pikas
2004-04-13 11:47 am UTC (link)
5) Do not make children supernaturally skilled, either.

Argh, seriously! Even plausibly skilled children can be damn irritating if not handled well -- while precocious kids aren't automatically annoying, they are if everyone around them worships the group they walk on. And kids who could manipulate fire would just be very scary.

and fight with a broadsword (normal human women can't lift them. Twit.)

Not so -- four, maybe five pounds would be about max weight for most swords (see article - "Even the big hand-and-a-half ‘war’ swords rarely weigh more than 4.5 lbs."). Beyond that they get improbably unwieldy. The normal human woman can lift one -- immediately swing it around with control and finesse, no, but neither can the average scrawny teenage boy with no training -- and a woman can learn to use a sword that's balanced appropriately for her, just as a boy who's been training since seven can. The rapiers I fence with are about 3-3.5 pounds and two-thirds my height, and while I'm in decent shape, I suspect a lot of medieval women would be stronger from manual labor (maybe not nobles, but it would be interesting to see more peasant women joining the army and the like. Hmm).

Mind, I am a big fan of woman warrior stories, although not so much the "*whine whine* I don't wanna be a lady!" sort, and I'm rather vested in historical examples of women fighting and the plausibility of using weapons (and given some of the ridiculous lengths rapiers got in the Renaissance, most people would be surprised at the fighting systems people made work). So a woman using a broadsword isn't in and of itself implausible -- actually, I have to give Mercedes Lackey credit in By the Sword for coming up with an explanation for untrained Kerowyn being able to right really well, and for giving Kero another reason to pick up the sword than not wanting to be a lady.

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[info]laraqua
2006-02-18 02:17 pm UTC (link)
I was about to say the exact same thing. And some women could easily pick up a broadsword and swing it around. People get so wrapped up in the 'slender heroine' physique they forget that other ones exist. There are some women who can pile on muscle better than most men, though I doubt that any woman can be more muscular than the most muscled of men, and I'd see nothing wrong in a giant of a woman weilding a broadsword well. Of course, if the short and slender heroine weilds it perfectly, or worse yet, starts blocking attacks with it, yeesh!

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[info]triad_serpent
2007-01-20 05:39 pm UTC (link)
Perfect example of the "Unwomanly" figured heroine is Kel, in Tamora Pierce's "Protector of the Small" quartet. Kel isn't once described as "willowy" or any of that other nonsense. ^^ She's a fighter, plain and simple. One of my favorite written, in fact. At least, written my Pierce...

In her earlier series, "Song of the Lioness," and "The Immortals" Ms. Pierce is guilty of a few of the above charges, but she's an author I've been reading since forever, and I must remain loyal. ^^

~Kai

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[info]archangelbeth
2005-01-31 11:34 pm UTC (link)
Start with something other than the hero's birth. You've probably read at least one fantasy book that starts with a child being born and various people- midwives are favorite candidates- telling how the child will grow up and defeat King Avediwhoop. Poor King Avediwhoop.
I am now wanting to tell a story, somehow, where Avediwhoop is actually trying to do the right thing (at least by his lights), and now he's got this timetable for when the kid is going to defeat him, before he can accomplish his goals.

I'll let it simmer.

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[info]kurtoons
2005-04-04 03:05 pm UTC (link)
I just found your rants and I love them.

From a purely mechanical point of view, the Dead Parents Angst does serve one useful purpose: A lack of parents means that the Hero is Alone and Friendless In The World and must overcome her challenges by herself.

The Belgian cartoonist Herge, creator of Tintin, was once asked by his publishers to come up with a more realistic character with a family. He tried, but found the new series unsatisfying and difficult to write. The family kept getting in the way of the plot!

"First it was necessary to give the father a job, one which involved travel... additionally this father and the mother would have to spend much of their time worrying about the fate of their poor childern who were always disappearing in different directions. The whole family would therefore have to trave -- that was exhausting! I had to throw in the towel... Tintin at least was free! Good old Tinitin!... It reminds me of something Jules Ranard once said, "Not everyone can be an orphan!"

Or as W.S. Gilbert observed:

"For he is an orphan boy!
He is, Hoorah fot the orphan boy!
(And it sometimes is a useful thing
To be an orphan boy!)"

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[info]dbzlives
2005-09-16 01:10 pm UTC (link)
I'm finding these posts incredibly late, but I have to do a drive-by rec for Dragon Bones and Dragon Blood by Patricia Briggs. Dragons are not quite as prominent as the titles would make you think, and they handle abuse incredibly well. There are hints dropped through out the books, but the main character doesn't even talk about it until halfway through the second book when his father's been dead for five years. The kids in question are screwed up by it but the story doesn't dwell on that. They're probably my favorite books right now.

Also, there's a really good portrayal of a woman warrior. I want to *be her* when I grow up.

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[info]afree87
2005-10-15 03:44 am UTC (link)
Tears and moping and angsty "Woe is me, for I am Teenage Protagonist #1298463 and My Parents Hate Me and I Have No Friends" monologues do not age well.

This is undoubtedly one of the best sentences in the history of literary criticism.

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[info]little_e_
2006-03-28 07:42 pm UTC (link)
I think the vast majority of things teens (and 'young adults') write is inspired by their personal lives and attempts at dealing with their own issues. Which is pretty obvious if you've read even one screaming mary sue.

I know my own stories are pretty guilty of the dead/no parents, but I try to comfort myself that the characters don't angst about it. They're typically caught up in far more pressing things like *war* and don't have time to worry about who might have birthed them years ago before they were raised by their adopted family etc. Family just isn't something they think about.

Of course, I can't particularly take the moral highground. My parents are crazy and I don't like talking to them (and currently am't), so of course I've relieved my characters of this 'burden'.

Funny thing is, when I was younger, folks used to ask me why my characters weren't sadder about their lack of parents. They thought my characters were emotionally unbelievable. Too bad back then I didn't have the courage to reply that i'd be fucking thrilled if my parents disappeared/I got sucked into a fantasy realm and couldn't get back.

Not everyone (or every character) thinks family is the be-all end-all of importance. Different people have different psychologies. Folks need to keep that in mind more.


Lately I've been trying to work family back into my stories a bit, because my personal isolation had led some of the characters to be too isolated. Not everyone can be independent from their family. Even if it's easier for the hero to go off on adventure or become king or whatever if their parents are dead (it's generally tricky to become king while one's parents are still alive, after all,) in any society

A. the vast majority of people will have families, and those family relations will be important, *especially* in psuedo-mideval societies, which I think is the flipside of family angst, people forgetting that in older/more economically unstable societies, people had extensive kin networks which often stood in the place of or *were* local gov't structures.

B. Orphans are much, much more likely to be mentally fucked up and developmentally delayed. Your average kid raised by a couple of uncaring aunts/uncles, (*coughharrypottercough*) unloved and uncared for, will have severe issues. Hell, my mother was raised by neglectful parents, and I've read studies on what that will do to a kid's brain development, and these people are not going to be your heroes unless they are adopted right away by kind and loving people and grow up as otherwise normal kids.

It would be interesting to see a story in which an orphaned kid actually grows up to act like an *orphan* and has to cope with all of the mental and emotional crap that entails, but it would also be pretty depressing.

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[info]little_e_
2006-03-28 07:49 pm UTC (link)
That post was getting too long, so I thought I'd put additional thoughts in a second one.

Psuedofeminists: I can believe in self-centered egotistical feminists whose feminism extends to how society treats them and no one else. But I'm not going to think of them as particularly good people.

I think I would add to that almost all insertion of modern values into mideaval or psuedo-mideaval settings. 'Oh, I'm so much better than everyone else because I'm a feminist, pro-gay, pagan, free-speach-loving, anti-slavery/racism, good person!' Because obviously there were tons of folks running around in the mideaval period with these kinds of values, everyone who held other values (read: 95% of the human population for most of history) was bad and evil, and characters can't have moral ambiguity or complexity.

Which I suppose is related to the problem of people writing 'mideaval' stories in which the characters act and sound exactly like American teenagers, with the occasional 'thee' and 'twas' thrown in. No, honey, mideaval folk did *not* think like Americans.

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[info]mypsychoticself
2006-10-05 10:04 pm UTC (link)
Have you ever read Apropos of Nothing? I think you'd like it. His mother dies and he has 'dead mother angst,' but that was because he knew his mother, and she was a good one. Even better, the protagonist fondly recalls her as a prostitute. And he's a bastard. In more than one way. He totally kicks his 'best friend's' ass:D
Or Dealing with Dragons? It's a kid's book, but the protagonist decides that, instead of whigning, she'll go get a job. And she actively avoids getting married to anyone and everyone... until the third book. But, whatever.

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[info]triad_serpent
2007-01-20 05:30 pm UTC (link)
...I think I love you. I'm reading through all this going, "THANK GOD! I HAVEN'T DONE MOST OF THESE!" and then snickering to myself and muttering, "But J.K. Rowling has..." and feeling generally much better about myself. ^^ You're pointing out much of what I've complained about to my fellow writing friends, and I thank you! And now...well, I'm off to go nitpick some fanfiction. *sheepish grin* It's an addiction, what can I say...? lol.

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[info]kjkhyperion
2007-02-04 09:25 pm UTC (link)
Can you imagine the power of destructive fire in the hands of an eight-year-old? Apparently many amateur fantasy authors can't, since they give their children enormous magic and then, though it may threaten to get out of control, it never does. Sure. Like an eight-year-old wouldn't try to use that to make Mommy and Daddy stop harassing him to go to bed.

I think Stephen King handled it best, in Firestarter. The titular character is a little girl born with horrendous pyrokinetic powers — she can set anything she wants on fire, and King really meant anything, as she is seen setting freaking fire-proof bricks on fire in one experiment.

Her parents simply approached the issue from a "potty training" perspective: they "fire-trained" her, by showing her how her fire powers had upset Mom and Dad and totally ruined her teddy bear. She gets so inhibited about her powers that she has physical difficulty unleashing them on the bad guys! Really, rebellious kids just put on big scenes, but are ultimately harmless. They will do as their parents say, to the point of hurting themselves. Unless the parents just don't give a damn.

In Marvel's X-Men, mutant superpowers don't manifest themselves until puberty, and that is precisely a cheap gimmick to heighten drama, because being teenagers they cannot be as easily (if at all) contained by their parents. A generation of super-powered toddlers would be way more interesting.

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[info]j_ts
2007-09-06 12:29 am UTC (link)
I've just started reading some of your rants and they are just absolutely amazing. You really 'hit the nail on the head' if you'll excuse the cliche. Keep them coming!!

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[info]balsaatmgg
2007-10-22 08:44 am UTC (link)
Nice points, and well said.

Peace,
- Benjamin

P.S. It's been a while. :)

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[info]unhtaa_kissa
2007-12-26 10:59 pm UTC (link)
I have an interesting experience relating to the feminism thing. In 6th grade, our class did a Greek unit and we did a simulation (as usual) for it. We were put in groups named after the city-states (Athens, Corinth, Sparta...) and competed against each other for the most points (earned by various group and individual projects). I wanted to be in Sparta because the women there were allowed to learn how to fight (they didn't actually go to war and it was mainly so they could raise healthy strong boys, but I thought it was cool). I ended up in Corinth. At the end when the Sparta group was presenting and they mentioned how they allowed the women to work-out and stuff, I remember thinking "Hmmph, well we're [Corinth women] better than them." I seriously consider the Spartan ladies to be somewhat barbaric at that moment. I was pretty surprised to learn that I was proud to be a Corinth lady, and if I was offered a choice to be Spartan I would have refused.
I don't think that reaction to a female-warrior gets shown enough. Or at least not why. And if this feminist character did try to change things, I think a lot of the females would resist.
Also, another cliche is that the female hero is *never* feminine if she's a warrior. Wouldn't a true feminist author have the female-hero wear pretty things and still be a strong woman?

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