Limyaael ([info]limyaael) wrote,
@ 2003-12-24 15:00:00
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Current mood:dragonish
Entry tags:fantasy rants: winter 2003, rants on nonhumans

Rant on dragons.
My mood is rather strange at the moment. I’m reading both Stephen Donaldson’s The Mirror of Her Dreams and Stephen King’s Wolves of the Calla, and they’re blending in odd ways.

And now…



Dragons don’t annoy me in and of themselves like prophecies do, but misused, they’re right up there.

1) Try to come up with reasons for the clichés. This goes back to things like crystal balls. Dragons in fantasy tend to sleep on hoards of gold and hate knights. Yet this isn’t Earth, with its complex of dragon legends to account for such things. Most of the time, no explanation is offered; it’s simply “Well, this is a dragon, and that’s what they do.”

A lot of fun can be had when trying to come up with justifications, or twist your dragon away from the usual. What reason would a dragon have to sleep on such a hard, cold bed of metal, when it’s a reptile? Does its own fire keep it warm? Perhaps your dragon hoards blankets instead of gold, or silver instead of gold. What do dragons do with the virgins they carry off, anyway? What would happen if a dragon could speak peacefully with a knight? (Roger Zelazny wrote a very funny short story about a collaboration between a knight and a dragon who want to impress their girlfriends; unfortunately, I don’t remember the title). Or perhaps your dragons are entirely different in not hoarding treasure at all. It’s always better to put a little thought into ideas like this instead of just adopting them.

2) Dragons don’t need to be either evil or benevolent. Many amateur fantasies tend to one extreme or the other; the dragons are evil, ravening monsters, or creatures of powerful magic and high civilization—much like elves in other fantasies—who want to help humans reach the same level. Yet this ignores some fundamental truths, the deepest being why dragons would bother with humans in the first place. They don’t share much in common with them; they aren’t the same size (most of the time), the same shape, or possessed of the same curiosities and drives (again, most of the time). It takes a really compelling motive to bring dragons and humans together, or should, and most of the time that motive isn’t explored. The dragons are left with the same lack of motivation that afflicts other Evil characters in fantasy, or they want to talk to humans just because. Remember the saying: “The surest sign that there is other intelligent life in the universe is that none of it has yet contacted us.”

Basically, don’t reduce your dragons to satellites orbiting around the human sun. Give them motivations of their own, motivations based recognizably on their psychology and physicality, and distinct from the motivations of goblins or elves. Otherwise, dragons aren’t being used to their full potential. They could be marvelously unique, given how different they are from most of the other creatures in fantasy, but that rarely happens.

3) Don’t assume dragons would have an analogue for everything humans do. I’ve read a few amateur fantasies where dragons lived in houses, had their own form of clothing, and used chairs.

Why, though? As mentioned above, dragons aren’t the same shapes as humans, and couldn’t comfortably fit in most human houses or furniture. They aren’t even humanoid, and so don’t have the excuse of other fantasy races like elves and dwarves for developing the same kind of possessions that humans do, only more graceful or rougher. It’s much more likely that they would suit themselves, rather than just slavishly copying the humans.

Now, dragons could have their own form of covering from the weather, places to rest comfortably, and homes. They could do art and have music. But to transplant humanoid notions onto them doesn’t really make sense. To take just one example, why would a dragon have a shirt and pants instead of just one covering for the whole body, with holes for the wings if they have them? Why have different clothing for the male and female, when the females likely don’t have many outer characteristics to differentiate them from the males? Why adapt dragons to a standard that fits our own instead of something that would make more sense?

I suppose this could apply to every fantasy race: try to think of what would make sense for them, instead of just for the humans visiting them.

4) Come up with something for the dragons to do all day. This is a problem that also afflicts other fantasy races with long lives, a “high” level of civilization, and apparently nothing better to do than hang around and help humans or bother them at some point. What do the faeries do in their own courts? What do the elves do when they’re not lamenting the death of their lands or coldly refusing help to humans? And what do dragons do, other than hunting and sleeping?

There seems to be remarkably little sense of dragons as a society, even when it’s stated that they are one. I’ve read very few books with dragons who created art, who sang, who explored, who did all the interesting things that humans seem to think we would be able to do if we just had longer lives. Consider this: Dragons are usually large reptiles, and large reptiles don’t need to eat that often. They feast when they need to, then let it subside in their bellies. And surely intelligent and civilized dragons wouldn’t spend the rest of their days sleeping. What do they do? And if you take humans among them, can you show them doing it?

Of course, dragons can be just animals in your world, or the lesser partners of humans. But if they’re not, if they’re intelligent and self-sufficient on their own, it doesn’t do to state that and then just show them eating and sleeping. Who takes out dragon trash?

5) It shouldn’t be that easy to kill a dragon. In fantasies where dragons are evil, it often is, though. Some of these are explained away as the result of enchanted weapons and the help of fate, which is how Tolkien treated the dragon-killings in his world. But otherwise, people go around stabbing these powerful beasts left and right, and rightfully feared adversaries are reduced to the level of other “evil” races in the fantasy world—sword-fodder for the heroes.

If you’re using a “standard” fantasy dragon with four legs and two wings, pause a moment and think about how many weapons that beast has, even if it’s only twenty-five or thirty feet long. For a start, it will be enormously strong, far stronger than any single human or horse. If you’re using one with a whip-like neck and tail, it can use both of them as battering rams. The blow of a crocodile’s tail can kill a human being. What would a dragon’s tail do? Probably not cause light wounds.

There’s the talons and teeth, of course, and if your dragons are snake-like or lizard-like, they should be quick enough to use them—and strike home at least some of the time. Try to make your heroes’ escapes look like skill rather than luck or Miraculous Dodging Powers. The wings would probably be kept folded in close to the body, since the wing-leather is usually represented as fairly thin and vulnerable to spears and arrows, and not spread wide just to provide an easy target. However, if the wings are torn apart, then your heroes have not cowed the dragon; more likely, they’ve just brought a very angry dragon to the ground, where it can strike from close range. If your dragon has horns and spikes on the head or tail, it should get the chance to use them, too, and it might well stamp with its paws.

Finally, there’s the breath, usually of fire. Decide whether it’s a thin, concentrated line or a wide blast. The thin line may prove easier to dodge; on the other hand, it’s likely to be hotter that way, and a hero it does strike will probably burst into flames and be very hard to put out, or vaporized altogether if the heat is strong enough. It might be best to actually estimate a rough temperature for the breath, so you don’t have inconsistencies like the flames melting rock but just making a hero’s jacket smolder.

Defensively, the dragon will also have its scales. If they’re thin and flexible, then the dragon may prove vulnerable to swords and arrows, but it will also move more quickly than a dragon with thick and heavy scales. A dragon might lumber with scales too thick, but your heroes will have a harder time justifying fighting it without magic. For every advantage, there’s a trade-off, or should be.

And there’s what happens if you have magic-wielding dragons, intelligent dragons, or dragons with both. Obviously, a dragon should not be an easy opponent to fight.

6) Dragons are not helpless without hands. Many times, even dragons with high levels of civilization live in rough caves, with their poorly fashioned mockeries of human things strewn around them. This seems to be the fault of not having human hands.

Again, particularly if you want to present your dragons as high and sophisticated, think like a dragon. There are many advantages to fingers, but there are disadvantages as well. For one thing, humans cannot carve stone without the aid of special tools, and even then not easily. Why not let dragon talons and teeth do that? Or why not have them use their fire breath to carve out tunnels to live in, particularly if it’s hot enough to melt rock? Fire that strong wouldn’t be much use in hunting, since it might char the animal beyond edibility, and dragons wouldn’t be under attack all the time. Try to come up with uses the dragons would have for it. Do it right, and they will come to seem like embodiments of themselves, rather than shadows of humans. (This is the problem with a lot of non-human races in fantasy; they’re presented as just ways of commenting on human society, either positively or negatively, not as people in themselves).

To mention just one more disadvantage of hands: They’re bruised or broken easily. If human magic in your world depends on hand gestures, what happens to a mage who gets his fingers broken? If dragons use gestures as well, they would have an advantage over human mages here. Their gestures may be clumsier, slower, or wider, but it would be one hell of a hard job to break or bind their talons.



More personal than some of them, but people using dragons as just sword-fodder or surrogate elves irritates me.




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[info]marumae
2003-12-24 09:11 pm UTC (link)
Dragons are my favorite fantasy creature of all, I have a mini obesession with them. For a reason, they are just so damned cool *_* There's a great site online with a thoroughly researched and well developed and extensive site online that talks about dragon physiology. It's actually a very interesting site, you might find interesting if I can find the link again I'll give it to you. ^-^

What reason would a dragon have to sleep on such a hard, cold bed of metal

Actually gold is quite soft, which is why legend states they used to sleep on it because it was so soft. The heat from the fires in their bodies used to heat the gold enough so that it was like a warm bed of coals, hot enough to warm them but not enough to melt. It was also believed that like crows they had an affinity for all things shiny, which is another reason why they carried off gold and jewels. Do I think dragons really did that? No. I don't. I don't think a dragon would bother spending the next thousand years of it's life seeking out shiny rings and boxes of dubloons just to have a nice nap on. Plus it's just an old fantasy cliche.

If dragons use gestures as well, they would have an advantage over human mages here.

If someone's story has intelligent dragons and they use gesutres when speaking they could always use a very different set of gestures than humans do. In Neil Gaiman's Coraline he had a talking cat character who though intelligent had it's very own set of gesturees that it used when talking that were distinctly feline. Why can't dragons do that you know? Have their own set of gestures that are distinctly reptilian.

The misuse of dragons in fantasy always bothered, me of course it's their own story and they can portray dragons all they want but I say have some logic to it you know? @_@;

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[info]limyaael
2003-12-25 06:22 pm UTC (link)
Hmm. I suppose I hadn't thought of gold being quite soft; it seemed to me that lying on spiky crowns, shifting coins, or bulky gold bars wouldn't be that soft. *grin* Also, if the dragon needs to keep breathing fire to warm the gold up, it seems it would interrupt its nap. But perhaps that's just the price one pays for a dragon on a hoard.

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[info]marumae
2003-12-26 12:11 am UTC (link)
*lol* Of course XD why didn't dragons think of that? But I suppose it was the very breath of the dragon itself plus the natural heat created from the fire within it's body that causes it warm. Also it's very very warm, very stinky breath heats the air around them too...stinky breath...eugh remind me never to look a dragon straight in the mouth X_X; Dear god what would happen if it burped?

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[info]kitkatfantsykat
2006-11-19 07:45 am UTC (link)
*hums*

I have this book (*horrible with titles*) that says that the reason that dragons collected jewels and whatnot was because they had soft underbellies, and so when they sleep on the jewels and coins and stuffs, they stick to their underbellies, thus creating some more protection. (hee...sticky dragon tummies. :P)

Then, also, I was thinking that maybe they would actually melt the gold some and then...ooh! PLOTBUNNY! XD

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[info]gwenaterra
2007-07-28 06:45 pm UTC (link)
Whats the website for the dragon information? I also have an obssession with them.

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[info]johnnymcbadass
2003-12-25 12:25 am UTC (link)
Another great post.

Never stop!

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[info]arabel
2003-12-25 06:12 am UTC (link)
*shamelessly fangirls you. Again*

These rants are so spot on. I'm getting so sick of lazy thinking in fantasy - reliance on acknowledged cliches and trends, and just moving things along quickly enough that poeple don't really stop and wonder.

I've been reading some Sherri S Tepper books recently, and of the few I've read I've really liked the way that she creates a world that works. Things aren't just put there with a "because that's the way it is". There so needs to be more of that!

Dammit, I have to get to reading all of your other stories too... :D

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[info]limyaael
2003-12-25 06:24 pm UTC (link)
I admire Tepper's skill in world creation, as well, though unfortunately the first I read by her was Singer from the Sea, which preached an ecofeminist message with all its heart. I'm going to try The Gate to Women's Country and see how that is, though.

And I agree that there needs to be more skilled world-creators; I'm about to ask for some recommendations...

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[info]clannoire
2003-12-25 07:47 am UTC (link)
Wonderful rant -- and it's about my favourite fantasy beast too! (Doesn't anybody out there actually hate dragons? Didn't think so. :) )

What reason would a dragon have to sleep on such a hard, cold bed of metal, when it’s a reptile?

I've always associated dragons with large golden hoards. It's a traditional fantasy cliche. :) And the hoard doesn't necessarily have to consist of gold -- all sorts of treasures and valuable metals/gems are included. As [info]maruemae said, Gold is actually a soft metal, and would be quite a suitable bed for a large, heat-emitting dragon (more suitable compared to, say, leaves or trees, which are flammable. :P ).

Besides using it as a bed, maybe dragons hoard treasure because they enjoy pretty things, and use them as some sort of decoration for their lairs.
Maybe dragons use their hoards as a status symbol -- the larger your hoard, the more important you are among your fellows.
Or maybe they use it as some sort of diversion -- like you asked, ... what do dragons do, other than hunting and sleeping? They scour the lands for treasure, they collect precious trinkets, they rob, they loot, they plunder. :) It's a sort of hobby.

My vision of the dragon is a sort of 'pirate' of the fantasy world. ;) Crafty, intelligent, and an appreciation for beautiful things. They are, always, really cool. ;D

By the way, just a slightly-unrelated question: What do you call a group of dragons? I've wondered this every time I come across dragons in fantasy, and reading your essay caused this question to surface.
Is it a flock of dragons? a herd? A flight of dragons? :P

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[info]gehayi
2003-12-25 10:27 am UTC (link)
It's a drive of dragons.

I know weird stuff about names of groups of animals. Like, a group of cats is a cluster, a clowder or a clutter. A group of frogs is an army. A group of ravens is an unkindness. A group of bears is a sleuth. A group of owls is a parliament. A group of larks is an exaltation. A group of unicorns is, for some reason, a blessing. (Doesn't that last one sound impossibly twee?)

Oh. And Merry Christmas, Happy Chanukah, Good Kwaanza, Joyous Solstice and/or Happy Midwinter Festival of your choice.





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[info]clannoire
2003-12-26 04:03 pm UTC (link)
An unkindness of ravens? O_o A parliment of owls? A ... blessing of unicorns? WICKED. :D You learn new things everyday! ;D

And happy holidays to you, too. :D It's Eid 'ul Fitr for me, but it doesn't really matter, since we're all wishing each other a generally rollicking good celebration, anyway. :)

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[info]gehayi
2003-12-26 04:38 pm UTC (link)
Thank you. What is Eid 'ul Fitr? It sounds like a holiday that might occur in Rohan.

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[info]odheirre
2004-01-11 04:56 pm UTC (link)
I've also heard a group of unicorns as (get this) a serenity of unicorns.

This was from Nick O'Donohough's The Magic and the Healing book.

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[info]venusrain
2007-07-01 04:09 am UTC (link)
And a glory, although that one isn't quite so rediculous.

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[info]kjkhyperion
2007-02-05 02:32 am UTC (link)
I believe a group of ravens is called a murder

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[info]gehayi
2007-02-05 03:07 am UTC (link)
No, it's a murder of crows and an unkindness of ravens.

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[info]the__birds
2008-01-05 10:39 am UTC (link)
According to Bruce Coville, a group of unicorns is a glory. I've always liked that one.

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[info]limyaael
2003-12-25 06:26 pm UTC (link)
Dragons as pirates! That's a new one. Though I would still wonder what they use the wealth for, since I doubt they spend it on rum and women. *grin*

Perhaps they have an incurable magpie complex, and get fascinated with shiny things for only a short time, then toss them aside. Then the owners could go to the lairs after a while and collect their old treasures- always providing the dragon didn't get fascinated again and demand it back.

That's a nice idea for a job: treasure hunter who goes around picking up the dragon's discards. Hmmm...

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[info]clannoire
2003-12-26 04:06 pm UTC (link)
Though I would still wonder what they use the wealth for, since I doubt they spend it on rum and women.

Oh dear -- I've just had the weirdest vision of dragons with hoards of rum instead of gold and kidnapping tavern wenches instead of princesses. *shivers* :P

That's a nice idea for a job: treasure hunter who goes around picking up the dragon's discards.

Profiting through mighty dangerous job, though. :) You have an idea for a story, don't you? ;D

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[info]sithjawa
2004-01-03 07:31 am UTC (link)
Maybe they use it to attract a handy food supply...

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BbHtrYoink
(Anonymous)
2003-12-25 01:46 pm UTC (link)
Just a comment that I've had in my head a while:

So many fantasy stories portray dragons eggs as perpetually warm. Why? Wouldn't the egg need all the heat it could get for the baby dragon developing inside, and none left over to give off as heat? If that were the case, the egg would be cold. And, just an idea that popped into my head this moment, wouldn't it be interesting if that related to the way dragon's hatched? Maybe they're too weak to actually break the shell, so instead have to melt it with their fire-breath. It would be so interesting to see from the outside: An egg, previously icy-cold, suddenly bubbling and flowing and melting to the ground, and out of the mess steps a very confused baby dragon, who's just seen the only home he knows melt around him, as a result of himself. (Could be a tramautic experience!)

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Re: BbHtrYoink
[info]eisoj5
2003-12-25 04:04 pm UTC (link)
That's a very good point. I'd never thought about endo/exothermic reactions in terms of eggs hatching before. Iiiinteresting. Plus, a melting egg would be neat. :)

-josie

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Re: BbHtrYoink
[info]limyaael
2003-12-25 06:27 pm UTC (link)
That's an excellent idea. I thought that dragon babies would be so warm they would just put out excess heat, but a cold and eventually melting egg is a much neater idea.

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Re: BbHtrYoink
[info]malloriel
2008-02-26 07:35 am UTC (link)
I myself have been approaching fantasy from a logical, and semi-quantum mechanical stand point (specifically where the laws of magic are concerned), and recent theory within the evolution of our own planet has lizard-like creatures that were neither warm-blooded, nor cold-blooded, but somewhere in between, which would be an interesting concept to put toward a dragon, and in several works of dragon fiction, it's been implied that dragons are none of the above, but do create their own warmth, startling humans interacting with them. The most recent I can state is The Dragon Quartet by Marjorie B. Kellogg, noted in the first book, The Book of Earth.

I personally prefer this view, and intend to incorporate it into my own works as well.

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[info]warnthepenguins
2003-12-26 01:00 am UTC (link)
About hand gestures:

One of the things that's always intrigued and confounded me regarding fantasy writing is sentience. There are so many competing theories about what traits are required before a creature has the leisure to begin evolving into a thinking race rather than an instinctive one that I hesitate to select one, lest I be proved wrong. Once I read a book about cat-people. It, as well as the smattering of science I'm aware of, supported the notion that bipedalism leads to sentience: a bipedal creature has the ability to use its hands for tools rather than locomotion, and a bipedal creature's spine enters the skull at the base, not the back, allowing it to have more room for a brain. And this raises the other question: which trait, larger braincase or free hands, results in sentience?
In another book I read, there were sentient whale-like creatures. This confused the narrator: it was too difficult to manipulate tools underwater, so how did the whales become sentient? When he ended up inside the whale's mouth, he understood--the creatures' tongues branched into tentacles, and were used for manipulation and toolmaking. I believe they had eyes both inside and outside their mouths as well.
So dragons might need an overhaul before they had the impetus to evolve sentience--they've got standard quadripedal heads, and their forelimbs are firmly planted on the ground. What's a scienciphilic author to do?

Oh yeah: Dragons could easily have big ol' hands with opposable thumbs, and be able to make all the necessary gestures.

Well, that was random. Sorry for going off on a pedantic tangent ^_^;

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[info]clannoire
2003-12-26 04:16 pm UTC (link)
Well ... sentience doesn't necessarily tool-making and inventions. For me, the definition of sentience simply means the ability to feel, to deduce right from wrong, to communicate, and to recognize.

In Ursula K. Le Guin's Earthsea series, she portrays dragons as sentient beings, but they are wild and free and untamed, and this untethered lifestyle doesn't require them to create tools and whatever. Interestingly enough, she always makes a vague mention that humans were once dragons a long time ago, but gained a humanoid form when we chose to pursue knowledge. But that's just her portrayal. :)

Anyway, if sentience was based on the ability to invent alone, remember that dolphins weren't the ones to build nuclear bombs and weapons of war. ;) Heehee.

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[info]warnthepenguins
2003-12-26 07:10 pm UTC (link)
Perhaps. Evolution works in mysterious ways...

Ancient lizard-crittur, slowly evolves to become bigger as the smaller ones are killed by...panthers. Meanwhile, the panthers are evolving, becoming faster and pointier. The big lizards suddenly are too slow to escape the panthers, so...so...How do dragons fly? It's a magical effect. It has to be. Or else they'd need truly ENORMOUS wings, and very light bodies. Okay, they evolve a defensive mechanism: flight, fire breath, etc. After they're basically invulnerable, they've got evolutionary free time. Now they can...can...but wait. If they're not bipedal, they'll have an awfully small braincase. But maybe that's the reason that dragons' heads are always so outsized when compared to other big lizards, like dinosaurs. So they slowly get bigger heads...because why? What's the impetus to develop smarts? And if dragons live for really long times, they'll evolve at a snail's pace. All right, well, whenever you run into a problem in fantasy, it's time to bring in a meddling magical force. So the dragons get smart. Somehow--either by genetic drift, natural selection (a sudden rise of Russian Roulette boardgames among the wild beasts?), or divine/magical intervention.

Whatever. And I don't think dolphins are sentient. They're smart, but not sentient.

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[info]sunatic
2009-02-02 03:07 am UTC (link)
Something in that theory still bothers me... What does the way the spine connects to the skull really have to do with how the brain evolves? Is there really only one direction the skull can give way? If there was a creature with handy room only on the sides of its skull, wouldn't a fortunate mutation perhaps put that space to use, making the skull wider instead of higher or longer?

The using of tools is also a flexible concept - does it have to be external tools? What if a species learns to use some part of their bodies to manipulate the world around them very efficiently and more and more creatively? Don't several creatures in the world already do stuff like that, for example spiders and octopi?

The thought of sentiency being dependant on walking on two feet also assumes that the starting point is four limbs, of which two are then converted for tool-using. Which is just silly.

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[info]warnthepenguins
2009-02-02 06:31 am UTC (link)
I agree completely!

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[info]irian
2004-01-02 03:24 pm UTC (link)
I still wonder why fantasy fiction never, ever seems to make use of Asian folklore's dragons for inspiration. Asian dragons are associated with water instead of fire, and they usually live in rivers and seas. I was in love with the concept of dragon kings who could raise up floods with their long, sinuous bodies. And yet at the same time these dragons can be benevolent towards humans, like the dragons from the tale of Urashima Taro, who married the dragon king's daughter. Talk about unexplored gold mine of ideas.

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Hoards
[info]rebi
2006-01-09 03:18 am UTC (link)
I believe another reason for dragons hoarding treasure is the fact that their underbellies are softer than the rest of their bodies (after all, that area doesn't get much direct sunlight, and a dragon isn't going to roll onto its back). Lying on the treasure gives a psychological comfort, and I think sometimes the gold pieces would stick to their bellies, so any knight that got a clean shot would have to take an extra moment to work around the coins, thus giving the dragon the time to "put them on the barby".

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[info]laraqua
2006-02-18 05:29 pm UTC (link)
It's Fantasy. They're Dragons! Thousands of years old. What? They couldn't just be telekinetic? "Look ma, no hands!"

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[info]syntheticpoetic
2006-05-27 07:38 am UTC (link)
I admit--I'm a dragon junkie. I wrote stories about dragon characters before I started writing about human characters (and man were they BAD =D). Heck, I wrote stories about dragons before I could actually WRITE them. Though I've grown up and returned to my own species, I still use them as prominent background figures in many of my stories (or roleplaying campaigns). I am such a geek. So, naturally, I was thrilled silly when someone directed me to this rant. I've been going through your collection for a while and you're my new hero. Or something.

Anyway, it's nice to see someone covering some of the trite overdone issues on the topic of these particular magical deathlizards, especially since I try so very hard to avoid them. I'll admit--the 'hoarding tendencies' is one of my favorites to play with and I've tampered reasons spanning from mundane and pragmatic to myth and societal to actual physiological and evolutionary issues. In individual stories the "Lady Grey" with her political contributions and manipulations to get the human kingdoms on her turf to wipe each other out with war is one of my favorites, as is the widespread search for the jewel heart of their forebearer Zhetheralmulas the Firesong. But I may be biased.

And thank you for pointing out that dragons are not easy kills. Though I have one 'legendary hero' theoretically responsible for the slaying of many many a dragon he's not as 'responsible' for them as the legends make him out to be, and this is one of my biggest pet peeves. Followed closely by the strict good/evil malice/benevolence thing in general. If dragons were easy kills, no one would be worried about them. They would not strike awe and amazement and just a teeeeny little twinge of mortal fear into our hearts. Even the most inept dragon should still give the greatest of heroes reason to step back and go 'now wait a minute, is this damsel REALLY worth the trouble?'. In one of my stories I have a dragon named Vekerhed who is fat and lazy and spoiled rotten =Dsomething of a glutton, and too fat to take to the air or even move very ably by the time some yutzes get up the gall to come try slaying him. And he STILL manages to kill several of them before he goes down (no, he doesn't roll over on them ^^;). Too often killing the local dragon is as easy as dispatching the local guardsman or a troublesome wild animal. . .and that just isn't right.

Anyway, I haven't slept for days and I probably shouldn't be boring you with random details from my poorly-written fantasy fiction. I really just wanted to give you kudos and let you know I'm putting you on the old stalker friends list. The sleepless rambling was not intentional. Yeee-haw.

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Responses.
[info]slimshadowen
2006-06-04 01:16 am UTC (link)
Using Dungeons and Dragons.

1) In D&D, dragons aren't reptiles. They're...well, they're dragons. Like dinosaurs: not reptiles, not birds, certainly not mammals or fish or amphibians. But dinosaurs. This is taken to a massive level in D&D. In D&D, all creatures have a type. This can be humanoid, monstrous humanoid, giant, outsider, elemental, undead, animal, aberration, magical beast, ooze, construct...and dragon.

Dragons do not just hoard gold, or even coin, but treasure of all types. Art, jewels, magical items, and so on. Treasure is beautiful and pleasing to the eye, and some dragons are just covetous by nature. Plus, dragons being able to subsist on nearly anything, it makes for an interesting meal in a pinch.

Dragons get larger and stronger, both in mind and body, with age, up to about 1200 years. From there, they start a decline, called Twilight, which can last for millennia.

2) The most numerous dragons, if they can be said to be such, are the metallic (gold, silver, bronze, brass, copper) and chromatic (red, blue, green, black, white) dragons. Metallic tend strongly towards good; chromatic tend strongly towards evil. Outside of them, there are planar dragons, which take on aspects of the plane they dwell in, including morality and ethics (a dragon found in a heaven plane, for example, is a paragon of virtue). There are gem dragons, who possess psionics instead of magic and tend to be rather self-absorbed, i.e. neutral with regards to morality. And then there are the esoteric dragon breeds, such as shadow dragons, deep dragons, fang dragons, song dragons, and so on, each of which has a "most common" moral "alignment". In the Eberron campaign setting, dragons are free of alignment restrictions. An evil gold dragon is as likely as a good red dragon is as likely as a lawful fang dragon.

3) Draconic society does not really exist. However, their race can live for thousands of years (some can even become truly immortal, literal demigods), so they have their own language (and alphabet). The oldest magic-users in most worlds, their influence is that many obscure, old, or especially powerful magics are written or found most commonly in Draconic. When it comes to making things, most dragons can shapeshift into human form for fine manipulation (whether of objects or people) when necessary.

In the Eberron setting, dragons have a society, a continent and a racial purpose. They never fight each other, despite often-clashing alignments, because they are all absorbed in contemplating the Prophecy, an ancient text that no one seems to really understand...even the dragons.

4) Most of them sleep a lot. Some sleep so long that they can't get out of their lair without forming a new path, as they've grown too big. Younger dragons tend to be active, whether rampaging or crusading. Older dragons tend towards being watchful, only taking a direct hand when they're really needed--and when a dragon's physical presence is needed, some bad shit is going down.

5) Dragons are the strongest creatures in D&D. By the time they reach great wyrm status, the most powerufl are scores of feet long, stronger than titans, smarter than some gods, with all the charisma of Jesus. The only place they "suffer" is physical grace, which, for dragons as a whole, remains average for a creature of their size. Without using the epic level rules, the big dragons--gold and red--are given the highest "challenge rating" of any creature in the game, even higher than the nigh-unkillable Tarrasque. Going you get...bigger, more powerful breeds of dragon, such as the godlike prismatic dragon. (It is my contention that using one template and one class, a paragon prismatic Dragon Ascendant is the most powerful possible creature in D&D, stronger even than any god's avatar.) Dragons of all types have great natural resistance to magical and physical punishment.

6) Magic of the same type is the same for all creatures that can achieve it, likely for game balance purposes. Dragons are natural sorcerers; besides their physical prowess, even the dumbest breeds have some ability as a spellcaster. And yes, deafening, quieting, or binding a dragon would be much more difficult than with a humanoid caster.

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You forgot a cliche
[info]mithrel
2006-07-16 09:35 am UTC (link)
I've found that most dragons can talk circles around anyone who comes into contact with them. Apart from that there's the "dragon-fear/hypnotizing gaze" cliche, which is not quite as overused, but still prevalent.

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[info]mithrel
2006-07-31 11:13 pm UTC (link)
I've friended you by the way, and this rant inspired me to invent my own type of dragon.

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[info]sarah_w_lvr
2006-09-20 01:54 am UTC (link)
This is just a thought, but could the book by Roger Zelany be the Chronicles of Amber?

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[info]sphericaltime
2006-12-22 08:35 am UTC (link)
I think she's referring to the short story "Prince Delightful and the Flameless Dragon" which is by Isaac Asimov, not Zelany. It's in a collection called "Once Upon A Time: A treasury of modern fairy tales."

Part of the story is about a Dragon that's looking for a mate, but the whole thing is a twist of common fairy tale cliches.

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[info]hazgarn
2007-11-15 11:52 am UTC (link)
The story is called "The George Business". I've never read it, but I consider myself fan enough of Zelazny to take a look for it. It can be found in the collection Unicorn Variations.

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[info]farseer_lolotea
2009-01-23 04:09 pm UTC (link)
I know...necromancy.  But if I recall correctly, it can also be found in the anthology Dragons of Light (edited by Orson Scott Card).

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[info]sarah_w_lvr
2006-09-20 02:00 am UTC (link)
These rants are helping me a ton in my writings!I've added a couple things in just to use your ideas!

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[info]naziria
2007-01-10 06:13 am UTC (link)
Nice rant!

It even makes me feel a bit proud of my dragons. They are about as smart as a dog, and as my magic system allows them to use magic for vision, they have lost their sight, as well as the ability to hear or smell.

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[info]kitsuru
2009-02-22 04:35 am UTC (link)
I've always had a soft spot for dragons, and this rant brought me back to the days when I would pick up a random fantasy book with a dragon on the cover, read a few pages, and put it down and back away slowly. After all, it could be that the author left whatever they had on the book, even though they probably never physically touched it.

Although you did miss something that always irked me: dragon-human partnerships. Specifically, dragon-human partnerships in which the human is the one in charge.

Dragons tend to be large, and have many pointy parts (to put it simply). Many can also breathe fire. Why is it that even the supposedly-intelligent dragons need to listening to an annoying little creature who spends (usually) his time on its back, doing nothing but giving it orders or in some cases launching a long-distance attack or two? Sure, some humans would be brighter than some dragons, but it would probably go the other way around as well in a fantasy world where we have been told that the draconic denizens were as intelligent as the humans. It just never made sense to me.

Although with the love of gold, I always had a theory that it might have had something to do with mating. Originally, it might have just been anything shiny enough to catch the eye of a potential mate, but if intelligent dragons have enough interaction with humans; then the reverence with which we treat gold, silver, and precious gems might rub off on them somewhat, and eventually lead to their exclusive attraction to the more valuable treasures. Besides, assuming that the dragons in question are as intelligent as we are, they would eventually realize that humanity was trying to take advantage of them when buying, trading, and selling goods, giving them almost worthless cast-offs in comparison to items or coins which could, in turn, be traded for proportionately greater additions to their hoard. They would probably sleep on the hoards due to territorial instincts, if someone was going after what had originally attracted their mate then subconsciously the dragon might believe that the thief would be going after said mate as well.

I hope you don't mind, I'm adding you to my friends list. You just made me realize that the dragons I was considering writing about came too close to comfort to being scaly elves. Now, my protagonist will still visit the mountains seeking their help (they live in a system of tunnels that goes through and beneath a mountain range, due to a need for security following the spread of dragophobia about a hundred years before the start of the story.) he'll be laughed out. Assuming that they even bother listening to him in the first place. I'd like to keep an eye out for whatever you write next! ^.^

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Dragons and their hoards
[info]gepetto887
2009-03-21 10:07 pm UTC (link)
I read a post on RPG.net once which explained that dragons used their hoards of treasure as memory aids.

In a nutshell:

Dragons have pretty good memories, all things considered, after a few centuries of little-to-no contact with others of their kind, and several long naps each a decade or more in length, they start to lose their sense of time, and get a bit senile.

So dragons use their treasure as a mnemonic device, with every little detail- whether it's the exact number of pearls in that golden chalice, or the size of the pearls, or the tilt of the chalice itself- adding up to form a record of their life.

This is why dragons get so ticked off about people coming in and stealing their treasure. These stupid little talking meals come in like the own the cave, and steal the dragon's MEMORY. They literally regard the treasure as an extension of their own self, seeing as how it preserves their identity.

Seeing as how dragons came around before any of the other races, they didn't quite realize how many people would be breaking in to steal their memories, but lately there's a been a bit of confusion amongst adventurers as the last three dragons to be killed have been discovered to have hoards of... colorful seashells, twigs, leaves, and pebbles.

...

There was another post that the dragons had purchased their powers from the gods. Their massive hoards are an attempt to gather enough treasure to pay off their debt.

I don't enjoy that one as much though, for some reason.

Always,
robert mason

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