Limyaael ([info]limyaael) wrote,
@ 2003-12-14 21:01:00
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Current mood: bouncy
Current music:Nightwish- Walking in the Air
Entry tags:fantasy rants: winter 2003, world-building rants

In which Limyaael shows off knowledge from History of English.
Guess who wound up not working on her essays today?

Oh, well.



(This admitting of my biases is getting to be a standard part of the rant).

Other than C. S. Lewis, Tolkien's LOTR was the first real fantasy that I read. He managed to infect me with not only a fascination for non-humans, but the linguistic bug. I think even professional authors should pay more attention to languages in their fantasy novels than they do, but some attention is at least better than the mess that is the result of some people's attempting to make up their own language.

1) Don't use capital letters or apostrophes in the middle of words. Just don't. It makes it look weird to the reader, and your reader spends more time wondering how to pronounce them than reading the story. Is LImya said differently than Limya or lImya? How about Li'mya? At times, authors do try to include something in the front of the story like, "The apostrophe should be pronounced as a glottal stop," but this gets old very quickly. The apostrophes and capital letters are supposedly to give the language an exotic flavor, but here exotic crosses the line into weird and distracting.

2) Don't use silly strings of letters, either. Sure, it can look "alien" to call a dragon Jwxgchiblwz. But it is only confusing to your readers, who are expecting to read a fantasy and not a book where the author's fingers apparently occasionally went spastic on the keyboard. Avoid this, just as the capital letters and apostrophes in the middles of words. If you really want an exotic flavor, construct the names of each culture on a strict rule, and when they encounter a new culture or group of people, then model the names on some other rule. They will be distinctively different and sound so to your characters without giving your readers hernias.

3) Don't unthinkingly accept the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis. In simple form (the form which most people know it in), the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis says that language structures thought. Thus, someone who has only two color words in their language, like the words for light and dark colors, supposedly cannot actually recognize dark red and dark blue as distinct colors. This has been proven manifestly untrue in simple experiments with people who speak these kinds of languages, where they were able to recognize the different colors as different and could learn the words for them in other languages with ease.

Language is not an iron chain on thought, and much thought takes place without language at all. Orwell's Newspeak would have failed. Similarly, a fantasy language that is supposedly the "language of evil" or the "language of good" would fail on strict linguistic grounds. The people who spoke that language would still be capable of thinking outside it.

Of course, Tolkien himself violates this rule with the Black Speech, but Tolkien had a fine ear for linguistic differences (to him, Welsh was pleasing, Gaelic was not, and he may have modeled a few words of the Black Speech on Gaelic- thus nazg, Black Speech for "ring," is close to nasc, Gaelic for "ring") and could get away with this kind of thing. Nor did he represent the language as the source of evil; it was evil because of who made it.

4) Don't assume that constructed languages would necessarily spread in a single generation. Again, Tolkien's Black Speech seems to be the exception to this- somewhat ironically, it is the only completely constructed language in Middle-earth; Sauron is the only character in Middle-earth who shares his creator's favorite hobby- but its creator was immortal, and it developed naturally after being released into the "wild," as it were, splitting into many Orcish tongues. (Like a lot of information I use on Tolkien's languages, this comes from Ardalambion, or Of the Tongues of Arda, the best site on Tolkien's languages, which I urge you to check out).

Most amateur fantasy authors aren't nearly so careful. A language can be created and spread and never change. The "Common Tongues" are a particularly bad example of this. Rarely is there any natural history to them, either with their being a single dominant language of the land or a pidgin, then creole, of many different tongues. Most races speak the Common Tongue in addition to their own. But why? Where did it come from? The authors don't bother to explain.

This leads me into...

5) Realize that linguistic differences will exist in a wide world. Robert Jordan is really, really bad at this. He has cultures spread across a large continent, and even a culture that has spent hundreds of years on the other side of the ocean, and yet everyone speaks the same language, with only a slight accent.

Think a little. Fantasy worlds will either not have global communication, or have it only in limited kinds (for really important messages, telepathy might be used, as it is on Marion Zimmer Bradley's Darkover, but even there, it is possible only because the mental "language" is common to all telepaths and is different from normal speech). It does not make sense for someone who lives on the other side of the world to speak the same language as someone who lives on the near side, even if it is a "Common Tongue." There would be at least regional variations, and probably much more differentiation than there is between, say, British English and American English.

Characters in fantasy with linguistic problems either live in worlds which apparently have some secret means of global communication, always meet with one person who can speak their language, or manage to miraculously learn the new tongue in a matter of days or weeks. Not possible, because...

6) Remember that linguistic facility declines with age. Children are the best learners of languages, and can grow up equally fluent in two or more with ease, as long as their parents insist they learn them. Linguistic ability like this declines, save in rare cases of polyglot geniuses, from about ten years of age or a little after. A protagonist who is sixteen and has spoken only the Common Tongue all her life is not going to be able to learn the language of the tribe who rescued her from dying in the cold just like that, particularly if there is no translator to guide her. Names of objects and some concrete actions might come easily, but imagine trying to explain the concepts of "be," "no," "yes," "yesterday," "tomorrow," or "red" without common terms. The heroine would never know, if someone yelled at her for touching a pot, whether the words really meant, "No!" or just "Don't touch that!" It would take multiple times to be sure. Meanwhile, she's trying to deal with multiple examples like this, and all the non-linguistic problems.

It's easy to see why authors want a quick fix to this problem, but unfortunately it cuts apart one of the keystones of reality in a medieval-like world, especially one filled with several different cultures and languages. If you have linguistic complexity in your world, you should accept the costs that come with that.

7) Most fantasy worlds do not have the printing press, and literacy is not mandatory. Unless you manage to explain how your protagonists learned to read, the average reader is likely to be skeptical about it. Nobles have the best excuse. Other times, something can be devised (see J. V. Jones's "Book of Words" trilogy, where the hero, Jack, learns to read over a period of five years by copying down books of pictures and words that he was originally hired to copy precisely because he could not read). But many times, heroes or heroines raised out in the middle of nowhere on a not particularly prosperous farm can still read and write. It boggles the imagination.

Another problem is the wide availability of books in many fantasy worlds outside academies, rich nobles' houses, or monasteries, all of which might be reasonably expected to contain them. If this world has the printing press, fine. Yet somehow the protagonists are always getting access to books in worlds that don't have it. This seems to happen especially if the books are older, when you'd think it would be harder.

There's never any doubt that the information in books is accurate, either, despite the propensity of scribes to make mistakes in their copying, insert little notes, or try to make "improvements" on the original text. Just once I would like to see a hero who has to read the answer in some ancient book take a moment to wonder about its accuracy.

The source of this problem, I think, is most fantasy authors' comfort with books and words in general in our own time. We can read and find books everywhere, so we don't think it's a big deal. But it is a big problem when you have a peasant hero who should never have learned how to read fluent in the philosophies of his world. (On occasion, authors even violate their own rules, as a few stories I have read that state ardently that girls in their worlds are not taught to read and then as ardently show their heroines deciphering secret messages, without explaining how she could read them).

8) Please, no English-dependent puns. I've seen this ruin a few otherwise good books. Unless your book is specifically set on modern Earth or is historical fantasy, it's a good bet that your characters aren't speaking English. Trying to have them solve riddles or crack jokes where the answer depends on the English word- or worse, the actual spelling of the English word- sends me into convulsions. It also destroys the carefully built-up suspension of disbelief (assuming the author has managed this).

9) Try to keep names consistent. If you take all your names for one country of characters from Spain, and the next from Italy, fine. If you make is so that most female characters' names end with -ian and most male characters' names with -er, fine. The mixing of names really gets to me, though, particularly when modern Earth names are mixed with made-up names and names from Earth's historical periods.

Of course, there's Tolkien on one end of the scale, who not only specifically adapted his hobbit-names from Old English sources or English words, but also gave the history of what some of those names would have been in Westron. Not everyone has to be like him. But please, please, please avoid the (unintentionally) hilarious example of Sara Douglass's The Wayfarer Redemption, which merrily uses Biblical names, Portuguese names, and names like StarDrifter. And the heroine's name is Faraday.

Most fantasy authors can settle somewhere in the middle.



Probably unnecessarily detailed, but I'm really, really sensitive to language.




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Thank you!
[info]chatte_noire
2003-12-15 07:23 am UTC (link)
I have to agree, it does get rather annoying to see such inconsistencies in languages. Sadly, only a few people plan on taking the time to string together their work.

By the way, keep on ranting, it makes the rest of us feel so much better. *grin*

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[info]johnnymcbadass
2003-12-15 08:10 am UTC (link)
Very interesting post. Hope you don't mind that I'm befriending you. ;)

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[info]limyaael
2003-12-16 01:40 am UTC (link)
Nope. Hope you don't mind me friending you back...

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BbHtrYoink
(Anonymous)
2003-12-15 01:31 pm UTC (link)
Sapir-Whorf hypothesis? New vocabulary word! =)

I personally think that language doesn't play quite as big of a role in stories as you make out. Certianly, I agree with all the points you are making (they just make so much SENSE!) but what I mean is, usually neither the plot nor the characters in the story depend on language, and language is only part of the setting.

For instance, I've read Robert Jordan (hold your groans of disgust till the end, please!) and truthfully, the language problem never struck me once. Now, I'll admit I was not looking for flaws while I read, but just trying to enjoy the story. And I was able to do that, because the language was not a big enough part of the story to matter to the plot, and the story still worked.

Of course, more details (especially correct ones) give a story that extra kick that turns it into a great story. Obviously, Jordan didn't have this. I've read Tigana, by George R. R. Martin, and I do see what those extra details can do for a story (it's amazing!)

Remember, I'm not saying language isn't important to a story, I just don't think it's all that important.

(You may groan with disgust now.)

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Re: BbHtrYoink
[info]limyaael
2003-12-16 01:43 am UTC (link)
*groans with disgust now*

Seriously, what chased me away from Jordan was the insane character-jumping first; I hated how he did just a few chapters or even only one chapter for a group in Path of Daggers and then abandoned it. The man has lost control of his story, whether or not he's really money-grubbing. I couldn't take it.

What prompted me to study it more closely- and in terms of things like linguistics and economy- were all the people who claimed what a good, realistic fantasy world it was. Uh. It's not realistic. The language thing is only the tip of the iceberg. The inconsistent governments, the apparent lack of any maturity in any of the adult characters (Lan possibly excepted), the fact that everyone can somehow still find food despite a harsh drought and winter, the endless resurrections, the utter stupidity of the Bad Guys... it goes on and on.

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[info]irian
2003-12-15 05:34 pm UTC (link)
Gotta rush. Shall try to comment more in-depth during the weekend. But for now, gotta say great rant, as always.

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[info]starfishofelves
2003-12-16 08:43 pm UTC (link)
But please, please, please avoid the (unintentionally) hilarious example of Sara Douglass's The Wayfarer Redemption, which merrily uses Biblical names, Portuguese names, and names like StarDrifter. And the heroine's name is Faraday.

I had a friend who was telling me about the novel they were writing and they were exactly like that. They had a great deal of lesser characters with fantasy-sounding names, and then they had their main character's name be Simon. We spent a good half-hour arguing about that, among other things concerning the mentioned novel.

On naming, you should see what I've been going through to get good centaur-sounding names. I try to find the horsiest name I can and then try to say it in a sort of whinnying voice. I look pretty bizarre, let me tell you.

Good rant, as always. Hope you don't mind that I have all of your rants bookmarked. They're good for reference when writing.

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[info]limyaael
2003-12-17 12:33 am UTC (link)
I think having English names really only works if there's a consistent rule. For example, the hero of the Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn trilogy by Tad Williams is also named Simon, but that's because everyone in that Kingdom has Biblical names (and it's also an adaptation of his real name, Seoman). I get unhappy when I read a book where the main character is named something like Simon, but his friend is Carlos, and their next friend is Pierre.

Good rant, as always. Hope you don't mind that I have all of your rants bookmarked. They're good for reference when writing.

Don't mind at all. They're fun to write, and I'm glad they're helping people.

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Replying to an old comment
[info]starfishofelves
2004-03-01 02:43 pm UTC (link)
No, this one's got Simon, Brian, Miki, and Blade. And Tim the sage.

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[info]marumae
2003-12-19 06:32 pm UTC (link)
Apostrophies everywhere doth not a good fantasy language make. Same goes for names ending in "ilth, ean, agon or gon and ique". X_X;

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Hmm.
[info]camwyn
2004-01-29 06:05 am UTC (link)
I'm working on an alternate-history version of China, set in a world with significant amounts of magic sloshing around. The setting corresponds to the late 1800's, but due to ancient magical circumstances Atlantis remains above the waves and China, well, it's called the Empire of the Ten Thousand Islands... anyway. The first character through whose eyes we really get to examine the world was kidnapped from his home in a Hokkien-speaking province at the age of eight and sold into slavery among the Ainu pirates. By the time he finally managed to escape, two masters and nine years later, he'd gained fluency in the primary Ainu dialect and in Nipponese, which was used by different Ainu kotans to communicate when dialect differences were too great- but since he hadn't been exposed to it in years, he could barely pronounce any of his native Hokkien, and the only Cantonese he remembered (Cantonese being the 'official' dialect used to tie the Islands together) was very bad words. He had been taught to read a little as a kid, but it was almost all useless to him when he returned, and he had to be intensively schooled by a very patient scholar for a year before he could be put into any kind of formal education. Which he promptly failed out of after a year, sending him into the arms of the Imperial Navy rather than trying to face scholastic endeavour again...

I have no intention of going into the various dialects that are sure to spring up on the thousands of islands. That would hurt so very, very much. The Imperial Navy and several branches of the Imperial bureaucracy (the Maritime Inspection Service, the Quarantine Fleet, things like that) make damn sure everyone speaks Cantonese as well as their own dialect, and that usually keeps Chang'an happy. That, and writing; the characters are the same every-bloody-where, except for Sanxing Province where they still have a little bit of their ancient bronze-smithing script.

Okay, yeah, it's not the same as making up a fantasy world from scratch, but I like to think I at least recognised the perils of language suckitude for the character I spoke of. It really is a lovely, helpful rant...

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One possible logical solution
[info]temima
2004-03-12 08:27 pm UTC (link)
"Characters in fantasy with linguistic problems either live in worlds which apparently have some secret means of global communication, always meet with one person who can speak their language, or manage to miraculously learn the new tongue in a matter of days or weeks. "

What about lingua fracas or pidgins? Of course, at the earliest stage, they tend to just tell people 'buy this' or 'I'm selling this' but it is an attempt to communicate with many different groups with many different languages. I imagine they are much more succient than your average 'global communication' in fantasy novels (no poetic prophecies everyone can understand, we got apples to sell).

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[info]farmercuerden
2005-01-12 02:25 pm UTC (link)
...I've never quite understood why a fantasy story must span across five continents. After all, Beowulf takes place in two or three small areas, seperated by maybe 300 miles, maximum. The Volsung saga needs an area smaller than Germany (or Scandinavia - choose your preferred version). The 12 labours of Hercules take place more or less in the mediterranean basin. The Oddysey? Entirely within the area bound by modern Greece and Turkey.

...Admittedly, I may be misremembering the exact spans, but they aren't much larger. I'd rather see a few smaller cultures dealt with in depth than the standard wandering hero of modern fantasy who seems to briefly hit the same dozen clichéd types of cultures on his grand quest.

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[info]archangelbeth
2005-02-01 12:04 am UTC (link)
Just once I would like to see a hero who has to read the answer in some ancient book take a moment to wonder about its accuracy.

I believe Barbara Hambly's Dragonslayer has some of that. The fellow pores over scraps and tries to piece working answers together.

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[info]kag_kins
2005-06-22 02:44 am UTC (link)
Love point five. My world has a Common Tongue, but it was developed by several kings/emperors/ambassadors to ease politics. It's only about two hundred years old, and mostly only nobles/royals know it, and not all of them.

I always found it rather strange when there was a 'naturally developed' Common Tongue where the speakers were hundreds of miles/leagues/kilometers/what-have-you apart.

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As I wander in, late to the party
[info]delurker
2005-07-28 01:14 pm UTC (link)
Remember that linguistic facility declines with age.
Apparently there is some debate over this - some people think that if you start learning another language after six, you're not going to achieve true fluency; while others think early puberty is the best time to start, because you have some idea how language works and increased drive to learn. (As far as I understand it, anyway. And probably I've missed something out.) And then you have a host of other factors, such as the learner's motivation, their degree of contact with the other language, their general ability (some people are just freakishly good at languages) and a host of other variables.
Also, being older can mean that you initially pick the language up faster than younger learners.
Really, you should show a variation in profficiency. But I'm not too fussed about it, because I figure it's hard to get it all correct in your fiction while still keeping the story going and everyone interested. ('Why can't she stop conjugating her verbs and just do something!' etc.)


I have another peeve about language, though: just once, I'd like to see someone partially speaking a language and picking up the general drift of the conversation, but no more. People tend to be fluent or woeful. Where are all the intermediate speakers?

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[info]ravencorbie
2005-10-14 06:53 am UTC (link)
Thank you so much! I started out creating languages well before I learned that Tolkien had done so, and detest bad languages.

Still, I have a few disagreements:

1. English-dependent puns can be a way to translate language-X-dependent puns in regular prose to avoid long sentences in language-X that then need to be glossed in some way. If you have a punner in your character group, why not let them pun?

2. The age thing: people can learn languages if they are forced to do so. Yes, you don't go from being woeful to fluent in a few days as someone else wrote, but you can learn. I know this because when I went to France, I already knew the language well, and did not improve much, other than in fluidity and general cultural/conversational skills. However, there were people my age (in 20s) who started with knowing nothing, and by the end, they could speak quite well.

3. Apostrophes: I use them frequently when transliterating Russian soft consonants, and I've heard they're often also used for glottal stops. For fantasy, I can understand the latter, since we *do* use glottal stops in English, and with enough explanation, it would allow for those names to be pronounceable to people who don't know other languages. On the other hand, when they indicate a sound that we can't really imagine in our heads, it's very annoying.

And one thing I'd like to add to your list of rants:
Pseudo-languages that are just a list of weird-looking, weird-sounding vocabulary words. Either simply make references to the fact that the language isn't English, or create a real language. With rules. You don't have to show me your rules, but chances are, different parts of speech will look differently in some ways.

And, mind if I friend you? I've been reading through your rants, since they've been linked over at the NaNoWriMo forums, and they're wonderful!

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[info]vayra
2005-10-28 03:49 am UTC (link)
Okay, I'm kind of wondering about the acceptability of one of the names I'm using-Thali'i.

She's an elf. The elves in my book have split-she's part of the non-magic section. Their language seems to be a sort of variant on Hawaiian. Thali'i is pronounced Thalee E. Is that obvious, or annoying?

Also, the language as mind barrier thing-I think that mainly applies to cases where people are trying to make the person a stereotype through their speech. I would say that it won't affect all people-but at least the people who have been very limited to that society.

I love these rants-may I friend you?

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Interesting
[info]rebi
2006-01-09 02:08 am UTC (link)
I like this one. Your comment about how that one language spreading across the continents and the only difference between them after thousands of years catched my eye. I suppose some authors forget the difference between American English and British English, or even Scottish English and Brittish English. Each has their own slang as a country, and then slang is divided into districts. Some has excepted grammar, expressions unique to themselves, etc.. In the US alone, each State has it's own jargon. Just look at how many names a submarine sandwich has (in Florida we call them subs, but now I live in NJ, and I have to say "hoagie" otherwise the locals don't know what I'm talking about).

I do want to bring attention to one particular exception to the "unable to learn a language in a short time" rule.

During WW2, a Jewish family sent their son to England to escape. The boy could only speak German, so the family he was staying with hired a German Jew living in their neighborhood to teach the boy English. The boy was terrified of the man, and he learned as much English as he could so that he wouldn't have go back to the man. After a course of maybe two weeks, he wrote home to his parents saying that he had learned English and could not speak German. I know, I know. He wasn't bilingual (or tri-quad-lingual) like fantasy characters are, but it still isn't completely impossible.

I do like your points. You've heard this a lot, but you have helped me with my own book. I was reading your rant about fantasy teenagers, and I looked over my book to make sure my heroine wasn't angsting more than her circumstance required of her. So thank-you for your advice and help.

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[info]laraqua
2006-02-18 02:49 pm UTC (link)
I don't agree with gibberish-names being bad. H.P. Lovecraft did it awesomely for a sense of the loathsome and the alien. I think it works if the name itself is blasphemous, rarely said and contains a lot of power. I think if it's just the name of an enemy wizard or the corner shop foreignor, than it's very bad. What are your thoughts, limyaael and Co.?

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[info]flippyfrog
2006-03-25 07:43 am UTC (link)
Oh thank god! You agree with the names! So many times i've had to groan and hide my head when people think to make up names. Or do things like name their character Wendi. Would it hurt to have the "y"? seriously, would it hurt??? Or then throwing random letters together to get names they hope sound good. Or placing an Islander name with a Celtic name and not explaining it. Drives me bonkers. And so many times people ask me what's so wrong with it, and they never seem to understand that it just seems to make your piece sound stupid. There are so many names out there that sound beautiful that have plenty of meanings, and yet they feel they need to make up their own...

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[info]mithrel
2006-07-20 04:12 am UTC (link)
Hooboy this rant is great. I idolize Tolkien, and actually majored in Linguistics because of this. And I agree with all your points, mostly, but here's more detailed opinions.

1. I agree with the capital letters, and also with the apostrophes, with one exception, which is when it is used as a glottal stop. Most people don't know what a "glottal stop" is. It's the sound substituted for "t" in the Cockney English pronunciation of "butter" or "bottle" so they are something like "bu-er" or "bo-ul," the sound in the middle of "uh-uh" If they are not overused (for example, in the Tayledras/Shin'a'in culture of Mercedes Lackey's Valdemar novels, because the glottal stop is part of their language, and confined to one culture.

2. All languages have things called "phonotactic constraints," which are unique to each language, and even to the same languages at different times. For example "ng" can't begin a word in English, but in Cambodian it is acceptable. However, there are universal rules of phonics across the board. One is that every syllable must have a vowel or semivowel. There are also certain strings of consonants, such as "cgsf" that are simply unpronouncable. But even if "human can't pronounce it" some authors still use this. It's fine if they mention they have an unpronouncable name and take on an alias, but trying to call them by the unpronouncable name is ridiculous, and gives people a headache.

3. Whoa, I've never heard of the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis, at least not as such, although I do agree with Foucault's "prison of language" theory, that once we learn language we structure our thoughts using that language, signifiers and signifieds, words as symbols. I do agree, though, that language is not inherently evil r good.

4. It takes any language, constructed or not, time to spread. Most construcyed languages never gain the status of "natural" languages, in that people speak them natively; Esperanto didn't. Contact languages, that developed from pidgins and creoles, are different; they arise out of contact between people with no common language; for example, African slaves on the voyage to the colonies.

5. THANK YOU FOR THIS!!! Leaving aside such things as the Mud People *shudder,* language differences are so common that people from one coast of a country can't understand the dialects of people from another coast.

6. That's only assuming you follow Chomski's critical age hypothesis, which I do, although I find it depressing, since it means I'll never be fluent in any number of languages I want to learn.

7. England didn't have widely spread literacy, or even a standardized language until Caxton invented the printing press in 1476. In medieval times, only priests and scribes were literate; even the nobility often were not literate. Why would a medieval era world therefore (as most fantasy worlds are) have widespread literacy?

8. I agree with the English dependant puns, with one exception; the Myth series, by Robert Asprin. The ones making English puns are demons, (or dimension travelers) so presumably they've been to Earth. It is interesting, not to mention amusig, when someone makes a pun, and the other characters are scratching their heads, to the joker's exasperation.

9. As to names, I agree with the consistency. Iusually use either invented names, or extremely rare real names.

Talking about the intermediate learners, and how it's impossible to learn a language in a few months, Mercedes Lackey makes this error in Valdemar, when Elspeth lives with the Tayledras, and picks up their language. Immersion only goes so far.

Tolkien brings up the point of mutual intelligibility over time in "The Lord of the Rings" when Merry first hears Rohirric. The hobbits originally came from that region, but he stillcould not understand them. I forget the exat quote, but it was something like "there were many familiar words, but he could not string them together into sentences." Does anyone know what the exact quote is?

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[info]te_non_sum
2006-08-05 04:09 pm UTC (link)
Mercedes Lackey makes this error in Valdemar, when Elspeth lives with the Tayledras, and picks up their language. Immersion only goes so far.

To be fair, magic and telepathy help. ;) It's not a fair case to cry, "You can't learn a language that quickly!" It's not quite the dyheli-induced instant fluency of the Owl trilogy, but it still helps.

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Thank You!!
[info]elfire
2006-09-21 04:39 am UTC (link)
Thank you.

I just wanted to say that. My room mate has been goading me about the book I've finally decided to write. My idea is based off an e-mail role play I did with a friend at work one day. My idea is under developed still, but after reading your rants that I found the links to on the http://www.nanowrimo.org/ website, I think I might be able to finally finish this time with out pulling hair/breaking keyboards/killing my room mates. Both of the men I live with are incredibly well read, and I discussed my magic system that I had planned with them one night, and surprisingly, they gave me the same ground rules that you have laid out in a different rant as well. Language was another problem that has kept me from writing past page 3. I didn't want to go with the standard "Common Tongue" or "Old Tongue". I've been working quietly with my old tenth grade English book, and a Japanese dictionary trying to find a mesh of the two that makes SOME sense.

World Building is more difficult that what I gave thought to, but yes, thank you again! I hope you don't mind my horrible grammar, spelling (I think I checked it all), and me adding you to my favorites. I plan to use these rants as a good "rule book" to make a (hopefully) loophole-free fantasy.

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[info]triad_serpent
2007-01-20 06:26 pm UTC (link)
*squees* Oh, foreign tongues!!

(Again, posting this at two AM, so be gentle...)

In my current WiP I have two "main" languages that I'm using. One is really their version of Gaelic or Latin, or some such. No one much uses it anymore, except for scholars and the like. Now, the days that this "Old Tongue" (I haven't gotten around to giving it an actual name yet...shame on me) was used for day-to-day conversation is over four thousand years before my story takes place. It's now only used for spell casting, rituals, etc. I've been basing it (pronunciation-wise) on Gaelic, and (tones) Mandarin Chinese. And odd combination, but...whatever. It's only obvious in certain cases where I've left the "root word" all but un-touched.

Where was I going with this...?

Oh. Dur. So, yes, you mentioned apostrophes and capital letters in the middle of words, but you said not a word about accent marks. Due to "my" language being tonal, I'm all but forced to use them. The tone changes the meaning, though I've tried to have the root sounds connected. Finger sounds a lot like hand, which sounds a lot like arm, etc. It seemed more logical that way.

...of course, this is only my second time ever attempting to develop a language...lol. The first time was when I was thirteen, I think. I'm seventeen now, and I've studied MANY language since then, though I'm still only fluent in English. What are your suggestions on developing a believable grammar? That's always been my least favorite part of any language... I'm leaning towards Asian languages, myself, because I tend to understand them better than European. Particles make sense to me (no and de, Japanese and Chinese possessive particles, yay!). ^^

...I need a life... *wanders off to play with Latin again*

(Reply to this)


[info]ainu_laire
2007-05-17 03:51 am UTC (link)
Tolkien is love. He instilled my interest in linguistics, too. This was truly an excellent article- if only people had as much common sense as yourself. I love your points on people actually being literate and the issue of how common books are in these fantasy tales.

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[info]rizny_writing
2007-07-22 05:26 am UTC (link)
8) Please, no English-dependent puns. I've seen this ruin a few otherwise good books. Unless your book is specifically set on modern Earth or is historical fantasy, it's a good bet that your characters aren't speaking English. Trying to have them solve riddles or crack jokes where the answer depends on the English word- or worse, the actual spelling of the English word- sends me into convulsions. It also destroys the carefully built-up suspension of disbelief (assuming the author has managed this).

One name: Piers Anthony.

Otherwise...I love your rants! I'm going to have to go through them all, they're very helpful from what I've seen. Hope you don't mind if I friend you.

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[info]unhtaa_kissa
2007-12-26 11:10 pm UTC (link)
I love you. You have destroyed Orwell for me. Thank you. I read 1984 and hated it because I saw no way out and no reason why it couldn't happen here. Just knowing that it would fail is making me happy.

I think Mercedes Lackey solved the problem of illiterate people nicely (at least in Valdemar). Mandatory lessons for all children, ordered by the Queen, who forced the nobles to agree by stating that an educated populace is less easy to frighten (and panic mindlessly) than an educated one.

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[info]teithiwr
2008-10-27 01:19 pm UTC (link)
I know this comes years after the initial post, but I was linked to this and just have to express my thanks. As a student of linguistics, it drives me up the wall how inanely people treat matters of language in fantasy. THANK YOU for this rant!

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[info]monkeyvrobot
2009-07-03 04:59 pm UTC (link)
I know I'm really late to the party here, but I had to add my own comment about how much I hate #8. Something that really bugs me is when the "ancient prophecy" somehow forms rhyming couplets when it's translated into English.

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