Limyaael ([info]limyaael) wrote,
@ 2004-02-03 18:53:00
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Current mood: bouncy
Entry tags:fantasy rants: winter 2004, world-building: medieval

Castles.
I have a book called Very Bad Poetry. It's one of the most hilarious things in existence. And Fred Emerson Brooks, one of the worst poets ever to walk the earth, is in there.

Sampling:

From a patriotic poem:

Fear not, grand eagle
The bay of the beagle!

From a baby talk poem:

There ain't much edutation
In such a 'little head;
Besides, I is so s'eepy
And wants to do to bed...

Something's seeping around here, all right.



I’m not necessarily going to say a whole lot about real castles; these are annoyances I’ve noticed with fantasy castles. But then, since I am talking about fantasy anyway, I don’t think this is a great problem.

1) Keep the geography of the castle straight in your head. Draw a map, if that helps you, or a floorplan. Or write out a description (what I always end up doing, since I still have trouble drawing a simple chair). I’ve read far too many fantasy books where the castle was basically “dungeons are down, battlements are up, but everything in between changes around as I, the author, need it to change.”

It’s annoying and confusing to realize that the great hall is described as being next to the library at one point, and then the library has somehow gotten on the other side of the castle near the kitchen later in the book. It can sometimes be explained as more than one room having the same designation. Perhaps there is a “library” that’s more like a study for the king and another that’s full of actual books. But if that’s the case, name them that way from the beginning, and make it clear. Even better, show a first-time visitor to the castle getting confused about it. Then you have the excuse of explaining the odd name designation. And best, just have distinct names, even if they’re the same in your floorplan or map.

Another point on this is that you should know about how long it will take someone to walk or run anywhere, taking into mind annoyances like servants in the way or loose roof tiles. I’ve read fantasy books that kept the geography of the castle the same, but a five-minute walk suddenly becomes a ten-minute run when the author wants to increase the danger and the chance of the hero not getting there in time. Try the other way around for a sense of realism.

2) No random secret passages just because. Secret passages that lead to the outside of the castle and were intended for escape or bringing in supplies during sieges at least make sense, even though I find them ridiculously overused. (What are the chances both that a spy would miss them and that the one or two people who always know where they are would survive the attack?) Passages that go between random rooms make no sense. Nor do passages that lead into libraries everyone knows about, or into attics where only junk is stored, or between bedrooms that could be reached by sneaking around in the open much more easily.

Think about it. It takes time and money to build secret passages, and most of them must have been built at the time the castle was constructed; surely someone would have noticed if, hundreds of years later, piles of rock were lying around in two bedrooms while a passage was built. (This is the problem I have with the “these two ancient people were lovers and built the passage between their rooms.” How, exactly?) They have to be fitted into the construction of the castle somehow, as well as kept secret. And that’s its own problem. Either the king murders the masons, or he pays them enough to shut up, or he constructs them himself—again, at enormous expense of time and money. They should have had a role to play, one that the modern characters can reason out even if they’re not exactly sure they’re right, and not just occur so that your character can escape when attacked in the library by Random Murderer #8.

3) Keep temperatures in mind. It’s damn cold in a place that’s made of stone, has windows with (at best) wooden shutters and no glass, and has no central heating system. Unless you’re writing about a southern culture, keep in mind that fires are important, and if your heroine is the Special Servant Girl who sleeps late and forgets to tend her mistress’s fire, she should be yelled at. I personally don’t find it unfair, especially when the servant characters grump about how cold they are. Nobles will probably actually be colder than servants, since fantasy authors seem to have a particular fondness for putting servants’ quarters near the kitchens, where they can sneak in to steal food and have tender romantic scenes, and are incidentally next to big roaring ovens.

Beds are unlikely to have silken sheets—yes, really, even in the king’s bedchamber. There should be furs, or at least woolen blankets, if for some reason they refuse to hunt mammals.

If your castle is a northern one and has no tapestries, too, I want to know why. Tapestries weren’t originally just for decoration or to give bored noble ladies something to do; they also helped keep the castle warm. Find some other means of decoration if you don’t think the tapestries are enough, but taking them away completely adds another level of unreality.

4) Put castles in reasonable places, damn it. A tower guarding a valuable pass, river crossing or piece of land that keeps getting attacked by raiders is one thing. A huge castle that sprawls in the middle of nowhere, with no mention of a handy means of getting food, water, or anything else, and no reason to guard something, is another, and smacks of the author choosing drama over ease of living. (Of course, the author is not the one who will be living in the fantasy castle. I wish I could push fantasy authors into their books sometimes. It would be educational).

Water will be the hardest thing to supply, since not only will the castle use a great deal of it—water for animals, for cooking, for cleaning pots and floors, and for bathing if your nobles are fussy enough—but the farms that may surround and support the castle will also require a large source of it. Even if your area gets a lot of rainfall, it’s unlikely that livestock could be fed exclusively on runoff. And there must be some dry years. Why build away from a river or a lake?

If there are no farms and this castle is in the middle of a forest, a desert, or mountains, then I want to know where the king gets the cheese and the wine he so merrily feasts on, too. It doesn’t sound as though the merchants will be rushing there.

Finally, most castles are instruments of war, or the author would be using the term “palace.” If it doesn’t have something to guard, why did they build it?

Which is a neat segue to the next point.

5) If the castle is an instrument of war, it should seem like it. I’ve read fantasies before where the author assured me there were indeed thick walls, arrow slits, and battlements. Then she proceeded to tell me about the wide windows with the new glass all along the first floor, disregarding the three feet of stone previously mentioned, as well as how incredibly stupid it would be to have glass windows at all, never mind wide ones.

Consider your castle carefully. What would happen to it when boulders hit it? Could the walls withstand that for even a little while? Does it have an inner source of water, and granaries full of food that it could depend on in times of siege? Does it have country surrounding it that’s difficult to approach, either because of a moat or something else? Does it have an armory, places where women and children can shelter away from falling stones, easy access to the battlements for the guards?

If it’s an open place where just about anyone could walk in, and if stained glass windows and friendly sentries are more your style than murder holes and paranoid guards, then admit to yourself you’re writing a palace. No shame in that, but it should be far behind the lines, and if the enemy gets to it, it shouldn’t be able to miraculously withstand a siege.

6) Realize how many people it takes to maintain a building that size, and what it takes to maintain the people. For an excellent glimpse of how many people, read The Dragonbone Chair by Tad Williams. It’s mostly told from the point of view of a scullion, and the sheer scale of the cleaning, cooking, and copying operations, which he sees up close, is impressive.

The royal family is almost certainly in residence, if it’s your typical fantasy castle. With them are various combinations of their servants, handmaidens, ladies-in-waiting, best friends, hangers-on, sundry relatives, people kept for special purposes like jesters and musicians, nobles they want to keep an eye on or who want their favor, those nobles’ servants and handmaidens and hangers-on and sundry relatives, tutors, cooks, scullions, maids, guards, gardeners, advisers, ambassadors, petitioners, grooms, and people who tend various things, like the wine cellars and forge. And all of them have to eat, too, and drink, and have a place to sleep.

It doesn’t make sense, given all this, for servants never to appear, or for a huge castle to be open all the time. There will almost certainly be shut-up wings and towers, if only to make sure the servants aren’t weeping in despair when they try to clean. It doesn’t make sense to have endless supplies of food and water in the castle itself, either; there will be enough eaten to make bringing in more constantly necessary.



Just a sampling of some of the problems. May do more tomorrow.




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[info]dawnkiller
2004-02-04 01:17 am UTC (link)
2) I would say that secret passages are acceptable, if the author bothers to put them in historical context. For example, many castles and mansions DID have "secret passages" -- except they were actually hidden routes for the servants to use to ensure the nobles and their guests didn't need to look at them unless it was absolutely necessary. Wooden paneling that actually turns out to be a doorway was a favorite, IIRC. It's perfectly possible that things that are common knowledge to servants could seem mysterious to the more upper-class members of the castle, or even "lost" passages if the wing in question has been closed for a while, or has undergone remodeling. (This actually does happen; a friend of mine works in a building that's a remodelled mansion, and while it's been in business for at least 30 years they only just found a long-forgotten servants' stairway a few years ago, when a window-washer noticed that there was an extra window on the outside of the house.) Embarassingly, the one movie-type example that comes to mind is "Anastasia," where two members of the royal family were snuck out of the palace by a serving boy via a servants' passage that was well-disguised enough that the rioters missed it.

Of course, your caveat was "just because," so maybe this one doesn't count. :)

4) Not specifically related to place, but . . . does no one remember irrigation?? The Babylonians did it, the Egyptians did it, the Greeks and Romans did it -- it's a way to expand the number of inhabitable places in your kingdom, so often the ruler would actually have order such canals to be made. And roads, too, come to that -- Rome, at least, left a tone of major paved roads behind even after the empire collapsed. Everyone always shows the ruler erecting weird monuments and such through the use of slaves and indentured servants, ala the pyramids, but surely they do useful things, too? I'd like to see the little manor-house slightly off the beaten track evolve into a castle/palace because the owner was smart about developing the surrounding land. I'd buy a manor away from a major water-source if there was some mention of a canal . . .

And this doesn't really fit, but it's true: Castles are usually dirty. And smelly. Kay and Martin, I believe, are pretty good about pointing this out, but most fantasy authors overlook the fact that it's HARD to clean something that big, and people in the middle ages weren't much for hygiene anyway. They used to chuck rushes on the floor of great halls because 1) it kept the heat in, 2) it absorbed the refuse from all the feasts and such, and 3) they covered up the smell. It's tough to air out a great hall, especially if the windows are high and it's cold outside, since you're probably not going to make the effort if you're primarily concerned with not freezing to death. Likewise, the big floppy dogs that cruise around the castle were partly for sanitation; anyone who's ever had a dog knows they're the Nature's Hoovers when it comes to cleaning up dropped food, but you also get associated problems like dog crap, vomit, and all that fun stuff. I don't envy the servant on dog-duty. :P

Oh yeah, and there's also the garderobe/chamberpot problem, but most people seem to skim over that one, too. Strangely, a lot of fantasies seem to have indoor plumbing . . . but only in regards to baths. That's weird, since the Romans invented that, too. (And I so want to do something that uses the theory that one of the reasons Rome fell was because their pipes were lined with lead, so people would slowly incurr heavy metal poisoning, which impaired judgement as well as health. Somehow there's something extremely amusing about a society being brought down by their plumbing. :)

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Re:
[info]teluekh
2004-02-04 07:49 am UTC (link)
I agree with the 'servants routes'...I've seen such in several older buildings (generally wooden ones though)

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Re:
[info]limyaael
2004-02-04 12:22 pm UTC (link)
2) I don't have a problem with secret passages per se; I just dislike the idea of them being added centuries later, especially with the justification (which seems to be very common) that "Well, this noble lady/man had a whole bunch of lovers, so she/he built the walkway to go to them in safety." Yes, of course she/he did, and no one noticed the time and expense of hacking through solid stone?

If they're servants' routes, they should be put in at the construction of the castle. I would expect a king (or his architects) to do that anyway, since a royal castle would expect to have servants. Otherwise, servants would probably make do with back stairs and so on, or discover a passage originally used for another purpose and appropriate that, rather than actually building new ones.

4) Irrigation is possible, but it's also limited. I've read a few authors who had people pumping in water from the sea, somehow purifying it, and then using that to water their fields. If the fantasy world has that level of technology, or the kinds of wizards who can work that well with water, why not just make use of it to get fresh water into the fields? (Probably because then the author wouldn't have an excuse to have her castle by the sea).

Kay, Martin, and Williams all do the cleaning thing well. And it's why I have another problem with heroines who are servant girls in big castles and yet somehow have unlimited free time to moon around moping about their knight boyfriends and wondering what this strange shiny ring they were left with at birth means. I always wonder where the head servants are, to show up and tell her to get back to work.

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[info]arcseed
2004-02-04 02:42 am UTC (link)
#4: My one real problem with Martin. He points out that no one really wants Harrenhal, but there's still the Eryie. And it's hard to see why they go through the enormous trouble of hauling supplies up the mountain when the castle is off in a corner of the land where no one really wants to go.

Well, he does enough right I can forgive him. But still.

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Re:
[info]otakukeith
2004-02-04 10:10 am UTC (link)
I would suggest that the Eyrie is a refuge for the nobles, and the people of the Vale at large. After all, that's what Lysa is essentially doing - shutting herself and her son away somewhere no-one can get to them.

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[info]otakukeith
2004-02-04 10:12 am UTC (link)
I once wrote an outrageous medieval romance novel parody on a Harry Potter fanfiction site. One line, part of a description of a castle, was:

"The author could go into more detail about its construction, but frankly, you're reading this for all the juicy bits about bosoms and chest hair, not for authentic medieval architecture, aren't you?"

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[info]_silvertongued_
2004-02-04 12:53 pm UTC (link)
Hi! Would you mind if I add you to my friends list? I'm an amateur fantasy writer and I find your rants extremely helpful.

#2 was a real wake-up call. I love secret passages, but it wasn't until reading this that I found out how impractical having them all over the place actually was.

#4 brings to mind Ankh-Morpork, the greatest city on the Discworld, home to a million people, but with no available source of drinking water and no apparent basis for its economy. Gotta love how Pratchett pokes fun at every cliche and everything that is wrong in the world of fantasy writing.

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[info]limyaael
2004-02-04 02:14 pm UTC (link)
No, that's fine. *friends you back*

I don't actually mind the mere existence of secret passages; I just find that, like some forms of magic, many authors use them as deus ex machina plot devices to excuse all kinds of things. Think about the way you're using them and why they were built, and it should be fine.

I always did wonder where Ankh-Morpork got the clean water. Maybe they're just hardened to it.

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[info]undeadgoat
2004-02-07 07:41 pm UTC (link)
Well, the residents of Ankh-Morpork (especially Rincewind) do tend to complain about the lack of flavor in pure water when they leave the city . . .

There are real-world cities with non-beneficial locations, though. Washington, D.C. is the only well-known one that springs to mind, though I believe Madison, Wisconsin was planned the the five lakes area because it was scenic. Water, but no shipping or fishing, though there is fertile land all aroud. So I suppose planned cities designed by slightly mad architects and/or slightly despotic rulers could have put them there for some random reason; or conversely, a city could have been planned in a region of political neutrality. It could be one of those random bits of trivia that comes up when they're talking about something random, the kind of place exposition that happens when a character is somewhere totally unfamiliar.

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[info]onyxflame
2006-02-19 01:58 am UTC (link)
It's also possible that a city could be built on the site of some ancient religious happening, or that a particularly snarky god could command his followers to build a city somewhere annoying. Of course, whether the cities survived very long would be another matter entirely, heh.

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[info]maureenlycaon
2004-02-04 01:19 pm UTC (link)
Darn. I just came to realize, while reading this last night, that I really do need to plan out Mazruar and Palin's home

What they live in must be more like a Renaissance villa or mansion than any sort of castle. Now I'm desperately rummaging online for floor plans for Renaissance buildings, looking for one that's not a sinfully ugly giant box. (Sigh.)

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[info]childofatlantis
2004-02-04 02:30 pm UTC (link)
Ah, THANK YOU. As someone who tends to draw floor-plans for stories set in one room, it irritates me SO MUCH when I can't get a good visualisation of a place in my head. JK Rowling's Hogwarts drives me batty, to the point where I have to just slap on the caveat "Well, it's a magic castle, it changes" to keep from screaming. o.o

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[info]nobodys_grrl
2004-02-04 02:48 pm UTC (link)
Thank you! I'm currently using a castle setting so I can't even tell you how helpful that was. It gave me ideas, and of course, fantastic advice.

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[info]sligking
2005-10-05 05:55 am UTC (link)
One I think you left out that should be in there.
IT'S HARD TO BUILD A FUCKIN' CASTLE.
Somehow every evil overlord seems to have one, and it's usually really big, but castles don't appear out of thin air. It can take years to build a good castle, a huge quarry, and dozens if not hundreds of workers including porters, laborers, architects, masons, and god knows what else. Half the time, it seems like mister ubervillain takes over a city and in a week he has a castle underconstruction and he has it completed in a month.
In my own writing, I rarely deal with castles, the logistics are just to big a pain in the ass to make them seem realistic.

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[info]naziria
2007-01-13 06:01 am UTC (link)
Thank you for yet another beautiful rant (although I do realize I'm answering a very old topic, it's still worth it). It made me think harder about any castles I may want to use in the future.

With regards to building a castle, I also wonder where all the stone came from. Especially in sandy deserts. I did enjoy the way this was handled in "Vedmak"
as the author actually mentioned that old roads made out of slabs of rock were taken apart to build some of the castles.

As to the secret passages, I have seen that handled well in "profesiya: vedma" (the book was written in Russian, but still great). There, the large castle used as a knight academy was quite old and originally built with double-layered walls so that is enemy forces happen to barge inside, the occupants can use the passages within the walls to continue the siege. The problem was that a while back in its history during some emergency, one of the knights ate the plan of the castle so that it wouldn't fall into enemy hands, so eventually the existence of the passages was forgotten. The whole book had a humorous tone, which played a large role in how the castle was perceived.

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