Limyaael ([info]limyaael) wrote,
@ 2004-06-14 22:33:00
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Current mood: ranty
Entry tags:fantasy rants: spring 2004, gender rants

Rant on gay and lesbian characters in fantasy, for [info]kannaophelia
And [info]tavalya_ra. And [info]troubadour118. And [info]bbhtryoink. And lots of other people.

(Warning: Vicious, big-time spoilers for Lackey's Last Herald-Mage and Arrows trilogies, the first book of Fiona Patton's Branion series, S. M. Stirling's and Shirley Meier's Fifth Millennium books, and Lynn Flewelling's Nightrunner series. Minor spoilers for Ellen Kushner's Swordspoint).



1) If you're going to have non-heterosexual characters, show them. Don't be coy about it. This is a real difference between the treatment of heterosexual romance versus the treatment of homosexual (or bisexual) romance in fantasy. If the author hints about a heterosexual relationship, it's almost always because of some Dark Secret behind it, such as the man and woman involved being the real parents of the mysterious orphan. She doesn't usually deny that sex happened. But hinting coyly about two men or two women, in the "Maybe they're sleeping together, maybe they're not" fashion, just sets my teeth on edge.

Look. Yes, for some people this is still a controversial topic. Just read the Amazon reviews for any fantasy that includes a gay relationship, such as Lynn Flewelling's Stalking Darkness, and you'll see some people who get upset and give the book low ratings because of the sexuality of the characters. But if you're going to tackle the topic, hinting around the edges about it is more harmful than not including any gay or lesbian characters in the book at all. At least, if the only men and women on the stage are attracted to the opposite sex, the reader is free to imagine that the characters who aren't exist somewhere else, or write slash fanfiction in which the onstage characters get together. But hinting? That reduces people to the land of coy giggles and the love that dare not speak its name again.

If the author feels, for whatever reason, that she absolutely can't include gay characters in her books because of the public backlash, then why in the world is she including hints? Why handle any controversial topic at all, for that matter? It's always possible for a book to fail to sell well, and a heavy-handed statement on feminism or religion can kill it as effectively as an onstage gay relationship.

2) Oh, Teh Tragedy! Oh, Teh Doom! Oh, Teh Angst! Here's something I don't get: Why, in fantasy worlds where the balance of sexuality is different and the society is portrayed as less prejudiced than our own modern one, do gay and lesbian characters wind up living incredibly over-angsty lives anyway?

Take Vanyel from the Last Herald-Mage trilogy (yes, again). He comes from a society that initially seems incredibly prejudiced, with a narrow-minded father and a sexuality so repressed he has never considered the idea that he might be attracted to his own gender. Then he goes among the Heralds, who are much more open-minded, and meets the openly gay Tylendel. They lifebond- yes, Lackey does lifebonds- and then Tylendel goes insane from the death of his twin brother and magical pretty white telepathic horse, and commits suicide in a fashion that just happens to give Vanyel incredible pain and the strongest magic that anyone has ever seen. Is that enough?

Of course not. Maybe if they were heterosexual, but these are people who sleep with their own gender! They must angst some more!

Vanyel, using his new mind-gifts, overhears the prejudiced thoughts of the apparently one Herald who hates gay people. Everyone else is welcoming, but none of them are sitting by the bed, of course. This one thinks that Vanyel caused Tylendel to commit suicide. So off Vanyel goes and slashes his wrists.

The Bad Herald is properly chastened. Then Vanyel's homophobic father shows up, spouts some rhetoric that even Pat Buchanan wouldn't touch, and is properly chastened. And, a couple of books later, when Vanyel does find someone else to love (who just happens to be Tylendel reincarnated, but we won't touch that agonizingly stupid idea right now), he dies almost immediately. His lover does eventually join him as a happy ghost haunting a forest, which supposedly makes it all better.

What was the point of that? "Damn, love someone of your own gender and you are screwed?"

Lackey's lesbians fare no better. A couple of them in her Arrows trilogy are happy little lifebonded people, with another woman longing on the outside looking in. Then one of the lifebonded partners dies, and her lover mourns- only to have the woman who's always loved her come running over in tears, and lifebond with her immediately. Hmm.

Maybe the message is, "Well, love someone of your own gender, and your partner will die. But don't worry, we'll get you another one!"

Even fantasy societies where bisexuality is the norm fare no better. Fiona Patton's Branion series is interesting in that genders are absolutely equal, down to title (Duke Isolde, Prince Kassandra, etc.), women fight in the wars, and many of the nobility have Companions, lovers of their own sex trained as spies, along with husbands and wives. Everyone accepts this, and the Companions don't seem jealous of the spouses or vice versa. Yet in The Stone Prince, where the big love story is between the Prince Demnor IV and his Companion Kelahnus, Kelahnus angsts about being put aside for Demnor's future wife Duke Isolde. Despite the fact that Demnor isn't all that attracted to her, and actually has to be conned into sleeping with her. Despite the fact that Isolde's Companion doesn't seem jealous. Despite the fact that he isn't put aside. Oh, and Demnor's evil mother Melisandra makes efforts to separate them, too.

I think we'd better revise that message again. "Minor characters in love with their own gender may get away scot-free, but be a main character and the author will torment you with angst!"

Piffle. Fantasy is so wide. Why not make homosexual and bisexual characters who struggle with problems not caused by their sexuality? Since, you know, they're people too? Or why not make them just have a normal relationship, with problems in other areas? Why should the heterosexuals have it so easy?

3) Rape does NOT make a woman a lesbian. No, really. I would say that one of the very worst things any fantasy writer can do is introduce a rape into a story with a lesbian character. Even if she somehow managed to avoid the implication that her character is really heterosexual and only started sleeping with women because she is forever frightened of men, the story runs the risk of falling into the "rape-and-revenge" genre. And, as tiresome anthology after tiresome anthology of rape-and-revenge stories has proved, at this point there's not much left to mine from the theme.

Think about it for just a second, hmm? Whether you believe that sexual orientation is the result of genetics or the result of a choice, what does it say about either that a woman is only sleeping with her own gender because she was raped? It certainly denies that any woman would make the free choice on her own, because of genetics or not. "There aren't any real lesbians," says such a scenario. "There are only frightened women who are taking what chance at sex they can get." It also binds rape to sex again, and ignores the violent part of the crime. And, finally, it implies that any sexual life a woman leads is always connected back to the male. She sleeps with him, or she sleeps with women because of him.

Not the most progressive thing to be saying, really.

I know you are thinking at the moment that only stupid fanfic does this, and not any published fantasy. Wrong. The Fifth Millennium series, which is set in guess-what-time-period after a nuclear apocalypse, has a character, Meghan Shadow'sDaughter, who starts out apparently heterosexual; she certainly only sleeps with men. Then she's raped.

Guess who her next partner is?

The authors of Saber and Shadow (S. M. Stirling and Shirley Meier) are to be commended for having their characters sleep together at all, I suppose. And one of them, Shkai'ra, does seem to be a bisexual woman who sleeps with both genders by choice, and genuinely falls in love with Meghan. Meghan, though, obviously has a lot of issues, even eight years after the rape, and actually thinks that it feels odd to be touched, and then actually thinks that she couldn't stand to have a man touch her, but a woman wouldn't be so bad. If this was her free choice, don't you think she might have discovered it sometime before this? Even if she didn't discover her attraction to women until later in life, couldn't it be detached from the rape?

Obviously not. Because, god damn it, we know that women couldn't possibly want to sleep with each other freely.

4) Surely not all gay men are fashion-templates. Surely, in fantasies where they ride around and fight monsters constantly and have sweat pouring all over them, they shouldn't be. Yet it seems that any homosexual man in fantasy must inevitably know all about clothes, dress to kill, and probably coax his boyfriend who doesn't dress as well into becoming a fashion-template too.

Vanyel dresses to kill, of course. (I appreciate Lackey's concern that her readers might try to ignore her character's sexuality, since she was writing in the late 80's-early 90's, but making your character a stereotype goes too far the other way). So does Lynn Flewelling's Seregil, and he teaches his younger partner, Alec, to dress the same way. This is explained as part of the art of disguise, since Seregil is a spy. Of course, he just happens to be a spy who dresses as a nobleman most of the time, and in clothes that get described a lot. I see.

Ellen Kushner's Swordspoint is rather refreshing in this regard, since one of the main characters is a swordsman, his rapier his most important piece of dress, and the other one wanders around in a student's robe for the majority of the story and doesn't give a good goddamn. However, when I found myself breathing a sigh of relief about that, my mood soured. What does it say about fantasy that apparently gay male characters absolutely must have a sense of fashion, despite most fantasies not having near the sanitary facilities, technology, or context in which such a thing would make a lot of sense?

I don't know. Ask the fantasy authors writing that stereotype in.

5) Avoid the compensation vibes. This is the idea, possibly easiest to stumble into when you have a bisexual character but certainly not unproblematic for gay and sapphic ones, that homosexual love is somehow purer and nobler than heterosexual love, and that even if the character looked at the opposite gender in the past, certainly he or she won't now. With a bisexual character, it also sometimes works the other way around; they wind up with an opposite-gender partner at the end, and they are just oh so happy!

Quit this shit. Idealizing one particular kind of romance never works, I think, but there are some tactics that are easier to avoid than others:

a) If the character is bisexual, and did have an opposite-gender relationship at some point in the past, do not demonize that other man/woman and make them into a horrible, horrible person. It's as stupid and shallow as a heterosexual love triangle where the Other Woman is a conniving shrew. It also makes me wonder about the intelligence of the bisexual character. If the other person was really that horrible, how did he or she fall in love with them in the first place?

b) Don't include long polemics on how much more understanding someone of one's own gender is. Instead, show me that this particular man really gets his guy, or that these two women belong with each other no matter what. It's a lot better to give a true love story between a couple (or more partners than that) with passion for each other, not just passion in comparison to some relationship in the past.

c) Do not, for the love of all that is holy, compare the sexual performance of one partner to another. I snicker when a heterosexual heroine's true love is the only one able to give her orgasms, which of course her evil ex could never do. I find it no less amusingly sickening when a woman has had sexual problems all her life with a husband or male lover, but of course sleeps with another woman and gets off five times all at once. If someone really does have a sexual neurosis, it should take longer than that to heal it.

6) Even in love with another person of the same sex, these should still be your characters. This applies to romance in general. Whenever I see signs that one character in a fantasy novel is in love with another, whatever the gender combination, I brace myself. Half the time, the previous characterization of these people rides the express train to hell.

Suddenly, a character who has acted snobbish all through the book is amazingly tender and sweet. Suddenly, someone who never angsted before is covered with angst, because, OMG, how can I love someone of the same sex, despite there being no prohibitions in the fantasy world against it?!? Suddenly, someone who has said that she values personality above looks is melting because she caught a glimpse of the other character bathing. (This is a stupid-ass plot device. How so many fantasy characters manage to miss the fact that the other hasn't come back from the pool or river yet and stumble on them by mistake, I will never know. Perhaps fantasy water produces moron gas).

Do keep your characterization consistent, hmmm? This is one place where slash fanfiction and original fantasy with bisexual or homosexual characters separates incredibly. Slash fanfiction can be written on subtext in the original series, in a gray zone where canon sexuality and attraction are left ambiguous, or in utter defiance of stated sexuality because the writer wants the characters together. When you write original fantasy, however, you are creating the canon. If you want the character in a relationship, you can easily enough write the story so that she becomes someone who is believable both before and after she becomes involved with another woman. You don't have to twist your gay male character against the grain if you know that he's going to be gay. Jettisoning who this character has been to create a Stereotypical Sapphist or Stereotypical Gay Man is breathing the moron gas, and tumbling back into a country where it’s easy to write characters spying on each other while bathing again.

7) Don't write gay message fantasy. That's what the Last Herald-Mage trilogy is, and that's why it can't rise above a certain level. It includes an extended scene in which another gay character (who, of course, accidentally killed his lover and also tried to commit suicide- what are these normal lives you speak of?) tells Vanyel all about the homosexual swans and wolves, how people Don't Understand, how He Must Be Strong, etc. When polemic takes over from the story, you're better off writing an essay or a pamphlet.

This is something that's very, very easy to fall into, especially if you have The Gay Relationship of Angsty-Doom. At a certain point, your characters stop being characters and become poster children for gay rights.

That's the wrong way around, I would think. It increases the gaping chasm between heterosexuals and non-heterosexuals, instead of closing it. Why not write characters who may be gay or lesbian, and are also strong, proud, wonderful, flawed people, not poster children? Either form of idealization, as incredibly perfect and pure or incredibly tormented, gives the victory to the polemic.

Besides, write message fantasy and you run the risk of any message fantasy- that your audience will get irritated at being whacked in the face with a sledgehammer, and go away.



Well. Certainly had a lot more to say about that than I thought I did. And I think that’s the longest rant I’ve ever written.




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[info]troubadour118
2004-06-14 07:56 pm UTC (link)
Every person who intends to put slash in their stories/original fictions needs to read this. Thank you for putting so much effort into this!

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]limyaael
2004-06-14 08:15 pm UTC (link)
*blush* Thank you! I had immense fun writing it.

And I would like to see more fantasies with gay and lesbian characters (especially lesbian ones, which are rarer), but not if so many of them are just going to tread these paths.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]tiferet, 2004-06-14 09:01 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2004-06-15 07:24 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]troubadour118, 2004-06-14 10:11 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2004-06-15 07:25 pm UTC

[info]marumae
2004-06-14 07:59 pm UTC (link)
Certainly had a lot more to say about that than I thought I did.

Well that's because, Limyaael darling you realized you are madly in love with me and simply must use your ranting on horrible fantasies problems to vent this. XD (sorry I couldn't resist).


Here's something I don't get: Why, in fantasy worlds where the balance of sexuality is different and the society is portrayed as less prejudiced than our own modern one, do gay and lesbian characters wind up living incredibly over-angsty lives anyway?

This is something I never understood, myself either. Good, rant; I say that, in order to have some equality with homosexuality, it shouldn't be portrayed as going either way (overly angsty or undeniably happy either) why not give homosexual couples the same kind of middle-of-the-road treatment, heterosexual couples have? But the problem with this is, quite often it's one or the other and there's always someone to complain about it and quite often the person isn't homosexual themselves. *Shakes head* it reminds me of when racial slang is used in fiction and movies and people get all offended for me.

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[info]limyaael
2004-06-14 08:18 pm UTC (link)
Well that's because, Limyaael darling you realized you are madly in love with me and simply must use your ranting on horrible fantasies problems to vent this. XD (sorry I couldn't resist).

Sadly, I am already secretly married to [info]erythros. XD

not give homosexual couples the same kind of middle-of-the-road treatment, heterosexual couples have?

I don't know, but I suspect it's for the same reason that people treat characters who have disabilities, or different religions, or, yes, different skin colors, with kid gloves. They can't see them as people. They see them as represntatives of their particular minority, and then the story goes straight to hell.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]erythros, 2004-06-14 09:08 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]marumae, 2004-06-15 07:11 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]marumae, 2004-06-15 07:16 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]ingriam, 2006-04-20 09:48 pm UTC

[info]youraugustine
2004-06-14 08:09 pm UTC (link)
spouts some rhetoric that even Pat Buchanan wouldn't touch

Sadly, then, I know a lot of people worse than Pat Buchanan. I remember reading that passage for the first time and being hurt by how close to home some of the things his father was saying hit, because I'd heard very, very similar spiels from others.

And quite frankly, when I was thirteen-fourteen, living in homophobic shit-town where I did hear that kind of rhetoric all the time, with my own bisexuality beginning to smack me in the face as the hormones hit? Keren and Ysla and godwhatevertheheckhernamewas and that sad little triangle were exactly what I needed. Because whatever hands and knocks that fate was dealing them were, they were good, mostly-balanced people.

Which, granted, sort of points out the age-limit on her writing. ::laughs:: But meh.

I find it no less amusingly sickening when a woman has had sexual problems all her life with a husband or male lover, but of course sleeps with another woman and gets off five times all at once.

Happens, actually, particularly with women, given how wired into our perceptions sexual enjoyment seems to be, and it isn't hard to see why. Considering a touch on the shoulder from someone you're actually attracted to feels ververy different from one from someone you're not . . . .

I honestly must be reading the wrong fantasy. ::shakes head::

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]limyaael
2004-06-14 08:25 pm UTC (link)
Which, granted, sort of points out the age-limit on her writing. ::laughs:: But meh.

I think that's the problem with it. I read the Last Herald-Mage trilogy when I was 14, and "had my eyes opened," and then cried my eyes out (though I was immensely irritated, even at the time, by the reincarnation and sappy-ghosts thing). But when I tried to reread it again, I ran smack against the limitations of it. I think that if it had been an effective story for me, as well as an effective teenage message fantasy, it would have aged much better.

I also get uneasy because people praise it, on Amazon and elsewhere, as the best fantasy dealing with gay characters. And that strikes me as pretty dangerous. Or, at least, incredibly sad.

Happens, actually, particularly with women, given how wired into our perceptions sexual enjoyment seems to be, and it isn't hard to see why. Considering a touch on the shoulder from someone you're actually attracted to feels ververy different from one from someone you're not . .

It bothers me because so many times (in the heterosexual version, which the kind of homosexual story I was talking about is a variation of) the woman is presented as having a problem not with men, but as having an actual sexual neurosis- she's afraid of sex, she has problems with emotional intimacy, etc. And all it takes is the right lover to make her feel better. Uh-huh. It's on a par with a character grieving for years on years on years and then suddenly getting that special quest or lover or power and being all better. The author wants the cake of trauma and the eating of an easy solution, without any of the work of baking.

And now my metaphos are all screwed up. *is tired*

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]youraugustine, 2004-06-14 08:32 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2004-06-14 08:36 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]otakukeith, 2004-06-15 04:23 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2004-06-15 07:29 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]hazgarn, 2007-11-28 01:24 am UTC

[info]jacay
2004-06-14 08:23 pm UTC (link)
Even if The Last Herald-Mage Trilogy was over-angsty and incredibly cliched, I think it's still good that a writer as popular as Lackey wrote about openly gay characters. This isn't the way they should be portrayed, but at least they're being portrayed.

That said, are there any good fantasy books about gay characters who aren't cliched like that?

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[info]limyaael
2004-06-14 08:28 pm UTC (link)
See my comment above for what I think of that. Such portrayals are actually more harmful, in some ways, than the silence they're meant to correct. Vanyel is incredibly stereotyped- pretty, effeminate, fashion-template, emotional at the drop of a hat, suicidal. I don't think he's a good portrayal of a gay man at all.

That said, are there any good fantasy books about gay characters who aren't cliched like that?

I liked Swordspoint, though it's darker and grittier and has a style you have to get used to a little. Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire also has characters who seem to be gay and bisexual, but their sexuality isn't treated as the whole of their existence.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]tavalya_ra, 2004-06-14 08:54 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]erythros, 2004-06-14 09:11 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]otakukeith, 2004-06-15 04:25 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]kyuuketsukirui, 2004-06-14 09:09 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2004-06-14 09:11 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]rianax, 2005-09-13 11:36 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]kyuuketsukirui, 2004-06-14 09:05 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]amazon_syren, 2007-04-12 02:53 am UTC

[info]calanthe_b
2004-06-14 08:27 pm UTC (link)
The thing about Seregil and clothes...they don't get described all that much, except when they are being used as disguises, as you say, because the clothes are part of the way Seregil constructs a character. And teaching Alec about them is on the same level--it's like the lessons in using the right eating implements. Seregil is teaching Alec how to pass as a born member of an order of society several dozen levels above what he was born into and knowing how to wear and manage certain types of clothes is part of that. When they get to Seregil's homeland,a gain, clothes are important because they're indicative of cultural differences.

~shrugs~ Sometimes attention to clothes has nothing to do with the sexuality of the characters and everything to do with the situation they're put in.

But I still do love Richard St Vier and his attachment to brown, and Alec in his scholar's robe and scruffy shirts...

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[info]limyaael
2004-06-14 08:31 pm UTC (link)
I suppose I was disappointed partly because I'd heard the Nightrunners series hyped (as Last Herald-Mage gets hyped) as completely different and unique and wonderful in its portrayal of gay characters, so it would have been nice not to have ones who were fashion-plates, however it was described. And, too, part of it is that I was so savagely disappointed by her destiny-ridden Tamir Trilogy that it's caused me to look at Nightrunner again, and revise some of my additional judgments on it.

But I still do love Richard St Vier and his attachment to brown, and Alec in his scholar's robe and scruffy shirts...

Yes! They're so ordinary that I didn't even realize that the endless descriptions of clothes were "missing" until 3/4 of the way through the book. And that's always my favorite way to discover that a story is different, have it creep up on me.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]tiferet, 2004-06-14 08:46 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2004-06-14 08:53 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]tiferet, 2004-06-14 09:09 pm UTC
Ha ha, I just have to chime in here. - [info]dawnkiller, 2004-06-14 11:30 pm UTC
Re: Ha ha, I just have to chime in here. - [info]tavalya_ra, 2004-06-15 09:59 am UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2004-06-18 12:09 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]herongale, 2004-06-15 07:09 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]tavalya_ra, 2004-06-15 10:01 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]herongale, 2004-06-15 10:20 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]tavalya_ra, 2004-06-15 11:50 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]herongale, 2004-06-15 12:49 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]onyxflame, 2006-02-24 04:46 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]calanthe_b, 2004-06-14 08:50 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2004-06-14 08:55 pm UTC

[info]tavalya_ra
2004-06-14 08:41 pm UTC (link)
(who just happens to be Tylendel reincarnated, but we won't touch that agonizingly stupid idea right now)

I think I could accept reincarnated soul mates if they didn't just look at each other and know that OMGourloveissopure! No. Even if they're meant to be together, they have different personalities now and they have to go through all the crap they did (or should have) gone through the first time around to make the relationship work. (I say this because I do have reincarnation going on. I like to use it to totally screw over relationships. It's funny!)

However as for point two... My homosexual couples do seem to suffer. However, these are not for reasons that have anything to do with their orientation. It's because the homosexual couples interest me, so I tend to draw them into the plot, which means stuff happens to them. Otherwise, really, they're only there to have beautiful (although never explicitly described) sex and moon about in love. Which is just not interesting. (He's not agnsting because he's gay and you're his lover. He's agnsting because there are a bunch of people trying to kill him and you're being a total arse.)

If I have a heterosexual couple in the spotlight, they will suffer just as much as the homosexual couple. Because stuff happens to them. Otherwise they, too, are just having beautiful sex (but this time with babies) and mooning about in love. Which is also boring. (Even more boring than the homosexual couple in my opinion, but what can I say? I'm a yaoi/yuri fangirl.)

4. All right, I do have a character who cares a lot about his clothes. He's bisexual. I'm not sure how many male lovers he has had. His wife has a tendency to get jealous and push them down stairs.

6. Yes! Screwy romances are more fun! (But then, screwy romances tend to have agnst-by-stupidity.)

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]limyaael
2004-06-14 08:46 pm UTC (link)
Vanyel does have a few problems with Stefan at first, but they're all worries about his being older and about betraying his dead love. There isn't any serious clash of personalities. And, of course, how could there be? Lackey brought Tylendel back just so they could fall in love again.

My homosexual couples do seem to suffer. However, these are not for reasons that have anything to do with their orientation.

Well, suffering does drive plot. It's the extreme, over-the-top, entirely-out-of-place-in-the-setting suffering that I mind. (Thus that mini-rant about them just happening to leave the one homophobic Herald in the place by Vanyel's bed that I mind).

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(no subject) - [info]rianax, 2005-09-13 11:42 pm UTC

[info]kdorian
2004-06-14 08:51 pm UTC (link)
I added you because of your last rant (Hi!) which I read earlier today, and a quick review of your page convinced me you were someone whose rants I would want to read.

Then I check my friends page and find this gem. Marvelous! I'm not sure I agree with all your points, but you've got me thinking. I'm finding this rant incredibly helpful because, long story short, I'm writing a story where this is stuff I have to think about, so thank you!

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[info]limyaael
2004-06-14 08:56 pm UTC (link)
Hi! Thanks for telling me.

Then I check my friends page and find this gem. Marvelous! I'm not sure I agree with all your points, but you've got me thinking. I'm finding this rant incredibly helpful because, long story short, I'm writing a story where this is stuff I have to think about, so thank you!

*grin* I aim to make people think, because fantasy is worth thinking about. If someone can look at one of my rants, think, "I'll show you," and write a fantasy that shows me, whether it's by flatly refuting something I said or spinning an old idea in a new way, then I'm happy.

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(no subject) - [info]kdorian, 2004-06-14 09:09 pm UTC

[info]holyschist
2004-06-14 09:07 pm UTC (link)
If the author feels, for whatever reason, that she absolutely can't include gay characters in her books because of the public backlash, then why in the world is she including hints?

Here's looking at YOU, Tamora "Yes they're lesbians but if you want YA fiction that comes out and admits it read Francesca Lia Block" Pierce.

What if I want YA fantasy with queer characters NOT written in insanely purple, stylistic prose, hmm?

/bitter

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[info]limyaael
2004-06-14 09:09 pm UTC (link)
Reason #9,453,678 to be glad that I've read only a few books of hers.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]holyschist, 2004-06-15 11:44 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]kannaophelia, 2004-06-14 09:45 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]holyschist, 2004-06-15 11:44 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]ahayweh, 2004-06-15 02:56 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]calanthe_b, 2004-06-15 09:50 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]blackjackrocket, 2004-06-15 12:43 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]calanthe_b, 2004-06-15 09:52 pm UTC

[info]childofatlantis
2004-06-14 09:58 pm UTC (link)
I rather suspect that I couldn't stand to read the Last Herald-Mage books now, but I wish I'd known there was fantasy with overtly gay couples in it when I was sixteen...

Are there any well-handled series/books you recommend?

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]limyaael
2004-06-15 07:31 pm UTC (link)
Kushner's Swordspoint and The Fall of the Kings (the latter of which I have not read, but which apparently is pretty well-done and includes a homosexual relationship). Tanya Huff is apparently very matter-of-fact about homosexuality in her world, in a series that I think starts with Sing the Four Quarters. And, of course, George R. R. Martin is pretty damn casual with sex in general.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Just a generic Yay!
[info]xianghua
2004-06-15 12:23 am UTC (link)
Have you read Jacquiline Carey's Kushiel books? Some interesting bisexual characters there, particularly her masochistic (in the sexual-literal sense, rather than angst-sense) heroine, sadistic-evil-bitch baddie (who isn't really evil, IMO, just ... grabby ^_^), and a whole cast of minor characters (male and female) who are clients of the heroine (who is a courtesan). Not great lit, but an enjoyable read, I thought, and a nice change- although I *do* think the one commited gay relationship we see ends rather bloodily, as the participants get murdered.

Anyway, reason I was commenting was to thank you for the big detailed review of Martin's Game of Thrones stuff. I'd picked it up before, gone 'ehhh' and put it back like 8 times, but I read the first 100 pages in the bookstore yesterday and can't WAIT until payday to go back and get it....

Cait

I keep thinking of more things, but in Mercedes Lackey's defense, what about the two gay mercenaries (whose names I can't recall) in the Tarma and Kethry books? They weren't so blatently stereotypical- at least, I don't remember them being....Eh... not that it matters. It'd take a LOT of well-fleshed out characters to make up for WoeIsMeEveryoneHatesMeWhiiiiiiine Vanyel....

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Just a generic Yay!
[info]limyaael
2004-06-15 07:32 pm UTC (link)
YES! Another Martin fan! Well, do let me know how you like it (or post a review/rant/rambling in your own journal, and I will comment).

I only read a few Tarma and Kethry short stories, not the novels, so I don't remember the gay mercenaries. What were they like?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Just a generic Yay! - [info]xianghua, 2004-06-15 08:25 pm UTC

[info]otakukeith
2004-06-15 03:57 am UTC (link)
I think you should copyright the phrase 'breathing the moron gas'. :D

I haven't read much fantasy with homosexual characters, so I haven't encountered most of the problems you've highlighted. One thing I have noticed and laughed at is that a lot of authors seem more than happy to include homosexuals of the opposite gender but not those of their own gender. Viz. Anne McCaffrey's green dragonriders (how come men can Impress female dragons but women never Impress male dragons? Is it being gay that gives them this ability? So where da lesbians?) and Robert Jordan's sister-wives and pillow friends.

I've also read a science fiction book (by Ben Bova, who I really must write a rant about at some point) where a woman is raped and becomes a lesbian, though the connection between the two isn't explicit. Come to think of it, she's not his only downtrodden lesbian character, and he's another guy who doesn't have any gay male characters.

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[info]otakukeith
2004-06-15 10:51 am UTC (link)
In other news, I finally wrote my first you-inspired rant about annoying things in fiction. It's here:

http://www.livejournal.com/users/otakukeith/35545.html

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2004-06-15 07:34 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]tamerterra, 2005-11-22 09:40 pm UTC

[info]kadaria
2004-06-15 11:21 am UTC (link)
I just want to know why homosexual chars's lives must always revolve or begin around sex. It just irks me because I know that gay couples don't just have sex/make-out all of the time.
Or better yet, when a person discovers their gayness through sex. I mean really, the authors need to go do a little more research. As Prime's last womens studies textbook quoted: "Yes, there are such things as homosexual celebits (spelling? The reference was to nuns). You don't need to have sex to know that you are heterosexual and you don't need to have sex to know that you are homosexual. You just know."
I guess it just fits in with the stereotypes and such.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]limyaael
2004-06-15 07:35 pm UTC (link)
Yeah, that's something I noticed, too. Vanyel and Tylendel's grand love in the Lackey books seems to be expressed mostly by sex, and his reincarnated lover experiences an instant sexual attraction to Vanyel. Perhaps fits in with the idea that all gay men are promiscuous.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]sythyry
2004-06-15 12:12 pm UTC (link)
Thanks! That was well worth reading.

I've tried to pay attention to this. My characters do, at times, angst about cross-species romance (which is acceptable for some social classes but not others), but don't worry that much the sexes of their lovers as anything more than a personal preference, not much different from fur color or height or what have you.

(Reply to this)


[info]cygna_hime
2004-06-15 03:42 pm UTC (link)
...This is the reason I dislike modern fantasy so much. It's All About the Issues, and homosexuality is an Issue with a capital I that gets played up way, waaaaaay too much. For once, I'd like to see a story in which none of the characters has a love interest. Just once. Or maybe even a story in which it's honestly not an issue who you may happen to be carrying on with.

Oh, and why are the gay or lesbian characters almost always very good-looking? And young? Is this the kind of message writers are trying to put across, that it's OK to be homosexual if you're young and pretty, but once you're older and know better you'll mend your evil ways? To Hell with that. I would like to see more stories about older couples--straight as well as gay--and couples where neither person is stunningly beautiful. It does happen, honest! What, we won't accept it if the characters aren't pretty enough? Welcome to the shallow end of the pool. See you as much later as possible.

Grr. That really bothers me. Which is why my heroine is not going to have any kind of love interest. Because it's not all about the sex.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]limyaael
2004-06-15 07:38 pm UTC (link)
I enjoy adult heroes; at this point, I only read fantasies with teenage main characters if they're by authors I know and trust, or if I'm going through one of the rare periods where I would like to expand my reading list and try a few books. Older couples make me smile.

*preaching about Martin again* Since Martin writes on an epic scale- and real epic, not endless descriptions of trees like RJ- he includes a lot of different kinds of relationships. The relationship in the first book between Eddard Stark and his wife Catelyn is between two mature adults who really do love each other, and that came from an arranged marriage. Later there are also teenage love affairs, marriages between people of wildly different ages, a passionate gay love affair, casual sex, sex out of duty, and everything in between.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) - [info]selahstar, 2004-06-16 08:50 am UTC

[info]pedantic_celia
2004-06-15 04:53 pm UTC (link)
It's something that's been bothering me lately in the Harry Potter fandom - people have seen the film, and are declaring the "canon" love of Sirius and Remus, and the fact that lycanthropy is a metaphor for homosexuality. I've ranted about this in my journal, but quite apart from the fact that real homosexuals tend not to turn into killing machines every full moon, the idea that writing whose main message is one of confronting prejudice has to resort to a veil of metaphor to avoid exposing people to the dread Gay makes me ill. Yeah, really progressive, having some vague allusion that only about 20% of your readers will bother to get (and 19% of those because they were really, really looking for it). Yeah, that'll really get the message of fighting for justice across there. Not that I think this is what JKR was attempting - I hope not, anyway. If she wanted to reference the homosexual struggle, she can damn well put gay characters in the books. Be all brave, like Harry.

Anyway, may I friend you? I ask because some of your rants are very informative, and since I have an idea for a fantasy novel I need all the help I can get. Oddly enough, my idea has a main character who prefers her own gender (no lesbians in a world without Lesbos), not that I intend it to be a great angsty focus. There will probably be some bother, but not from sex. Except the sex she may have with the daughter of the enemy, which is a different sort of angst altogether. It's rather a rough set of plot points right now, though.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]limyaael
2004-06-15 07:40 pm UTC (link)
The "OMGtheirloveissocanon" people were part of what I was thinking about when I wrote the rant, but I kept it off the screen since this was about original fantasy, and not fanfic. I know what you mean, though. It's one thing to talk about signs of sexual attraction in the books and find the relationship plausible; it's another thing to insist that Rowling is sending some sort of coded message. To be honest, I don't think she would be that subtle. The racism issue is handled pretty heavily, after all.

And sure, you can friend me. *friends back* I'd be happy if I could help breed a good fantasy novel.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]pedantic_celia, 2004-06-15 07:59 pm UTC

[info]kiena_tesedale
2004-06-15 06:28 pm UTC (link)
Hi! Like the above poster, I'd like to friend you, if you don't mind. I just read back through some of your rants, and found them very interesting.

And this particular rant touched on a lot of issues that really annoy me, so that was neat. :) I haven't read it in years (so some of my details might be off), but I remember really liking Tanya Huff's Quarters series because of the off-hand way she dealt with homosexuality. No one cared about it, and it didn't affect people's lives at all, aside from who they actually slept with.

And I noticed the Lynn Flewelling clothing thing, too, which rather disappointed me - I liked the series a lot, but got tired with some of her descriptions.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]limyaael
2004-06-15 07:41 pm UTC (link)
I don't mind at all. *friends you* Glad you find them interesting.

Tanya Huff is getting recommended at me right and left, so I may have to try her. *grin*

And I noticed the Lynn Flewelling clothing thing, too, which rather disappointed me - I liked the series a lot, but got tired with some of her descriptions.

I wound up skipping the clothing descriptions. Now it's something that I do as a matter of course, since I just find them so boring, but at the time I first read the books I tried to absorb every detail. It got to be too much to bear, though.

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[info]lostangelssong
2004-06-15 07:09 pm UTC (link)
That was really great. I enjoyed it muchly.

I friended you, btw. I'm from MD. I found your journal by way of [info]teh_kittykat

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[info]limyaael
2004-06-15 07:42 pm UTC (link)
Hi! I've friended you back. I've seen your posts around.

And glad you enjoyed it! I was anticipating a firestorm of wankery and protest that has yet to emerge when I posted it, so I'm kind of shocked and really pleased that people are taking it the other way. *grin*

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]amurderofcrows
2004-06-17 11:47 pm UTC (link)
I have to disagree somewhat on th epoint of #1 -- a lot of fans ENJOY the hints/subtext rather then two characters LEAPING out of the closet and proclaiming loudly while fondling each other, "GAY AND PROUD!"

Of course, most of these fans are the type I despise, who write bad slashfic on the flimsiest of notions. Most. Not all, but most. I don't mind subtext (and I admit to having a really, really, wrong sexual/love vibe between my main character, Sen'ei and the main antagonist, despite Sen'ei being firmly straight) but... you know, depends on who has the book in their hands.

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[info]kannaophelia
2004-06-21 08:36 pm UTC (link)
have to disagree somewhat on th epoint of #1 -- a lot of fans ENJOY the hints/subtext rather then two characters LEAPING out of the closet and proclaiming loudly while fondling each other, "GAY AND PROUD!"

~shrug~ Yeah, but I'd be happier if rather than having canon het couples mashing face and having sex and getting married,canon heterosexuality was left as subtext so that het fen can have fun guessing at which characters are straight instead of it all being open.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


(Anonymous)
2004-06-17 11:52 pm UTC (link)
I'm with you all the way about the stupidity of 3), but in fairness to the Fifth Millennium books, Meghan's case is, I think, a little bit more nuanced. It is still somewhat dodgy, but:

1) Meghan's culture, although not as enthusiastically pansexual as Sh'kaira's, seems to regard bisexuality as, if not the norm, an equal option with hetero- and homo-sexuality.

2)In _The Cage_ and _Shadow's Son_ (books taking place further on in the continuity than _Sabre_and_Shadow_), Meghan has sex with men. She marries Shyll, who's loved her from a distance since years before, and on campaign she once spends a night with Chevenga the Yeoli we're-sensitive-new-age-democrats-so-I'm-not-a-king, who is something like Napoleon-with-all-the-charisma-and-no-ego-trip, himself a survivor of rape, and required by his people's tradition to know his army, in the biblical sense.

Considering that she's not inclined to sleep round as is Sh'kaira (whose only rules seem to be no non-humans, "nobody under sixteen, since I was sixteen myself," and "I don't rape people any more, cos Meghan would be upset"), Meghan seems to be less a lesbian per se than an "I sleep with the people I love whom I trust enough not to hurt me, and the first one I met was a woman."

(Reply to this)


[info]chiyo_no_saru
2004-10-04 07:59 pm UTC (link)
Just found this rant, so I'm afraid that I'm responding to it a little bit late, but oh well. I wanted your opinion on something. A lot of my characters are, indeed, gay or bisexual - not because I'm trying to preach or whatnot, just because I'm trying to show that this world simply doesn't care as much. The primary religion of Mainland (extremely creative name, I know) is really the only one that speaks out against it, and even then they allow bonding and marriage and all that - they just don't think it's quite natural or holy, as the two figureheads of their church are the Lord and Lady, and their greatest feast day is their 'marriage' day.

However, I'm afraid that it's going to come off like some rabid raving slash fangirl who can't write straight characters because she's desperate to see pretty boys boinking under the bedcovers. I know, obviously, you don't haven my story in front of you, but what do you think? It's not as if their homosexuality is all they are, the same way that straight characters are purely 'heterosexual' (in characterization and all). Most of them just happen to be gay because, well, the occurence of it is higher in that world and it's far more accepted. (Hell, the King doesn't have a wife, he has a husband. A politically advantageous husband who was promised to him, even.)

I'd really like to hear what your opinion is.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]limyaael
2004-10-04 08:28 pm UTC (link)
I think that it depends entirely on how you portray them. For example:

-Are there also lesbian characters in the story? One thing a lot of "slash-like stories" do is exclude lesbian characters altogether, and set all the straight women lusting hopelessly after the gay men.

-How pretty and slender and long-haired are the male characters? If they're all described like anime characters or prettified elves, it's a bad sign.

-If they have characteristics like caring only about clothes, wanting to dress up as women, etc., it becomes harder to keep them away from stereotypes.

-They should argue occasionally, and argue like themselves, not like a stereotypical slash couple who can make everything up with a few kisses and massages.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]chiyo_no_saru, 2004-10-04 08:34 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2004-10-04 09:14 pm UTC

[info]sythyry
2004-10-05 11:47 am UTC (link)
*muses* The homosexual romance in 'A Marriage of Insects' is tolerated at first. Then everyone gives the couple a great deal of grief, perhaps because one of them turned out to be the source of everyone else's unhappiness, and the other seems intent on sticking with her. Same-sex relationships are unremarkable, as long as they're within the same species.

When Casamint's same-sex lover leaves him for an otter-girl, that's scandal.

(Reply to this)


[info]wikdsushi
2005-08-14 06:46 pm UTC (link)
YES! THANK YOU!

I've just discovered your backlog of fantasy rants, and have bounced between writing the second book in the trilogy I'm working on, and reading your thoughts, for the last two hours. This one hits especially close to home, because the protagonist of my trilogy is gay, his first love is bi (and so deep in the closet it hurts), and the main's homosexuality is a major part of the plot, especially in the second book. (I don't give my characters any particular preference unless it's important to the plot. If it's not, either it doesn't come up, or I let relationships important to the plot take precedence.)

Thank you so much for writing this. I've had a few qualms about trying to sell books that include love stories between men--not (entirely) because I'm not sure how far I can go in the sex before people start screaming I just want to write erotica, but because I'm not sure how my readers will react to the particular characterisations I've given my boys. To know that there are people outside my little circle of friends who understand and accept that Queer Eye For The Straight Guy is not the end-all and be-all of gay men helps immensely. (Can't stand the show, btw. I don't care if they really act like that; the Fab Five are one big stereotype, and it hurts to watch.)

As for gay message fantasy, sing it. I want to see people, not parables. And there's a BIG difference between saying, "You need to be strong, Billy," and watching a man either fight back or carry on with dignity throughout torrents of abuse. Shutting up about the message and just showing someone getting on with his or her life goes further than preaching anyway.

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[info]minimorr
2005-09-27 05:13 am UTC (link)
A little late, but... THANK YOU!!!

This needed to be said, I'm so damn tired of 1) nothing except heterosexual fantasy and 2) whenever there are gay characters around, they're always portrayed as Teh Evol!!!111one that wants to take the man away from his true love the heroine and blahblahblah.

I'm definitely bookmarking this and I'll be coming back for more! :)

(Reply to this)

Couldn't agree more
[info]woodstockdc
2005-11-14 06:39 pm UTC (link)
I followed a link from the NaNoWriMo fantasy forum to this rant and I'm glad I did. I haven't read much fantasy but despite this I'm writing a fantasy novel this year. Your analysis of how glbt characters are treated could, in many respects, be applied even to rooted-in-present-reality general fiction: make them actual characters not cardboard cutouts of people.

I'll keep these things in mind as my plot and story move along and the characters develop but, I have to say, I'm happy that so far I haven't fallen into any of the traps you've pointed out.

Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts on this.

(Reply to this)

Be careful on #3
[info]karenrei
2006-01-27 11:06 pm UTC (link)
Before I start, let me add that I have been in a same-sex relationship for six years, so I'm not approaching this as an outsider.

Be careful with #3. While *most* lesbians I know haven't been raped, the number is disproportionate with the general female population, and in several cases there is this irrational hatred of men (even a conflicted hatred - I'll never forget watching one woman switch back and forth when watching a John Edwards speech talking about how attractive she found him and then how much she hates all men and finds them unattractive).

It doesn't just apply to sexuality either. There's actually standards in the guidelines for treating transsexuals, especially female to male transsexuals, is to be on the lookout for those who are rape victims because they can generally be better dealt with through counselling than through transition. Again, while they're not the majority, they're disproportionately represented.

Trauma in general can cause long-term mental changes. You don't just recover from PTSD. Rape causes trauma in particular involving gender and sexual relations (as well as things like trust). Most rape victims (even from particularly violent rapes) don't end up wanting to become lesbians or men; however, some do end up hating men or their own bodies enough, and it's strongly enough ingrained in them, that it happens.

It's something that most in the community would rather not confront because it gives ammo to the right wing, but it's the truth. Just like many in the community don't want to confront the fact that children of gay people are more likely to be gay or bi (they're still most likely to be heterosexual, and they are usually as socially well-adjusted or more in comparison to their peers). Now, it is most likely simply an issue of not remaining closetted about their feelings, but as a community we don't like to discuss these sorts of things because we know that they'll be used as talking points against us by the right wing.

(Reply to this)


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