Limyaael ([info]limyaael) wrote,
@ 2004-07-08 19:36:00
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Current mood: bouncy
Entry tags:fantasy rants: summer 2004, rants on angst

Angst vs. tragedy
Inspired by a comment [info]avrelia made in the last post (thanks, [info]avrelia!) I have very strict definitions of angst and tragedy, enough so that I can usually know within a few chapters whether I’ll enjoy a “sad” book or not, but I thought it might be nice to articulate them.

(Just to make it clear, I love tragic fantasy, and think angst needs to be drop-kicked off a tall building).



1) External conflicts vs. internal conflicts. Angst has the first, tragedy has the latter. (For the rest of this list, you can apply that rule). Or, in other words, an angsty plot development, especially an angsty romance, is one motivated mostly or solely by contrived, stupid, boring, overused, external conflicts, while the internal ones of a tragic plot are strong, moving, fresh twists on a tragic theme.

I’ll start with romance, since that will be the easiest example to let you see just what I’m talking about. The hero and heroine are together and in love. She’s walking up to his apartment when she sees him kiss a woman he regards as a sister. She immediately storms up, accuses him of cheating on her, rants and raves so strongly he can’t get a word in edgewise, and then runs away in tears…usually straight into the bad guy’s clutches. Or she says nothing about it, resents him for committing a “crime” he has no idea he’s committed, and lashes out at random moments. Yet usually if the hero asks her what’s going on, she refuses to tell him anything.

What is this woman, twelve?

This is a stupid conflict. It’s motivated not by the heroine’s insecurity—usually until that point in the story she seems to trust the hero completely, and he’s given her no reason to distrust him—but by a highly contrived outside event. The author is overdosing on her RDA of coincidence. It’s also a conflict that could be solved by two minutes of talking (see Point 3), and the author knows that, which is why the two minutes of talking can never, ever happen.

Most Big Misunderstandings are of this kind, and it’s the reason angsty romances belong in bad fanfic, not fantasy. Fantasy is allowed to get away with being glorious and passionate and grand and, well, epic in a way that the other genres aren’t. Why do you want to waste that by introducing some stupid little buzzing thing?

Tragedy, on the other hand, is motivated by the characters’ internal conflicts. A heroine who is so insecure that she drives the hero away, for instance, is a participant in a tragic romance—along with the hero being proud enough to not come crawling back because he “understands,” and strong enough to tell her point-blank that she’s delusional. Two characters who are in love and on the opposite sides of a war, though an overused conflict, is one that can still be made fresh (as long as you don’t have them dying in each other’s arms, which tilts it towards pathos). Their principles are their principles, in that case, not something the author forced on them. They’re perfectly capable of being intelligent, rational people and still tragically incapable of coming to an agreement.

Let your characters suffer through some fault of their own. Wanting to keep the status quo at “no fault of their own” is one reason that so many things wind up angsty.

2) Character passivity vs. self-will. This is somewhat related to point 1, but even a story with no contrived external conflicts can still become angsty if the author doesn’t take care to make her protagonists strong enough. And no, by strong I don’t mean a woman swinging a broadsword and declaring that she can take care of herself. (Most of the time, with that one, you only need to wait; within a hundred pages at the most, the woman declaring she can take care of herself will need to be rescued by some man). By strong I mean characters who are proactive, not only reactive, and who occasionally take charge of the story instead of serving only plot twists.

Once again, the author is perfectly capable of making her characters suffer, since that’s part of the definition of angst. The problem is that she can’t stand for them to suffer because they do stuff. So the characters stand around and look pretty, and problems are thrown at them.

And under this, I include poorly-done problems that are intrinsic to the characters. Number One, and most unfortunate victim, is when the author attempts to take an Issue and tack it on to her character. This character is no longer Mary Jo Goldeneyes. She is Mary Jo Goldeneyes, Abuse Victim. Or Mary Jo Goldeneyes, Cutter. Or Mary Jo Goldeneyes, Bulimic. Or Mary Jo Goldeneyes, Prostitute.

You may not think that last one fits in with the rest, but I assure you it does. Show me one fantasy novel character who actually became a prostitute through her own mistakes or through economic and social forces, and I will show you a diamond in a field of coal. Most of the time, she’s forced into it by her family or a former lover or the prejudice of others, oh the angst, and she cries silent tears in the night, oh the doom, and she dreams helplessly of the day that her one true love will come to take her away….

Ugh. Excuse me. My stomach just rebelled.

This keeps the character a passive toy of fate, a pure and innocent victim prostrate before the author and the Issue. It ignores certain real life problems, such as that abuse victims often become abusers in the future, or that cutters are not doing it to be artistic but to let pain out, or that bulimia has desperately bad health consequences. Or that prostitutes historically were not clean almost-virgins with hearts of gold; they were often diseased, the mothers of unwanted children, alcohol or opium addicts, and dead before their time.

“But this isn’t meant to be realistic,” the angsty author crouching defensively over her Issue may say. “This is meant to be fantasy.”

You want tragedy? You want the character to truly suffer things that will sear your reader’s heart, instead of just make her cry fake tears that are forgotten in a few hours? Then don’t cut the human heart out from this (or the elven or the gryphon or the werewolf heart, for that matter). Your character cannot be someone who takes on only the romantic aspects of an Issue. Then she remains an angst-magnet, and true tragedy doesn’t come within a mile of her. Let her suffer things that can’t be washed away. Let the Issue change her into someone who doesn’t do very nice things because of it. I find it hard to imagine that a character fighting desperately to protect the secret of her cutting would cry only crystal tears and bleed only in artistic patterns and never say anything mean or hurtful to another person who came too close to discovering the secret. I find it even harder to imagine that a child whose childhood was completely screwed up by abuse would grow up into a smiling, shining paragon of virtue, who relates to other people without effort.

Part of tragedy is that it’s irrevocable, that even though sweet things might happen in its wake, the sense of an even sweeter ‘what might have been’ is always there. If it can be washed away so thoroughly that you have a character who sparkles like she’s new when it’s done, if her only scars are the attractive kind, if she only suffered wrong and never did any, you have angst.

3) The Idiot Plot vs. the character-driven plot. You know the Idiot Plot. It’s the one that only functions because all the characters in it behave like idiots.

This happens the most with villains, but it happens to angsty heroes, too. When it would make the most sense to listen to what someone else is telling him, the angsty hero chooses not to listen. And not because of some legitimate issue, like distrust of the person telling him the relevant bit of information; it comes because of his “inner turmoil” or something like that. Do spare me.

When two characters could solve their problem in two minutes by talking, the author will engage in furious hand-waving to make sure they never talk until the end of the book. The bad guy jumps in, the heroine runs away in one of those typical “I can take care of myself!” snits, aliens attack, whatever. Sometimes the characters never do talk at all, and angst is changed to sap, which is to joy as angst is to true tragedy.

When the main mystery to be solved depends on a clue that the reader can see from a mile away, the heroes will not see it, and not see it, and not see it. All their financial problems could be solved by finding the key that opens Queen Astalda’s diamond mine, for example, but even though the reader knows perfectly well that the key is the mysterious amulet the heroine’s dead mother gave her, no one else does. Why? Because then the author wouldn’t have the excuse for three hundred pages of hand-wringing and “We are so poor! Wah! Wah! Wah!” choruses.

The character-driven plot, on the other hand, has characters working at cross-purposes because it makes sense for them to do so. They may want completely incompatible things. They may have different sets of principles (the internal conflict thing again). Their commitment to each other may matter less than their goals. You may have a character who just cares more about power or vengeance or money or whatever than anyone else. This is the stuff of tragedy, once again, the heady sense of “Damn, if only…” rather than “If only the author would stop making random things happen.

4) Sketchiness vs. weight. Angst is usually very quick, whether it’s in a fanfic or a professional piece of fiction. The author barely sets up the situation before flinging long sob stories at the reader. Or there are lots of vague hints, but the reader isn’t given a good enough reason to care about the situation and the protagonists before the wailing starts. This is partly because a lot of angsty stories make good use of “used furniture,” shopworn situations that supposedly don’t need explaining because the reader has seen them a thousand million times before.

However, that very lack of explanation is what turns the story into Diet Coke. I don’t care about a young girl who gets her teddy bear cut up unless you tell me what makes her different, and special, and just how much the teddy bear meant to her, and how its loss will affect her life. (Though in that case, it should be more than a teddy bear; see point 5). You have to make me see Lellsy Jones bawling beside her teddy bear, and sniffling, and wiping her nose, and plotting evil vengeance with meat hooks. If I just see a young girl—probably one who doesn’t even get red eyes when she weeps, and doesn’t “bawl,” but “sheds a single translucent tear”—I’m not going to feel any compassion at all. Yes, I might cry, if the writing is done well enough. The problem is that it doesn’t end there. You haven’t infected your reader with a sense of tragedy if you’ve made her cry. Any sappy movie can do that. Disney movies can do that. To win, you have to make your reader start wincing and feeling for that particular unique person, not just any young girl with her teddy bear in shreds.

This is Yet Another Good Reason (do you really need more by now?) not to begin your story with a scene of angst. We don’t know enough about this person yet. We’re not invested in her or her circumstances. Any tears we cry are false, based on pity for the situation, not the person. Or the reader is tearing up because of personal issues. I know I tend to get upset when beloved objects are destroyed, but I’m thinking more of how I would feel if someone went after one of my books, not the teddy bear. Keep the reader’s attention on the story.

Tragedies have weight, strength, inevitability. There comes a point in a truly tragic story where you know the characters can’t do any more. They’re locked into their desperate courses, and can’t change. That’s what makes the few purebred tragic fantasies, like Kay’s The Lions of Al-Rassan, or fantasies with tragic scenes in them, like The Lord of the Rings, so great. There is no solving Kay’s deep religious conflicts with a wave of the hand, and they turn good men against each other, men who would pay any price not to be turned—except giving up their faith. Tolkien’s Elves leave and fade and die, their Rings losing power when the One Ring is destroyed, and there is no miracle cure for that in the end. By the time we get to those parts, though, we have deep investment in the characters and worlds, and many scenes have also chipped away all the possible options one by one. Good tragedy plays hope like a harp, stretching out the notes until the moment when there are just no new songs left.

5) Misplaced priorities vs. good priorities. This is a problem almost unique to angsty fantasy, but it can show up in other genres as well. Fantasy has all these grand concerns: saving the world, saving a soul, getting the right ruler on the throne, rescuing a dying race, and so on. Yet angst-authors continuously sabotage these grand goals with smaller ones, making what’s happening in a character’s love life or the shredded teddy bear more important than the world.

Now, it’s not necessary to make these into misplaced priorities. If you have a more personally-focused fantasy, or a fantasy where the world isn’t in danger, then the protagonist’s love-life may indeed be the most important concern. But usually the author presents a Great Wrong to be righted up-front. It’s a cliché of fantasy that the characters will start fleeing from the bad guy in the first three chapters, but it’s a cliché because it endures. It can still be powerful in the right hands.

So you have a scene in which the heroine is told that she is the last descendant of a line with a hereditary responsibility to chain the Werewolf of Gleledon up in his cave again. She nods solemnly, ponders the awesome weight of that charge, and accepts it.

Then, two chapters later, she’s convinced that the chauvinist guard insulting her is the worst pain in her life. More, the author expects the reader to feel the same way.

If you want to avoid angst, it is absolutely imperative that you develop the gift of showing your readers that the character’s perceptions are not identical with the world around her. She may feel that the chauvinist guard is the worst pain in her life, and two chapters later she may be consumed with dread at the thought of the teenage boy she likes noticing her. But the author should not force the reader, who will probably be thinking more about the Werewolf of Gleledon, to agree.

Push the angst too far, and it can become madly and unintentionally hilarious. The character skips like a pebble on shallow water from concern to concern, never really sinking into any of them. She comes off like an airhead because the author has decided that she must always be angsting about something. And when the Werewolf of Gleledon comes along, her defeat of it is entirely unearned. She didn’t spend the chapters of her quest learning skills to defeat it, or shedding her fears and growing courage, or learning something about herself that would enable her to look into the werewolf’s eyes and accept the beast in her. She just worried, and whined, and she got rewarded anyway.

That’s the second problem with misplaced priorities: the characters get given prizes for their stupid and shallow concerns. The girl who is daydreaming about the boy she loves is allowed to daydream in peace, even though if she’s doing it on sentry duty I would rather expect the watching bad guys to take advantage of it. Their worry is always instantly understood, accepted, and coddled by the people around them, and, worse, by the author.

Tragedy should be partly the character’s fault, as always, and if she becomes more concerned with the man “denying her independence” than with the Werewolf of Gleledon, I would expect the Werewolf to rip her heart out when she gets there. Remember Point 4: tragedy has weight. Niggling little concerns that don’t connect to each other make up the angst of everyday life, not tragedy.



Well, that was a long one. I hate angst so much, though (one reason I prefer to read humorous fanfic if I’m going to read fanfic; the amount of bad angst in fanfic is mind-blowing).




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[info]sir_hellsing
2004-07-08 05:07 pm UTC (link)
Excellent definitions to not confuse both. Your rants are enjoyable as usual.

As for me, I like Angst when it's well written. I love all genres when they are well written. The problem is, Angst in hands of bad writers turn boring and stupid (like humor in bad hands and all the rest, except Angst is so in now that suffers more than the rest).

Some people are passive and overwhelmed by external problems in real life. I don't agree that angst is always sketchy, those must be bad written pieces.

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[info]limyaael
2004-07-08 05:15 pm UTC (link)
For me, most well-written fanfics that include angst make it a minor element of the story (just as a well-written humor story will not just be a bunch of capitalized words and statements in netspeak). There, sadness and not worry is the focal point of the story.

Some people are passive and overwhelmed by external problems in real life.

True. The problem is that these people usually don't make very good fantasy characters. Characters in slice-of-life novels or mainstream novels, yes, even some romances. In fantasies, no.

I don't agree that angst is always sketchy, those must be bad written pieces.

I'm trying to remember a fantasy novel I've read that started with an angsty inner monologue scene, or somebody watching his family get killed, and still worked for me. I can't recall one. I think that throwing that much angst at the reader in the beginning, without taking time to establish why they should care about these people, is a symptom of poor writing.

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[info]sir_hellsing
2004-07-08 05:25 pm UTC (link)
For me, most well-written fanfics that include angst make it a minor element of the story

Agreed, unless is a drabble or short ficlet that you don't have space to include all.

I think that throwing that much angst at the reader in the beginning, without taking time to establish why they should care about these people, is a symptom of poor writing.

Ah, I wasn't talking just in Fantasy, but in general as a genre. I think it works better for comics or visual mediums.

I don't think either that Tragedy and Angst are in pure state. For example (going for your definitions), in Hellsing (horror/action japanese comic) several characters suffered from external problems (Angst) however they didn't stay passive over the overwhelming situations: For instance: Seras Victoria beheld the murder of her parents as a child and instead of cower and cry, in a shocking rage, came out her hiding, picked up a fork and stabbed in the eye (ick) of one of the assassins.

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[info]limyaael
2004-07-09 06:12 am UTC (link)
I tend to avoid most drabbles and ficlets because so much of them are the same (at least in the fandoms I usually read, HP and LOTR). They're just angst-statements that could belong to any person in the world, not usually a canon character.

I usually talk strictly about fantasy, and given that most fantasy novels are pretty long (series, even), I don't think it works well to heap on the angst at the beginning. It's a cheap way of trying to hook the reader in to care about the character. If I'm really going to be invested in her across all those pages, though, I have to see that she's a person worth doing that for, not just an angst-bunny

The character's response to the external conflict is what matters. If Seras did that, good for Seras. If she had just collapsed in a corner and softly wept and moaned, or if she was a strong and unscarred young woman and the author just dropped an external conflict on her from the air, I would think it was angst.

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[info]sir_hellsing
2004-07-09 10:44 am UTC (link)
Yes, I figured out you mean fantasy later but in your post you didn't clear up since the beginning.

I do agree in your reasoning, it's cheap to make you like the character since the beginning. If I were to include that, I would put it fleeting at the middle and the end.

If Seras did that, good for Seras. If she had just collapsed in a corner and softly wept and moaned, or if she was a strong and unscarred young woman and the author just dropped an external conflict on her from the air, I would think it was angst.

Now I get your point. Seras (and at times Integral, for God's sake who is probably one of the strongest willful women in any medium I have saw) is reduced to a pathetic shadow who angsts and dies of a broken heart in fanfiction. God, it's painful >>.<<

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OMGWTF?!
[info]otakukeith
2004-07-12 03:16 pm UTC (link)
*Integra* dies of a broken heart? The *hell*? The woman keeps Dracula on a leash! Even having her throat slashed didn't kill her!

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Re: OMGWTF?!
[info]sir_hellsing
2004-07-12 03:38 pm UTC (link)
No, Integral writes angst poetry about how much she loves *insert pairing here*. Seras dies of a broken heart/suicide thoughts because Alucard doesn't love her back *eye roll* Like Seras is interest in Alucard. Look at my icon *smirk* Canon loves me <3

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Re: OMGWTF?!
[info]safrialailo
2007-06-10 09:58 pm UTC (link)
Oh dear god, I want to set alucard on the people who wrote that and let him EAT them.

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[info]erythros
2004-07-08 06:04 pm UTC (link)
The author is overdosing on her RDA of coincidence.

*cracking. UP.*

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[info]limyaael
2004-07-09 06:13 am UTC (link)
*grins* Thank you. I rather like that line myself.

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Excellent.
[info]subsidaryforge
2004-07-08 06:05 pm UTC (link)
This is an area I've had trouble with -- although I've gotten better through practice, practice, and practice. This is the most coherent, thoughtful, and thus thought-provoking distinction I've seen.

My main problems are two fold -- throwing lots and lots of pain at the characters and passivity. The latter tends to be one of the Issues the characters have to get over, I guess.

What I have gotten better at is making the characters responsible entities in themselves. That if they're passive and reactive, it comes back to bite them. And if a character is really infuriatingly passive, I try to take steps to explore their passivity and work beyond it (while toeing the line between development and Sudden Convenient Epiphone the best I can). And since I tend to work with essentially minor characters thrust into the spotlight, this passivity is my major problem. If they don't get over it, I get stuck. I can't stand deus ex machinas and it's a lame ending when someone else saves the day and the main character feels incompetent over and over again. And even if my stories do tend to be about robots ...

Bah.

I just need to be more proactive in my writing!

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Re: Excellent.
[info]limyaael
2004-07-09 06:14 am UTC (link)
Wow. Thank you for the compliment. I'm glad if it helped.

I used to have the same problem with character passivity (especially in the first two series I wrote, where bad things just happened to my heroes, and they stood there and took it). I think the key for me was to get a sense of what the character was like before the story began, which character profiles have helped me do lately. That way, I knew how this person would react to those events, and he became less of a dartboard for me to throw traumatic events at.

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[info]kyuuketsukirui
2004-07-08 06:10 pm UTC (link)
Hmm, that's not the definition of angst I've usually come across. Angst is internal, where drama is external. However, things can be thrown at the character to make them angst more (usually things like rape, torture, infidelity, etc.) but that is not the be all and end all of angst. That is badly done angst, over the top angst. The sort where just as your character seems to be getting happy, you throw something else at them to make them angst some more. But it doesn't have to be that way.

I like reading and writing angst that is well done and subdued. For example, I'm writing in an RPG in which our characters got together a year ago after having been best friends for over a decade. During the year we've been writing them, they've been happy for the most part, but there are just normal relationship problems that cause angst. One of the guys left his wife for the other and is dealing for the first time with being in a homosexual relationship (as opposed to just occasionally shagging guys). They deal with jealousy and with one partner wanting more of a Dom/sub relationship than the other thinks he can give. When we're writing their backstory there's angst because one of them is in love with the other and trying to convince himself he's not.

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[info]limyaael
2004-07-09 06:17 am UTC (link)
One reason I can usually tell the difference between angst and tragedy is that sense of irrevocability that I mentioned. The author who writes tragedy, or events that scar the characters forever, is committed to not having everything turn out okay. It might not mean the character's death or the loss of his one true love, but it's going to mean something big.

With angst, the problem is going to be resolved, completely and neatly and tidily, before the end of the book. The characters have that conversation which they could have had 500 pages earlier, and of course understand each other completely. The bad guy is utterly defeated. The worry that the one true crush might not crush back is groundless, and in the end the couple lives happily ever after in infatuation.

In an RPG, it might be different, I suppose. But I don't game for good reasons: because aspects of it like that are precisely what would drive me nuts. I have the most experience with fiction, so those are the examples I use.

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[info]kyuuketsukirui
2004-07-09 02:06 pm UTC (link)
I would say the same thing of fic, too, though. Angst doesn't have to be long and drawn out and repetitive. To me that's just examples of it being badly done.

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And here Merka indulges herself horribly in blathering about her own work, forgive her
[info]youraugustine
2004-07-08 07:01 pm UTC (link)
I like taking these things and twisting them.

1) The hero and heroine are together and in love. She’s walking up to his apartment when she sees him kiss a woman he regards as a sister [etc]

With Puck and Meri, I took that one and twisted it . . . . the scenario is exactly that, except she does the sensible thing and confronts him.

And finds out, no, not sister. Ex-girlfriend. And yes, he did sleep with her. And, by the way, what the hell is your problem? Ohhh, hah. Sorry, kid, get over it.

Because it's more fun (and painful) that way.

2) Show me one fantasy novel character who actually became a prostitute through her own mistakes or through economic and social forces

Granted, he may be disqualified for having a Y chromasome and being in urban fantasy, but Deke becomes a teen-prostitute to pay for a drug habit after running away from fostercare. While fostercare wasn't exactly a bed of roses, it wasn't hell, either, and no one stuck the needles in his arm - he did that all by himself.

I find it even harder to imagine that a child whose childhood was completely screwed up by abuse would grow up into a smiling, shining paragon of virtue, who relates to other people without effort.

D'av is my childabuse survivor - and he's bitter, angry, violent when even slightly threatened, cruel, misogynistic, cynical and has exactly one person (at outset of story) he gives a flying rat's ass about . . .and that can hardly be described as happyfluffylove.

3) has characters working at cross-purposes because it makes sense for them to do so

Mmm, [info]zaubercorp. ::pets it:: Break my heart.

4) [info]zaubercorp, again. Also what I'm trying to do in [info]merkas_folly, however well I may be succeeding.

5) even though if she’s doing it on sentry duty I would rather expect the watching bad guys to take advantage of it.

^,..,^

Want REAL guilt? Have someone Important get killed exactly for that.

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[info]traffic_cone
2004-07-10 03:36 am UTC (link)
Good tragedy plays hope like a harp, stretching out the notes until the moment when there are just no new songs left.

And no buzzing when the author puts her hand across the strings to damp the sound in the last few pages. ;)

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[info]limyaael
2004-07-10 07:24 am UTC (link)
*grin* True. If Tolkien had ended LOTR by having Frodo come sailing back over the sea, healthy and whole, I would have thrown the book at the wall.

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[info]dawnkiller
2004-07-10 02:30 pm UTC (link)
Show me one fantasy novel character who actually became a prostitute through her own mistakes or through economic and social forces, and I will show you a diamond in a field of coal. Most of the time, she’s forced into it by her family or a former lover or the prejudice of others, oh the angst, and she cries silent tears in the night, oh the doom, and she dreams helplessly of the day that her one true love will come to take her away….

LOL! Okay, maybe you WILL like Felisin, then. Fifteen-year-old noblebrat gets kicked into a hard labor camp, and ends up becoming the local equivalent of a crackwhore (ostensibly in order to survive) -- all within the first hundred pages. The rest of the book deals with the psychological consequences. She's not what I'd call likable, but her development IS logical . . . and the character's just damn lucky that at least one of her traveling companions still looks at her as a girl rather than a whore, or else she'd have (rightfully) ended up dead.

Anyway.

#2) Y'know, your example of the "independant" female being saved by the first handy male made me think that I'd really like to see a story where the savior is another woman. Preferrably one close to the girl's own age. I'd think that would actually help character development more than the Love Interest showing up, especially if the point of the danger was to show the girl (and audience) just how naive the girl is. This way not only does the subject of "You've got a long way to go" remain unfettered from an insipid romance plot, but it also underlines what the young female could be with training. She'd still be passive during the incident, but seeing someone so like her in age and gender could potentially spur her into becoming less so. (Also, I'm all for screwing traditional gender-roles in fantasy. :)

#5) The misplaced-priorities you listed actually has great potential for true tragedy if the author acknowledges them as misplaced. I think the real failing of writers who misallot their character's priorities is that they don't take advantage of what doing so could offer. Your werewolf example was good -- for instance, it'd be fun to see a story where the "chosen one" decides to coast on fate and natural talent and fritters away her time worrying about attracting the attention of her crush rather than training -- and in turn is horribly mauled on her first hunt. I'd think a missing limb would be worlds more effective than the obligatory (and usually totally irrelevant) bawling-out by the young hero's teachers. I'd love to see what would happen if, say, a loyal supporter of the old monarchy fights a bloody battle to oust the requisite usurper, only to find out the son of the king he loved so much is even worse. Good examples from GRRM (of course) include Davos questioning the company Stannis is keeping when Melisandre made her, uh, surprise delivery, or when Dany put too much trust in that priestess and ended up with a mindless husband and miscarried child. I love "Dear god, what have I done?" moments. :)

The problem is, most of the time (bad) authors never acknowledge when their characters have made a wrong choice. I'm okay with a character making the conscious decision that he'd rather save his lover and damn the world than lose her -- I'm less okay with he either 1) doesn't acknowledge that this is selfish, or 2) no one around him has a problem with this. Selfish characters can be good as long at the author doesn't expect us to applaud them for it.

Of course, I still long for a story where the whiny teenage heroine launches into her requisit "It's all my fault!" speech and one of the supporting characters, rather than comforting her, simply says "Yes, it is. Now shut the hell up and fix it yourself." That would make up for a lot. :)

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[info]avrelia
2004-07-10 07:52 pm UTC (link)
Thank you for the detailed explanation – it was both entertaining and thought-provoking. The angst as you describe it can have its place in the story – if it is a very small place. Stupid misunderstandings happen in life, and can happen in fiction – when they are not The Major Plot Point. So are all the external conflicts.
But tragedy is inevitable, and angst is produced by the author. Did I get it right? ;)
In fanfic I also often encounter the situation when authors just piles up the angst on the characters they hate to punish them. Makes me run away.

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[info]9bloodychalices
2006-01-10 01:33 am UTC (link)
Yes! Both the books I'm working on have a tragic element to them, but it doesn't show up until the end.

I didn't really think about it at first, but I realized as I started writing that I was following the classical definition:

1. Starts happy, ends sad
2. Existence of a tragic flaw in the main character, which is actually the reason for the sad ending

I think angst can work as characterization, but only if the author shows how it is a character trait and not just "Oh look at what a victim she is!" That is, show how the angst works against the character, rather than using it as a ploy to make the reader feel sorry for him/her. I think a good example of this use of angst is in the 5th Harry Potter book.

Heck, one could use "angst" as the tragic flaw in a tragedy, though it would take great skill to make it work: after all, who wants to read that much angst?

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[info]onyxflame
2006-02-25 09:31 pm UTC (link)
I don’t care about a young girl who gets her teddy bear cut up unless you tell me what makes her different, and special, and just how much the teddy bear meant to her, and how its loss will affect her life.

This reminds me of a story that proves how irrevocably humor is intertwined with Really Bad Shit (TM) happening.

My cousin used to have a teddy bear that she basically considered to be part of the family. Well, one day her stepfather, who was a pathetic abusive child molester, got pissed at her for some stupid reason or other and told her he was gonna blow up her teddy bear by putting nitroglycerin in its eyes.

She looked up at him, all frantic and sad, and said "You're not really gonna put nitro-Listerine in his eyes, are you?"

When it comes down to it, I think comedians probably have more than their fair share of tragedy. At a certain point, if you don't start laughing, you may never stop crying.

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