Limyaael ([info]limyaael) wrote,
@ 2003-12-21 13:14:00
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Current mood: amused
Entry tags:fantasy rants: winter 2003, world-building: magic

Rant on magic, part two.
And, as always, the Swinburne poem part first...

This is from "Love at Sea."

Where shall we land you, sweet?
On fields of strange men's feet,
Or fields near home?
Or where the fire-flowers blow,
Or where the flowers of snow
Or flowers of foam?
We are in love's hand to-day —

Land me, she says, where love
Shows but one shaft, one dove,
One heart, one hand.
— A shore like that, my dear,
Lies where no man will steer,
No maiden land.



1) Reconsider some of the common tropes that don't actually do anything. For example, I've read many stories in which mages had trappings like crystal balls, skulls, and familiars, but never used them. This extends even to published books; in HP, owls deliver the mail, but cats, rats, and toads, though permitted as familiars, don't actually seem to help their owners study magic. Why are they there, then? Probably to give the world a "magical" feel. But still, unless they're needed in a story, it would probably be best to shed these tropes. Many amateur fantasy authors reduce them to the level of cliché without meaning to.

(Useless familiars are probably going to be part of my "Animals in fantasy" rant at one point or another).

2) Try to come up with innovative ways of passing knowledge along. The usual way is an academy or school structure, where students learn from teachers and books. But this isn't the only way that people acquire knowledge, especially in a medieval-like society where many people can't read and probably not everyone is born within walking distance of the academy. And how did the very first mages, the ones who wrote the books and didn't have any teachers to learn from, get their knowledge?

Possibly some young mages can practice exercises or gain control on their own, or gather tips from a parent, relative, or friend who also happens to have magic- or the theory of it. Of course, this assumes that everyone in your society is not a mage and that magic is something relatively rare. That need not be the case. If magic is common, then formal academies would be unnecessary, as they're assumed to be in most fantasy worlds for skills like language and sewing. Children would learn it as they learned other things, and probably not think to differentiate it from most other parts of their lives.

Which brings me to my third point.

3) If magic is common, it should also be used for common purposes. There are few people who wouldn't like to avoid labor. Even if there are complicated arcane theories about why you shouldn't light a fire with magic merely to avoid getting out of your chair, those will get ignored now and then (the same way people in our own world will ignore minor laws like jaywalking if they inconvenience them). This becomes especially true if there are people in your world who have enough money and time to live above subsistence level and start trying to think of ways to make their lives even better. In most medieval-like societies, nobles at least will be at that level, and if your society is structured around Renaissance rather than early medieval patterns, there may be a middle class as well.

There's no reason why common magic that's relatively cheap- either in cost of arcane materials, or replenishible power like the mage just eating and sleeping to regain his strength- should not be the technology of its own world. If there's a mage who can cause copies of letters that he looks at to appear on a different page, there's no reason to waste time copying manuscripts, or for that matter developing a printing press. Of course, this particular talent could be rare and restricted to those able to afford it, which would mean that others have a pressing reason to turn to technology. But there's no particular reason why that talent should remain unique, either, or why the mage shouldn't sell his skills to the highest bidder. If one noble can't afford him, why not move on to another?

Magic can certainly be sacred and special and very rare in your world, and with great success (Martin's Song of Ice and Fire series is one that doesn't have much magic in the first books, and yet the people in Westeros manage very well without it). But if it's not, if it's cheap because of cheap materials or commonality of talent, why accord it that special status? Dependent as we are on technology, most of us don't marvel every time a TV turns on, and there would be no reason for a peasant to gape at someone who can make water flow uphill if he sees it everyday. He would be much more likely to try and figure out if this was competition for his mill.

4) Reconsider gender-divided magic. This is not because it's necessarily a bad idea in itself, but because very little new is ever done with it. Women tend to get healing and defensive magic, and men the violent magic, even when the society isn't divided into traditional gender roles. Sometimes this is explained as having to do with women bearing life and so needing to remain unstained by violence or some such thing.

The people who make this argument have obviously never seen a lioness, a mother bear, or any other female animal for that matter, defending her young. Violence doesn't seem to have anything to do with the ability to bear young, and everything to do with human perception that it's somehow not all right for women to be violent.

If you have gender-divided magic, it's all right to give women the ability to fling firebolts around if you want to. It's all right to give men magic relating to the baking of bread and sewing. Of course, that might require a completely gender-reversed society, which could easily be as boring as the other way around. Either way, if you use gender-specific magic, try to either use it in new and innovative ways, or at least make sure it reflects the roles in the societies you establish. Why should a woman who doesn't show much interest in tending the sick be restricted to healing magic? Why should a man who is a coward in battle have to drop mountains on people? It might be interesting to set these questions up and deal with them, rather than just assuming that everyone in these societies has to be the same.

5) If magic is dying in your world, give it a damn good reason. There was a damn good reason in Tolkien's world; the Elves are fated to pass away before Men, and their "magic" is primarily the reflection of their long lives, knowledge, and ability to relate to the world around them in ways that Men don't understand. When the pass, the magic passes too. Yet I have read of fantasy world after fantasy world where it's dying mainly for authorial convenience, not because of any inherent reason in the world itself.

If your plot requires it, try to justify it. All right, you want your hero to be special because he has powerful magic long after the mages have reigned and passed away. But what is the reason for this? It shouldn't be there just to make your hero special. Is he the chosen of a god, and why has the god brought magic back into the world now? Does he need it to face a powerful enemy who's a mage, and why magic instead of a strong right arm? And so on.

6) Don't always write in the shadow of a greater magical empire. Most fantasy worlds have a period at which magic was more common and greater than it was now, and the moderns stumble around trying to understand the ancients' artifacts and ways. Yet no explanation is ever given (or at least it's rare) as to why the magic faded, and as to why everyone else down the generations has apparently been so dumb that none of the artifacts can be reliably used.

Why this? Why not write at the height of the magical empire? Why not write about someone who does manage to discover what happened to everyone, or does manage to recover the knowledge?

This is another trope, like gender-divided magic or dying magic, that can work well, but which authors rarely bother to explain. There was a powerful magical empire. They were evil. They destroyed themselves. What made them so much more evil than modern humans? What happened to their magic? How do we know they destroyed themselves? To which the answer seems to be: Don't ask.

7) Try to give your magic a metaphysical basis. This doesn't mean that magic can always be explained as neatly as the laws of physics can be (although of course if you have an academy of long-lived mages devoted to nothing but research, there's no reason they shouldn't answer those questions). But some explanation of magic, if not always a reason, is often nice, even if it is wrong.

What is the difference between an explanation and a reason? I would consider a reason that magic is in the world as something like, "The world would die without it" or "The gods said so." A reason answers why. An explanation, though, is along the lines of, "Well, magic works this way, and comes from this, but we don't really know why it's in the world. Why are there trees in the world? Why did horses take the form of horses and not dancing spots of energy? Why did the gods choose to create us humans and not elves? You tell me."

An explanation might actually work better than a reason, since if magic is a natural part of the world, and especially if it's common, why would everyone gape at it and try to explain it any more than they try to explain trees and flowers?



That was fun.




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[info]insert_world
2003-12-21 08:40 pm UTC (link)
Good catch on the difference between ‘reason’ and ‘explanation’. I had zoned on the distinctions myself. >_<;

I tend to use very little magic in my stories. I think it’s because I don’t feel like I can convincingly create a society that has completely adapted to it. I’ve found that every fantasy writer who puts a lot of thought into his or her world tends to have some sort of passion in one aspect of a world’s creation. Personally, I find sociology fascinating, and because of that, I try to build a society with an accurate evolution and overall philosophy towards… well, everything. I feel like trying to make a world where magic is common would be like giving me a distressingly hard math problem: I could give up after five minutes or just guess. But because of my personality towards math and science, I'm extremely anal, and I wouldn’t move until I was sure I did everything right. The same goes with my attitude towards magic and society.

I'm insane. *headdesks*

I’ve often wondered what would happen to a woman or man’s gender specific spells right after he or she had sex. I always thought that it would be neat if their powers were affected by that. But then I get visions of men and women whose sole job is to have sex with mages in order to mingle and/or loan their gender specific powers for a short time. If you think about it, it would get ugly fast.

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[info]limyaael
2003-12-22 08:08 pm UTC (link)
I think you're right, and most authors care more about some aspects of the world than about others. I wouldn't expect everyone add magic to all aspects of their societies.

I do think that if something is added in the author should pay attention to it, though. I've tried to work out what would happen as a consequence of common magic in one of my worlds, and what happens in another closely focused around religion. I've read many fantasies where magic seems as common as water and is still treated religiously, though.

And the magic altering with sex is disturbing and interesting at the same time. I think the closest I've read to something like that is someone losing magic if they lose their chastity. Which is irritating, really; why not have magic come about as the result of sex instead?

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[info]marumae
2003-12-21 11:16 pm UTC (link)
Most fantasy worlds have a period at which magic was more common and greater than it was now, and the moderns stumble around trying to understand the ancients' artifacts and ways. Yet no explanation is ever given (or at least it's rare) as to why the magic faded, and as to why everyone else down the generations has apparently been so dumb that none of the artifacts can be reliably used.

In Juliet E. McKenna's saga Elenium she had a similar idea in mind of a mighty empire akin to the Romans who also had powerful magic, but when the empire collapsed in on itself most the magic was lost in the chaos of the after collapse of the Empire. I always thought that was clever way of doing magic, give a good reason why it's fading. One of my Pet Peeves is exactly what you listed up there, the magic is fading! Well...why? o.0;

This extends even to published books; in HP, owls deliver the mail, but cats, rats, and toads, though permitted as familiars, don't actually seem to help their owners study magic. Why are they there, then?

They're called "pets" XD .

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[info]limyaael
2003-12-22 08:09 pm UTC (link)
*grin* Maybe the cats, toads, and rats are just pets, but I still think it's a puzzling decision on Rowling's part to restrict the pets to animals traditionally used in magic (and not allow dogs or parrots, for example), but then not show them participating in the magic.

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[info]sithjawa
2004-01-03 07:45 am UTC (link)
I always thought that the students had them so they'd practice magic on them instead of on each other. >;)

I kept wanting some kid to bring along a pidgeon or a gerbil or something and get in trouble.

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[info]riyuen
2005-08-14 07:11 am UTC (link)
On the animals of Harry Potter, I believe in Prizoner of Azkaban, Sirius Black sends Crookshanks (a cat) to the bank to get money for Harry's broom? It may not be that cats, rats, toads, etc aren't used magically, or for say delivery, they just aren't used commonly or all the time because owls (flying and all) are faster? Or since we mainly see the HP world through Harry's eyes, and he only sees the world mainly at school, we don't see all the varied uses the pets get. Fawkes the phoenix also seems to participate in a lot of magic, and so does Voldemort's snake, Nagini.

Feel kind of weird replying to a comment that was written two years ago (@_@) but there does seem to be some more recent discussion on the thread so I hope it's okay. Your fantasy rants are both interesting and amusing - mind if I friend you? (And I have the feeling I may be able to both find good fantasy and avoid bad fantasy by seeing which books traits are slammed, and which are recommended - a friend of mine loved Anne Bishop and had me read the Black Jewels series, which made me want to gouge out my eyeballs XD.)

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a lil late buuut.. hp familiars
[info]dreamsnake21
2006-01-19 02:40 am UTC (link)
there is not much mention of what exactly the "familiars" are used for, however, i believe that in PoA when scabbers is sick, ron takes him to the animal store thingy, and the woman working there asks what magical talent scabbers has.. ron kind of hems and haws before admitting that scabbers doesn't do anything - 'cept live longer than usual - and the woman offers to sell him a new rat, and i seem to recall them discussing some magic-ness the rats could do. it does escape me what specifically they could do.. and honestly, i *could* be making it up, but i am usually good about remembering those things, so i think that rowling probably has an idea of what they do, it just doesn't show up bcuz harry has an owl, and we kno what that is used for, and ron had scabbers, which didn't follow the normal rules since he wasn't really a familiar, and after scabbers he got an owl.. hermione has crookshanks, but again, crookshanks is part kneazle, so not a normal cat familiar.. so i think it may be more of a matter of just not seeing what they do since the book is from harrys POV... i kno this post is *quite* late, but i do SO love to talk about HP ^^ i just couldn't contain myself.

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[info]kutsuwamushi
2003-12-22 12:21 am UTC (link)
If magic is common, it should also be used for common purposes.

I'm fond of my plumbing mages.

Reconsider gender-divided magic.

Yes!

I hate gender-divided magic; it's usually just so ... sexist. The tripe about women being "life-bearers" and men being violent jerks is one of the things that can, without fail, make me put a fantasy book down. It's often tied up with the fuzzy-Wiccan New Age magic, as well.

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[info]limyaael
2003-12-22 08:11 pm UTC (link)
Ugh. That tripe (as you've so rightly named it) drove me nuts in Ambrai series by Melanie Rawn. I don't know why, when fantasy authors have matriarchal societies, there always seems to be this urge to either show they can't exist without men or to deify them as better than patriarchal societies. Why not just show them existing, and not as dystopias or utopias?

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[info]kutsuwamushi
2003-12-22 11:45 pm UTC (link)
I suspect it's because authors often like to use their stories as vehicles for their ill thought-out ideals. They probably think that a matriarchal kingdom really would be a place of sunshine and light, where it never rains and no one is ever raped or murdered.

Which, as we know, is a bunch of bull.

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[info]limyaael
2003-12-23 07:16 pm UTC (link)
Exactly. Humans are humans, I think, no matter the gender. Having women in power instead of men would certainly make history different- but I don't think it would make it all sweetness and light. If there were less bloodshed, there would probably be other and more subtle cruelties.

Hmmm, that gives me an idea for a story...

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(Anonymous)
2003-12-22 07:23 am UTC (link)
In "Wizard of the Pigeons," by (I forget), there's gender-specific magic--but the women are the destroyers. It's all very interesting. A very introspective book. I liked it, but I didn't feel that I understood it very well, so one of us is probably not doing the other justice.

- warnthepenguins

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[info]limyaael
2003-12-22 08:11 pm UTC (link)
Thanks for the recommendation; I've heard of that book, but never seen it in print. I'll have to watch used bookstores.

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[info]feathered
2005-07-31 11:28 pm UTC (link)
It's by Megan Lindholm, which is Robin Hobb's previous pen name. I believe it's out of print. A friend of mine has read it and didn't care for it much, so I've not tried to seek it out.

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[info]clannoire
2003-12-22 08:40 am UTC (link)
4) Reconsider gender-divided magic.

I've been thinking about the whole gender-divide factor on the difference of types of magic.

I have two characters: one male and one female. The male character I call a Witch (for the simple fact that he practises 'feminine' magic, such us brewing potions and putting charms on household appliances), and the female is a Wizard (only because she practises 'masculine' magic, which run along the lines of summoning storms and dragons, etc).

This was all fine and dandy, but then I thought: Would is be still considered 'masculine' magic if a woman pactised it, and would it still be considered 'feminine' magic if a man practised it? :(

I know the magic-catergorization would be based on the type of society I was writing about, but do gender-related magics change simple because of the person practising it in the first place?

I mean, cooking has always been a women's profession, but the best chefs in the world are almost always men. :P

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[info]limyaael
2003-12-22 08:13 pm UTC (link)
I think it might depend on your readers' perceptions as well as your own. If you present the man as effeminate and the woman as harsh and masculine, that might confirm the reader's impression that these forms of magic are unnatural for one gender or the other. You might want to let someone else read it and see what they think.

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[info]eisoj5
2003-12-22 02:40 pm UTC (link)
I have a fairly standard element-based system of magic where a mage can work within the element for which they have an affinity. Unlike WoT, though women don't have a strong affinity for air and water, nor to men with earth and fire. I think it's going to be interesting to explore how or if men and women use the elements in different ways.

I'm trying to get around #6 by establishing a subculture of mages who have a great love of history and a Library-at-Alexandria type of training hall. But I admit to having a few lost great artifacts...well, some of them are lost. A couple are in the hands of the historian mages.

These essays are great. Do you mind if I friend you?

-josie

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[info]limyaael
2003-12-22 08:14 pm UTC (link)
If you've got an explanation going, I think that's great. I prefer to split magic apart from gender completely because I don't think I can handle it well (I'll get preachy either way), but it would be interesting if someone came up with a new way to use it.

Sure you can friend me! *friends you back*

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[info]warnthepenguins
2003-12-23 09:09 am UTC (link)
"friend you"...don't you love verbing? Although when it's used, 'to friend' almost sounds sinister somehow. Verbing weirds language.

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[info]limyaael
2003-12-23 07:17 pm UTC (link)
Although when it's used, 'to friend' almost sounds sinister somehow. Verbing weirds language.

*grin* Blame LJ; they call it a "friends list." And blame convenience. "Make you one of the people whose journal I want to keep track of" is awkward.

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[info]eisoj5
2003-12-24 04:11 am UTC (link)
I like verbing.

Plus, verbing is an example of verbing! That's the best part. *nods*

-josie

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Re:
[info]nextian
2004-02-12 04:56 am UTC (link)
Calvin! Calvin! Calvin and Hobbes!

...I'll shut up now. REALLY.

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BbHtrYoink
(Anonymous)
2003-12-22 08:55 pm UTC (link)
Oh wow, this is your most uber-informative rant EVER!!!!1! (At least for me. =) )

1: I don't think I had a problem with this one in my story. But, after reading this, the question popped into my mind: What if the "common troupes" actually have some sort of secret, vital purpose? Like a seemingly-broken crystal ball is actually a working model of the planet, and the hole in the ozone layer is the result of a crack in the crystal ball (or the crack is the result of the hole). And that paves the way to all sorts of interesting plot ideas, IF they are written well.

2: Never thought of using simple exercises instead of formal teaching (though I SHOULD have, stupid me). That actually quite neatly solves a problem in the plotline I've been banging my head into a wall about. Thanks! =)

3: Yes, yes, YES! Harry Potter handled this one quite well. I'm thinking of doing trying to do a story that takes place in more than one world, and in some magic is common and in some it isn't. I just hope I can handle the world-hopping effectively, especially since the characters doing the hopping are still fairly novice wizards at that point.

4: No gender-divided magic in my story. However, insert_world's comment about sex influencing magic is really interesting. I just might have to use that, somehow or other.

5: My magic is alive and kicking, thank you very much! =)

6: No past magical empire in my story. Except Atlantis, kinda sorta, but not really. (I'd explain, but it's a complex explanation involving a deep understanding of magic, world-hopping, and the properties of mayonaisse.)

7: Got that fully covered. In fact, that's the reason I started writing this in the first place: I was dissasfied with other stories' explanation of magic, and I wanted to write one that did explain it to my satisfaction.

Wow. That turned out a lot longer than I thought. I guess I just love talking about my story. Seriously, someone needs to tell me to shut up. (Any volunteers? =) )

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Re: BbHtrYoink
[info]limyaael
2003-12-22 10:21 pm UTC (link)
I don't think you need to shut up. This is fascinating. I would like to see you finish that story and publish it.

And if I can help in any small way, that's wonderful. *grin*

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Re: BbHtrYoink
(Anonymous)
2003-12-23 01:59 am UTC (link)
I'll do my best! :) Unfortunately, despite all the planning that I've done already, I still don't feel comfortable moving to the writing stage yet. I've tried writing the first few chapters several times, and been dissatisfied with what I've got (I know, my standards are too high! So sue me!) so I'm trying to deeply plan out my story, which will take a while.

Bottom line is, though I am working on it, I don't expect anything will be actually written for some time. Sorry!

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Re: BbHtrYoink
[info]limyaael
2003-12-23 07:18 pm UTC (link)
Well, as long as you're working on it. I know that abandoning a project (both from seeing it done and from doing it myself) makes it very, very hard to go back to.

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Common use of magic
[info]jessara40k
2005-05-13 07:53 am UTC (link)
Well, you're a fan of Brust, so you know how commonly Dragaerans use sorcery, right? Down to using it to keep the streets clean, which is one reason they look down on Eastereners, since they can't do that with sorcery. I just wonder why witchcraft isn't used the same way by the Easterners. I mean, is it harder to learn or something? Or will witchcraft just not do some of the things sorcery will?

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Re: Common use of magic
[info]cimadness
2005-05-22 05:52 am UTC (link)
As I recall, witchcraft is difficult to learn, so most people don't. Moreover, it takes a long time if you're doing anything complex or hard, and can be enormously physically draining. So even for an accomplished witch, it's generally less effort to do things by hand which are doable by hand. As far as what it's able to do, IIRC, witchcraft can in principle do anything sorcery can, but the amount of effort involved can make certain things practical impossibilities (if something is guaranteed to drain you to the point of death before you're through doing it, you can't do it).

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[info]onyxflame
2006-02-15 05:49 pm UTC (link)
3) If magic is common, it should also be used for common purposes.

I was wondering when someone would get around to this one. In my novel, the rich and powerful have built plumbing in their houses/palaces, and hire mages to produce running water and such. My MC, who's never been in the house of a rich and famous person, encounters a magical flushing toilet and ignores it even though she has to go really bad because she thinks it's a washbasin and doesn't see any chamberpots sitting around. It's great. :)

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[info]lunar_music
2007-09-05 04:55 am UTC (link)
Eep! This is old; hope you don't mind random comments on old entries...

Re #6:

My fantasy world has a mage-ruled empire in it's history, but it's like, the third old empire back. Main result of the Miran empire that's still around are a half-dozen or so different breeds of intelligent magical constructs, and the fact that the trickster god that "encouraged" the Miran mages is now under the control of another god (god of war and politics), who's supposed to keep him out of trouble (which works, up until the point that the trickster god starts buttering up the half-mortal son of the god of war and politics. The poor kid doesn't even realize he's the son of a god until halfway through the third book).

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