Limyaael ([info]limyaael) wrote,
@ 2004-02-17 10:29:00
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Current mood: accomplished
Entry tags:fantasy rants: winter 2004, rants on nature

On animals and hunting.
Animal rant, part two?

Random Fact: Ailurophobes are afraid of cats. Napoleon was an ailurophobe, and once broke into a sweat when he thought there was a kitten in the next room.



1) Know what your characters can and cannot eat. They can't eat foxes. Nor can they eat ravens and crows. Trapping either of those animals won't do your half-starved hunters much good, though they might be able to use the blood as bait for larger game.

As well, the taste of animals will be influenced by how wild they are and what they feed on. It's certainly possible to eat wild geese, but they will be far more gamy and tough than their tame counterparts, because they have to fly and flee predators while farmyard geese don't. Use of the muscles toughens them and makes them harder to bite into. And if an animal spends a lot of its time eating meat, it's much more likely to have a nasty flavor than an animal who spends its time eating honey, fruit, and other sweet foods.

Of course, this may not matter to characters lost in the wilderness with nothing else to eat, but it's worth noting the fact.

2) Know what kinds of crossbreeds you can and cannot have. It's possible to breed wolves with dogs, especially if a bitch dog in heat is tied near an area where wolves are known to frequent the woods. (If it was a female wolf and male dog, it's unlikely that the dog's owner would find the pups). If the character lives in the right area, he could also have a crossbreed of dog and coyote.

Foxes, however, cannot breed with dogs; they've simply evolved too far in a different direction. Nor can cats breeds with tigers or lions, or tame canaries with wild parrots. Animal genetics, without the help of magic, are far less forgiving than fantasy genetics tend to be.

Even with those animals that can produce crossbreeds, such as horses and donkeys, what you get depends on what you use. Mules are the product of a mating between a female horse and a male donkey. Male horses and female donkeys produce a weaker, more horse-like animal called a hinny. Both are sterile, as many live hybrids tend to be, and can't pass on their genes. (Consider that, too, when you're creating a hybrid: they may be hardier than their parents, but are unlikely to be as fertile).

With fantasy animals, the choice is probably up to you as author, but should depend on more than just whim. I've read several fantasies with flying unicorns, crossbreeds between unicorns and pegasi. Usually, though, unicorns are described as more delicate and less horse-like than pegasi, especially with such features as cloven hooves, goat beards, and leonine tails. The more different the two animals are in your world, the less likely they should be able to breed, and the even smaller the chance for producing fertile offspring.

3) Skinning an animal is a lot of time and work. Most fantasies with hunters either don't include the skinning scene or just fly right past it, leading to the impression that the deer politely wandered out of the woods, killed itself, skinned itself, and chopped itself up into venison.

Not the way it works, especially if your character wants the skin for whatever reason, such as to make clothes out of. The skinning will be long, difficult, slow, and extremely messy, even with a sharp knife. If it's a winter environment, the blood will start freezing eventually, and the hunter will have to have some means to keep himself warm while he's out there (or transportation, like a dog sledge, to get the deer back to his house). If it's an environment with other predators, such as wolves, the smell of the blood is likely to attract them, and crows and other carrion-eaters will also probably show up. The predators may try to drive the hunter away if they're bold enough, and attack him themselves if it's a lean winter. The carrion-eaters will be nuisances. Crows may work so that while the hunter is concentrating on getting one of them away, others will come in behind and steal bits of the meat.

If your hunter only wants food, he doesn't have to take as much care with the skin, but he still has to get it off somehow, separate the best meat from the rest of the body, secure it for transportation back to his house, and decide what to do with the parts he's not going to use. If he wants to save them for later use, he'll either have to bury them, if the ground's cold enough, or stick them up in a tree. If he leaves it for predators, this isn't a problem, but if he killed the deer close to his home, then the meat could attract creatures he doesn't want to deal with. (I always wanted to see a story where a careless hunter who cooked his meat out in the open wound up luring in a dragon).

4) Preparing animals for the pot isn't easy, either. There's that matter of having to cook the meat, which many fantasy characters apparently do by sticking the meat directly in the fire. If they have a spit, what's it made of? Who turns it so that the meat isn't charred on one side and raw on the other? If they're making stew (the great fantasy staple, according to Diana Wynne Jones), what else is it made from? Meat and water, without any herbs, would wear after a while.

If the animal's a bird, do not roast it whole or I will picture your heroes with mouthfuls of feathers and laugh and laugh. If it's a fish, gutting and cleaning it will take a while. Non-mammals don't walk out of the forest or air or water and lie down for people to do with them as they will, either.

5) Unless your character is not human, the animal's senses will likely be better. This means that, usually, stalking the deer or the rabbits is out of the question for an inexperienced hunter. Setting a snare for an animal as small as a rabbit will work better anyway.

For deer and larger game, your character can lie in wait. It's boring, it takes a long time, and it slows up the all-important Quest, but it's necessary if they don't have anything else to eat. Have them build a blind and lie down behind it, or wait above a game trail long enough that a deer or other game will pass beneath them. This can actually be beneficial; beyond adding a dose of reality to the food-getting, it will make it seem as though your characters aren't blithely walking through the wilderness along the equivalent of an interstate.

They can also try hunting animals near rivers, where the sound of the running water masks other noises, the smell gets in the way too, and the animals have to lower their heads to drink. Hunting near ponds and lakes is possible, but the characters will probably have to take a few more chances than near rivers, and if they overhunt it, then the game's likely to start going somewhere else.

6) Research a few of the more medieval-like ways of hunting. These include hunting with dogs, with beaters, and with hawks/falcons. Except for hounds, they're rarely used in fantasy, and then the dogs seem used more often to hunt down fleeing criminals. Prey animals are less clever than humans, so they're less likely to get away, but they can be dangerous in their own right when cornered. Stags have their antlers and their hooves. Boars have their tusks. Wolves have their teeth, and if they're running in packs and the hound pack is smaller, they can win. Tigers, lions, and other large predators are even more obviously dangerous. The hunters shouldn't win every time.

Hawks and falcons have their own whole subset of cares. They have to be trained to bring prey down and not just fly away, for one, and their handlers have to take care not to launch them at prey too large. (A gyrfalcon could probably take on most birds. A merlin, not so much. And if the hunter is launching a kestrel at a dove, he should be prepared to go home without dinner). Most of the time, they're hooded to prevent them from panicking, and they're jessed to keep them on their perches; those have to be loosed before they can fly. If they break feathers, those have to be imped back in. The only fantasy hawks and falcons that have any excuse for acting as tame as most of them do are the ones who are actually intelligent and telepathically bonded to the heroes, and even then they're usually too tame- willing to forget a meal when hungry to help out the hero, for example.

7) Beggars can't be choosers. It's going to be very hard for fantasy heroes to be as picky as modern characters are, especially when traveling through the wilderness. If they're not sure what animals or plants may be poisonous, and only know a few for sure that aren't, they'll have a rather boring diet. If they've never cooked before, they'll have to learn by trial and error. If the characters are vegetarian, but have never bothered to learn how to identify and eat wild plants, their choices are learning really quickly, eating meat, or starving for their principles. All too often, authors shelter and pamper their characters from making such choices, and that makes me snort. How can I expect vegetarian Princess Raven to stand up and face the angry murderous villain down when she doesn't ever have to eat anything but the sweetest of corn and tomatoes and stew, and never has to choose between going hungry or eating meat?



It's ridiculous, the animals who apparently inhabit some fantasy worlds. I'm inclined to agree with Diana Wynne Jones's Tough Guide to Fantasyland, which notes gaping holes in Fantasyland's ecology. The few exceptions are mechanical-like horses, rabbits, crows, and sometimes deer and dogs.




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[info]jenlittlebottom
2004-02-17 05:18 pm UTC (link)
I think I did once read a scene in a book (a while ago, and I can't remember any details, unfortunatly), in which there was a boar hunt which used a large number of beaters to drive the animals towards the hunters, and then loooong spears for the hunters to counteract the fact that boars have fairly nasty tusks. And teenage!hero nearly got himself gutted by one, because he forgot that after you stick the spear in it, it's a good idea to dodge out of the way of the angry bleeding creature.

To combine this with another rant, why don't we ever see hunting magic? You'd think for all that mages can throw fireballs and call down lightning, there would be some who could use their gifts for more prosaic things, like locating prey, luring animals into traps with illusionary bait, and keeping scavengers away from your kill once you've got it.

I've always been fond of the theory that as you work your way through mage training, you don't just focus on throwing larger and larger fireballs. Learning how to use magic to aid day-to-day tasks would probably be an easier way to learn, just as immersion in a language makes it far easier to learn it. Who's really going to suggest that a trainee mind-mage test out his shaky skills by attempting to control a wolf or his mentor (who probably likes his brains where they are, thank you very much). Why not set him to convincing the crows to leave the crops alone, or driving mice out of the pantry?

And I'm getting really off-topic now, so I'll leave it there.

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Re:
[info]erythros
2004-02-17 06:42 pm UTC (link)
To combine this with another rant, why don't we ever see hunting magic? You'd think for all that mages can throw fireballs and call down lightning, there would be some who could use their gifts for more prosaic things, like locating prey, luring animals into traps with illusionary bait, and keeping scavengers away from your kill once you've got it

That was one of the few things that I liked about Robert Jordan - at one point, they're still all wet-behind-the-ears Two Rivers kids, and they're trying to catch some fish for supper. Moiraine-annoying-person comes up and IMMEDIATELY lands three or four trout by using Air and Water to lure them near so she can grab them. I thought that was kind of neat.

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Re:
[info]eisoj5
2004-02-17 07:51 pm UTC (link)
I think I did once read a scene in a book (a while ago, and I can't remember any details, unfortunatly), in which there was a boar hunt which used a large number of beaters to drive the animals towards the hunters, and then loooong spears for the hunters to counteract the fact that boars have fairly nasty tusks. And teenage!hero nearly got himself gutted by one, because he forgot that after you stick the spear in it, it's a good idea to dodge out of the way of the angry bleeding creature.

Sounds to me like The Once and Future King by T.H. White :)

-josie

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Re:
[info]sarafinapekkala
2004-02-18 01:36 am UTC (link)
I think I did once read a scene in a book (a while ago, and I can't remember any details, unfortunatly), in which there was a boar hunt which used a large number of beaters to drive the animals towards the hunters, and then loooong spears for the hunters to counteract the fact that boars have fairly nasty tusks. And teenage!hero nearly got himself gutted by one, because he forgot that after you stick the spear in it, it's a good idea to dodge out of the way of the angry bleeding creature.

*frustrated groan* I just read that book, but I don't remember exactly which one it was. Robin Hobb's Assassin's Apprentice?

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Re:
[info]limyaael
2004-02-18 05:13 am UTC (link)
I just started reading Diana Wynne Jones's Chrestomanci series, and she does have mages learning the "ordinary" arts of housekeeping magic, cleaning gutters, preparing food, etc. It seems to me that that would be far more useful than fireballs.

As for why hunting magic isn't more common, I suspect it may be because many fantasy authors' brains put mages in another category altogether. They can't possibly be hunters, because they have more "exciting" lives and "better" things to do.

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[info]alanahikarichan
2005-09-04 10:49 pm UTC (link)
That sounds like either the first or second book in David Edding's Belgariad, actually-- did he get saved by one of his companions turning into a giant bear? 'Cause then, it's DEFINATELY David Eddings. Or a blatant rip-off. ^_^

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[info]lawnnun
2005-10-03 06:17 am UTC (link)
I think you're thinking of one of the earlier books of the Belgariad, by David Eddings. The boar hunt happened in the second book, I think.

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[info]worldserpent
2004-02-17 09:02 pm UTC (link)
I'm curious, why can't people eat foxes and crows? Do they really taste that nasty? I recall reading a book where the writer tried out a recipe of civet de renard (fox stew!) It, however, involved a lot of marination.

Also, in China, people do eat cat and dog and bear (well, I assume bear would be very edible because bears are omnivores), and not because they're starving.

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Re:
[info]limyaael
2004-02-18 05:17 am UTC (link)
As far as I know, they're simply inedible. I may possibly be wrong on that, but I have seen a source claiming they're inedible and no particular source claiming they are edible; I think a lot of authors tend to assume that you can eat any animal you catch.

Also, in China, people do eat cat and dog and bear (well, I assume bear would be very edible because bears are omnivores), and not because they're starving.

So many fantasy characters appear to have Western tastes in food that there's probably a reason that dogs and cats aren't very common food in fantasy novels.

And yes, bears are edible as far as I know. At least, C. S. Lewis has his characters eating bear in one of the Narnia books.

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[info]venusrain
2007-07-06 06:33 am UTC (link)
Yes, just don't eat the liver. You'll give yourself vitamin A poisoning.

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[info]ravenclaw_devi
2004-03-02 11:46 am UTC (link)
But AFAIK, in the winter of - 1916? - post-WW I, anyhow, people in Germany were eating crows because they were starving.

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[info]lynnbodoni
2004-02-17 10:37 pm UTC (link)
My husband hunts. Every now and then, he manages to kill something. We will never forget his first deer. He brought it home, insisted that I take pictures of him posing with it, and then disappeared into the garage with it and some knives. He invited me to join him, but I was able to resist the temptation. Fortunately, he had gutted and drained the blood from it out in the field (I believe this is called "field dressing", in fact). However, skinning and butchering an animal is a long, bloody, smelly process. My daughter came home several hours after he had started on the task, changed her clothes, and told him to move over. She's a rather good amateur cook, and watches a lot of cooking shows, and she knows how to disjoint an animal and cut the meat along the "seams", which is helpful. She saved my husband several hours of time...but it was still nearly a full day's work to get that deer skinned and butchered by a couple of amateurs. Now, this was not exactly the same situation as fantasy characters are likely to find themselves in. For one thing, my husband and daughter had someone cooking a meal for them (me), and were both well fed. Actually, they're both a bit TOO well fed, but that's not really relevant for this discussion. For another thing, my husband wasn't too concerned about the hide, though I would have liked to have it. The tanner that I contacted wanted entirely too much to tan that hide, so we didn't get it tanned. My husband did keep the antlers, though, which he has NOT mounted on any of our walls, because I have told him I will take those antlers down and find a more suitable place to lodge them. Ahem. Third, hubby and sissy were preparing the meat for the freezer, which fantasy characters will, of course, not do at all, though characters might well prepare meat for long term storage. Hubby and sissy were rather concerned about getting the meat cut up into neat packages, which starving characters will not worry about very much at all.

My daughter likes to jerk venison every now and then, when she has a lot of venison on hand. She marinates it in a well seasoned sauce, and then dries it in a very low oven. It takes hours and hours. Unseasoned meat could be jerked, too, but it won't taste nearly as good, and I believe that some of the seasoning helps preserve the meat.

Speaking of taste, game is VERY strong tasting. I've had wild and domestic rabbit, and the difference is astounding. I've also had other game, including venison. Some people like the gamy taste, but I really don't like it at all. It's very tough as well. A vegetarian would probably find game nauseating, not just from the idea of eating meat, but because it's so strong in flavor and aroma. I love domestic meat, but I can't stay in the house when hubby and sissy are fixing venison, the smell is just too strong for me.

Some fruits and vegetables can be easily dried for long term storage, which also has the advantage of making them much lighter in weight. Our modern granola or fruit and grain bars are also an example of food storage, even though we now mostly use them as snack foods. However, making such items requires having an excess of the right foods in the first place, and the time and energy to make them. Most modern bars have some honey or other sweetener in them, both for binding the various ingredients together and to make the product more interesting to eat. In a more primitive setting, honey or sugar would be added to help preserve the food and to add more calories to each portion, which would be a major concern. A fantasy world's dried fruit/vegetable/grain mixture might not be well seasoned, or well sweetened, at all, and might be nutritious but boring. Sort of like people kibble. Or possibly elf kibble. Dwarves, of course, have dwarven bread, which has astonishing keeping powers, and which doubles as a weapon.

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Part 2
[info]lynnbodoni
2004-02-17 10:39 pm UTC (link)
That vegetarian princess will probably pass out during the butchering phase, too, come to think of it. The smell is overwhelming, and nauseating, even for a meat eater. Even if she doesn't watch, she will be overcome by the smell. If she wanders off, she's likely to encounter predators and scavengers which are attracted by the smell. Heh. Well, it can be a learning experience for her. If she survives, that is.

Speaking of drying fruits and veggies, my daughter has a food dehydrator. While experimenting on a variety of fruits, she attempted to dry watermelon slices. I do not recommend this.

My daughter just came home from work, and I have consulted with her about the butchering. She says that they could have hacked out some chunks of meat for immediate cooking within an hour or two, but it would have been very messy. She also agrees with me on the smell. These days, when my husband bags a deer, he takes it directly to the meat processor, he does NOT bring it home. He will bring home smaller game and butcher it himself, but he would not try to butcher a deer again. He also has no plans to butcher a wild pig, if he should happen to kill one.

I used to go camping a lot when I was younger. Setting up a proper cooking fire takes a bit of knowledge and practice. It's very easy to make the fire too big or too hot, and thus burn everything. After this, of course, the novice camper will try to keep the fire smaller, and runs the risk of not cooking anything. Once the skill is learned, though, it's fairly easy to put stuff on skewers and cook that way, and it doesn't require constant turning, though the food will require some attention. But wood fires need attention anyway, as they're likely to run out of fuel, or a log or stick will burn through and necessitate a rearrangement of the fuel. A good camper WILL NOT leave a fire unattended, as it's likely to get out of control very easily. The area around the fire must be carefully examined and cleaned up, so that no stray spark can land on anything flammable.

Speaking of skewers...some wood is poisonous. I know that in Las Vegas, we were constantly warned not to use oleander sticks (oleanders were the landscaping shrub most often used in LV) to spear our marshmallows or hot dogs. I am not sure just what would happen to someone who ate food cooked on an oleander skewer, but I don't think it's very pleasant.

It's also possible to wrap food in damp leaves (or seaweed, for those seaside cookouts) and place it in the coals of a fire to cook. Again, you have to know WHICH leaves are poisonous, and which are good to eat. It will take some time for the fire to reduce itself to coals, though, and even longer for the food to cook. However, one can cook the first meal over the campfire, and prepare the second meal (in leaves) while the first is cooking, and then set the second meal in the coals after the first meal is eaten. This is especially handy for breakfasts, or for cooking food to be eaten cold on the trail. It won't be as tasty, but it WILL save an astonishing amount of time. If you are kind enough to allow potatoes in your world, they can simply be shoved into the coals, unwrapped, or wrapped in wet leaves, or covered with mud which can later be knocked off. Potatoes are VERY tasty this way, even cold.

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Re: Part 2
[info]dawnkiller
2004-02-18 01:36 am UTC (link)
Glad you mentioned that some wood is poisonous (I didn't know oleanders were -- though it would make sense, since the flowers are), because this post reminded me of something a counselor at summer camp told us. Seems that one of the girls in her troop was sent to gather wood and tinder, and came back with a bunch of long, ropey sticks as starter wood. Unfortunately, it turned out some of the tinder was actually dead poison oak . . . or at least, mostly-dead; it was still quick enough to give off a lot of smoke, which turned out to be toxic. As a result, a lot of campers ended up getting skin irritations -- and worse, severe lung irritation as a result of breathing in the smoke. It was nothing fatal, but was definitely uncomfortable . . . and it's probably a good thing no one there was allergic to it. (BTW, this isn't a weird urban legend -- I checked it out, and apparently a few forestry workers have experienced this first-hand. Ouch.)

I for one would like to see one of those naive young Heros On The Lam make a similar mistake and end up with a nice roaring campfire full of poisonous wood, but that's probably just me. :)

Anyway, thanks for all the camping and dressing/cooking animals; I've seen a few in the process of being skinned, but never actually seen or heard about the whole process. This was pretty good to know. :)

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Part 3
[info]lynnbodoni
2004-02-17 10:40 pm UTC (link)


Making a camp with a fire is time consuming. If the characters are experienced campers, and are not in too much of a hurry as they are traveling, they might have been able to find and gather tinder as they travel on foot. It's darn hard to gather tinder on horseback, unless one wishes to dismount and then get back on a steed. In addition to tinder, a fire will need some medium sized and larger logs, which are probably not readily available unless the travelers happen across a well-stocked way station. A fire is often necessary, though, because sleeping in the open can get darned cold, and a fire will help keep nonsentient predators away. Even the smell of smoke will keep many animals away. However, a fire or smoke smell might very well draw attention from one's enemies. And a fire is necessary to cook many foods.

A good camper will try to restore a used campsite to near pristine condition. An adventurer in fear of his life might try to cover the traces of his campsite simply to keep his enemies from knowing where he's been. This is not as easy as it sounds, because of the ashes and meal leavings. Burying those things will still leave signs that something has been buried, in all likelihood.

Sorry about the three part reply, but my original reply was much too long and I had to chop it up.

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Re: Part 3
[info]jacay
2004-02-18 12:25 am UTC (link)
Oh wow. That's a lot of good information, there. I think I'll have to print it out, now that I know I'm going to have to rewrite the scene where my character is running through the forest.

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Re: Part 3
[info]limyaael
2004-02-18 05:19 am UTC (link)
Thank you very much for the extra information! I can understand many fantasy authors not wanting to go into that level of detail; I just wish more of them would act as if things like skinning animals actually existed.

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[info]maureenlycaon
2004-02-18 02:04 am UTC (link)
This touches on some of my own pet peeves about fantasy hunting.

Skinning an animal is a lot of time and work.

It also requires a certain degree of skill. For one thing, when slitting the hide up the belly, you have to be quite careful not to puncture the flesh below. If you do, you risk penetrating the peritoneal cavity, in which case you'll have vile-tasting and vile-smelling gut fluids and contents fouling the meat and making butchering even more unpleasant.

And while I'm on that subject: there's also the process of disembowelling (gutting) the kill. You have to open up the peritoneal cavity and remove the digestive tract without puncturing anything (which usually means tying off the esophagus and the colon), or -- again -- you'll foul the meat. And oh! the stench! Once, I tried to skin a tiny dead snake I found in my front yard, which had been killed by a crushing blow to the midsection (no, I didn't kill it). The stench from the ruptured organs literally drove me right out of the yard. I can only imagine what an entire deer or elk would smell like.

It would be nice if every author writing a hunting and butchering scene would just read a tutorial on hog butchering or the like, to get an idea of what's involved.


I'll admit that my hunting experience is limited to hunting sim games such as Rocky Mountain Trophy Hunter. But contrary to what most people seem to believe, when an animal is shot -- even in a vital spot -- it does not usually just fall down dead with a nice "thud", even in a computer game. With bow hunting in particular, even a shot in the lungs usually means the animal runs for a while until its lungs collapse. Skilled hunters must invariably be skilled trackers as well.

I'm inclined to agree with Diana Wynne Jones's Tough Guide to Fantasyland, which notes gaping holes in Fantasyland's ecology.

No ecology is more what she pointed out (and almost no wildlife). But the ecology in most fantasy novels -- including Tolkien's work -- makes me grit my teeth. Let's not even get into the random misplaced species: I'm reading Tales of the White Wolf right now, and I'm still recovering from a scene where Elric and his companions spot a coyote.

Good writers sometimes spend weeks or months or years constructing their world's economy and politics. Why can't they devote five minutes to constructing a halfway plausible ecology?

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Re:
[info]limyaael
2004-02-18 05:22 am UTC (link)
One thing that puzzles me about fantasy ecology is that so many fantasies are set in forest/temperate climates apparently identical to Earth's forests (not a whole lot of invented animals or trees, for one thing), and yet the authors can't be bothered to just borrow convenient Earth ecology. They do lots of research on fighting techniques, on politics, on a culture from Earth if they're swiping that. Is research on nature so much different?

Of course, I think there's a more distressing explanation than simple laziness; people just don't think about it.

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Re:
[info]maureenlycaon
2004-02-18 01:28 pm UTC (link)
I suspect you're correct. Most people know far less about even European wilderness than they think they do . . . and don't understand its importance to a medieval culture.

(Restrains self from ranting about how people may think studying ecology means turning into an "uncool", "wild-eyed leftist" environmentalist and being cast out by all their libertarian or conservative friends, and so try not to even think about it when writing . . .)

Oh, yes, and one other of my pet peeves: deer antlers. People, other animals have horns. Deer have antlers, not horns! And except for reindeer, only the males have them, and not during the winter when they've dropped their antlers. They have to regrow them every year.

If I read one more story about the hunter dropping a fully antlered buck in spring or summer, I'll spork my eyeballs or something.

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[info]shati
2004-02-18 02:48 am UTC (link)
This post and its comments are very interesting. I'm glad I've never tried to write a killing & butchering scene. (I'm also glad I've never tried to actually prepare any corpses for eating, from other people's descriptions.)

I have done a bit of very, very tame camping, and even that is not always pretty. On one insect-infested island, even after bathing in repellant that's probably going to get me cancer fifty years down the road, I managed to collect over fifty mosquito bites. In summer, near water, in most places, the characters should wake up itching awfully.

Also, one thing that startled me the first time I spent a lot of time near an open fire was black snot the next morning from breathing in the ashes floating up. I enjoyed putting that in one camping scene. :)

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Big cat hybrids.
[info]teluekh
2004-02-18 03:00 am UTC (link)
A good idea of what American species are edible can be found in older editions of the Joy of Cooking. I think the most recent one has taken out some of the recipes for squirrel and the like.

Many big cats can interbreed. Lion fathers and tiger mothers kept together commonly produce very large hybrid offspring (up to double the size of a Bengal) (ranges do not overlap in the wild). The males of these are sterile, but the females have been known to produce offspring.

Tiger fathers and lion mothers have a harder time breeding, but it can happen. The female hybrids here are also fertile, though the males are not. These hybrids tend to be small for tigers.

Leopards and lions can mate, despite size difficulties. This possibly occurs in the wild, but it has not been confirmed, and is probably an extinct high-altitude lion subspecies. In captivity, there are the usual fertility problems.

There are a few fertile female mules as well.

Ducks often hybridize, especially mallards, who have bred successfully with 50 other species. These hybrids are often fertile.

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Re: Big cat hybrids.
[info]limyaael
2004-02-18 05:24 am UTC (link)
Thanks for the information on hybrids (though I have never heard that any mules are fertile, much less that there are fertile females. Are you sure of this? And what do they mate with to produce fertile offspring?)

Many big cats can interbreed.

Interesting to know. I was thinking of tame/wild crosses, though, and as far as I know having a housecat mate with a leopard or lion is impossible, if only because of the size difference.

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Re: Big cat hybrids.
[info]teluekh
2004-02-18 07:24 am UTC (link)
*does a bit more research* Yes, but they (domestic cats) can breed with many smaller true wildcats. A lot of the big cats hybrids were bred as 'freaks' for circuses - deliberate hybridization has gone down, but still happens for pet trade and such.

There's been about 60 recorded fertile mules/hinnies, which is not a lot considering how many have been bred in all history. They do ovulate, only irregularly, and they have sex drives. Generally their eggs and sperm are not 'up to spec', but it does happen every so often that circumstances are in favor (there's been 1 recorded fertile male mule). They breed mostly with donkeys, or whatever fertile horsy thing is kept in the same pen.

There was recently a sheep/goat hybrid in Africa that was tested and confirmed, but it was infertile.

For fertile hybrids, the cow and the bison can interbreed and produce fertile offspring. Look up 'beefalo' sometime. They have a lot of advantages compared to traditional cattle - grow faster, less birthing problems, more efficient foragers...

A blue whale/fin whale cross was discovered fertile (or at least carrying a fetus on dissection).

Asian and african elephants are not generally considered interfertile and are in different genuses, but a live calf hybrid was once produced (died several days later)

Many antelope also hybridize, and one whale/dolphin was produced accidentally that then bred herself. Camel/Llamas have been produced through artificial insemination...

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Re: Big cat hybrids.
[info]maureenlycaon
2004-02-18 01:51 pm UTC (link)
I was thinking of tame/wild crosses, though, and as far as I know having a housecat mate with a leopard or lion is impossible, if only because of the size difference.

It might be possible for a domestic cat and a lynx to produce offspring. I'm pretty sure a domestic cat and an American bobcat can, because an ex-friend of mine had a kitten from one such alleged mating. She said the hindquarters were like a bobcat's -- bobtail, long legs -- giving the cat an odd appearance. The beast was also quite high-strung and active.

Problem is, of course, that bobcats only live in North America, not the Europe of most fantasy. And European lynxes are twice the size of American lynxes, almost approaching the size of small mountain lions.

These days, biologists tend to define species not by whether they can be induced to mate and produce fertile offspring, but by whether they will naturally hybridize in the wild. By this standard, most of the separate species you know are valid. Wolves and dogs interbreed because, as a genetic study a few years ago proved conclusively, they were never really different species at all; the domestic dog is indeed descended from the wolf. Some exceptions I can think of offhand are:

-- The red wolf, which may in fact be a gray wolf/coyote cross. At least, no one's been able to find any unique genetic material in them, AFAIK. But before European humans came along and disrupted the population patterns of canids in North America, they were a stable species that seldom interbred with wolves or coyotes.

-- Mule deer and whitetailed deer, again in North America. Most likely due to human-wrought changes in the land, whitetailed deer seem to be expanding their range into places previously inhabited only by mule deer. Wildlife managers report that at the places where shot bucks are tagged, they're seeing more and more bucks that seem to be a mixture of whitetaill and mule deer. For reasons having to do with the two species' mating behavior, these animals are most likely the product of a whitetail buck and a mule deer doe, and not the other way around.


It's worth nothing that perhaps aurochs and domestic cattle might well interbreed, and almost certainly tarpans and domestic horses would. I don't see enough tarpans or aurochs in fantasy literature, anyway. >;-)

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Re: Big cat hybrids.
[info]sligking
2005-10-05 06:04 am UTC (link)
Bobcats and housecats can breed, but the result is to the best of my knowledge, always infertile. Cattle can breed with Aurochs period. They're technically the same animal, as are wolves and domestic dogs as well as house cats and the wildcat. FYI, I'm pretty sure wild Aurochs are extinct and all extant aurochs are back bred domestic cattle.

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ailurophobes?
[info]silverwerecat
2004-02-18 04:07 am UTC (link)
Napoleon was an ailurophobe, and once broke into a sweat when he thought there was a kitten in the next room.

And I'm certain that this was a ginger coloured kitten.

Curces, now I have another Gingerhead story in my head!

If it was a female wolf and male dog, it's unlikely that the dog's owner would find the pups.
Or the male dog, I fear...

Nor can cats breeds with tigers or lions.
Untrue. They can breed with wild boars.
If you do not believe me, come see my 30 pound Garfield. Feline in form, he has the appetite and the grace of his distant forefathers the boars.

Overall, I really enjoyed your post, although my vegeterian stomach raised a few objections. Since I have been writing a lot from a feline point of view, I can at least say that one of my heroes has a certain advantage over others. He doesn't have to skin or cook any of his prey and yet he'll have the time to tend to his grooming, hehe.

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Re: ailurophobes?
[info]limyaael
2004-02-18 05:26 am UTC (link)
Heh, true. Animals definitely have an advantage over fussy humans (especially spoiled fantasy humans who don't appear to walk around in real wildernesses).

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Re: ailurophobes?
[info]laraqua
2006-03-08 11:39 am UTC (link)
Gingerhead? You from Critique Circle?

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Re: ailurophobes?
[info]silverwerecat
2006-03-08 12:12 pm UTC (link)
Yeap. That's me. Good to see you here!

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[info]vampiresbite
2004-03-04 05:56 pm UTC (link)
About cross-breeding, do you think using magic to breed creatures is interesting or a cop out? I was working out the kinks for my new species Hyverns when I read this and thought maybe I should rethink them.

Hyverns are half-horse, half-wyvern steeds used to bear the Demons, Gods and Moonchildren (evil Fae). They're about 1 1/2 times larger then a horse and covered with thick, almost scaly hide. They're also winged. All other features vary from one hyvern to the next, one may be exactly like a horse except for wings/hide, another may be very reptilian.

They are bred and reproduced by magic (they hatch from eggs however), but now I'm wondering if they're cheesy.

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[info]sligking
2005-10-05 06:06 am UTC (link)
Personally, I've always found this fun. In one D&D campaign, I had a wizard who specialized in making magical hybrids. Beware the Rematori. Marvel at the Armapine. Be confused by the octotoad.

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[info]vampiresbite
2005-10-05 07:10 pm UTC (link)
Thanks! And hee! at the octotoad.

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[info]akanaakazen
2007-02-21 01:29 am UTC (link)
Oh, this is just great -- because of you, I'm doing research on how to skin and gut a fish. And there just so happen to be PICTURES on the site I'm currently at. Bleck.

And next is rabbit. Ugh... >.<

Well, thanks a lot. Both seriously and sarcastically.

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Crow
[info]highqueenlynze
2008-07-08 06:45 pm UTC (link)
Another fyi, crows can be eaten, they are tough and tasteless, but they can be eaten.

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Edibility
[info]dfiantharlequin
2008-09-09 10:18 am UTC (link)
Any warm-blooded vertebrate can be eaten. Crows might not taste very good, but if you're half-starved, you don't care. Remember, people whose food does not come in packages from grocery stores tend to be a lot less fastidious about what that food is. Polar bear and ringed seal livers are toxic, so discard them, but aside from that, I can't think of any warm-blooded critters that aren't edible. I know someone who ate a parrot a very long time ago. He had to stew it for a day to tenderize it enough to eat, but when it's what you can catch, it's what you eat.

Oh, and a lot of bear hunters eat their bears.

Something else to think about: Your medieval hunter butchering his deer is not going to be the amateur in the garage; he's more akin to the guys at the deer butchering place. He's had a lot of practice.

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