Limyaael ([info]limyaael) wrote,
@ 2004-04-14 22:01:00
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Current mood: cranky
Entry tags:fantasy rants: spring 2004, world-building: history

Change in societies
I did one post about changing a story from the outside in, but changing a story from the inside out- changing a fantasy world's society in reasonable ways- is good, too.



1) Show magic or technology changing in your fantasy world, or provide some reason why it wouldn't. The only concession usually made to this is the existence of some Grand Magical Empire in the far past, which collapsed and left everyone scrabbling among the artifacts. I've ranted before about why I don't think this is a good idea (in particular, that people seem to have been incredibly intelligent before the Empire's collapse and incredibly dumb after it, to never have figured out how these artifacts work). Why not show magic changing in the present, too? If it really does have a system of laws and rules the way that a lot of fantasy magic systems do, then perhaps the things people can do with it alter as they study it more and learn more about it. If it's not like science and can never be changed or fully understood, at least an explanation for that should be implanted in the story.

The static nature of technology doesn't make much sense, either, even in the pseudo-medieval fantasy worlds. Technological innovations did happen incredibly slowly in Earth's medieval period, but they did happen. And most medieval-like fantasy worlds lack several of the factors that made change so slow: heavy ignorance among most of the population, isolated villages and nations, a powerful church, and short, hard lives that didn't allow people to do much. If there are bright, long-lived mages running around, most of the population can read (or so it would seem from those peasant heroes who are never, ever illiterate), the countries are open to each other in a fashion more appropriate to the Renaissance, and there is no central power structure that opposes the spread of a scientific worldview, where is the science? Again, there could be reasons, but I wish authors would introduce them into the body of the story. Don't base a society on Earth's medieval period without having thoroughly studied medieval history and considered what the absence of, say, a unified Church will do to your world.

Changing magic and technology doesn't have to be the focus of your book (though I would find it fascinating to see more scientist heroes; mage heroes are a dime a dozen). It can just be mentioned, casually, that a hundred years ago mages didn't have the ability to create lighted little balls that float around a room. Or perhaps they did know the trick of making precise clocks once, and lost it.

This is yet another reason to sing Steven Brust's praises. He uses his Vlad Taltos series to illustrate a world where teleportation and psychic communication are very common, meaning that it's possible to have a truly cosmopolitan and global Empire and not have it collapse under the weight of the reader's disbelief. Magic is employed because it's cheap, easy, and, in essence, its world's science. I wish more fantasy authors who take the trouble of coming up with a science-like magic system would make that magic its world's technology and get past the "Wow, this hero's a mage, and so special!" syndrome.

2) Why do monarchies remain stable so long? Again, there are possible reasons- including, in a fantasy world, that the monarchs could be more powerful magically than anyone else, or tied to the land in some obscure fashion- but they're not offered. It seems as if everyone in Fantasyland agrees that a monarchy is a great idea, and that any change (including a change to a different monarch) is Bad, Bad, Bad. Never mind that some of the evil usurpers seem to do a better job than a one-month-old infant would do. Still there must be not only a King or Queen, but the right King or Queen, and screw changing the system in any way.

I find the idea bewildering, and all the more so when I encounter it in science fiction. Why not experiment with societies? Why assume that people in a world where magic exists and where conditions generally seem less harsh than in any comparable period on Earth (part of the product of a modern author's upbringing) would go running to monarchy for comfort? Where are the democracies, the nation-states, the republics, the socialist societies? Hell, for that matter, where are the oligarchies or the constitutional monarchies?

I think it's entirely possible that fantasy societies could change and evolve, barring some artificial barrier like the monarchs being too powerful to challenge- in which case I want to know how the evil usurper could take the throne anyway- and that this would not make your readers run away whimpering in terror. If some great change occurs, why not let it affect the governmental system as well as other parts of the society? Why not introduce a Marx-figure into your world and see what happens? I would dearly love to see that happen, especially if the monarch was corrupt and there was no real reason to keep her on the throne.

Which reminds me.

3) Dynastic families seem to be copies of each other too regularly- in particular, parents get reflected in their children. This happens especially when the author has written one series or book about the parents, and goes on to write the second about the original characters' children. I've rarely seen this transition handled well (looking at you, David Eddings, oh yes). Names get repeated, with children being named after people who died in the first book. Personalities seem to be carbon copies of one parent's or a combination of the parents', as if personality were entirely genetically encoded. That could be possible, I suppose, but I'd like some mention of it happening that way among all humans, not just this one particular subset. The children also tend to go through all the parents' trials, or copies of them.

It's all right to leave one set of beloved characters behind. Really. It's all right to change a family, even when they're the center of some world-spanning story. Show their fortunes rising and falling. Show characters that are not named after some distant heroic ancestor or a dead friend, and show them living their own lives. Perhaps the perfect wonderful family has a few black sheep; the larger the family, the more likely it should be.

I would find dynastic fantasies a lot more interesting if it seemed that the families changed in response to changing conditions in the fantasy world, instead of remaining miraculous retreads of each other.

4) Let interesting and dramatic historical events other than wars and quests happen in your world. Looking over a fantasy world's timeline can make my eyes glaze over. Where are the great discoveries, the treaties, the political and religious schisms, the plagues and famines, the social movements? Nowhere, it seems, unless the author feels the need to add a plague from the Dark Lord or a famine that comes about because the right King isn't ruling the land.

This is yet another reason to make changes happen in society; it gives you something new to write about. If the only events of any note or importance happen when the good and noble Queen wins a war against the Dark Lord or when someone finds the mystical Sword of Gorgoros, why? Is there a magical or theological reason? (That would make me sit up and take notice, but alas, it's all too rare). Why do no other people not involved in wars or quests ever change the world? Why do the wars and quests themselves seem so isolated, for that matter? They seem to happen and then lapse back into nothingness, barely rippling the pond. And this goes back to yet another favorite pet peeve of mine: the perfect happy ending doesn't leave me with a sense of closure, but of cheating. I want to see how the Queen deals with the people who don't immediately accept her, her Kingdom devastated in war, and any disaffected agents of the Dark Lord.

Oh, right. I forgot. Everyone who is good accepts and cheers for her, and those who don't are killed. The devastation to the Kingdom only happened to peasants, who aren't important. The disaffected agents of the Dark Lord are either dead, for refusing to bow down to the Queen, or just melt away and go home. They couldn't possibly, for example, take up banditry on the roads in the wilder parts of the Kingdom, or form guerrilla groups who intrigue and harass against the Queen. Her coming to the throne restores everything to perfect order.

*yawn*

5) Keep an eye on how groups might work against each other. I'm often disappointed by the ease with which fantasy heroes persuade certain groups to join them. This is a central feature of fantasy quests, this bringing together of disparate groups (a theme inherited from Tolkien). But there's no truly serious conflict in the end, no matter how serious the author tells me the conflict will be. The heroine sympathizes with the death of the leader's son, or speaks a few "witty comebacks"- in your dreams, author- or gives some wise sermon, and suddenly they're all on her side.

And none of these groups ever, ever act against each other, even if they have long-standing histories and hatreds of their own, or totally opposite goals.

What the hell is the point of developing a complicated fantasy world, with different nations and different cultures, if you don't use it? If Group A is a group of elves living in their forest and very protective of it, and Group B is a group of human woodcutters who live near the forest, would they really demand complementary prices for their aid? It sounds as though they would be conflicting, rather.

Most fantasy authors solve this by making the heroine forge "bonds of friendship" between them- whatever- or including some very simple and obvious solution that somehow nobody has ever thought of before until the heroine announces it. (See the part above about people apparently becoming dumber as history rolls on). There's no hint of future conflict, either, of the woodcutters coming to the heroine and demanding that she let them expand their territory at some point, say perhaps when their population has grown.

Connect groups in your world. They can't live next to each other, except behind very forbidding geographical barriers like mountain ranges, and not influence each other. They might not like each other. Why? If they do like each other, why? If they both agree to aid the heroine, why? A lot of very realistic tension and political infighting could go on between people who aren't evil, just suspicious of each other, and get the fantasy world out of the Light/Dark divide.



There should be more change. *kicks frozen fantasy worlds*




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[info]corundum
2004-04-14 08:48 pm UTC (link)
#1 is a hard one to get right! Not only is there change in the technology level to consider, but there's also the problem of simply establishing the baseline, and I think a lot of authors tend to gloss right over that. What level of sanitation and medical technology is needed to have median lifespans approaching the sixty or seventy years seen in most fantasy instead of the 30 year lifespan of c.1500 AD? Can that technology plausibly exist without the advancements in education and scientific thinking that led to it in the real world?

Even once the baseline is established, it's difficult to figure out what would develop next, for similar reasons. What knowledge or skills must be discovered or developed for a society to move from chamberpots to sewage systems, or for magicians to be able to alter people's memories? Why didn't it exist before, and why is it happening now? These can be very hard questions to answer, I think.

#5 is another important point. Too often, everyone just sort of comes together for "the greater good." Anyone that dislikes their fellow "good guys" to the extent of actually doing anything about it turns out to be a "bad guy" in the end. The reverse also happens too often - the bad guys seem to be incapable of working together under their own free will, despite whatever common goals and interests they may have.

That was one of the reasons I liked Dragons of Summer Flame. The whole series of books had been showing that the good guys pretty much always worked together as a team, while one of the reasons for the defeat of the bad guys was that they always tried to backstab one another at the worst possible times. Then, in this book, the war has supposedly been won, and the good guys have fallen back into politics as usual - several of the groups were at war in everything but name, as I recall - and a group of bad guys, working together for "the common evil" (the goddess they all served), come out of nowhere and completely wreak havoc. It was a very pleasing reversal. :)

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[info]limyaael
2004-04-16 06:20 am UTC (link)
The basic idea of Dragons of Summer Flame was cool, I agree. I do think they went overboard with it. *fires blasts of random hatred at screwed-up DragonLance world*

And I think that keeping an eye on magical/technological processes is hard. However, if even a facsimile of it is done, it can make the world seem more rooted in reality than a lot of the shlock that gets passed off as high or medieval fantasy.

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[info]onyxflame
2006-02-22 06:35 pm UTC (link)
Meh, I'll have to do something about this in my novel. I mention that one town only got sewers built 50 years ago, but everyone's apparently still using chamberpots so the only apparent use for the sewers is a place for the Moreth Venn (thief-spy type organization) to hang out, heh.

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[info]catfish42
2004-04-14 09:05 pm UTC (link)
*Yes.* I've just been thinking about this! Most fantasy worlds seem to be stuck on the "Midieval" setting.

One thing I've been thinking about in regards to my own world is the introduction of writing (well, re-introduction...) and how their world changes and has changed because of it. Static worlds are far too easy. Change is *interesting*!

(...although it does give me more excuses to get stuck in "world building" mode as opposed to "writing" mode.)

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[info]limyaael
2004-04-16 06:20 am UTC (link)
*evil grin* The way to do it is to become so interested in a story idea or character that you find yourself jumping in and writing without considering it. And then more ideas develop out of the writing itself.

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[info]shoomlah
2004-04-14 11:13 pm UTC (link)
I'm especially annoyed when authors do nothing more than take a past culture, add magic and unicorns and such, and call it fantasy. Of course this can work wonderfully in certain situations, but I'd love to see authors sitting down and considering alternatives to our world's timeline. What would've the world been like without the French Revolution? What if the equivalent of the fertile crescent had been in the vicinity of, say, african-esque cultures as opposed to eurasian ones?

Really, there's so much you could do with a mondern fantasy universe that had its roots in Egyptian or Wodaabe civilisations... Hm.

-C

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[info]limyaael
2004-04-16 06:23 am UTC (link)
I used to absolutely hate that kind of fantasy, and refuse to read it. Now my two favorite authors both write historical fantasy, so I suppose I can say that my mind's changed, but those worlds are rigorously worked out historically, with medieval nastiness and consequences to the action, and not prettied-up scenes with unicorns.

I think that even better is an author creating a world out of whole cloth- some similarities to Earth's history, of course, because they're human themselves and probably have human-like creatures in the world, but fully changed by magic and environmental conditions unique to that world.

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[info]liathe
2004-04-15 01:50 am UTC (link)
Hey, this is spot on for what I'm writing at the moment - it's given me quite a bit to think about. :)

I was wondering the same thing about medieval societies in fantasy books - why a lot of them don't seem to move forward. I like fantasy societies which are based on a medieval model, but you see so many of them in fantasy books and sometimes it leaves me wishing for something a bit different. Or maybe I just haven't read enough books yet ...

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[info]limyaael
2004-04-16 06:24 am UTC (link)
I think there are too many "this is X society from Earth's history" fantasies, really- especially when the author has ideas that could completely change the course of their world's history if given free reign. Medievals are the most common and the most obnoxious, because authors seem content to ignore their basic conditions. But I would find it just as bad if all fantasies were Egyptian-based, say, or Greek-based. I just see so much potential in fantasy, too much to all be redirected into historical fantasy or Tolkien clones.

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[info]liathe
2004-04-16 08:23 am UTC (link)
I bought a book called The Weavers of Saramyr the other day - have you come across it? I haven't started reading it yet, but I just looked at its review on amazon and it looks promising. Here's a small snippet:

"Here the fantasy empire ruling the land of Saramyr has an oriental flavour, a level of technology that allows rifles and bombs and a communications system relying on magic--the sorcery of the dreaded, masked Weavers. By manipulating the magical Weave of the world, a kind of fantasy cyberspace, Weavers can not only send messages over any distance but manipulate minds, fight intangibly and kill. They are incidentally made rotted and cancerous by their masks, and have revolting habits such as raping and killing small children. Make no mistake, these are the bad guys."

Okay, so there are earth-flavoured elements to it ... but it sounds like a good example of a book where magic is the world's technology or science ... kinda what you were talking about in your first point.

Of course, I've yet to read it and it could be woefully awful! But I hope not; the blurb made me want to read it.

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[info]limyaael
2004-04-17 08:19 am UTC (link)
I've heard it's good, but Amazon insisted it was out of print. Did you find yours in any special place?

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[info]liathe
2004-04-17 08:56 am UTC (link)
It's just come out in paperback over here - I found it in a bookshop on a display of 'new books' in the fantasy section.

The review I read was on amazon.co.uk, looking at an edition that was released on April 8. Maybe they're planning to re-release the new edition in America sometime - there was another edition on amazon.co.uk that was published last year in May (which I thought was odd, since it's apparently only just come out over here).

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[info]johnnymcbadass
2004-04-15 04:35 am UTC (link)
There's also, in series which feature time travel (of the literal or figuritive sense), no change in dialect in a given world.

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[info]tavalya_ra
2004-04-15 04:38 am UTC (link)
1. I rebelled from the entire no techonology/no science/medieval times idea very early in my writing because it annoyed me. My world's backhistory does have a Dark Age that occurs because of an empire's collapse, but during the present time of the story, the level of technology has risen back to the same height and then some.

Bullocks to perfect monarchs. It's better to have them imperfect- they're human, too, you know.

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[info]limyaael
2004-04-16 06:26 am UTC (link)
See, I wouldn't mind the collapsing Empires at all if there was ever a sign they might recover, ever a Renaissance on the horizon. There doesn't seem to be. Miss Perfect Monarch supposedly changes the world by coming back to the throne, but where are the scientific and technological and magical and philosophical innovations? Nowhere at all.

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[info]marumae
2004-04-15 06:38 am UTC (link)
1) Show magic or technology changing in your fantasy world, or provide some reason why it wouldn't.

I can understand if this is the case as it was with some major details in Roman history or ancient culture, as the Roman's rarely wrote down anything. So archaeologists and historians are still doing an educated guess game with a lot of these. I personally wish more would have been mentioned with the few female Gladiators Rome had, there was a special but alot of that was guess work based on the male version of the games. What if it was entirely different, I'm drifting though anyway...

Where are the great discoveries, the treaties, the political and religious schisms, the plagues and famines, the social movements?

Now this I find odd, a lot of fantasy authors I've come across won't put a major plague or relgious revolution or change in their world because it would remind people too much of the black plague or the sudden Christian movement. Yet they have no qualms about designing a history and a country that is quite blatantly based off of Norse, U.K. and Roman Empire history? Right down to specific events? I can't count
how many celtic (Ireland) like islands I've come across... or Barbarian Viking like hords or heaven for bid, how many King Arthur clones; yet people conviently disguise by using a feminine version of Arthur. It's different when it's approached like Tolkien. A kind of half AU/half pre-history of England itself, Tolkien I believe admitted as much to this, but when authors hotly deny doing it's just sad.

(a theme inherited from Tolkien).
Even Tolkien had problems with this in his world! Remember all the worry about whether or not Mankind would be able to defeat the dark lord's armies? As they were disorganized and unfocused? Dwarves were mentioned as not being a bother to help as they cared only for the jewels and things in the earth and the elves...well the elves were so dead set on leaving and brooding the changes they didn't really want to interfere at all. Believing their time was over. So I'd like to see a fantasy where every other such and such country doesn't automatically join the hero's war effort because they make a rousing speech or do some magical deed that imeediately ingraines them in the person's mind as a true hero that must be followed. I'd personally love to see some bribing or groveling from some, or perhaps even a half hearted join like the French did with America during the American Revolution, they only helped us because they wanted any hit they could take against the British =3.

Great rant though!

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[info]dawnkiller
2004-04-15 07:01 am UTC (link)
(though I would find it fascinating to see more scientist heroes; mage heroes are a dime a dozen)

You really do need to read Perdido Street Station. The main character is the local equivalent of a physicist -- though because this world opted for the road of alchemy and magic their brand of science is just a liiittle different. Magic and science are both considered sciences to the point where the subjects overlap in their equivalent of university. (Also, he studied under a man who actually IS basically a mage -- and of the type that the judicial branch usually employs to mete out punishments. Very interesting.) Also, PSS has a complicated system of pseudo-democracy, and one of the subplots is heavily linked to a group of political dissenters . . . and another subplot deals with how the city's officials are handling with a current crisis, which includes them begging aid from their political allies . . . some of whom just happen to be from another plane of existence. Their embassy is fairly disturbing. Though whether you'll like the style is anyone's guess (I personally find it a bit hard to sink into), it's one of those books you enjoy reading just because it's so, so different -- and more, because it's all the possibilities of fantasy as a genre used to their fullest degree.

unless the author feels the need to add a plague from the Dark Lord or a famine that comes about because the right King isn't ruling the land.

The "Oh no, the land is in peril because our leader sucks!" thing is, like many of Tolkien's themes, a device that has a solid historical/theoretical basis but is often abused because no one bothers to actually think about it. Not sure where the convention originated (I think it was the Fisher King, wasn't it? Or was it Arthurian?), but a mythologist named James Frazer wrote a whole bigass book about it -- The Golden Bough, IIRC. I haven't ploughed through it myself, but I have had to learn some of Frazer's theory, and basically it's the idea that the land rises and falls with the king because the king is the embodiment of the fertility god. The emphasis is on the king's physical health, NOT whether or not he's an evil hump. And for this reason, the king is killed either before or as he's falling ill. Y'know, to protect the fertility god from being infected by the king's weakness.

With this in mind, what I would like to see is a story where the Good Queen beats the enemy, rules wisely for a few years, and is then sentenced to death because she's got the flu. Ha ha. (This custom would probably make most people think twice about making a grab for the throne, too. With conditions like that, who wants to be the ruler?)

As for #3, you can screw around with the king's connection to land/god by having monarchies be the default choice because the rulers are actually blessed by (or, as with the Greeks and Egyptians, actually descended from) the gods. I'm actually messing with a culture that has a dynasty originally installed by the god (or rather, its avatar), but which, like any dynasty, has turned up the inevitable bad apple. However, because the society has very close ties to its god and its ruler is technically also the head of the church, so insurrection is considered a really bad idea. The usurper actually has to get permission from the church (and the blessing of the god) to go ahead with the uprising . . . which involves, among other things, a very painful trial to prove his worth. Stupid king is ousted, new guy is put in -- but, while he proves to be a very effective ruler, he does horrible things like have magically-adept children raped and tortured because he thinks that's the most effective way to further the good of the country. And he still has the mark of god's blessing, so killing him would be not only regicide, but supreme blasphemy. It's a lot of fun. :)

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[info]limyaael
2004-04-16 06:32 am UTC (link)
Thanks for the recommendation on Perdido Street Station. I will definitely try to find it and read it.

I blame Terry Brooks for the corruption of the land/ruler idea. (I blame Terry Brooks for rather a lot, really). He has scenes that seem to imply the land starts dying the moment a bad guy gets on the throne and reverses the moment a good guy ascends it. But there don't seem to be famines or bad harvests or any sense of a regular growing season, even assuming that instant reversal.

Of course, the Year King idea in itself can get corrupt. I hate The Mists of Avalon with a burning passion partially because it has such simplification of that idea. (And because it's boring and flat and preachy and... I could go on). It makes it seem as if the Year King's whole purpose is to fit into that imaginary matriarchal mythology, rather than having any power on his own. Idiots.

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[info]onyxflame
2006-02-22 07:01 pm UTC (link)
What if you use the "king being tied to the land" bit the opposite way? Someone wants to kill the king, so they start chopping down a bunch of trees...

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[info]farmercuerden
2005-03-14 11:07 am UTC (link)
Hmm. It's in Oedipus Rex too, though, the King being tied to the land. You know, the plague?

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[info]otakukeith
2004-04-15 07:43 am UTC (link)
Amazingly, Robert Jordan gets #1 right - his world gets virtually smashed back into the Dark Ages twice in the 3000 years between the Breaking of the World and the time of the main events.

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[info]limyaael
2004-04-16 06:32 am UTC (link)
But all it takes is a Rand and everything will be right again! (The problem I have is not that powerful channelers exist, but that they somehow find them all over the place when they need them).

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[info]nextian
2004-04-15 10:37 am UTC (link)
Well, how long do you think it would take from creation to cities assuming magic helps technology to evolve? Which I think it does. If you could light little fires with your magic you wouldn't need to worry about striking rocks together, and if you could levitate things you wouldn't need to invent wheels.

....Oh my god, I think I just discovered the fatal flaw in all mage fantasies. Why the hell are there carts and horses? Why don't they hire mages to carry them?

Oooh, thank you for the vicious Nuzgul plotbunny eating my shoe!

(This nonsensical comment brought to you by too much coffee.)

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[info]bbhtryoink
2004-04-15 02:38 pm UTC (link)
Your icon...

I think I'm in love. =)

(Incidentally, I grew up in a Jewish home.)

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[info]nextian
2004-04-16 11:05 am UTC (link)
Thanks! I love it too. I gacked it from someone on journalfen, it's absolutely beautiful. And so true.

(I also saw one that said "Moses: He's like Jack Sparrow, in a way."

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[info]limyaael
2004-04-16 06:33 am UTC (link)
That could really be an interesting idea. Of course, most fantasy authors introduce limitations on magic (too rare, too expensive, too costly in terms of energy) that might make it less practical than relatively simple technology like the wheel.

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[info]nextian
2004-04-16 11:12 am UTC (link)
Yeah, I can see that. But I was thinking specifically in this case of, say, Tamora Pierce's world, in which mages are always just lighting up lamps and floating things and foretelling with little to no effort. Of course, it's a medieval world focused on wars...

It's sad to me, really, how much of fantasy is focused in medieval settings. I was going to create one based on the prehistory of this world, but unfortunately (fortunately?) something kept telling me that these people would not just sit around in trees for thousands of years. As it stands I have them creating their first city/town within 200 years. Maybe a bit extreme, but it's based entirely around magical "technology" from their world. And those without magic very peacefully founded a craftsman's city, and then the two cities had a minor natural disaster that forced them to cooperate, and they sent out settlers to a forest, and...Ok, I'll stop.

I never really found myself interested in warring history, possibly because I've never been any good at writing tragedy. Best, I think, are character-focused stories or stories in which the science of the magic is explored. Like, come to think about it, Tamora Pierce's other books (Circle of Magic). The ones where their lives are based on magic and totally reasonable...

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[info]limyaael
2004-04-17 08:22 am UTC (link)
Well, Earth human history doesn't have to be the only model for society in another world. I think that if a people had magic that was easily usable and tailored to the individual or to a specific group (which seems as if it would overcome the environment more easily than, say, science), they could rise faster through the stages of human civilization, or enter another civilization altogether.

What I do dislike is when the magical society is shown as a utopia and the technological society is shown as evil. Somehow, blowing mountains up with magic is so much better than blowing them up with gunpowder.

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[info]jacay
2004-04-15 05:54 pm UTC (link)
Have I ever told you how much I love your rants? Because these different points have given me so many different ideas it hurts. For example, one of my main characters will now be funding a group that's researching magic's true source, and when the kingdom topples, as it was originally going to, instead of going back to being a monarchy, it will become a republic. And a plague of moths sounds good, too.

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[info]limyaael
2004-04-16 06:33 am UTC (link)
Oooh! A republic in a fantasy world! *bounce* Glad I could help.

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[info]build_my_world
2004-04-15 05:56 pm UTC (link)
I followed a long chain of links to your journal, and read about 30 entries. I'm friending you because I just love the discussion about fantasy writing.

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[info]limyaael
2004-04-16 06:34 am UTC (link)
Good deal. Glad you're enjoying them. *friends you back*

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[info]robling_t
2004-04-16 03:55 am UTC (link)
Why not introduce a Marx-figure into your world and see what happens?

...Trying desperately to resist the goo-goo-eyes THAT plotbunny is flashing at me... :) (Actually it's not so far off from the prehistory that I've been kicking around for my "loose association of anarcho-syndicalist communes" world, either, I'll have to go back and consider things in that light if I do decide to take that on as a project in itself. I already knew that the particular culture-group's history had something to do with telling the founding-country of an overseas colony to get stuffed, but that would certainly put a new spin on the picture.)

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[info]limyaael
2004-04-16 06:35 am UTC (link)
Oh, it's a cute plotbunny. *encourages the goo-goo-eyes* I'd love to see what would happen in a fantasy using that.

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[info]camwyn
2004-04-16 12:36 pm UTC (link)
Does it count as a fantasy world if it hasn't got magic? I mean, one of the worlds I'm working on starts from the premise that some four hundred thousand years ago, a number of dimensional rifts opened up in numerous locations on our world and allowed creatures from Earth to wander through; among them were the dominant form of genus Homo at the time, and quite a few samples of fauna and flora, including Megaloceros giganteus. Thanks to climate change on the other side of the rift (we're talking borderline Snowball Earth scenario here), the transplants were unable to leave. Several hundred thousand years later, civilization finally began to take hold there- domestication of animals, agriculture, etc.- and that's when my stories start.

It's not really what you'd call science fiction, I don't think; we're talking about a time frame where people consider things like smelting copper to be a tremendous leap of technology. But the central society I'm focusing on doesn't use magic, either- nor does it even much believe in magic. It's people living in a world that isn't Earth, coming out of a millennia-long Ice Age and starting to properly explore their world, eventually running into 'variant' humans (the majority of those who made the crossing developed into something like H. sapiens, but quite a few went down a much more H. neanderthalensis path) and bizarre cultures. They've got a goddess (created the world, but has a short attention span, so she's rarely prayed to beyond the basics of praise and thanks) and a number of demigods/saints... just not magic. Is it fantasy, sf, speculative fiction, or...?

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[info]limyaael
2004-04-17 08:26 am UTC (link)
I'd call it fantasy. Low-tech alternate world, goddess rather than a secular society, explanation for how the humans got between one world and another that sounds an awful lot like magic... to me, science fiction has different characteristics. I suppose if you focused on developments of the "soft" sciences like anthropology it could be science fiction, but even those books usually do have modern Earth humans coming into contact with the alien/changed-from-human society, rather than pre-modern humans.

I don't think the book has to have magic to be fantasy. I consider Guy Gavriel Kay's historical fantasies to still fit the term, even though two of them (A Song For Arbonne and The Lions of Al-Rassan) have extremely small amounts of magic. In fact, the only magic in his alternative Spain is a child who can see into the future, which could be interpreted as psychic powers if you really wanted to get anal about it. But he prefers the label fantasy, and so do I. I think "fantasy" is a broader ground than "science fiction." That has one of its defining characteristics in the title. Fantasy isn't called "magical fiction," though.

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[info]avrelia
2004-04-16 02:38 pm UTC (link)
But – medieval setting is pretty – it has knights, and dragons, and princesses, and cute castles… Why would anybody want to change that? /end silliness

Seriously, I am glad that you are feeling well and ranty again. ;) Amazing, how quickly one gets addicted to your rants. I mean, all those things bother me, when I read fantasy, but you put it all together so succinctly.

I can understand why medieval setting is so alluring. First, it is a generic fairytale setting, second, Tolkien influence, third, over-romanticized view on medieval epoch. I actually find The Middle Ages quite fascinating, and an interesting setting for a story, but I’ve read a decent number of books on topic, and the real Middle Ages have very little in common with the generic fantasy version. Time and place change the picture radically. The notion of Christendom, the system of vassalage, the role of the Christian Church – and the break onto Catholic and Orthodox (it happened in XI century), The Crusades, plagues, lepers - and that is only the surface. Again, there is no need to stick with it – if people prefer European history, there are other cool periods; history is delicious, but, you know, some research is needed for the unusual settings, not everybody wants to do it.

The interesting – and accurate setting will also make help the plot not-contrived by adding real conflicts. What if witches were not so good (I know, it is non-PC)? And the Holy Inquisition actually protected citizens, for example? Infinite possibilities, non-related to rebellious teenage princesses. And it doesn’t have to be an actual Earth History – just enough realistic details to make the world work. But I’ve seen also enough unusual settings that make me cringe – mostly the ones that like a Christmas tree, where all the details are just embellishments.

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[info]limyaael
2004-04-17 08:29 am UTC (link)
That's why I think my favorite two authors actually do write medieval-inspired fantasies, and I still find them vastly interesting. They take into account what the world would really have been like, instead of prettying it up with princesses. One even has a princess main character, but she's married off, miscarries, suffers great losses, and so on, which makes her a realistic human being. It's not even certain she'll take the throne in the end, since she has powerful opponents.

I think those two authors also carefully combine magic with history, so that readers aren't starving for either. I find it hard to read books that have a lot of magic but haven't let that magic realistically affect the development of their world. They still have castles, for examples. Why, when mages can throw fireballs over the walls?

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[info]avrelia
2004-04-17 09:00 am UTC (link)
They still have castles, for examples. Why, when mages can throw fireballs over the walls?

That, and the fact that castles are actually quite uncomfortable for living. They cannot be properly warmed, there were drafts, cold stone walls, sanitary was questionable.
Of course, magic can take care of this, but mostly it is overlooked.

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[info]criada
2004-06-10 02:12 pm UTC (link)
Hey, I've been reading through all your older posts, and I had to comment on this one, because, GAHHHH! I just made a rant about this exact thing, and damn, you phrased it so much better than me, since everyone who read mine seemed to think I was wondering why no one mixed magic and technology, when I'm wondering why no one treats them the same!
So yes, I'm going to keep watching your journal, since you make interesting points, and I'll probably friend you so I can keep up and participate in the fascinating discussions that happen under your name.

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[info]kdorian
2005-01-19 11:44 pm UTC (link)
Have you ever read the Lord Darcy series by Randall Garrett? It's very much like what you're talking about - alternate earth, where Richard the Lion-Hearted didn't die on the Crusades, and a where the rules of magic were discovered and codified. I found it fascinating because of the way that things (especially the sciences) developed differently than they did in our world, and over the course of the books you can see subtle advances in magic technology.

Also, if you're looking for books that are out of print, I really recommend half.com.

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[info]onyxflame
2006-02-22 07:22 pm UTC (link)
There's also The Years Of Rice & Salt</i> by...err, 2 guys I forget the names of right off hand. It explores what might've happened if the Plague had killed off 99.999999% of the Europeans instead of 60% or however much it actually was. There's really no magic (though there is reincarnation, which might annoy you), but stuff definitely happens differently than in the real world.

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[info]onyxflame
2006-02-22 06:24 pm UTC (link)
1) Show magic or technology changing in your fantasy world, or provide some reason why it wouldn't.

I always wondered about this with Eddings. Belgarath is 7000 years old, and the technology stayed the same all through his lifetime? Yeesh.

2) Why do monarchies remain stable so long?

I'm not entirely sure how the government in my world works, but it's not all monarchies. In at least one country, the bigger cities are fairly independent as far as laws are concerned, and ruled by Magistrates. There's also various nobles floating around, whose main function seems to be stepping in when the Magistrates do something they don't like. And one city is either ruled by the mages, or some complex power system involving the mages and the Magistrates, who don't always agree.

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[info]robertsb
2007-11-20 06:49 pm UTC (link)
The development of science needs an appropriate philosophy, so that would be an aspect worth considering. The dominant philosophy during most of the medieval period was realism, which held that the things we see around us are mere shadows, or 'accidents' of some inaccessible ultimate essence, or 'substance'. So there was no particular point in studying, say, rocks, in order to find out what they were all about. You went to authorities like the Bible, Plato or Aristotle. Around the 14th century, there was a paradigm shift to nominalism, which held that the essence of a thing was contained within the thing itself, and this led to people looking more closely at the things around them, in order to learn about them, and ultimately to the development of science.

The shift took place within the church, and to this day science uses the same system of logic that medieval theologians used in their debates. So without the church, there might be no science! Galileo isn't the whole story by any means, and he did take the mickey out of the Pope, which wasn't very sensible if you lived in Italy.

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