Limyaael ([info]limyaael) wrote,
@ 2003-12-23 14:19:00
Previous Entry  Add to memories!  Tell a Friend!  Next Entry
Current mood:brutally happy
Entry tags:fantasy rants: winter 2003, world-building: law

Rant on justice and the legal system in fantasy.
I’m in a brutal happy mood today, for no apparent reason.



Another admitting of biases here, though in a somewhat opposite direction than before: I love rogue heroes. I like cheering for them. But I do think it’s too bad that the approach of many amateur authors to creating a rogue hero is to dumb down the legal system opposing him—or make it nearly nonexistent.

1) There is a large cache of stereotypes under the bed. Toss them out the window. These include: the dumb guard, the lecherous guard, the magistrate who takes endless bribes, and the sadistic captain. You can have people in the legal system who are dumb, lecherous, taking bribes, and sadists, but it’s far, far too easy to make these the only kind of people that your rogue hero encounters. So he gets to fool the guards by dressing up as a woman or performing other stupid tricks, he gets to feel triumphant that the magistrate who would judge him is corrupt, and he gets to kill the captain without a twinge of conscience.

Somewhere lost in the mess is the idea that the rogue has committed crimes, and is probably not entirely innocent of many of the same “sins” that the author condemns the legal stereotypes for holding. Also lost in the mess is the idea that such open corruption would get noticed and corrected, ruthlessly, even if the people who did the correcting weren’t very nice. Perhaps the people who replaced the dumb ones would be just as corrupt, but they would certainly be better at hiding it.

This goes back to the rant on secondary characters. Don’t make them stupid for the sake of making your hero shine. A nice twist might be the hero confidently dressing up as a woman to sneak past a guard he thinks is stupid, only to have the guard slam him in the groin with a pike and haul him off to jail, while explaining that two people have tried that in the last day.

2) Think out your trial system. Juries and judges are a fairly recent invention as far as real world justice systems go, along with the idea that a defendant is innocent until proven guilty, entitled to legal representation, and many, many others. Remember that the Miranda rights weren’t established beyond doubt in the United States until the 1960’s. It is unlikely that your fantasy world, unless it’s achieved a technological or magical level of living well above subsistence, would have the same concept of human rights as ours.

Too many amateur fantasies have juries and judges who are supposed to be impartial, even if they vary the number of jurors. Other times, they have heroes who are outraged that such things don’t exist—for example, that the judge is not impartial—even when the systems of their worlds are very clearly set up differently.

Unless there’s a good reason for it, like your hero coming from the modern world, don’t affix modern feelings and customs to your fantasy world’s legal system. The medieval world included many customs we would find unfair, such as trial by ordeal, but if “unfair” suits your fantasy world better, then adopt it, or come up with something in keeping with your world. Don’t slap modern legal ideas down in a world where they’ll stand out like a second nose, just because you don’t want to shock your readers’ delicate sensibilities.

3) Cells should not be easy to escape from. It seems that no matter how well guards make their cells, those dratted rogue heroes keep getting out of them.

It shouldn’t be that easy. Consider: The stereotypical fantasy cell is stone on three sides, with iron bars along the fourth. It’s covered with foul-smelling straw. It has a chamber pot and possibly a cot. It has rats. It most likely has spiders. The guards leave food and water once a day or more often. The prisoner doesn’t have any keys.

Yet people manage to stroll out of them all the time.

Most of the ploys they use are transparent, and dependent on the stupidity of the guards. They’ll pretend that someone in the cell is sick, for example, and get the guards to come in alone. They’ll wait until food and water are delivered, and attack then. They’ll throw the chamber pot and escape while the guards are choking on the mess. In the most extreme cases, they somehow manage to hack their way out through solid stone or open the locks with weapons or keypicks the guards somehow missed.

In anything resembling reality, it’s unlikely these would work. The guards should know better than to send someone in alone, or come alone when they bring the food. The chamber pot probably won’t be available as a weapon, and even if it was, there’s no guarantee that a blinded guard striking at a prisoner would miss every single time. And experienced guards would have no reason not to strip a prisoner naked and search him or her carefully for weapons.

Don’t make the cells a snap to get out of, particularly if your heroes are wounded. Assume the guards have at least a modicum of intelligence, that use of these cells would have been discontinued if people could escape so easily, and work from there.

4) Consider how people in the legal system will see your heroes. If your hero is a rogue and has stolen a great amount of things, the guard captains and judges are unlikely to share in his self-congratulations. Put yourself in their shoes and think for a moment. How would you react if your house was burglarized, or if you were responsible for protecting houses that were being burglarized? Anger and helplessness are understandable reactions, not stupid ones, as is the desire to resist celebrating the rogue as a hero.

If your heroes aren’t rogues, just wandering adventurers, also try to think how a guard captain would react to these dangerous, careless, irresponsible people walking through a town it’s his duty to protect. The heroes might be able to sneer at dead enemies and fires in houses, but then, they don’t live in those towns and don’t feel as if they were at home there. It’s quite different for the people who lose loved ones and homes, or at least have to clean up the bloodshed and arson, and it would be careless to demonize them for those reactions.

5) The heroes shouldn’t be the only ones with unusual skills. Guards in fantasy seem to consist almost exclusively of armor-wearing, hard-drinking men who aren’t very skilled with their swords. If their weapons aren’t swords, they’re pikes or spears, and they don’t know how to use those. Yet somehow they’ve managed to effectively oppose everyone until the heroes come along.

Why not let there be archer guards occasionally? Or good swordsmen? Or former thieves who could follow the heroes around on rooftops and evade their booby traps? Mage guards would be interesting. So would women, or guards of other races, like elves, who would have skills that the heroes are used to possessing only for themselves. All of these would have some claim to effectiveness, and would give the heroes a challenge, in the same way intelligent prison guards would.

And look at it like this: Your heroes would have to work twice as hard to defeat them. If they outshone them anyway, they would look far better than if they just conquered the usual guys who rush in to be hacked to death like idiots.

6) Guard captains and judges are likely to have resources. At the very least, they’re going to have better connections in their hometowns than wandering heroes. That means they could probably pay someone to keep an eye on the heroes, or pick up reports of unusual strangers from townspeople they already know. They may even have a full-fledged spy network. It boggles the imagination when a hero who has never been in a town before can walk in and vanish from the eyes of a captain who’s been commanding the same guards in the same town for twenty years.

Guard captains and judges are also likely to know the town itself better. They’ll know the best hiding places, the people rogue heroes might turn to for help, the notorious thieves. They won’t wait to look for a thief just to nicely make it convenient for him to rob a house.

7) All those feisty heroes should get slapped down at least some of the time. This is another very common device: to have a witty rogue hero whose every word makes the guards gape in silence, or look foolish if they try to respond. If that really has to happen in your story for plot reasons, guards trained to violence are likely to resort to violence at the very least. That feisty rogue hero can probably count on at least a few bruises, and bad treatment in the cells, like late food or drink the guards have pissed in.

It might be even more interesting to have a witty guard who can answer back, or someone, probably the captain, who’s seen this all before. For a good example of this (and many other ways of breaking the stereotypes about guards), read Terry Pratchett’s City Watch subseries. That tells the story from the viewpoint of the guards, especially their commander, Samuel Vimes, and the criminals convinced of their own brilliance can seem just as foolish from the opposite side.



Other than parents, guards seem to be the demonization target of choice in fantasy. I don’t really know why, considering how great a problem thievery and violence are in our world. Maybe it’s just easier to cheer a rogue hero from the armchair than to think about what it would mean to face one.




(Post a new comment)


[info]jacay
2003-12-23 07:56 pm UTC (link)
Your rants are a joy to read. I love that you're able to see things from everyone's point of view, not just the heroes'. Too many writers make the mistake of making everyone, whether they be kings, guards, peasants, or enemy mages, awed by the heroes. I made this mistake myself, and I am so grateful I happened upon your rants or else I wouldn't have been able to fix it.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]limyaael
2003-12-24 08:00 pm UTC (link)
Thank you! I like seeing things from multiple points of view, and I find stories that explore ideas from an "outsider" point of view fascinating, so I do try to do it in my own posts.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]mhari
2003-12-23 09:49 pm UTC (link)
Other than parents, guards seem to be the demonization target of choice in fantasy.

This is something I have never particularly noted, perhaps mercifully. (Actually, I haven't noticed a lot of the things you complain about, probably because I've been an extremely conservative reader for these many years and rarely pick up anything by an author I don't recognize and trust.)

But I always liked that Pratchett apparently has a whole subseries of Discworld books where the law-and-order types *are* the heroes, so much so that I made sure one of them was the first Pratchett book I acquired for my own.

Me, I'm on-again off-again writing a story with a female guard as the heroine. Am quite fond of her, as I got sick of spunky princesses somewhere along the line.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]limyaael
2003-12-24 08:02 pm UTC (link)
I probably notice it more because I've read more rogue heroes. I enjoy the stories, but sometimes I find myself thinking, "This author does remember the heroes are thieves, right, and the guards have a right to be upset?"

Am quite fond of her, as I got sick of spunky princesses somewhere along the line.

I wish more people would. I would like to see more heroines who aren't royal.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

BbHtrYoink
(Anonymous)
2003-12-23 11:38 pm UTC (link)
Hm...this particular rant doesn't instantly inspire a comment like most of your others, but I'll give it a shot anyway! =)

Last things first: I do so love it when the arrogant hero/heroine gets what's coming to them. A verbal slap in the face is a joy to read, not to mention that, depending on the character and the writer, it can lead to interesting consequences. ("You dare insult me? You shall die!" "Bring it, fool! *thwacks him with large salmon*") OK, that example was a little too strange, but still. =)

An active defense force is definitely good. And I'm not talking about something as cliche as a ward that vaporizes intruders: That has SUCH high potential to kill the very person they're designed to protect. =) Maybe a set of guards around the perimeter armed with mayonaisse and large salmons? (LOL)

And first things last: I personally seem to have a problem with cliche minor characters, but I'll work on it. And, you're right, as amusing as one stupid guard can be, a whole host of them is a recipe for unreality and disaster and general stupidity on the author's part.

By the way, I apologize with my recent obession with mayonaisse and salmons. It's just that, for no apparent reason, I was thinking of a scene from a book I read that was highly amusing. I don't remember the specifics, but there are two characters working together, trying to interrogate a third character (a woman, I believe). When the woman refuses to talk, one of the interregators gets a crafty expression on his face, turns to the other interragator, and asks for a few random objects. (I think they were two live hamsters, a cardboard tube, a jar of mayonaisse, and a comb, but what they actually were is unimportant.) The second interragater has no idea what these are for, but he turns away and starts looking for them. The woman slowly becomes more and more scared, sweating profusely, and after about a minute, the she cries out, "No, no, I'll do it, I'll confess! Not the hamsters, please!" (I just thought that was priceless.) Later, the second interragator askes the first what they were going to use the stuff for. The first replies that he has no idea. He asked for them to get the woman to imagine tortures for herself, and it worked!

(BTW: I wouldn't recommend thinking about this too hard. You'll start wondering just what you can do with two hamsters, a cardboard tube, some mayonaisse, and a comb, and end up scaring youself as well. It happened to me!)

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: BbHtrYoink
[info]limyaael
2003-12-24 08:03 pm UTC (link)
I love those weird torture scenes. The latest Guards book by Pratchett (Night Watch) has "the ginger beer trick," which is basically the guardsmen driving the too-imaginative prisoners batty imagining what you can do with an open bottle of ginger beer.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: BbHtrYoink
[info]ahayweh
2004-01-03 01:05 am UTC (link)
Hi. I've been lurking around your journal for a bit ever since a friend linked me to your LOTR Kill-the-Mary-Sues series (which was hilarious, by the way). I'm sorry to comment on this a week late, but I've been on vacation and I'm catching up. Am loving your guides so far- I've noticed several things I need to work on, and've gotten at least two nagging story ideas.

Er, I think I had a point. What was- oh, yes. When I read Night Watch, I got the impression that the ginger-beer trick was the Discworld version of the Coca-Cola torture. I think it may have been used by the KGB, but I've completely forgotten where I've heard about it now, so I don't know. The idea is to put your thumb over the neck, shake up the bottle as hard as you can, and jam it up the victim's nose. Sort of like drowning and asphyxiating at the same time. I'm pretty sure that in Night Watch there was meant to be an actual ginger-beer trick- Carcer told Vimes that he'd told what's-his-face about it, and Vimes had gone 'oh, hell', long before Vimes psyched out the prisoners with it.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Re: BbHtrYoink
[info]venusrain
2007-07-01 03:55 am UTC (link)
"(BTW: I wouldn't recommend thinking about this too hard. You'll start wondering just what you can do with two hamsters, a cardboard tube, some mayonaisse, and a comb, and end up scaring youself as well. It happened to me!)"

Honestly... That just made me giggle. xD I can't think of anything too frightening involving those things ((Outside of hamster-down-throat)), and it really doesn't bother me. O_o;; *freak*

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]clannoire
2003-12-24 09:03 am UTC (link)
For a good example of this (and many other ways of breaking the stereotypes about guards), read Terry Pratchett’s City Watch subseries. That tells the story from the viewpoint of the guards, especially their commander, Samuel Vimes, and the criminals convinced of their own brilliance can seem just as foolish from the opposite side.

Reading your rant on the guards, I was just about to mention this series until you beat me to it. :P Ah, well! :) I knew it was going to come up sooner or later.

I've always admired Terry Pratchett for his City Watch series - simply because it sheds some light on the guards most authors just throw into the background. A whole series of them, imagine. ;D

Another book that I read involving a rougue hero and featuring some fairly intelligent guards is The Thief by Magan Whalen Turner. The rougue hero in question is indeed a thief, and the very first scene of the book features him rotting in a prison cell he couldn't escape from, no matter how skilled he was. :D Quite refreshing, having a hero that boasts himself indestructable yet finds himself proven wrong over and over again. *grin*

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]limyaael
2003-12-24 08:04 pm UTC (link)
Hmm, I've heard a few recommendations for The Thief. I'll have to check it out. Thanks!

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]salophile
2003-12-24 08:36 pm UTC (link)
Why not let there be archer guards occasionally? Or good swordsmen? Or former thieves who could follow the heroes around on rooftops and evade their booby traps? Mage guards would be interesting. So would women, or guards of other races, like elves, who would have skills that the heroes are used to possessing only for themselves. All of these would have some claim to effectiveness, and would give the heroes a challenge, in the same way intelligent prison guards would.

You know, I once made up an island kingdom with a militia/law enforcement consisting entirely of criminals. The entire population was made of refugees from the mainland, and it seemed like a good idea to myself and the island council to have wily, strong people taking care of security... though I realize that, lax about laws though that society was, it would still take a lot of work to make that system a success. Oh, now you have me philosophizing...

(Reply to this)

Those Poor Guards
[info]wolfychan
2004-01-02 01:35 pm UTC (link)
I think the stormtroopers in Star Wars are the archetypal "guards" for a lot of sci-fi and fantasy: there are zillions of them, and they're considered reliable enough to be left as the only thing between the heroes and escape, yet they're amazingly stupid and easy to kill.

Also, you can kill them without remorse. No one ever kills a stormtrooper, then takes off his helmet and sees that he's very young, or old, or wonders if he had a wife and children. I've actually seen heroes angst when they have to kill a person, but killing or injuring a guard? That's just disabling the security system. Nothing to break a sweat about.

(Reply to this)


[info]randomkat
2005-06-20 04:49 pm UTC (link)
Just going to say two things here...
I LOVE reading your rants! yeah, I know I'm not the first (probably not the last either) to say that, but they are seriously great.
And... Go Terry Pratchet! And Vimes, and Carrot! And all the others too!

(Reply to this)


[info]sligking
2005-10-06 12:24 am UTC (link)
I love you for #7. In an earlier installment of my story, OUR HERO (TM) sneaks into a heavily guarded fortress to steal a magic weapon he was contracted to retrieve. Of course, sneaking in was the easy part, dealing with the EVIL OVERLORD (TM) and five armory guards who caught him was a bit harder. Needless to say, interogation, prison time and exile on pain of torture and death followed. Magic Weapon stayed happily in it's reinforced case that he never actually found.

(Reply to this)


[info]kaymera
2005-10-12 08:26 pm UTC (link)
I liked number 3 because in a book I wrote last year I had my hero escape from a cell. I hadn't thought about it before but the guy I had unlocking the cell while my female lead distracted the guard (by pretending to be an indignant noble who'd been attacked on the street outside, if you were interested) had the keys because he was effectively a hugely biased employee. Maybe I should include, in my redraft, my female lead (who is pretty honourable) being shocked at the idea.

(Reply to this)


[info]thebeecharmer
2006-11-07 05:47 pm UTC (link)
I recently followed a link to this from a resource page and find it very helpful

I was wondering if you ever looked at a fantasy legal system which contradicts its own laws, like the conundrum of Aragorn's eligibility to take the throne in LotR.

Laws written during the time of Pelendur the Just plainly lay out this scenario, yet Tolkien completely ignores his own laws. I adore Tolkien, but this just gets on my nerves...

BTW, may I friend you?

(Reply to this)

One thing that always irked me
[info]ark7521
2006-12-22 08:47 pm UTC (link)
Say a hero saves a princess or someone who's helpless and not really a fighter and gives him or her a weapon to fend off the guards as they make their escape. These rescued ones just so happen to fight them off pretty well, as if guards were not trained at all.

(Reply to this)

What amazes me...
[info]ak47x2
2007-04-16 06:21 am UTC (link)
...is that nobody seems to take the challenge of having a good sadist character.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: What amazes me...
[info]book_worm5
2007-06-23 01:33 am UTC (link)
Shylar, or Shaklar or something like that, the General governor (yes, that's the right order) of Wolmar in Christopher Stasheff's Warlock series, is a sadomasochist who is still 'good'. He shows up in Escape Velocity and The Warlock Wandering, I believe.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]j_ts
2007-09-06 01:02 am UTC (link)
I love Terry Pratchett! Everything's a parody in his books, and it makes you see everything differently.

(Reply to this)

Good post.
[info]foolster41
2008-06-30 06:08 pm UTC (link)
I love these rants, they've been realy helpful.

Actually, in the world I'm building I realized I feel in to the too modern one (#2).

It was less me trying to copy the real world and more because in my world there was a series of really bad kings and when the people revolted I thought they'd naterualy set up something kind of opposite to a king. The system involves a group of elected judges that also compose a larger group of judges (for all the areas together) as the "higher court". (Also it was a political system I'd never seen before in reality or fiction and might be interesting. :) )

I'm probibly going to keep the basic idea, but I'm going to get rid of the innocent before proven guilty and entitlement to legal representation that I kind of assumed in there with everything else. Not really needed and too modern.

(Reply to this)


[info]arkan2
2009-04-09 06:00 pm UTC (link)
Ridiculously late, as per usual, but I just felt an overwhelming urge to respond to this one.

First of all, hell yes on the City Watch series. Starts out good, and the later books are among the best contemporary fiction of any genre.

Secondly: Other than parents, guards seem to be the demonization target of choice in fantasy. I don’t really know why, considering how great a problem thievery and violence are in our world.
Interesting observation. I have a possible explanation for you, though it's only a hypothesis.

At its heart, a police force, like an army, is legalized violence. The police, like the army, is the organization which employs state-sponsored violence in defense of the state.

Now, I'm aware that the bulk of police action does not, in fact, employ any violence at all. But at all times in interactions with the police there's the threat of violence. It's like the universal guard look Vimes reflects on in Thud!: "The default position is that you are dead, only my patience keeps that from happening."

Whenever an ordinary citizen interacts with a police officer, there is always the understanding on the citizen's part that 'This person is equipped and empowered by law to use violence against you (and this includes stuff like sending people to prison) if you step out of line.'

It seems to me that the Vimes anti-authoritarian streak is shared by a lot of people in the real world. We do resent arbitrary authority figures, especially arbitrary authority figures who are empowered to use violence against us.

And of course, resentment often morphs into dislike, if not outright hatred. In which case, disparaging a fantasy counterpart to the police is sort of like saying "ha! They're not really any better than us, anyway."

So basically, it's the same kind of logic as the youthful rebellion which leads to the demonization of parents in literature. At least that's one possible explanation.

(Reply to this)


Create an Account
Forgot your login or password?
Login w/ OpenID
English • Español • Deutsch • Русский…