Limyaael ([info]limyaael) wrote,
@ 2004-07-27 23:39:00
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Current mood: bitchy
Entry tags:fantasy rants: summer 2004, subgenre rants

Bildungsroman rant
Quick definition of a bildungsroman, courtesy of dictionary.com: A novel whose principal subject is the moral, psychological, and intellectual development of a usually youthful main character.

So you have a teenaged protagonist, and you’re writing hell-bent for leather to make your fantasy the story of her (or him, as the case may be) growing up and finding herself. So how do you make this old-as-the-hills plotline shine?



1) Begin as close as possible to the point where your character is ready for a change. It’s necessary to introduce her and establish some background, of course. What has her life been like up to this point? What are her likes and dislikes? What is she rebelling against? (And of course you have to answer that question, because what is a teenage-protagonist fantasy story without the teenager rebelling against something?)

But you don’t need two hundred pages of this. It may be fascinating for you, and perhaps you have the skill to make it fascinating for your audience…but I doubt it. Even an author whose teenage protagonists I liked, Tad Williams, loses a lot of readers in The Dragonbone Chair by taking more than two hundred pages to get his awkward, innocent teenage boy, Simon, out of the damn castle. Once he does, many exciting and genuinely scary things happen, often right on top of each other, and Simon can really start changing, since the environment of the castle kept him static. But Williams is also interested in exploring the history of the castle, the Hayholt, and how Simon climbs around in its old buildings, and how Simon flirts with the scullery maids, and a good chunk of the world’s history, and Simon’s “apprenticeship” with the resident castle scholar. It rambles, and rambles, and rambles. It’s good for the world-building aspect, and for things that come into play in the third book of the trilogy, but it’s hard on the story’s bildungsroman aspect.

Any character-driven story should begin as close as possible to the character’s change of heart, or the events that inspire it. That’s common advice, and a lot of people do manage it with adult protagonists. Writers of adolescent-centered fantasy, however, often seem to assume that what their readers really want to read about is how the adolescent gets teased and bullied, or what she has for breakfast every morning, or the duets she sings with Mr. Bluebird. No, most readers don’t. We want to see how this shy/awkward/innocent/clumsy/picked-on person is going to become brave/self-confident/wise/graceful/badass. That should receive more space in your story than the flashbacks. If there is information about the protagonist’s childhood and early life that it’s absolutely essential for us to know, work it in later, instead of trying to pile it on all at once.

2) Don’t take your story with complete and utter seriousness. The other fantasy writer whose teenage protagonists I’ve genuinely liked as people and thought worked in the story is Dave Duncan, author of the A Man of His Word quartet. (Magic Casement, Faery Lands Forlorn, Perilous Seas, and Emperor and Clown are the titles—and why, yes, those all do come from the same verse in Keats’s “Ode to a Nightingale”). He uses what could be absolutely stereotypical characters, Inosolan the princess and Rap the stableboy, who’s her friend and protector. And from the beginning, he refuses to treat them as the center of the universe. They have to grow and change to justify even being treated seriously. Inos gets into all sorts of ridiculous situations that are her own fault, and gets scolded by both her father and her aunt Kade (one of the most wonderful characters in fantasy). Rap has what seems to be a magical ability to control horses, but it’s used for absolutely practical purposes at first, and then Rap goes up against several enemies with whom his magic helps him not at all. Throughout it, the author gently pokes fun at them, and the other characters treat them as ordinary people, or, at best, as political and magical pawns.

And by the end, it all works.

Other fantasy authors can do, and have done, far worse than imitate this way of looking at their protagonists. Step away from them for just one blazing second. Think of them in the context of the whole damn world, and if that doesn’t work—because they really are the most important people in the world, or whatever—then think of them through the eyes of people who just don’t care. That can serve to knock the characters down a peg or three in the author’s mind, which itself, rather than the way the characters behave in the story, is often the problem. Don’t insist that your readers regard the teenagers with holy awe. It doesn’t work, and it irritates people. And most of the time it’s not even fair, since these are, and are meant to be, typical teenagers, not shining saints.

3) Give them lessons in the school of hard knocks. Too many teenage-centered fantasies disgust me because the protagonist doesn’t have to do a goddamn thing to get their happy ending. It’s a stroke of fortune, a stroke of “love” on the part of someone else, or the protagonist winning because of bloodline or magic. The deus ex machina endings I ranted about earlier are more common here than anywhere else in fantasy. Even Williams’s trilogy suffers from it to an extent; I still liked the books, but the ending dimmed my enjoyment.

Your adolescent may respond to problems and situations and people around them in a typically adolescent way, by hiding her head in the sand and refusing to deal with it, but sooner or later you need to dig her out and put her on the road. She needs to learn responsibility, self-control, wisdom, perceptiveness, inner strength, and how not to bury her head in the sand.

Too many fantasies do nothing to teach their protagonists that, quest for self-realization or not. However, at least with an adult protagonist who is recovering from losing a lost love or something like that, there is a sense that this character might have learned something in the past. An adolescent who shyly crushes on a teenage boy, takes lessons in magic, and defeats the villain in the end with the power of Love has learned—what? That magic is the answer? That love is always returned? I don’t know. Certainly not what the author seems to set her out to learn.

4) Suffering by itself is not the answer. Sometimes people go the opposite route and make their teenage protagonists the center of an angst black hole. Their parents hate them. (I always feel sorry for the parents trapped in the story with these Brats From Hell). They have [insert Teen Issue]. They have no friends, and everyone near their age teases them. Their siblings are more beautiful or accomplished than they are. And so on.

Then by the end of the story they’ve “grown up” because “they suffered.”

Get over it. An adult is perfectly capable of suffering for years without learning how to stop making the same mistakes. I think a teenager is actually more capable of it, since he or she doesn’t have as much hindsight or experience to draw on, and is seen as someone whose mistakes aren’t really her fault. This is fine if you do intend to write a book where the teenager isn’t really a hero and/or has only partially finished growing up by the end. It isn’t okay if the teenager really is supposed to be growing wiser and better as the book goes on.

If she suffers, remember that her reaction to the suffering is the most important thing. Suffering doesn’t exclude you from having to do characterization. It makes it harder, drives you deeper into your protagonist, and should make an adolescent into an adult faster most of the time. Don’t skip over the steps in between.

5) Make the epiphanies genuinely startling. It is so very easy to turn a quest for self-knowledge or self-realization into a quest for plot coupons, indistinguishable from the normal fantasy one except that the hero’s finding platitudes instead of people or objects he needs to save the world. “Oh, here’s where he learns that love is always the answer. And here’s racial tolerance. And here’s where he learns that his people were wrong for persecuting the elves. And here’s the lesson about the Mother Goddess’s religion being the one true one.” Yawn. The author lays the themes on with a trowel, and the story drowns in Meaning.

Be more subtle than that. Present the teenage protagonist with at least a few situations where there’s no easy answer, and even though he makes a decision and lives with it, he’s not a happy camper. Lessons that are easy to embrace, on the lines of “Why can’t we just get along?” don’t challenge him. He’ll trundle from plot coupon to plot coupon without much trouble, and the audience will invest in toothpicks to keep their eyes open.

Also, have the teenage protagonist learn a few unattractive or troubling things about himself. So he might be the savior of the world and the last heir of the king’s bloodline. But he might also have been thoughtlessly cruel in the past, or genuinely and persistently wrong about someone, or so concerned with his mysterious heritage that he failed to appreciate what he had in the present. Let his face flush, his hands tremble, his eyes fall. Frustration and shame can be great catalysts to growing up.

6) Don’t treat the character’s beliefs and experiences as a tabula rasa. Those childhoods that too many authors spend too much time on? Often, they’re lacking in core principles. The adolescent who emerges may have some strange magic, a mysterious past, and abuse. And too often, that’s it. The author leaves her a blank slate so that the experiences she’ll have in the outside world impact on her as hard as a child’s first lessons. That’s why it’s so easy for her to wander from platitude to platitude and learn “new things” about herself. She doesn’t have a whole lot of old things to really change.

I’m sorry, but unless your character has amnesia or is mentally handicapped, this is a frank cheat. A teenager is not a child. If you’re using human characters with human-like psychology, then their childhood training can and should bind them, help them, and hinder them. They shouldn’t be able to go about picking up new languages and sword-skills like nobody’s business, and they shouldn’t be absolutely free of embarrassing beliefs.

Some authors try to sidestep this by showing the adolescents making factual mistakes. “Oh, well, she never knew that elves were persecuted, so she’ll have to learn that they were!” But the moment that the adolescent learns the truth, she abandons her people’s ohmygod so prejudiced beliefs and adopts the new ones with a gulp. No crisis of faith, no asking why her parents believe that, no insinuation even that it was a mistake on the humans’ part and not a deliberate lie. She just jumps headlong into the new, and right, and righteous, belief system.

People whose perceptions are exactly the same as the world around them, who are always, always right about good and evil even though they may have some history wrong, are canon Mary Sues. They’re perfect. They can’t be really wrong. They have nothing deadly or bigoted to unlearn. They’ll get over the consequences of any factual mistakes soon enough. And why? Because the authors write them as blank slates that can get righteousness imprinted on them.

This defeats the whole point of a growing-up story. The character has to have something to grow up from, not merely into.



The bildungsroman is one of those stories that I love seeing in the hands of a competent author, but too often its handlers are ham-fisted.




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[info]auturgist
2004-07-27 08:49 pm UTC (link)
You need to take #4, write it on a sticky note, sneak into J.K. Rowling's house, and put that shit right on her monitor. >_<;;

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[info]limyaael
2004-07-28 06:16 am UTC (link)
*grin* I've heard some people say that she actually doesn't do enough with the angst in her stories- that her characters should have suffered far more than they do.

...Which might be part of your point, come to think of it.

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[info]tsuki_no_bara
2004-07-27 09:34 pm UTC (link)
oddly enough it wasn't the slow start in the dragonbone chair that bogged me down - it was halfway thru the stone of farewell when i gave up. even tho things were happening! but i also like the world-building and architectural posts....

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[info]limyaael
2004-07-28 06:17 am UTC (link)
During the section in which Simon is wandering around lost and hungry in the snow? Yes, I nearly put the book down then, too. I think it was only the Sithi who saved it for me, and that's because they were elf-like. I really, really adore fascinating elf-like people.

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[info]marumae
2004-07-27 09:45 pm UTC (link)
It's always good seeing a character grow up to become a better person, it's certainly enjoyable in the hands of a compitent author. But so often I just find myself not...well caring about random rebellious teenaged girl/princess. If only more authors read your rants, the fantasy genre would be less...what's the word shitty faulty.

I've tried and tried to read Tad Williams but he always looses me, then there was his looser unsympathetic hero for War of the Flowers or something like that. *sigh* Give me an urban fantasy that knows what it's doing please? >_

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[info]limyaael
2004-07-28 06:18 am UTC (link)
It's odd, really, but I've never liked anything he's done as well as the trilogy (and towards the end he makes events take such a stereotypical turn that it leaves a sour taste in my mouth). Well, there was the short novel he wrote for the anthology Legends, "The Burning Man," but that was set in the same world as the trilogy and really dark and spooky. I haven't managed to like his science fiction quartet, and War of the Flowers was only okay, though it had a neat world setup.

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[info]bbhtryoink
2004-07-29 05:19 am UTC (link)
Give me an urban fantasy that knows what it's doing please?

Done and done. Charles de Lint. Any of his books, but I particularly reccommend Onion Girl, which manages to be a novel and a collection of short stories in one. Go and read, grasshopper. :)

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[info]tiferet
2004-07-27 09:53 pm UTC (link)
1) check. 2) mostly check. 3) check 4) never was a problem cos angst bores me 5) check 6) check

God I love your lists. :)

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[info]limyaael
2004-07-28 06:19 am UTC (link)
*grin* Thanks.

I wish more people felt as you do about 4. There's no option to skip over it, most of the time.

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[info]tiferet
2004-07-28 10:05 am UTC (link)
Well, my characters feel pain when they're hurt, but when a character spends a lot of time dwelling on their pain, it just makes me think that they need medication.

And I take medication so as not to have to do that myself, and if I'm not going to ruminate for hours and hours on everything that happened to me before I was 20 I'm really not going to pay to watch someone else do it.

I have noticed that certain of the younger audiences like angst. Lackwit sells like hotcakes to twelve-year-olds, but most of the younger people I'm friends with on line get over it by the time they're 15-16. I think that being OMG speshul and having everyone treat you like khrappe is an adolescent fantasy, basically, but if the point of your book is that your character's going to grow up then letting them stay in this mental state rather defeats your purpose--if you feel like that much past the age of 19, you are depressed, it's not normal, go talk to someone and get therapy and/or drugs.

Books that make you feel like a therapist with a patient s/he can't intervene with (because nothing you do or say will change the words on the paper) just aren't entertaining.

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(Anonymous)
2004-07-29 02:19 am UTC (link)
#4: Some thoughts on the prevalence of angsting

I have the impression that feeling at odds with the world is a normal thing for teenagers. (I could speculate about reasons, but empirical data has to do for now.) What comes over as excessive angsting is a dramatization of self and situation -- an attempt of extrapolating patterns and trying them on for fits, or discussing mentally or emotionally (dramatical form allows for emotional discussion) its merits, flaws and consequences. I consider it catharic, in the same way a good tragedy is, but slower and for people less experienced with the ground rules of life (whatever the current ground rules might be).

That alone, however, would only justify feeling and writing angst, not putting it on the web (or in print) for all to see.

But then there's Literature. Capital "L" intended. In school you[*] get taught that simple, plot-driven, action-filled stories with straightforward, mostly issue-less protagonists are dreck, only to be read by the nigh-illiterate castes and little boys who do not know any better. Literature worth reading, and worth writing, we learn, is about People having Issues. Every darned police inspector in every darned prime time crime show is expected to have issues, and if they don't, the show's either reactionary, or (if older than 40 years) charmingly naive, or simply, see above, dreck. Science fiction is constantly derided for people not having enough Issues. And you should have read the reviews the LotR got, when it returned to mainstream attention because of the movies. So, you get drilled to write about People having Issues when you're too young to know much about people, issues, language, the relative relevance of things or the millions who have written the same before and better.

When I was 16 and had a choice of publishing either a bucket of angst or a straightforward action-adventure, I'd have chosen the angst, because I considered it more mature, more literate, and, generally, more worthwhile. (The worst thing is, I did publish it. [cringes]


inge

[*] Might be different in other countries. But then my hypothesis will collapse.

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[info]onyxflame
2006-02-26 06:43 am UTC (link)
You know, I've never looked at it like that before, and it's a really interesting point.

Isn't it ironic that apparently Literature is supposed to have all these issues...whereas in real life when we have them, society in general thinks we can just medicate them away rather than *gasp* dealing with them?

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[info]ranuel
2007-08-23 10:53 am UTC (link)
Thanks for clearly putting into words what I've been trying to explain about why I don't like most modern "literary" books. When ALL your characters have tons of Issues then it's very likely that the main thing that you get is angst, angst, angst, spam, and angst. And too often the author is so busy piling on the issues that she forgets to give them any redeeming characteristics to make us care.

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[info]limyaael
2004-07-29 06:18 am UTC (link)
Oh my god, THANK YOU. I never thought I would find someone who agreed with me that if a character is doing that much angsting, and is so completely fixated on her own problems, then something is wrong.

I loathe reading about heroines who have bad things happen as children and seem to freeze there, so that ten or fifteen years later in storytime they can still be angsting about it, as though nothing else traumatic had ever happened to them or ever would. I'm 25, and the things I'm most upset about all happened within the last few years- but I think a year from now I'll probably have lost most of that anger and angst. People do change, and authors either need to reflect that or accept that they have someone whose severe psychological problems can't be solved by finding out that they're the Heir to whatever.

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[info]genarti
2004-08-09 02:31 am UTC (link)
I'm okay with a character who's that fixated on his/her problems IF it's clearly shown that other characters think he/she is being a self-pitying drip. If they're all busy sympathetically murmuring about how his/her life is so hard, poor dear thing, and/or scorning her with purple prose because they're meanie poopyheads, then that's just boring for everyone concerned, and entirely peopled by cardboard characters to boot.

Whether or not I'll read the story through depends on what the self-pity to other stuff ratio is, of course; I do have a short attention span for that kind of thing.

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[info]onyxflame
2006-02-26 06:37 am UTC (link)
I think that being OMG speshul and having everyone treat you like khrappe is an adolescent fantasy, basically,

Oh boy...I remember writing a crappy little story when I was in high school, where this girl from another reality ended up in my high school. She had a nifty blue diamond-shaped thingy that floated around her, and if it thought someone had hostile intent towards her it'd kill them. The thing was, it was pickier about defining "hostile intent" than she was, and she eventually had to tell it to calm the hell down, considering she and the students couldn't even understand each other's languages and they may very well have just been trying to say hi.

Vicariously getting even with the kids I hated may have been fun at the time, but I'm glad I only ever wrote a couple pages of that drivel. :P

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[info]shanra
2004-07-28 01:34 am UTC (link)
And I think I just found the answer to a question I've been deathly afraid of asking you. *hugs* Thank you!

Which leaves me with another question, really. How do you make sure that your adolescent actually STAYS mature and responsible? My main character... refuses... to grow up. She is perfectly capable of being an adult, when there is no other choice.

I personally love playing with #6. It's so much fun to break down a set belief.

Meh... I've always been curious as to whether you'd end up classifying her as an MS. I love and hate that effect your rants can have on my writing. Hate it, because it makes me doubt my characters. Love it, because that doubt in turn makes me think about them and improve.

The rant on the deus ex machina, for example, made me realise just how many misconceptions dersaee really have about some aspects that are an integrated part of their culture. Gotta love century-old beliefs you can happily break-down into being nothing more than a belief or a myth. ^-^

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[info]limyaael
2004-07-28 06:21 am UTC (link)
I don't think a character has to stay mature all the time. I've read plenty of stories where the character makes one good decision and then lapses back into whining for a little while. At the end of the book or series, however, I think she should have changed for good.

It's kind of an artificial solution, but if you're worried you're not writing the character as appropriately mature, go back and study the scenes where she talks to other people or makes decisions. If you realize you're repeating the same patterns of words and behavior over and over, consciously write something different the next time. Sometimes I think authors don't realize just how repetitive and unchanging their protagonists sound.

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[info]shanra
2004-07-28 09:39 am UTC (link)
At the end of the book or series, however, I think she should have changed for good.

By the end of the book... I think she doesn't have too much of a choice. I think, for now, the others are letting her get away with it. Somewhere along the line, I'll get some of that sense to stick, though I doubt she'll ever grow up completely. :/

If you realize you're repeating the same patterns of words and behavior over and over, consciously write something different the next time.

That might be a good idea even if you don't realize it, actually. I'll remember it for when I rewrite (well, and everything I don't rewrite). Right now, I place a higher value in actually finishing the tale.

I guess she might have some leeway with the maturity though. It'll all work out. She's going to grow up somewhere along the line even if I have to take control of that story back and force her.

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[info]tiferet
2004-07-28 10:09 am UTC (link)
If other people are letting her get away with it, the way to change her behaviour, should you want to do that, is to have them stop. Because no matter how special a person is, the people around them know that they put on their britches one leg at a time, and eventually, someone's going to say to themselves, "I don't care if Mikaija is the son of the Taschin and the Emperor's Consort and one of Ataniell's Chosen, it's not going to help save the Empire if I let him annoy me so much that I lose it and strangle him in his sleep before we reach the Springs of Korravai."

Most people have only so much tolerance for whining and self-indulgent angst. If a character in something I'm writing has a propensity for same despite my best efforts, I'll usually allow the character s/he most annoys to give him or her the much-needed kick in the arse when it gets to that point.

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[info]shanra
2004-07-28 10:39 am UTC (link)
If other people are letting her get away with it, the way to change her behaviour, should you want to do that, is to have them stop.

Her behaviour will change (er... gradually), but if she changes too much right now - I'll end up with the Sue to dwarf all other Sues. I'm not particularly looking forward to that scenario. I'd rather have it she stays a child a bit longer.

I'll usually allow the character s/he most annoys to give him or her the much-needed kick in the arse when it gets to that point.

Been there, done that, really. I guess it worked. Then plot happened and it failed entirely :p (er, that's a LONG story, can I just state it's what the characters wanted?)

Now, nearly back at square one, the entire situation is different. Letting her be responsible means letting her loose and cut her away from everything that's safe. And we don't want her to see or experience things that would mostly certainly create an Angsty Sue. ;)

I don't, I bet readers don't and better yet - the characters don't. She'll grow up somewhere around the time she marries, I"m sure.

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[info]asciiskull
2005-04-08 11:13 pm UTC (link)
Perhaps all the other characters are complaining about her behind her back, and at some point one of them will have the Little Talk...

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[info]criada
2004-07-28 10:56 am UTC (link)
>>How do you make sure that your adolescent actually STAYS mature and responsible? My main character... refuses... to grow up. She is perfectly capable of being an adult, when there is no other choice.<<

Then she's perfectly normal. A genuinely mature person is a rare thing.

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[info]shanra
2004-07-28 11:32 am UTC (link)
That's good to hear then. ^-^

And I do have to admit it makes a good contrast with her co-protagonist (er, for lack of a better term).

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[info]cygna_hime
2004-07-28 05:29 am UTC (link)
*enjoys* And here we have the reason I avoid half the fantasy section like the plague, excpet plague only kills you. It doesn't bore you to death first.

This is also the reason I don't write this kind of story; I have no idea how to make the main character 'discover new things about herself' without sounding really dumb. Admittedly, I have a character who *is* going to discover that most of her deeply held beliefs are what the other characters perceive as 'wrong', but it's not going to be like, 'Oh, now I see that my ideas were wrong, because it's obvious to me even though I've never heard these new ideas before!' No. It's going to take her awhile, especially with a reminder of the downright nastiness of the old ideas trudging along--well, not beside her, but in the area--and with the fact that she's had this belief surrounding her her whole life. Easy? I laugh.

#1-She's going to have to change; her society is essentially destroyed.
#2-Seriousness? What is, please?
#3-Lots of hard knocks. Being welcomed by people she views as 'barbarians', being saved by someone she views as an 'abomination', essentially walking into a different world and having to deal with it all...not physical knocks, but it's not the sort of thing physical knocks are required for.
#4-Her angst is that her country is in cinders. Her reaction involves being even more arrogant than usual. Cancels the angst.
#5-This is not a one-stop change. It's going to take the majority of the book for her to get over her preconceived ideas.
#6-Preconceived ideas are definitely kicking around. How does one change one's beliefs when one doesn't have any to change, anyway? *confused*

Okay, feel better about my character now. ;D

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[info]limyaael
2004-07-28 06:23 am UTC (link)
*giggles* Thank you for a good laugh.

2- The seriousness is just the author's pomposity towards the character most of the time, at least I've found it so. (Apologies if that was sarcasm).
6- You'd think that that wouldn't be a problem, wouldn't you? But authors tend to give their characters only the most superficial beliefs, the ones eastest changed. There is no crisis of faith or clinging to old beliefs, once the teenager realizes that her people's history is wrong or whatever. I think it's because authors are really afraid to allow their characters to be racists or bigots. If she grew up in a small, sheltered town that believes elves are evil demons, though, I don't think she should just accept that elves are wonderful when they tell her so.

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[info]cygna_hime
2004-07-28 11:22 am UTC (link)
If she grew up in a small, sheltered town that believes elves are evil demons, though, I don't think she should just accept that elves are wonderful when they tell her so.

Well, she grew up in the small, sheltered town, all right, but she's an elf. It was an isolationist community, sort of like what might result from the Harry Potter purity-of-blood people setting up their own society, and the most traditional place on the map. Which is why I feel a compulsion to burn it; it's more interesting that way.

Then she shows up in the woods in Par, not speaking Partelan, and runs into this pair of humans. Surprise! One of them actually speaks her language, and seems like a very nice, educated person. The other is just sort of there, as far as she's concerned. When they run into a half-elf, though, she can't understand why the humans don't freak and try to kill him.
Surprise again! Par is incredibly racially mixed; precious few people who've been there for a few generations are all one race. She doesn't get it. She reluctantly and only with the considerable persuasive powers of one of the humans directed at her agrees to let the half-elf come along, but she treats him like dirt which, to her, he is. She suspects him of working for the group who destroyed her home, and refuses to sleep if he's on watch. This results in tension.

And no, she doesn't immeidately realize that wearing her brother's armor is okay, humans are wonderful, and there's nothing wrong with racial mixing. In fact, she insists to the end (I think) that the fact that the people she's met are nice doesn't keep the majority from not being. I love this character, and wish I could think of her name. Bah.

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[info]klgaffney
2004-07-29 09:20 am UTC (link)
In fact, she insists to the end (I think) that the fact that the people she's met are nice doesn't keep the majority from not being.

i think the only way i could possibly be more amused is if she finally came to the conclusion that all people are capable of (and are more likely jerks) across the board, regardless of race, creed or gender. =D

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Oh yeah ...
[info]subsidaryforge
2004-07-28 09:39 am UTC (link)
The ending of the Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn trilogy was nearly enough to make me toss the book across the room and break an action figure or some such. I liked the trilogy very much -- for me it did avoid a lot of the ham-fisted Specialness of the other fantasy I was reading at the time (Rooobert Jordan) and the characters were actually characters and . . .

But, my gosh, that is still one of the stupidest fashions, hands down, of ending the Great and World Encompassing Conflict and I wish the trilogy was the only one that did it. And the denouement wasn't so hot either.

Anyway (cough), good rant. My favorite bildungsroman is Invisible Man, by Ralph Ellison, so not fantasy, but avoids most of those points artfully enough.

I've been working on a sort of bildungsroman jointly -- using a ten year old character. And frustration, shame, and paradigm shifts that are actually difficult and cause stomachaches are so much more fun than persecuted weepiness that I'm going to have a hard time going back to angst slinging. Sometimes it helps for me to try mild speculative fiction where specialness is not an option and to write with other people (including ... parents!) that are not going to flatten their characters to make mine look more noble or cool.

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Re: Oh yeah ...
[info]sabotabby
2004-07-28 11:58 am UTC (link)
I only read The Dragonbone Chair and I'd already figured out that Simon was going to turn out to be the last you-know-what of you-know-what. Which pissed me off royally. (Pun completely intended.) I'd have been so much more impressed if he was an ordinary kid who rose to the occasion.

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[info]otakukeith
2004-07-28 11:28 am UTC (link)
Do you think it's possible to have a strong theme that involves advocating some sort of worldview in a story and *not* make it preachy and cringeworthy?

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(Anonymous)
2004-07-29 02:16 am UTC (link)
Do you think it's possible to have a strong theme that involves advocating some sort of worldview in a story and *not* make it preachy and cringeworthy?

I'm not the one you asked, but I'd say it is. (I have to say that. Most of my stories start out as idea-driven, or as essays on philosophical dilemmas.)

There are two aspects to this. One is zeitgeist. If you hit the zeitgeist, you can get away with a whole lot, because a book on this issue just had to be written, it says something important about your time, and means something to the people reading it. That makes for the kind of novel people will read 30 years from now and some will shake their heads and some will snigger, but those caring for the history of ideas will cherish it, and those who were there will marvel about how far we've come. (Or despair about how far we've fallen behind.)

The other is skill and good reasoning ability. (Will help you with the first type, too.) Your world and your characters need to be strong enough to carry the idea, and the idea needs to be strong enough to survive being played out by said world and characters -- and all that without the author's tweaking. The idea should not be impersonated in any one character or feature of the world, but permeate it, and feel like the most natural thing that could have happened, if you think about it afterwards.

Of course, you could always chose the form of parody or satire, where people expect lots of opinion and are willing to dive right into it, either because they agree, or because your story's just too much fun not to.

inge

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[info]otakukeith
2004-07-29 05:37 am UTC (link)
Thanks, that makes good sense. The reason I asked was because I'm planning a fanfic (rather than an original work) that has quite a strong point to make through the characters and plot, and I wanted to make sure I could do it right. I think the central 'idea' does permeate most or all of the main characters in the story (canon characters - no OCs), so I have that covered at least.

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[info]limyaael
2004-07-29 06:14 am UTC (link)
I think that if the author has a strong theme in a novel-length story, it's much more possible to get away with it because it's also possible to introduce contradictory scenes, minor characters who aren't concerned with living by or expressing that theme, and different themes. I always cringe when I see a strongly-themed short story, because there's not usually enough room to develop beyond the preaching. And even a novel can be ruined if the author deliberately restricts her character and scene choices to only reflect the theme (like Anne Bishop naming her bad guy Adolfo).

In fanfiction, though, it might be different. I've never seen one that worked, but maybe one would.

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(Anonymous)
2004-07-29 08:36 am UTC (link)
The bottom line, I guess, is, that the story needs to stand for itself, and work for itself. The message is the chocolate in the chocolate chip cookies, leave it out and you still have cookies, rely on it alone and you have a melted chocolate mess that's hard to stomach.

I recently finished a "theme" novella in an SF fandom (more handy for political message fic than fantasy, IME, fantasy is better suited to elemental concepts, but YMMV[*]). Most of the characters, including the heroine, have not much of an opinion on the "theme", even if the situation hurts them, they see it as a personal, not political issue. Putting the pieces together is the reader's job, not the characters'.

Now if only it wasn't fanfic, I could try to get it published...

inge

[*] The only good (more-or-less) fantasy with a political theme I can think of currently is by Terry Pratchett.

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[info]klgaffney
2004-07-29 09:14 am UTC (link)
Putting the pieces together is the reader's job, not the characters'.

i think that, right there, is the key. i got to the point where i realized--people are going to come away with different things. for some, it'll be strictly entertainment, because that's what they want. some are going to latch onto a char, and good or bad, right or wrong, this is their love and nothing the char does or says is going to disuade them that this is the Way To Be. and there are going to be those that read a little further under the surface. there should be something there for them to get at, but don't waste your time trying a bash someone in the head with a message, or you'll lose all the folks that are just there for a good story. message is secondary, always--honestly, anything else is a bonus.

i want to write something that people can come back to, read again and again, and come away with something else everytime. something they have to sit down and digest for a while. and not because i'm preaching, but because of the chars, the way the chars work, their beliefs and attitudes and what worked and what didn't, and all of it happening in a very natural way, with very natural and believable results. it's about their lives first, and because they're human beneath all the fantasy trappings, there will always be parallels, even if i tried to avoid them. if people find those parallels, fantastic. if not, that's okay too. i'm not going to rub their noses in it to make sure they do. it requires a bit of trust in the audience and a lot of just plain "letting it go". i basically save up the essays, explainations, messages and deeper meanings for my own personal lj, or answer directly in comments if someone asks, or confirm if they guess it.

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Grapes of Wrath!!!
(Anonymous)
2004-09-11 09:16 am UTC (link)
"Do you think it's possible to have a strong theme that involves advocating some sort of worldview in a story and *not* make it preachy and cringeworthy?"

YES, you can! Surely, you have at some point read "The Grapes of Wrath" by John Steinbeck? In my opinion, it is one of the most beautiful, moving, poignant books ever written; one of Steinbeck's purposes for writing it was to expose te plight of Depression-era farmers put out of their jobs by debt and the rise of big agricultural conglomerates. It does an incomparable job of confronting a social issue through literature.

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[info]billradish
2004-07-28 04:02 pm UTC (link)
Quick definition of a bildungsroman, courtesy of dictionary.com: A novel whose principal subject is the moral, psychological, and intellectual development of a usually youthful main character.

I didn't know there was a name for that type of story. Handy information. And a little awkward, as this actually fits part of my main Nuary story fairly well, except for the fact that all the aspects that make it bildungsroman-like are set up, not the main point of the story.

Which might be one of the problems I've been having with getting everything straight in my head. That's a lot of set up, isn't it.

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[info]limyaael
2004-07-29 06:15 am UTC (link)
Yes, I've poked around the [info]nuary journal, and there does seem to be a lot of backstory to work through. I'm having the same trouble with some of my stories right now.

Maybe a backstory rant is in order...

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[info]billradish
2004-07-29 07:07 am UTC (link)
After going through this rant, I'm thinking it might be good to approach the primary story as two books, even if they don't end up being long enough to actually seperate out that way. I don't think that would be a problem, but I'm not the best at estimating word counts.

I know I'd love a backstory rant. *grin*

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[info]robling_t
2004-07-29 11:21 pm UTC (link)
Oh, yes, definitely seconding the call for a "backstory rant". Somewhere around the middle of working on the novel I'm currently shopping around, I realized that I had built up enough backstory material to justify writing a prequel to it next, sequelly expectations of the masses be hanged...

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[info]puredeadthingy
2004-07-30 01:21 pm UTC (link)
(I always feel sorry for the parents trapped in the story with these Brats From Hell)
Now there's a plotbunny.
By the way, can I friend you? I found your journal through undeadgoat.

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[info]limyaael
2004-07-30 01:23 pm UTC (link)
I'd love it if someone would write that plotbunny.

Sure, it's fine if you want to friend me.

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[info]undeadgoat
2004-07-31 06:50 pm UTC (link)
I feel . . . popular. Jane found bjam through me, you found Limyaael through me -- what's next?

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[info]puredeadthingy
2004-08-01 02:21 am UTC (link)
Hmm...maybe if you accidently friended Bush and Miss Cam found him...

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[info]undeadgoat
2004-08-01 10:01 am UTC (link)
Maybe . . .

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[info]onyxflame
2006-02-26 06:29 am UTC (link)
Heh. I think it'd be interesting if the kid went through all these hardships, learned how to use their magic, and all that...and then kept making the same old mistakes regarding the non-magic aspects of her life. There are some things magic just can't solve.

(I might use this in my novel, but I'm not sure if it's possible to graft it on at this point, and it might end up making it too sad to be funny. But we'll see.)

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