Limyaael ([info]limyaael) wrote,
@ 2003-12-18 10:51:00
Previous Entry  Add to memories!  Tell a Friend!  Next Entry
Current mood: bitchy
Entry tags:fantasy rants: winter 2003, stupid clichés rants, world-building: metaphysics

My most hated fantasy ideas.
Yes, the genre wouldn't be what it is without them, but they are so easy to misuse. And I hate them.



No trying to be objective about this. I'm still going to try to suggest fixes for the problems I see with these, but I wish they would go away far more than I wish that people would just use them better.

Oh, well.

1) For the love of whatever deity you believe in, make your prophecy short, obscure, and not automatically pointing out the hero. To return to the Bad Example Book of the moment, The Wayfarer Redemption: Here we have a prophecy that tells us exactly who to cheer for, reveals many key events, and goes on for a page and a freaking half.

No no no.

Your heroes should have something that makes them cheer-worthy outside being Chosen (see below). Having a long and clear prophecy destroys all the suspense, since rare indeed are the authors who introduce the idea that destiny could be wrong. Most of all, I feel when I read a prophecy like this that I'm being forced into agreeing that of course everything in the prophecy needs to happen, when I'm much happier figuring that out on my own.

Nothing like a prophecy to try and excuse lazy plotting and bad coincidences (oh boy, am I ever talking to you, Robert Jordan and Terry Goodkind).

2) Make your heroes heroes because they are, not because destiny says so. Another Bad Example Book: Anne Bishop's Black Jewels Trilogy. Long before the savior, Jaenelle, does anything heroic, the other characters are mooning over her because she's the Chosen One, Witch.

If you listen hard enough, you can hear me screaming.

I don't want to be told that I should cheer for someone just because a crappy piece of poetry recited a few hundred years ago refers to her. I don't like being told that of course this twelve-year-old would make the best queen, just because she has the right blood flowing in her veins and the right set of genitals and destiny hanging all over her.

In other words: Show us characters who could reasonably assume the throne even if destriny wasn't present. If others stare at them in stricken awe just because of the prophecy, you're trying to use destiny to excuse character development again.

3) Consider what the consequences of the prophecy say about destiny's philosophy. Yet Another Bad Example Book: Lynn Flewelling's The Bone Doll's Twin. The land has suffered under a mad queen, and when she dies, it suffers again even though her son is sane, becuase only a woman can inherit the throne.

So having a woman on the throne is more important than having a sane ruler, even if he's male? What a nice philosophy. That book frustrated the shit out of me because of the characters nodding and mouthing about prophecies, and caring for the hidden monarch, Tobin, to the point of being willing to create a sacrificial lamb just so she wouldn't be lonely, the poor widdle thing.

If nobody matters next to your monarch...

If it's somehow all right that everyone suffers for generations until the 'right' person comes along...

If otherwise good rulers are disqualified just because they don't have the right blood or the right crappy piece of poetry...

Think what that says about Destiny. The forces of good are going to come off looking sadistic. "Suffering is fine, as long as The Prophecy is fulfilled!"

Pardon me while I cheer for the bad guys, who are at least fighting this sadistic force.

4) Don't automatically punish the irreverent characters. So many times, those who scoff at prophecies in fantasy are shown as being simply stupid, which is stupid in and of itself. Who in the world would have a reason to believe this old man and teenager turning up on their doorstep and claiming to be the saviors of the world? A little doubt is at least normal.

But most characters are never allowed that doubt. The old man or woman shuts them up immediately, and the child proceeds to be "special" in some stupid way, and the doubting character is silenced.

To turn to a Good Example: Storm Constantine's Sea Dragon Heir, which I'm reading at the moment, has the main character being amused when she first learns of her hidden heritage, and thinking all these piously mouthing women are a bit weird. She does change her mind, but she was allowed that moment of doubt, and she is also allowed to touch the Not Nice side of the powers her people once worshipped, which makes this book so different from any others I've read recently that you could listen hard and hear my shrieks of relief.

5) No royal heirs raised as peasants. This is the plotline I hate most in all the world. It should be tied out in the desert, covered with honey, and left for ants to find.

How do I hate it? Let me count the ways:

a) Used by every author from here to beyond, and I think I've read only two books that convinced me it could work.

b) It insinuates that no one of peasant stock could actually do things on his or her own, that the royal blood is the "reason" for the heroic deeds. Way to turn back the clock and clout down independence.

c) How in the world would someone who had grown up in a sheltered village all her life be prepared for the complexities of politics and ruling a nation? Usually, the fantasy journey is supposed to teach her that, but I have yet to see a fantasy journey that does. It's all about "growing inside yourself" and "fleeing from enemies" and "finding the Quest Object."

Excuse me, but how do any of those make a good monarch?

d) It's used as an excuse for angst. "Waaah! I am adopted! Waaah! I am deprived of my heritage! Waaah! How evil the usurper is..."

And then Limyaael smothers the whiny royal heir with a blanket.

e) It makes the evil people look damned incompetent. What, they managed to kill all the other members of the royal line but somehow missed this one?

I want this plotline dead, dead, dead. Stupid-ass thing.

6) Consider having something go wrong. Another problem with the destiny plotline, especially in amateur fantasy fiction, is how few losses the destined character actually suffers. Yes, she could have her magic go out of control or her family die, but have you noticed how rarely that actually happens? Her family turns out to be alive, she gets the training in time to control her magic, and she takes the throne, la-da-dee-dee-DIE-DIE.

Some authors go the other way (Lynn Flewelling, again), and have EVERYTHING bad happen to the destined character. This makes the character look passive, and smacks of author manipulation. "But, oh look, she suffers! You must feel sorry for her now!"

Sorry, I don't. I just want to smack the whiner and tell her to grow up and get a life.

As always, if you must use destiny, try to avoid the extremes. The character shouldn't have a charmed life, but neither should she sit around uselessly and get angst dumped on her.



There's a reason that in the parodic fantasy series I write, prophecies are completely wrong a lot of the time, whiny royal heirs are seen as the young stupid people they are, and Destiny is a moronic force most of the time.

Hate these clichés. Hate them.




Page 1 of 2
<<[1] [2] >>

(Post a new comment)


[info]chisotahn
2003-12-18 04:58 pm UTC (link)
The second novel idea I ever concieved involved a very, very pissy wind elemental getting tangled up in the web of a prophecy, and being extremely pissed about it. Especially since the power of the prophecy forced her to take human form. Pure hell to a creature born of the wind that never stops flying...

Man, she was actually a pretty cool character to begin with.

(Reply to this)


[info]gehayi
2003-12-18 04:59 pm UTC (link)
Yes! Yes! Yes! I've been saying these things for YEARS! Thank you!

(Reply to this)


[info]kutsuwamushi
2003-12-18 05:13 pm UTC (link)
I try to steer clear of prophecy in all of my stories. I may have the characters believe in a prophecy, but that doesn't mean that it's any more reliable than Nostradamus's fuzziest lines.

(Reply to this)


[info]illandaria
2003-12-18 05:21 pm UTC (link)
And here you've touched on the thing I hated about the ending to Memory, Sorrow and Thorn. There was all this really good story, in which the cliches were handled creatively, and then, bam, stereotypical ending. :P

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]limyaael
2003-12-18 08:54 pm UTC (link)
That's one of the ones where I actually didn't mind as much, because of the prophecy that was never fulfilled during the book and the fact that the "rightful" ruler turned out not to be so rightful after all. But yeah, I was kind of disappointed that it had to turn out that way.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]childofatlantis
2003-12-18 05:37 pm UTC (link)
Regards to 6)... have you read a book by one Chris Wooding, called "The Weavers of Saramyr"? I had a lot of criticisms for it - he has that annoying habit of switching POV suddenly in the middle of a scene just so that we can both see how the viewpoint character is agonising AND have someone else thinking about how beautiful she looks WHILE she's agonising - but what struck me was that he was willing to do things a bit _differently_. The heroine's power _does_ get out of control, several times, because she refuses to go with the people who keep babbling about how special she is. And people die because of it. The relationships are somewhat more interesting than usual, including the beginnings of one between the main female lead and another woman. And he's surprisingly unsqueamish about killing people off.

Plus, it has (what seems to me) a Japanese-influenced language and cultural structure, which he manages to convey rather nicely, to do with status and so on... At any rate, he's someone who I'm keeping an eye out for, as I think subsequent books in the series could iron out the issues I had with his narrative, and there are some really neat ideas in there.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]limyaael
2003-12-18 08:54 pm UTC (link)
I haven't heard of it, but it's something to check out. Thank you for the recommendation.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]otakukeith
2003-12-18 06:20 pm UTC (link)
This is one thing I think Robert Jordan actually does quite well. Sure, there are umpteen prophecies pointing to Rand...but not everyone automatically believes he's the Dragon Reborn, including people who are not necessarily pure evil (indeed, the evil people are pretty certain that he is). And a lot of people realistically go "so you're the world's chosen defender...what's in it for me?". Not to mention the fact that most people think the Dragon Reborn is a scary evil destructive thing.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]limyaael
2003-12-18 08:56 pm UTC (link)
All the prophecies point to Rand, though; there's never a chance mentioned that he could be a false Dragon. And the people who oppose him or are pragmatic about it are shown as wrong, wrong, wrong, and they must be humbled.

Ultimately, though, what drives me nuts about Jordan is fate, more than prophecies. It got so that I was muttering to myself whenever someone said, "The Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills." I got very strange looks. :)

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

BbHtrYoink - (Anonymous), 2003-12-18 10:57 pm UTC
Re: BbHtrYoink - [info]limyaael, 2003-12-19 02:44 pm UTC
Re: BbHtrYoink - [info]cimadness, 2005-05-22 04:09 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]nobodys_grrl, 2003-12-19 12:24 pm UTC

[info]amurderofcrows
2003-12-18 06:27 pm UTC (link)
So along that lines, how do you feel not about prophecy, but about curses and other fine fantasy tradition? (Family curse, etc, attatched to bloodline, family, order, land, whatthefuckever). That one plays a large part in my current work -- to the point that the protagonist said, "Well, gee. I'm half-blooded, I can't take on the family AGONY. Think I'll go run for my LIFE now. Thank you, dad, for not being human!" :D

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]limyaael
2003-12-18 08:58 pm UTC (link)
That sounds neat. *grin* I like curses better if there's some reason that no one has ever tried to break them before or couldn't break them before. I've read a few fantasies where families suffered under horrible curses, and I sat there and said, "And why did none of these idiot ancestors ever try to break the curse? Why just dump it on this granddaughter/grandson?"

It goes back to the same reason that the prophecy/curse/whatever is in the story, I think. If it's just arranged to make the character look cool, I don't like it.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]amurderofcrows, 2003-12-18 09:05 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]farmercuerden, 2005-01-12 01:05 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]amurderofcrows, 2005-01-12 01:26 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ladyvyola, 2003-12-31 08:27 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2004-01-01 01:28 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]tavalya_ra, 2003-12-31 08:28 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]amurderofcrows, 2003-12-31 08:32 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]tavalya_ra, 2003-12-31 10:40 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]amurderofcrows, 2004-01-01 10:38 am UTC

[info]camwyn
2003-12-18 06:54 pm UTC (link)
One of the things I've been trying to do with the RPG setting I'm currently working on (an alternate version of China and several other Asiatic societies) is demonstrate a couple of these very points. There's been a prophecy banging around the Empire for the last thousand years or so, maybe more, regarding the Eighth Son of Heaven- that is to say, the eighth man chosen by signs from the Gods to sit on the Dragon Throne, as opposed to all the other officeholders who took the spot in between the chosen rulers. Everyone was holding their breath in anticipation as the signs started coming in for #8, and the priests found him and were bringing him to the capital city to be installed...

... at which point a Category 5 hurricane blew up out of nowhere and drowned the sonofabitch, leaving the prophecy snapped, the Empire in collective hysterics, and every last divine voice, sign, or omen completely silent and useless.

Been considering doing this up as fiction, too, but that would rely on collaboration with a friend who created this world to begin with (I've only got permission to work on the Asian side of things) and she's not ready to do that yet. But as far as I'm concerned, the key point in my part of the world is: prophecies suck, because people who believe in them don't have a contingency plan for what happens if they snap.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]limyaael
2003-12-18 09:01 pm UTC (link)
I love stories like that.

Of course, in most fantasy stories it would never happen, because it's blasphemy for prophecies to snap. Or something. *sigh*

(Reply to this) (Parent)

BbHtrYoink
(Anonymous)
2003-12-18 11:11 pm UTC (link)
What about two (or more) prophesies that flatly contradict eachother? For instance, one goes the traditional angsty-hero way (full of hardships and and eventual success in the end). Another (from the antagonist's prophesy-person) agrees about the the protagonist will suffer, but eventually lose out in the end. A third says that, due to blasphmy, the protagonist will be struck down by lightning and burn in hell. Another says he is actually the father of the future hero, and therefore his life is unimportant. And, just for the hell of it, the protagonist passes an old woman on the road who goes into glazed-eye-prophesy-mode and mumbles something about turning into a goat.

Note that the protagonist would have a real hard time fulfilling all of these prophesies. =)

I don't know if I actually want to put this in my story, since I'm not sure if I could fit it in, but I might. And if anyone who reads this would like to steal the idea, go ahead! (And I would like to read your story when your done =) )

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: BbHtrYoink
[info]selahstar
2003-12-19 07:30 am UTC (link)
Wow, that's a cool idea. It might actually fit in with a parody I'm writing. I'll have to see. And sure, I can share once it's done.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Re: BbHtrYoink - [info]limyaael, 2003-12-19 02:46 pm UTC
Re: BbHtrYoink - [info]reinderrocr, 2005-01-20 11:56 am UTC
Re: BbHtrYoink - [info]archangelbeth, 2005-02-01 01:43 am UTC

[info]johnnymcbadass
2003-12-19 08:18 am UTC (link)
You mention writing a parodical series. Where is it, what is it? I want to find it!

I agree with all your points, except that I like Lynn Flewelling, heh.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]limyaael
2003-12-19 02:49 pm UTC (link)
They're two series, both online and both complete. Royalty of Wind, and Fire, and Clay is the first book in a trilogy that I wrote specifically to mock a lot of the things I've complained about here (prophecies, stupid royal heirs, warm fuzzy earth goddess religion, and so on). Prophecy of Four Royals With One Mistake is the first in a series of five books specifically about the royal-heirs-kicked-out-and-going-on-quests-to-win-their-thrones-back plotline, and mocking it.

Enjoy!

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: - [info]nextian, 2004-02-12 02:43 am UTC
Re: - [info]limyaael, 2004-02-12 03:02 am UTC
Re: - [info]nextian, 2004-02-12 04:47 am UTC

[info]nichol_storm
2003-12-19 10:14 am UTC (link)
Limyaael: For the love of whatever deity you believe in, make your prophecy short, obscure, and not automatically pointing out the hero.

One of the most blatant and ridiculous instances of this I've ever seen was actually in a professional novel: "The First Man in Rome" by Colleen McCullough, she of "Thornbirds" fame. She's written a whole series following it based on ancient Rome. McCullough is such a Julius Caesar fangirl it's embarrassing, and she makes every effort to turn him into this flawless hero, which is about the farthest thing imaginable from the historical person.

Okay, in "First Man", Gaius Marius marries Julia, an aunt of Caesar (who hasn't been born yet). Then Marius learns of a prophecy that says that his wife's nephew will be far greater than him. Gee, thanks McCullough, for leaving absolutely no doubt as to who will fulfill *that* gem of a prophecy. It's not even historical -- she completely pulls it out of her as- er, hat.

The sad thing is that the series is really very good until Caesar takes over. The early books centering around Marius and Sulla should become classics, and Sulla is an incredible character -- gorgeous, charismatic, intelligent, sympathetic, psychotic. He's fascinating in a way Caesar never becomes, because McCullough won't allow Caesar any flaws in her novels, therefore denying him the sort of character development Sulla goes through. Caesar reads like a shallow romance novel hero, while Sulla has a depth and a tragedy to him that's truly awe-inspiring.

After Sulla dies the series goes downhill *hard*. Flawless God Caesar becomes the main character, joined by Playboy Mark Antony and Thinly-Sketched Octavian. *sigh*

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]limyaael
2003-12-19 02:50 pm UTC (link)
Ugh. Thanks for the warning. I've had her recommended to me as an author, but I'll be sure to stick with the earlier books. I hate flawless characters.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]nichol_storm, 2003-12-20 01:09 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2003-12-21 05:54 pm UTC

[info]nobodys_grrl
2003-12-19 12:32 pm UTC (link)
Once again I see something I so nearly did. In fact, not only did I almost write a hugely horrible prophecy, but I almost included it in the prologue.

Before I realised that in doing that I would give away everything in the whole damn story before it had even begun. And it's one of those things that drive me mad - so often amateur writers write some prophecy about a hero. And then they go introduce a character who you know is the one the prophecy is about, so there are no surprises or developments...
That's actually one of the better things about Jordan - at least Rand had a long way to go before the prophecy was all about him, and it wasn't exactly a pleasant surprise for him or his friends.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]limyaael
2003-12-19 02:51 pm UTC (link)
Glad you caught that! I can think of several professional authors who didn't.

And I suppose I would like Rand and his prophecies better if I found Rand himself a likeable character. I don't, really, and that's part of the problem.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]nobodys_grrl, 2003-12-20 03:21 pm UTC

[info]marumae
2003-12-19 06:01 pm UTC (link)
Yes, the genre wouldn't be what it is without them, but they are so easy to misuse. And I hate them.

Uhg Prophecies, LOATHE. HATE. I have yet to see a story where I find them believeable and enjoyable.

The Wayfarer Redemption: Here we have a prophecy that tells us exactly who to cheer for, reveals many key events, and goes on for a page and a freaking half.

*SNORT* sad this is I actually LIKED the Wayfarer Redemption, it's the sorry excuse for a sequel (s) and abrupt turn from what I thought was a remarkably well written fantasty to a sudden main character change romanctic angsty romp with what is so obiviously a self insert mary sue character I GRRR that book really pissed me off...when I look back on it now I cringe but yes, Sara Douglass has a long way to go before she moves beyond Elizabeth Haydon, "Well designed world, poor characters" fantasy fame. Is it any surprise she first tried to be a romance author?

Make your heroes heroes because they are, not because destiny says so.

SO SO right here Limyaael, I completely agree. I can't count the number of times it was thrust in my face I'm supposed to sympathsize with the factory stock fantasy moron hero just because some thousand year old, cheesy poem says I'm supposed to.

"Suffering is fine, as long as The Prophecy is fulfilled!"

Now I think your onto something, that phrase can be turned around to show just how much of a cop out destiny and prophecy are and how they aren't the blessed things we in fantasy are supposed to believe...hmm *idea-idea*

Storm Constantine's Sea Dragon Heir

Now I tried reading that ages ago, besides my former lack of patience for massively long books I always found Incest squicky until recently I found myself tolerating it for story purposes alone. I say if it's valid to the plot...SOMEHOW then I can deal otherwise...nooo X_X;; so I might just pick that up again because supposidly the story itself is good.


b) It insinuates that no one of peasant stock could actually do things on his or her own, that the royal blood is the "reason" for the heroic deeds.

Where do people the idea that just because you are royalty you are automatically a hero? Have they taken a good look at our worlds royalty? Even the Windsors? History says the opposite..

No royal heirs raised as peasants.

Exactly, let me count how many ways this is a poor plot move.

#1.) Have we convientely forgotten what kind of life pesants lead in the middle/dark ages? Have we forgotten that most often worked themselves to death, often grew very very ill with disabilities as a result if they survived because of the infection caused by the lack of clean medical treatment? Would you want your child to grow up in this??

#2.) That I'm quite sure unless they lived out in happy sunshine kingdom in the middle of the freaking ocean away from everyone it's more likely that the royal heir if they had to leave would probably go to a godfathering noble family to be raised to be prepared for their royal station or that they would be sent off to an exiled fortress where they would assuridly be safe and raised in the proper conditons that a royal family should.

It's just unbelieavable that any royal family would wish that princess Rowan Adella Jade Belle Sakura Harmony of the Sunshine Royal family would be sent to live with Bob the Blacksmith in the worst part of town...

Sorry got carried away this is a hated part of fantasy for me XX;


As always, if you must use destiny, try to avoid the extremes. The character shouldn't have a charmed life, but neither should she sit around uselessly and get angst dumped on her.


I have a tendency to sympathize with extreme suffering characters but only if that suffering is believeable, not that fate hates said protagonist with a passion from hades and wishes to make them SUFFER!!!11!!!@1

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]limyaael
2003-12-19 06:20 pm UTC (link)
Well, I do like Martin's prophecies- but that might be because they're so vague that it's really hard to tell what they refer to. And they are the Prophecies of DOOM, not happy-happy-joy-joy, so that's all right.

Storm Constantine's Sea Dragon Heir

Now I tried reading that ages ago, besides my former lack of patience for massively long books I always found Incest squicky until recently I found myself tolerating it for story purposes alone. I say if it's valid to the plot...SOMEHOW then I can deal otherwise...nooo X_X;; so I might just pick that up again because supposidly the story itself is good.


Yeah, I know the incest puts some people of, but I don't really mind it. I'm just fascinated by the character of Pharinet and how real she seems. I don't entirely get her love for Valraven, since he seems like a vague character, but then most of the other characters do next to Pharinet. And for the sake of a heroine who's really, really alive, I would be prepared to ignore a lot.

Where do people the idea that just because you are royalty you are automatically a hero? Have they taken a good look at our worlds royalty? Even the Windsors? History says the opposite..

I think that has to be the fairy tale part of fantasy's heritage. There, the hidden scullery maids or what-not turn out to be beautiful and kind (like "Cinderella"), and the royalty they marry is always good and kind too.

Good points on why you should never leave your heirs to be raised with peasants.

I have a tendency to sympathize with extreme suffering characters but only if that suffering is believeable, not that fate hates said protagonist with a passion from hades and wishes to make them SUFFER!!!11!!!@1

That was what bothered me about The Bone Doll's Twin. The main character, Tobin, just suffered and suffered and suffered. And even though the "good" people had a large hand in that suffering, it was all excused under the need to hide everything from the evil king, so really, it was his fault.

I hate characters who don't take responsibility for their actions.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]amurderofcrows, 2003-12-31 08:42 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2004-01-01 01:30 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]amurderofcrows, 2004-01-01 10:39 am UTC

(Anonymous)
2003-12-20 12:56 am UTC (link)
d) It's used as an excuse for angst. "Waaah! I am adopted! Waaah! I am deprived of my heritage! Waaah! How evil the usurper is..."

As an adoptee, I have a personal vengeance against this plotline. I wish people would realize that the only real difference between an adopted and a biological family is blood.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]limyaael
2003-12-21 12:43 am UTC (link)
I know what you mean. I'm not adopted, but it drove me nuts that all the stories I read about adopted characters from a young age on showed the adopted character giving up everything to go live with the birth parents whom they didn't really know.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]jacay
2003-12-20 11:22 pm UTC (link)
Okay. I agree with you on most of those points, but a few hit very close to home, so I just thought I should bring something up...

What if there is a prophecy surrounding the main character that says that the MC is going to die, and then she goes off and defies the prophecy and lives? Because that seems to be both good and bad: good because, yippee, there's a prophecy saying the MC will die, but bad because the MC does the impossible and lives anyway. I'm using this in my trilogy, and it becomes pretty important in the second book, because my main character discovers the prophecy--but only at the very last minute does she discover that it's talking about her, and not her general people. It's so very confusing that I would love to go back and get rid of the prophecy all together, but that would get rid of the whole plot, so I can't.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]limyaael
2003-12-21 12:45 am UTC (link)
I think it would be all right as long as you don't make the prophecy unique. If you've established that every single pronouncement made by the sibyls/seers/prophets/equivalents comes true, then this one not coming true smacks of the author intervening to let the character live (a feeling I think sometimes comes from authors liking their characters too much to kill them off). If you introduce some explanation as to why some prophecies don't come true, or why this prophecy is different from all the others, then it could work.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Prophecies
[info]temima
2003-12-31 06:24 pm UTC (link)
Well, it's not fantasy, but I like what Frank Herbert did in the Dune series. Basically, he had the Bene Gesserit go to different worlds and drop prophecies relating to their 'chosen one' as they go about their breeding program. Then they can say, "See! Look! Someone fulfilling prophecy, right here!" Of course, due to factors even they didn't see, their own prophecies bite them on the butt.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Prophecies
[info]limyaael
2004-01-01 01:31 am UTC (link)
Andre Norton and Mercedes Lackey did something similar in The Elvenbane. A prophecy the dragons makes up turns out to be true. I enjoy the twist, but I do wish there were more joke prophecies.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(Reply from suspended user)

[info]limyaael
2004-01-01 01:31 am UTC (link)
I actually admire the way Eddings characterized Garion. It was the other characters that had me groaning out loud, especially the all-powerful sorcerers.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]tavalya_ra
2003-12-31 08:23 pm UTC (link)
I am a writer attempting to create my own fantasy series partially because I feel jaded with that section of the bookstore. I swear that if I find myself writing any of the cliches you mentioned, I will promptly disembowl myself.

(Reply to this)

Prophecies
[info]tavalya_ra
2003-12-31 08:36 pm UTC (link)
I don't like prophecies because I hate the idea that things are fated and that one has no control over destiny. Bad things don't happen because the universe is out to get you- bad things happen because the chain of causality is chugging along and this was the effect of somebody's action. In my own writing, I do have a few prophecies (which I will admit are plot devices- I use them very sparingly) but I have the religion they come from structured in such a way that I can attach the footnote of: "This is what God would like/not like to happen. Try not to use your free will to screw it up."

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Prophecies
[info]limyaael
2004-01-01 01:33 am UTC (link)
I like free will as well, and it troubles me that the idea is so despised in fantasy stories, seemingly. Is it really that much comfort to tell yourself, "I can't have screwed up, it's fate's fault?" It seems to me that it would be too small a comfort next to the price of freedom.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Prophecies - [info]tavalya_ra, 2004-01-01 03:53 pm UTC

[info]emerald_pixy
2004-01-01 01:21 am UTC (link)
I know a friend of mine who is writing a book that has a prophecy central to the plot. It involves these two characters getting together, two halves of one soul, yadda yadda yadda. And it does come true. However, this sets things up for what amounts to a power struggle between several factions who want to use this couple and the power they and their son will supposely hold (and this even leads to a group kidnapping the female half of the pair so they can 'groom' her to perform her part of the prophecy). Not only that. but there's a lot of anger all around between the couple and those around them about said prophecy, especially on the part of the sister of the female half, who has basically had her whole family taken from her because of people so bent on this prophecy coming true. Add in several misinterptations of what all these prophecies and signs and crap actually mean, and I feel that it aviods the worse of the above outlines faults.

Oh, by the way. found my way here from metequotes ;)

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]limyaael
2004-01-01 01:34 am UTC (link)
Welcome :).

That sounds like an interesting plot. I often think the people determined to make prophecies come true could easily be seen as fanatics; it's surprising they so rarely are.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]asciiskull
2005-04-03 07:36 am UTC (link)
Of course you could have several people with verying qualifications all trying to be the Hero Of Destiny(tm), whether or not the prophecy is even true.

"I'm the Chosen One!"
"No, I am!"

(Reply to this)


[info]lil_pink_mew
2005-09-04 08:23 pm UTC (link)
Number five hit pretty close to me, for the main reason that one of my characters is a royal heir raised in a gypsy commune. I'm not real fond of the "royal child sent away to peasant family for OMGPROTECTION," but I've tried very hard to make this believable and not so cliched. I would really appreciate your comment on this, if you can. Concrit is much loved by the me.


Lessee if I can get all the details in... Okay. Ler is this guy who was born to a princess in hiding. She was the first target by this usurper who was trying to kill her, she found out, and ran. I think she was the equivalent of eighteen or so at the time. Being totally oblivious to how life was outside the decadence of the palace, she stopped in a tavern a little ways from the city and got raped out back by a drunk. She got pregnant and had Ler about ten months of running like a maniac later. Usurper never knew she had a child, and shortly after Ler was born, she dropped him at the tent of a gypsy, knowing she couldn't keep him because she would get killed eventually, so she more just wanted to keep from seeing him die than anything else. He never knew anything about his heritage cause Princess-lady never said anything to the gypsy woman that took him in. He had a fairly normal life after that, then went off on his own as a wandering mercenary.


Is that plausible? Less cliched than usual? Bluntness is accepted and encouraged.


...Damn. That got long. Sorry about that. ^^;;

(Reply to this)


[info]measuringlife
2005-09-08 06:04 am UTC (link)
No royal heirs raised as peasants.


I can think of one alternative to this, and that is the bastard child. Maybe not a peasant, but a lesser Lord who didn't live in the complete decadance of the royal family? So the king (or queen, mind you) had a roll in the hay with a lesser lord/lady who presides over a post in a rural area. Maybe a small outpost near the border, a small castle far from the capital.

King/Queen dies with no heirs, no possible other cadidates for a royal line, when going through the things, things it is found out about the affair. Young child who was raised normally as a middle child (No "WAH I'M SO ADOPTED AND UNLOVED teeniebopper angst, please) has some idea of ruling, yet knows what peasant life is like. Instead of the obvious OMGANGST, how about a normal middle child who has always felt as if his/her family were strangers to him/herself? Say this child is quiet and rather distrant, even detached feeling. She/he looks on life as if it's passsing him/her by, of course, the child will have to be given more personality, but that -- is another story, to quote the words of Rudyard Kipling.

Where to go from there is really anyone's idea, but that's just a way of taking an old droll cliche and putting an interesting spin on it~

Aaah, and I know these rants are quite old (two years~) but I just came upon them and found them quite useful when developing characters and ideas, thank you very much. Now I'm going to keep on reading them in hopes I can find some to help me in the problems I ail from ;;~

(Reply to this)


[info]ravencorbie
2005-10-14 07:18 am UTC (link)
I love the idea of prophecies, and I love the way they're worded - the cryptic and mysterious stuff... but you're right. I've never been able to write one because of all the reasons you've mentioned. Is there a good way to do it?

(Reply to this)


[info]crossbow1
2005-10-27 09:34 pm UTC (link)
King Arthur ruind it for everyone else.

Oh, and the nobility-raised-as-a-peasant cliche? Not exclusive to fantasy! I've never actually read a whole romance novel, but all the ones I've tried to read started out this way.

(Reply to this)


Page 1 of 2
<<[1] [2] >>

Create an Account
Forgot your login or password?
Login w/ OpenID
English • Español • Deutsch • Русский…