Limyaael ([info]limyaael) wrote,
@ 2003-12-29 13:15:00
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Current mood: contemplative
Entry tags:fantasy rants: winter 2003, world-building: medieval, world-building: society

Medieval societies in fantasy.
Given the subject matter of the rant today, I think a few lines from Swinburne’s “Tristram of Lyonesse,” a long Arthurian poem, are appropriate.

...and up forthright upon his steed
Leapt, as one blithe of battle, Palamede,
And mightily with shock of horse and man
They lashed together: and fair that fight began
As fair came up that sunrise: to and fro,
With knees nigh staggered and stout heads bent low
From each quick shock of spears on either side,
Reeled the strong steeds heavily, haggard-eyed
And heartened high with passion of their pride
As sheer the stout spears shocked again, and flew
Sharp-splintering: then, his sword as each knight drew,
They flashed and foined full royally, so long
That but to see so fair a strife and strong
A man might well have given out of his life
One year's void space forlorn of love or strife.



Obviously, how rigorously these will apply will depend on how close your fantasy society is to our world’s real medieval age. If it’s an alternate history or fantastorical, then of course you’ll want to do more research than if it’s just the typical medieval-like fantasyland. Even then, though, there are some elementary things to keep in mind.

1) Keep the consequences of your inheritance laws realistic. The most common system in medieval fantasy seems to be primogeniture, the inheritance of everything by the eldest son. However, this didn’t mean in the medieval world that other siblings were cast out with nothing on their backs, or that no provision was made for them. I’ve read a few medieval fantasies in which noble parents care only about their eldest son and leave the others to starve.

Not the way it worked. Having extra children was an advantage in medieval society, as long as the parents could afford to feed them. There was always a chance the eldest son would die, either in childhood (mortality for children was extremely high), or in war or an accident or a plague. So more heirs would be needed. If the eldest son succeeded without trouble, the younger sons would find careers in other places, often in positions in court, as long as the family had good ties there. Daughters would be married off. Noble parents might easily look to make connections through their daughters. Who would all the eldest sons marry, after all, if families produced only eldest sons? The bride’s parents would have to pay a dowry, but it might be considered a small pittance for the political connections that would result, and for having their grandchildren in high positions.

If you have another system in place, such as the complicated bargain that Henry VIII worked out (his son inheriting first, then his firstborn daughter Mary, then his second daughter Elizabeth), then keep the consequences realistic there, too. The other siblings might not be valued that much in comparison to the one who stood to inherit first, but they’re unlikely to be beaten and locked up in closets, either.

2) Characters won’t know that much. Most people in the medieval era didn’t know how to read or write. For most people, it was considered irrelevant to their daily lives; peasants wouldn’t be in the habit of writing letters or books, and the nobles could afford trained scribes on those rare instances when messages were necessary. Copying of books was left up to monks in monasteries, and sometimes to paid scribes. For example, Eleanor of Aquitaine loved reading romances, and since she had lots of money, she could pay to have them written or copied. But most people in a medieval fantasyland are not going to have that kind of money.

Even if you have a world in which there exist people like academies of mages with a need for books, these should still be rare and expensive, and a random peasant character shouldn’t be able to read them automatically. The same thing goes for other disciplines like mathematics, alchemy, and magic, if you have it as a formal study. There are people who can learn them, but the knowledge wouldn’t randomly appear in anyone in any household, and a character who wanted to learn this knowledge would have to attract a teacher’s attention in some way.

3) Women shouldn’t have that many rights without a very good reason. Only exceptional women in England before Elizabeth I had much power. Eleanor of Aquitaine was feared by her husband and sons for her meddling in politics, and as a result kept locked up for a good portion of her life. Other noblewomen passed from father to husband without a say in their own lives; if they outlived their husbands, their sons usually had power over them. Peasant women worked beside their husbands, rearing children and farming and preparing food without much of a chance to think about equal rights. One reason feminism got the push it did long after the medieval period was the improvement in technology that could free some women from labor long enough to think, as well as improving standards of education (not a priority in a medieval society; see the second point) and higher standards of living generally. If you have a world with a middle class, it might be more realistic for the women to have time to philosophize about their position and start a movement, or be the usual “I don’t wanna be a lady!” types (who usually do nothing to help anyone but themselves). If your society is strictly medieval, however, it’s difficult to see where women will get the time or education to question their position.

If you’ve made alterations to the medieval world so that witches or other free women of power exist, then try to make the consequences realistic. If other women are still considered subordinate, then men are likely to fear these women’s power. If the free women are considered special and not attacked, why is that? Is it fear of their power, bargains with them that have these women providing magic or whatever it is they do in exchange for not having to live ordinary women’s lives, or something else? And are these women attempting to free others, and why? One point of feminist scholarship is that until recently women weren’t taught to think of other women as allies; they were taught to see themselves as part of a class, a family, or some other unit that had nothing to do with gender. If you have female characters who are for “women’s rights,” then you’ll have to explain where these ideas came from, and how some women just managed to shatter the usual education and social conditioning to have them.

4) Remember that medieval life was not clean. To some extent, I brought this up in the teenage rant; why do all these teenage characters have flawless skin and clean hair all the time without the benefit of facial cream or shampoo? But it’s especially important in a medieval society where magic isn’t common enough to be used for such things. Showers were unknown. Enough water to take a bath would require a lot of servants to haul it, and since servants have to do other things, this probably wouldn’t happen every day, either. Perfume would be used to cover the scents of sweat, among those who could afford it. Those who couldn’t (peasants, serfs, and yeomen) would just live with the stink.

Bugs on humans would be quite common as well, given the close proximity in which medieval humans lived to animals. Remember that the Black Plague was spread by rat fleas, which says something about how unconcerned the humans were with driving both animals away. A noble would probably have cleaner living conditions than a peasant, but fleas, lice, and other bugs would still be common, especially if the nobles shared their homes with animals like hounds. The floors in a medieval home will probably be covered with fresh rushes, which absorb a great deal of the mess but still stink until they’re changed. Dental and health care is almost nonexistent, meaning that people have bad teeth and die early, especially in childhood. Crowded living conditions mean that diseases like the plague spread very easily. Problems with the water encourage diseases like cholera. In a town, if you have a society based more on the Renaissance, garbage is often dumped in the street, and few cities would be able to afford enough people to keep the streets sparkling clean.

Does this mean you need to mention all the down-and-dirty details? Probably not. Does it mean that I want an explanation for Krystalynne, the princess who takes a bath every day and has flawless teeth and skin and no bugs at all in that shining hair of hers? Oh, yes.

5) Travel is rare and dangerous and takes a long time. If your characters live near the sea, it will probably take less time than almost anywhere else, but the means will probably be by sailing ship and galley. That means that journeys will be delayed by the whims of the wind and the strength of the rowers, and will have to respond to the wind and tide; the characters can’t just leave whenever they like. Ships can also spend months at sea, if they’re on a journey across an ocean as wide as the Atlantic was, and get blown off course or destroyed entirely by storms. There’s also the risk of disease on board ship and mutiny from sailors that aren’t treated well, and the risk of piracy. Sea journeys should never be entirely safe.

On land and without magic, there will be travel by foot; by horses and similar animals; and by carts and carriages drawn by animals. And that’s it. If your characters are peasants, they probably can’t afford carriages, and any person of low birth riding a fine horse runs the risk of being charged as a horse thief, even if he isn’t. Horse thievery was a serious crime, and could be punished with death.

Noble characters can probably afford carriages and horses without trouble, but it’s still an uncomfortable way to travel, and can take days or weeks to reach the destination. There are also dangers on the road. Many knights in our world’s own medieval period made a habit of kidnapping noble hostages to hold for ransom, and highwaymen would rob, rape, and kill if they could get away with it. Women should never be traveling unescorted by men if they aren’t protected by some heavy-duty magic. They would make too tempting a target for robbery and rape, and even if they are nobles and ransomed, their captors are unlikely to treat them kindly while they’re in their care.

6) Remember that most medieval societies are highly hierarchical. That means no random peasants getting in to see the king just because. A royal progress from village to village would be one thing, but in most ordinary situations, peasants would be far distant from the centers of power, and may know the king only as a rumor and a distant name, like the Pope. If they’re serfs, they would be bound to the land and couldn’t simply leave it to ask for justice. Even yeomen would probably spend a lot more money in travel expenses and more time away from their fields than would be worth it to them.

Nobles in an absolute monarchy will have more chance to gain royal favor, but will still have to gain it. If SpunkyGirl Generic gets the king’s attention just by being perky, I’ll be looking into the sky of the fantasy world for flying pigs. A pretty girl might win more attention, but since arranged marriages were common in medieval society, she would be more likely to end up a mistress than a wife. Bribes, family connections, shows of wealth and power, and manipulations would be the means of winning the king’s favor and climbing to high positions, and no one should start leapfrogging over social classes just because.

Finally, it should not be as easy as pie for characters from one social class to pass for another. For one thing, how are they going to get hold of the proper clothes? England actually had sumptuary laws detailing what members of certain social classes could wear, and many of the finer cloths would be beyond a peasant’s price range. Peasants stealing from nobles could expect harsh justice, if they got justice at all. Similarly, nobles were not supposed to dress up as peasants. For another thing, they wouldn’t know anything about each other’s manners. This is often represented in fantasy as peasants failing comically at understanding things like cutlery, but it works the other way around, too; nobles on farms would be unlikely to slop out pigs correctly, never mind any more complex task.



I probably didn’t get everything, but I think I targeted most of what bugs the shit out of me in medieval fantasies.




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[info]marumae
2003-12-29 06:46 pm UTC (link)
O___O

Do you have any idea how helpful this is? XD *takes notes*. Great advice as always! I don't suppose you can...help a poor Marumae out by giving her a rundown of basic society pointers for a victorian society? In my story my main empire in my world socially is very much akin to Victorian England, but in terms of it's government. It's still run with a Roman mentaility of the "Empire" and such? Do you have any pointers for me to make these two different things work together? v_v; I can only think of one person to ask for help and that of course is you xD.

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[info]limyaael
2003-12-30 07:46 pm UTC (link)
Glad this helped! As far as making the ideas of Empire and a Victorian Society fit together, I think they already do to a large extent. For example, there was a current of thought in Victorian England that women should also feel they were part of the Empire's victories, since they brought up the sons who would become soldiers. Britian's people also sometimes felt they were the "civilizing" force for a good part of the world, teaching the "savages" to behave better. That's not so far from the things like roads and culture that the Romans brought into the territory they conquered.

History books would probably help you best of all, but you won't have to work hard at all to get the ideas to mesh, I think.

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[info]kjkhyperion
2007-02-05 03:10 am UTC (link)
Victorian England held the Roman empire in great consideration. It was considered an ideal model of ethics and morality, based on completely wrong assumptions and overly romantic concepts of "classical beauty". The sexual inhibitions of their culture were similarly based on gross misunderstandings and wishful thinking about the "enlightened" and "uncorrupted" people of the world past.

Boy, were they in for a big surprise when Pompeii was unearthed! The ancients' vastly different attitude about sexuality was considered so shocking that for years no women nor uncultured men were allowed to visit the ruins!

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[info]warnthepenguins
2003-12-29 06:54 pm UTC (link)
I need to go back to my story and add in some river traffic! I can't believe I forgot all about it! Heh-eh-hee. Oops.

People tell me "Oh, I wish I lived in medieval times!" and I say "No, no you don't."

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[info]gehayi
2003-12-29 11:40 pm UTC (link)
I'd like to add to your comments, if I may.

7. Standards of beauty were very different. It was common, for example, for medieval women to wear their headdresses in such a way as to expose their naked foreheads. Widely-spaced teeth were supposed to indicate lustiness of disposition.

Slenderness doesn't appear to have been quite the issue with medieval people that it is with us, probably because slenderness was more common. After all, food was less available, both in quantity and in variety. A thin girl was probably undernourished, and might well prove to be too frail to do hard work or to survive childbirth. Remember that for centuries, painters and sculptors portrayed women our society would consider fat as being queens and goddesses of love.

8. There shouldn't be a lot of variety to your peasant's diet. Bread (a coarse mixture of wheat and rye, or barley and rye), pottage and ale...those were the mainstays. Cheese wasn't always available, nor were eggs, nor were beans. Meat would be too costly to buy, and would probably only be available at certain times of the year. Pork around Michaelmas was common, because that was when the pigs were slaughtered, and their meat salted, cured and brought to market. And please remember--if your peasants live in a village, it's probably a village owned by a local lord, so any hunting or fishing your peasants do constitutes poaching...a fairly serious offense.

Also, try to keep track of what is available when and where. If your medieval fantasy is set in Europe, DON'T have your peasants eating potatoes as a staple of their diet; those were discovered in America in the seventeenth century.

9. People didn't live as long. Old age was considered to begin around forty-five. Eleanor of Aquitaine, who was universally described as a beautiful woman (and who lived an exceptionally long time), was nevertheless considered to be past her best and leaving her childbearing years when she was twenty-six. And diseases were common--partly because of uncleanliness, partly from diets poor in protein, partly from the fact that people were in constant proximity and caught things from each other.

10. Medieval society contains more classes than a roleplaying game does. Consequently, your society should contain more professions than those of soldier, noble, beggar, thief, magic-user and priest/priestess. Remember that medieval society is going to need people who do the work--it's a product economy, not an information one. Your society will need farmers, fishermen, artisans such as carpenters and stonemasons, boatwrights, chandlers, coopers, brewers, vintners and blacksmiths. There should be wool merchants, dyesmiths, tailors, seamstresses, silversmiths, goldsmiths, bronzesmiths, lapidaries, traveling merchants, potters, makers of vellum and ink and quills, midwives and so on. In the country, there will be cottars (who do a bit of everything), goatherds, shepherds, swineherds. There should be variety in your world; it makes a much better story.

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[info]marumae
2003-12-30 12:56 am UTC (link)
O_____________________O


*furiously adds to her notes*

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[info]limyaael
2003-12-30 07:51 pm UTC (link)
Very good. I especially like the bit about not having American plants in a world where America hasn't been discovered; that kind of thing annoys me when the author has tried to do research into other areas, yet somehow missed that bit.

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[info]sailor_tech
2005-01-31 04:35 am UTC (link)
It's refered to the potato trap in the new age / pagan community. All to many writers of "Irish" paganism books will put in "ancient" potato based dishes.

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[info]lunaesia
2005-10-28 04:17 am UTC (link)
Beans are a New World thing, aren't they? I'm pretty sure the only legumes Europe had were chickpeas and lentils.

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[info]feste
2005-11-06 12:27 pm UTC (link)
Tomatoes, also. And peppers, bell and chili. Corn, of course. And yes, most beans. Most kinds of squash.

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[info]mauvedragon
2007-08-05 10:48 am UTC (link)
Actually people didn't live as long isn't actually accurate.

See http://www.sirguillaume.com/Downloads/Old_Age-Height-Nutrition.pdf

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[info]nichol_storm
2003-12-30 12:48 am UTC (link)
As an addendum to number one, the inheritance laws of medieval societies influenced family dynamics as well. Brothers and sisters often formed very close bonds, while two brothers might not, due to being in competition for the inheritance.

There are also lots of cases of mothers favoring a younger son over the eldest and even trying to get the elder disinherited so that the younger could succeed to the family titles and land. I remember one case in particular, where a young nobleman murdered his mother's lover and to get revenge she testified before a court of law that her son was illegitimate. He lost his entire inheritance.

In another, even more shocking case, the Duke of Brittany declared on his deathbed that his only son and until then recognized heir, Hoel, was in fact a bastard. Hoel was disinherited and his elder sister Berthe became Duchess. In another twist, Berthe and Hoel began an incestuous affair (!!!) and her husband died under mysterious circumstances (supposedly due to a broken heart from her adultery, but I have my doubts). The laws of inheritance influenced relations between family members greatly and sometimes disastrously.

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[info]limyaael
2003-12-30 07:53 pm UTC (link)
Excellent cases in point. If more people writing medieval fantasies used those kinds of things, it would be a lot more interesting to read about than, "Daughters and youngest sons are the pretty and clever ones but are despised, elder brother is a bully and favored, wash, rinse, repeat."

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[info]arabel
2003-12-30 01:12 am UTC (link)
Damn straight.

By the way, did you know you've made an appearance in an essay thingamie? *grins*

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[info]limyaael
2003-12-30 07:54 pm UTC (link)
I knew, yes, but thank you for noticing. *grin*

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[info]arabel
2004-01-02 05:32 am UTC (link)
It's all good. *grins*

Arabel
Middle-earth PR, signing off. *salutes*

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[info]nextian
2004-02-12 07:29 pm UTC (link)
I've noticed that all this bears on MEDIEVAL fantasy. Are there any other kinds? I'm attempting to write a more "primordial" fantasy, with a hunter-gatherer human society and violent clans in the other species. Have you read anything like this that works?

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Hierarchical society..
[info]ultimateagentr
2005-01-09 08:13 pm UTC (link)
Once again, wanted to point out something interesting about trying to ascend through social classes. Most War of the Roses histories point out a few people like Lord Hastings, who started out as a minor country squire. However, through political and military skill, he managed to get tons of land grants and the title of the Lord Chamberlain. At the same time, there were not many like him and it was only possible during a civil war. It took indomitable willpower for him to rise that far, and he probably would have been unable to do it if he hadn't already been a squire.

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[info]kokibi
2005-09-09 02:07 pm UTC (link)
Depends on which medival period you take as a base, though. Other countries(for example, asian ones) had completely different literacy rates. I remember Japan, for example, which had temple schools for peasants, which allowed quite a lot of them to read. And their language is a LOT more complex than ours, with many, many signs to remember. It thus is reasonable for a fantasy society to have similar structures, especially with an european alphabet.

Furthermore, on the woman <-> power thing...that's mostly romantic, where the woman = damsel was idealized. Earlier...There were quite a lot of women who, for example, commanded the army of their husband in his stead while he was, oh, sick, away, or dead. Many noble women also knew how to defend themselves - most noble lords wouldn't like to have their wife defenseless in their castle when he's out campaigning, right?
There were female scholars, wifes who published in the name of their husband(that was a very common phenomenon, actually, as was wifes participating quite equally in the research of her husband), or women who ran merchant houses(for example by indeed having a token husband). I think that enforcing the clichee of "subservant women all the time" is as bad as other clichees, since it is not that true in even our own history. Some, like Hildegard von Bingen, even were known as great scholars all on their own, others heaved popes into their position or moderated during negotiatons(there was such a case around 1000 or 1100, in fact).

Laws and the norms of society are one thing, but there will always be people who do not do as norms tell them to. They're not all that rare. So I see no reason why a fictional character should have to be less realistic than actual human people. I agree with pretty much all of your rants, save 2 and 3 of this one. It's simply not true. Sadly, usually as far as the medival period is considered, one usually only considers clichees made in the romantic period, when medival european society got glorified and streamlined. Completely ignoring that, for example, pretty much every village had a witch(the german word for which is Hexe, meaning a woman who is sidding on the hedge(= hecke-> hexe) between town and nature), or a hebamme(a woman who helps other woman bearing their children and who also knows a lot more about medicine than most), both women who had a lot of power in the village - they were pretty much village healers.
Sure, they disappeared after a certain period, because the Inquisition burned them. One of the reasons was that they quite often rivalled the position of the village cleric in terms of social power.

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[info]onyxflame
2006-02-16 02:00 am UTC (link)
Laws and the norms of society are one thing, but there will always be people who do not do as norms tell them to.

Very true, but if everybody violates the norms, they're not really norms are they? While it's quite possible for someone to not act like they're supposed to and even be successful with it, at the very least there'd be a lot of talk about them, and not all of it would be good. *ponders writing a story with the peasant-becomes-king bit where everyone hates his guts for doing so and finds or invents nasty rumors to discredit him* :P

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[info]onyxflame
2006-02-16 03:00 am UTC (link)
Showers were unknown. Enough water to take a bath would require a lot of servants to haul it, and since servants have to do other things, this probably wouldn’t happen every day, either.

Actually, my novel has an interesting way of dealing with this (which may or may not actually be too realistic, but it was nano and I needed to waste some wordcount describing the practice :P).

It's apparently common for people in at least one of my cities to collect rainwater in a barrel on top of the house, and there's a pluggable hole in the bottom of the barrel and the roof, and when someone wants to take a bath they just unplug the hole and let water flow in to fill up a tub underneath. Some tubs even have a drain connected to a short pipe which goes through the wall and dumps the bathwater in their yard or wherever. Otherwise, they have to take the tub out and dump it themselves. They also heat stones up in the fireplace and stick them in the water to heat it up a bit.

Now, probably the most unrealistic thing about this is that they'd hafta have a damn strong roof so that it wouldn't cave in under the weight of all that water. That and the fact that you'd think all that water sitting up there would force the plug loose and the house would get randomly flooded, not to mention it'd have to be a VERY tight plug to avoid random small leaks. (And a bath in winter would be pretty much impossible, but that's no different from any other medieval bathing custom.) But I thought it was a neat and unusual system, and I can probably eventually figure out ways around those problems.

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[info]wulfila
2006-02-21 05:13 pm UTC (link)
Women shouldn’t have that many rights without a very good reason

Hm. I don't know. This is doubtlessly true if you base your fantasy setting closely on the real Middle Ages, but I do not think it would be inconceivable to develop a fantasy society that is medieval in some aspects (feudal system/level of technology/warfare/architecture/music, etc.), but has greater gender equality than the historical Middle Ages did, because of different religious/philosophical/ethical standards. As [info]kokibi pointed out, there are examples of women in a stronger position even in the real Middle Ages, and I do not believe that creating a world in which such examples are less rare would necessarily make a story bad.

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[info]laraqua
2006-02-22 05:47 am UTC (link)
What I hate is when they actively show women in subservient roles as chef, cleaner, etc. but don't show any of the strength of women in such roles nor the anger that can be involved in maintaining such roles. After all, if women are seen to be very inferior, some will see them much like dogs, and are hardly going to talk rationally to some spoilt brat. Quite the contrary, while they might not get violent, they'll be 'unreasonable' by this day and age's standards. In fact, most of those freedom-thinking woman leader would be thought of as abnormal, even by her own men, even if they did respect her, they'd assume SOMETHING was wrong with her.

NB: Not ALL men would assume this about ALL strong women. But MOST men would assume this about MOST women.

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[info]sarah_w_lvr
2006-09-20 12:49 am UTC (link)
I LOVE these! I'm printing them all as fast as I can -- even helping my English Grade! Risen from a C- to a B!

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[info]book_worm5
2007-06-23 02:52 am UTC (link)
I can't remember where it was, but at least once I remember reading something where the street-urchin/orphan adoptee type was awed by the fact the wizard still had all his teeth. :-)

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[info]sidewalk_doctor
2008-02-28 09:58 am UTC (link)
Seriously, I love you for writing this. This whole rant is pretty much my thoughts exactly, but better than I could've said it. This should be required reading for every aspiring fantasy author.

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