Limyaael ([info]limyaael) wrote,
@ 2004-08-18 20:57:00
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Current mood: bitchy
Entry tags:fantasy rants: summer 2004, plotting rants

The suspense in fantasy books would like to stop dying, please and thank you
Ah, suspense. Probably the most frequent murder victim of bad fantasy, aside from common sense.



1) Restrict the reassurances from the other characters. I’ve read several amateur fantasy stories lately where the protagonist starts worrying that she can’t accomplish her task, and the other characters tell her, “Don’t worry, everything will be all right/the gods are with us/you’re going to conquer because destiny is on our side.” And the protagonist believes them, and stops angsting. And all tension the story had managed to gather dissipates like so much smoke.

The fuck, people.

Now, you don’t have to unseat prophecies and destiny from the center of your stories (though I think it would be a good idea; I hate both of them with a holy passion). But they shouldn’t be a guarantee of victory. Nor should whatever godly help your heroine has, or whatever powerful mentor is on her side. There has to be some room for uncertainty, for what I call “suspension of disbelief as to suspense.” I might strongly suspect the heroine will survive the story and be crowned queen, but I have to hold out some doubt as well, or why read? All the punches telegraphed in the first 100 pages, or even in the first two if the prophecy spells everything out clearly, means that I can put the book down after that, already knowing everything that happens.

The heroine’s companions also shouldn’t have that much room for certainty. After all, where does this faith come from? Usually the god is distant, the prophecy is obscure, the heroine is a callow maiden at the time. On the other hand, why are they rushing around training the heroine and trying to get her ready to face apocalypse if they “know” they’re going to win? The two ideas cannot coexist when faced with each other, and trying to have them both at once in the same story is a sign of sloppy writing.

If you want to ratchet up the tension, don’t drop a big blazing neon sign that says “EVERYTHING WILL BE OK” into the middle of it.

2) At least try to leave the fate of some characters obscure. Ever been able to go through a fantasy story and say, “Yep, he’s going to die, she’s going to live but be sorry about it, she’s going to learn a moral lesson, he’s the long-lost brother, she’s the princess in disguise, he’s not a peasant at all but the heir to the kingdom?” I have been able to do that, and it’s no fun.

I will contend to my dying day that any genius author can take any fantasy plotline or plot device, like the bildungsroman or typical fantasy elves, and breathe new life into them, and have you enjoying them even as you recognize the formula. A lot of people aren’t geniuses, though. If they want to use old formulas, they’ll have to obscure them somewhat.

Resist the temptation for what I call “coy” foreshadowing (see point 3). Don’t equate your heroes with phoenixes, or some famous dead hero in the book’s world. Don’t mention some proverb and look meaningfully at the person it applies to. (I will never forgive Tracy Hickman and Margaret Weis for revealing in the first book of their Chronicles trilogy that a character was going to die like this). Don’t give your clairvoyants visions of skulls floating over the head of one person and crowns over another. Such actions violate the International Treaty for the Preservation of Suspense, and your audience has every right to beat you to death with golf clubs.

3) Use foreshadowing wisely, and coy foreshadowing not at all. I’ve given some examples of coy foreshadowing. Any foreshadowing where the main point is to laugh up your sleeve at the audience, in the (mistaken) impression that they won’t get it, or to go “nudge-nudge, wink-wink” at them, is coy. The author isn’t using it as part of the book’s point, or theme, or to deepen characterization. It’s purely a step away from the narrative and a demand that the reader admire her. “Aren’t I grand?”

No, you aren’t. Shut up, and get back to telling the story.

Even normal foreshadowing should be used sparsely. The author might want to cushion the blow or heighten anticipation for her audience, but too often the effect is the opposite: the reader can see what’s going to happen, so why should he care? In the worst extremes, if, say, he can see that a character he likes is going to die, he’ll put the book down. Even in the best extremes, he’ll read the story without some of the pleasure and breathlessness he would have otherwise had in it. Try trusting your readers instead. They’re big boys and girls, and they can take things. As long as they can “see” the happening coming from the events of the plot—as long as a quick rethink or a rereading of the book’s vital scenes would show why this is the way it has to be—they’ll most often forgive you.

The best purpose of foreshadowing is to reveal the hidden things in the book’s narrative itself: the secrets of plotting nobles, the mysterious character’s dark past, history that the author can’t show beforehand without changing the hero’s whole perception. In such cases, it’s not so much foreshadowing as the author planting clues like a mystery novelist and seeing if the reader can work them out.

4) Silence != suspense. Then there are the authors who don’t use foreshadowing at all, in the mistaken belief that what readers really want is information that comes from nowhere. Yeah, take that, readers!

Not so much.

The typical bad fantasy example here is the heroine who gets halfway through her quest and suddenly realizes she needs the help of X person/Y artifact/Z group of people, or that her goal so far wasn’t the “real” goal; instead of just trying to reclaim her throne, she’s really defending the world from invading demons, that sort of thing. The author produces this with a flourish, imagining that the reader will share the heroine’s surprise and disconcerted expression.

In this case, authors should trust their characters. The reader’s being disconcerted does not equal nail-biting tension. If there were no hints at all that the heroine couldn’t accomplish her quest alone, or that there were demons invading the world, the author has failed in her duty. Neither the character nor the reader can be blamed, because the author very deliberately kept knowledge from them. Not hidden, not peeking from the shadows, not mentioned with explanations that could have pointed to something else. Just off the table.

This is known by a much less glorious name than that of suspense—cheating.

It’s also a really good way to do something you don’t want to do, namely invaliding the story’s point so far. If the heroine should have been going north, why did the author spend 200 pages letting her walk south? Did she actually meet anyone she should have, learn anything vital, go through any experiences that will change her? If not, your book is 200 pages fatter than it needed to be, and the readers can now break out the flaying knives.

5) No false interiorization. This involves the author creating “suspense” by hitting a character with blindness, a clout on the head, sudden motion sickness, fainting from exhaustion, etc. It creates frustration rather than anything else, particularly when the author uses it multiple times. Can’t think of what comes next? Make the character suddenly faint, and you’re right as rain! Unsure of how to describe an important conversation? Have your character fall asleep, especially if the conversation is about his secret powers and he should be striving to hear!

It’s lazy, overused, and, too often, impossible. Do you want to tell me why a character whose worst injury is a tiny little cut on his cheek would suddenly fall unconscious? I hardly think he would have lost that much blood unless he was a hemophiliac, in which case you have far bigger problems to worry about. Why is a character who’s gotten normal amounts of sleep and isn’t tired always falling asleep when someone else tries to tell him something important—and then always forgetting about it when he wakes up again? Because the author doesn’t think things through.

So: Stop it.

6) Don’t dissolve tension at a sudden blow—or, the confrontation should be worth the buildup you give it. Another thing I’ve noticed with amateur fantasy I’ve read lately: the author can be good at making me wonder what will happen when one character faces another or finally reaches his destination, and then the whole thing slips away from her. The slip-away generally fits in one of three categories, sometimes more than one:

a) The author comes up with something completely stupid and out of thin air, like the villain having repented all on his own and being a good guy so that the hero doesn’t have to fight him anymore. (Keeping readers totally in the dark is more purely evil than anything the villain did. See point 4).
b) The author tries to rush through the climax, under the mistaken impression that speed is all you need, so that a scene or chapter that should span fifty pages at the least is over in five. Not the way it works. You still have to attend to all the ending material, however much you may not like it. And even more important than speed is relentlessness. By this point, the story should have your reader by the throat and be dragging her along, so that she can’t stop reading even if she starts walking over jagged lava rocks.
c) The author pulls a Supreme Copout. Supreme Copouts include: the infamous “It was all a dream!” ending, the narrator so unreliable that he’s lied to the reader about everything and now suddenly decides to tell the truth, the author insisting that the narrator gets left behind or out of the action so that he can’t report what went on, or the author just skipping the confrontation altogether and jumping to the end with marriage and babies, a coronation, whatever. At this point, the readers have the right to impale the author.

Don’t do this, for the love of tiny tomatoes.



If the suspense in fantasy books ever did turn sentient and decide to sue the authors that had killed it numerous times, with malice, the list would be longer than most fantasy books I’ve read.




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[info]tavalya_ra
2004-08-18 06:40 pm UTC (link)
1. What about characters who reassure themselves?

I might strongly suspect the heroine will survive the story and be crowned queen, but I have to hold out some doubt as well, or why read?

In most cases, if there is an identifable hero or heroine, you know they are going to win. I want to know how they are going to win- and at what cost. (And squee for the villain if I can.)

Usually the god is distant

God is distant in our world, yet there are people highly motivated by faith, so this might not be a valid complaint.

3. history that the author can't show beforehand without changing the hero's whole perception

This accounts for the majority of my foreshadowing. Actually, possibly all of it... I don't try to foreshadow deaths. Or what will happen. There's a difference between foreshadowing, hinting, and introducing possibilities. If someone is working for the other side, there might be signs of it within the story before the characters and the readers are aware of it. If you know an object is going to be important in the climax, you have to introduce it at some point before then in the story, or you're just pulling stuff out your butt.

Oh wait... ::looks at point 4::

5. Why is a character who's gotten normal amounts of sleep and isn't tired always falling asleep when someone else tries to tell him something important and then always forgetting about it when he wakes up again?

I want a story about a character that suffers from narcolepsy. It would be funny. Especially if the hero falls asleep in the middle of... say... a villain's rant or the beginning of a torture session. Or the wise old wizard's big revelation. Just to see the other character's reaction.

I'd do it... but it doesn't fit my story.

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[info]undeadgoat
2004-08-18 07:13 pm UTC (link)
I've always wondered -- what does your icon say you must create?

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[info]tavalya_ra
2004-08-18 07:22 pm UTC (link)
Canon. The text of the icon is "My fandom does not exist. Must create canon!"

It's my take on all the "My fandom is..." or "My fandom does..." icons.

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[info]undeadgoat
2004-08-19 12:17 pm UTC (link)
I see . . . It's always been slightly illegible.

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[info]ahayweh
2004-08-19 05:15 pm UTC (link)
Always looked like 'cadoo' to me. What's the picture of? Each time I see it I think "Hey, pink Stargate- no..."

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[info]tavalya_ra
2004-08-19 06:10 pm UTC (link)
Always looked like 'cadoo' to me.

Heh. Sorry.

What's the picture of? Each time I see it I think "Hey, pink Stargate- no..."

Did you ever see the movie "Dungeons and Dragons"? It was bad... but it had pretty imagery! The background of my icon is a random glowing object in the evil wizard Profion's lab. (Actually, it's not that random- the device holds a rod for controlling red dragons and Profion is shooting magic at it.)

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[info]catfish42
2004-08-18 09:45 pm UTC (link)
God is distant in our world, yet there are people highly motivated by faith, so this might not be a valid complaint.

But there are atheists and agnostics in our world, whereas in fantasy they are few and far between. And even the best believer's faith waivers at *some* point, I think, but people in fantasy rarely doubt a god's existence.

But, dude. Hero with narcolepsy would be excellent, though impractical.

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[info]tavalya_ra
2004-08-19 09:02 am UTC (link)
But there are atheists and agnostics in our world, whereas in fantasy they are few and far between. And even the best believer's faith waivers at *some* point, I think, but people in fantasy rarely doubt a god's existence.

Naturally- but my point is that I don't think it's too far fetched to have a character very committed to a god he or she never personally met. If everyone on the planet is like this, then I'm going to question it's validity.

Hero with narcolepsy would be excellent, though impractical.

I almost want to write it, but it wouldn't fit the tone of any of my stories.

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[info]onyxflame
2006-02-27 03:11 am UTC (link)
Hero with narcolepsy would be excellent, though impractical.

I can SO use this at some point, lol. I'd also like to have a hero(es) who's actually Siamese twins. Can you imagine how they'd make armor to fit them? :P

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[info]tavalya_ra
2006-02-27 03:19 am UTC (link)
I think they'd win half their battles because their opponent is too busy feeling his brain break.

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[info]criada
2004-08-19 11:16 am UTC (link)
>>In most cases, if there is an identifable hero or heroine, you know they are going to win. <<
That's why I think it can be a good idea to have multiple heroes, on an equal basis. That way, you may know that at least one of them will win, but which one(s)?

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[info]tavalya_ra
2004-08-19 06:07 pm UTC (link)
I have multiple heroes... but I'm guilty of not having multiple hero parties. (I actually tend towards multiple villain parties. But, then, my villain is insisting he deserves as much page time as the heriones. And he's getting it by generating far more interesting plot bunnies.) Of course the heroine is going to win... which is why the fun needs to be in the journey and in how she wins.

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[info]limyaael
2004-08-19 06:01 pm UTC (link)
I don't mind characters who reassure themselves as much, though it can still dissipate tension. Authors seem to use that more often to illustrate the ground crumbling beneath a character's feet.

The hero or heroine might win, but I'd like to be able to pretend they might not. In one story I read recently, the heroine regularly angsted about not being able to win, and her companions all listed the same set of reasons why she would (including a goddess being on her side). No suspense WHATSOEVER.

God is distant in our world, yet there are people highly motivated by faith, so this might not be a valid complaint.

But people persevere with less than 100% certainty. A lot of fantasy characters admit they're unsure about prophecies or exactly what the god wants or will do, yet also say that they know they'll win. It Does Not Compute.

The narcoleptic hero idea is grand. Might steal it if I write another parody fantasy.

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[info]tavalya_ra
2004-08-19 06:31 pm UTC (link)
I don't mind characters who reassure themselves as much, though it can still dissipate tension.

I do this more to illustrate that my herione is highly-motivated, not an agnsty twit who won't carry her own weight. She thinks that she can do it, so therefore there must be a way, so she isn't going to give up, she's going to think about her predicament and find a solution.

The hero or heroine might win, but I'd like to be able to pretend they might not.

I think I'll be able to accomplish this. I know my villain- he won't settle for less.

(including a goddess being on her side)

::wince:: Well, she does have a goddess on her side. And she knows it. But she also knows that this doesn't mean that other people aren't going to die and she's not going to get hurt. In fact, she's not entirely certain this is a guarantee that she won't die.

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[info]tavalya_ra
2004-08-19 06:32 pm UTC (link)
I don't mind characters who reassure themselves as much, though it can still dissipate tension.

I do this more to illustrate that my herione is highly-motivated, not an agnsty twit who won't carry her own weight. She thinks that she can do it, so therefore there must be a way, so she isn't going to give up, she's going to think about her predicament and find a solution.

The hero or heroine might win, but I'd like to be able to pretend they might not.

I think I'll be able to accomplish this. I know my villain- he won't settle for less.

(including a goddess being on her side)

::wince:: Well, she does have a goddess on her side. And she knows it. But she also knows that this doesn't mean that other people aren't going to die and she's not going to get hurt. In fact, she's not entirely certain this is a guarantee that she won't die.

The narcoleptic hero idea is grand. Might steal it if I write another parody fantasy.

Yay! I was hoping you would steal it!

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[info]karenrei
2006-01-30 09:23 pm UTC (link)
How do you resolve the situation where one person has just cause to think another has died, when they didn't? I have a character whose son was taken to a prison facility. She doesn't know what happened to him after that, but he was moved to another facility (discovered much later), as is standard practice (which she has no reason to be familiar with). The original prison gets destroyed as part of the plot, along with much of the rest of the city. The character believes that her son was there.

Now, there are two options. Initially I had someone else point out to her that the state might have transferred him elsewhere (to keep her hopes up). This would prevent the "character is dead... no, wait, they're not!" situation that you ranted about earlier. However, that seems to go against what you're advising this time, how one shouldn't spoil the fates of characters. Does this mean that by your book, nobody can ever think that someone is dead who isn't, even if there is ample plot justification for it and plenty of people, including prominant characters, are actually dying? Otherwise, it seems to violate one rule or the other.

What do you recommend?

Also, could you clarify #5? It's never a good time to pass out ;) When are you saying that it's okay, and when isn't it okay? I have a character who got a nasty cut on her hand and arm from razor wire, which would realistically make her pass out. Any situation in which you'd get cut by razor wire clearly isn't going to be a good time to pass out ;) Well, unless you're building a facility...

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[info]erythros
2004-08-18 08:24 pm UTC (link)
Well, I may as well tell you right now that the secret ending of GYP is that Youngest Son becomes heir to Pandemonium.

...

Also, I was so mad that Weis and Hickman flat-out told us that Sturm was going to die that I stopped reading right then. I was still young enough to be lured back by the prospect of more Raistlin Being Really Evil (a friend lied and told me that he blew up the world, and didn't care a bit, and this charmed me so much that I had to read the whole Twins trilogy to know that, well, he did, but THEN HE DIDN'T AFTER ALL. Never been so disgusted in my WHOLE LIFE, except when I read The Shadow Rising.)

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[info]limyaael
2004-08-19 06:03 pm UTC (link)
I knew that already. Brat. *pokes*

I didn't like Sturm all that much, so that line didn't ruin my enjoyment of the entire story, but it did lessen what could have been a very dramatic surprise (since at that time I still wasn't used to reading books with main characters who died).

I found The Fires of Heaven worse than The Shadow Rising, but then, that book somehow failed to make any impression on my mind at all.

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[info]lawnnun
2005-09-01 09:41 pm UTC (link)
To me, Dragonlance always seems so very, very tragic. They've got this wonderful, fully realized world with all this history, some songs that aren't about heroes, fascinating character relationships. . . but the writing has the grace of a square-wheeled steamroller going over hard-boiled eggs, and the main character is the whiniest little bitch I have *ever* seen. If Tanis wasn't so completely contemptible, it might almost be worth reading.

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[info]catfish42
2004-08-18 09:53 pm UTC (link)
re: number four

This is, of course, not just related to fantasy- it's something I see in the "mystery" genre as well. One of my recent trashy book guilty pleasures was Jonathan Kellerman's latest series (mostly because I liked the sidekick character.) but in the last few I read, I got completely fed up, because it turned out the murderer was someone we'd never been introduced to, heard of, or hinted at.

True, now that people have become wise to murder mystery tricks- it's always the person you least suspect!- you have to get more creative, but you can't do that just by springing something that nobody could figure out.

The best kind of foreshadowing is when the reader says "Of course! I should have seen it!" (Or a triumphant "I knew it!") rather than "What the heck?" (or "Well, duh.")

This is something that I've found JK Rowling does well (though I did feel a bit put out about Mad-eye in book 4.) She distracts you from the idea that there *is* a mystery, focusing on other elements, all the while planting subtle clues.

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[info]nomadicwriter
2004-08-19 02:11 am UTC (link)
The Mad-Eye thing was still the good kind of out of nowhere, though; the kind where you know after it happens that there were quite a few tiny tiny clues, but you just weren't paranoid enough to put them together. Plus, it used a form of magic we'd been introduced to back in the second book, which was classy. So many authors would have suddenly revealed the existence of the potion after Mad-Eye was found out, in the mistaken belief that "Not telling the readers X is possible by the rules of this fictional universe = suspense". Which is a lot like dropping a character off a cliff and then mentioning for the first time in the next chapter that he can fly.

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[info]otakukeith
2004-08-19 06:06 am UTC (link)
Your icon is the brilliant.

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[info]limyaael
2004-08-19 06:05 pm UTC (link)
True, now that people have become wise to murder mystery tricks- it's always the person you least suspect!- you have to get more creative, but you can't do that just by springing something that nobody could figure out.

Totally true. I've read a lot of fantasies where the author wants to borrow some of the good tricks of the mystery genre, but winds up jumping overboard and suggesting the villain is some lord who was mentioned once in chapter 4, the powerful artifact couldn't be discovered because it was protected by a wizard who never comes into play except towards the end, the good princess is really evil with no sign that she ever was so, and so on. The clues can be subtle, but they do need to be there.

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[info]nextian
2004-08-20 09:44 am UTC (link)
Have you read The Apocalypse Watch by Robert Ludlum? Well paced, well planned, well executed, badly written and badly characterized but not noticeably so--

Until the GODSDAMN ENDING.

Now, most of the plot is extrapolatable from the rest of the story. But there's an ending, and then an epilogue, that comes out of ABSOLUTELY NOWHERE.

Dude--and this is a spoiler, so highlight it to read it--you do NOT bring HITLER BACK FROM THE DEAD FOR FUN.

Moron.

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[info]ladyvyola
2004-09-09 01:15 pm UTC (link)
[spoiler]

But what if you do it for profit?

::runs away::

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[info]nextian
2004-09-09 07:04 pm UTC (link)
*mind boggles as she attempts to figure out the profit*

Perhaps a tourist attraction? Perhaps as the star of a zombie movie?

::runs farther::

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[info]dawnkiller
2004-08-19 02:12 am UTC (link)
1) Restrict the reassurances from the other characters. I’ve read several amateur fantasy stories lately where the protagonist starts worrying that she can’t accomplish her task, and the other characters tell her, “Don’t worry, everything will be all right/the gods are with us/you’re going to conquer because destiny is on our side.” And the protagonist believes them, and stops angsting. And all tension the story had managed to gather dissipates like so much smoke.

You know, I'm actually all for the premature reassurance . . . as long as things go horribly, horribly wrong, and it is revealed that, boy, things will NOT be all right.

This is still lousy for creating a steady tension of suspense, especially if you start the book off as a generic "We must fulfill the prophecy!" quest, but it delievers another satisfaction: a good, swift kick in the gut. I think the fantasies I've enjoyed most have been the ones where I thought I had anticipated the ending, and was horrified (in a good way) to discover what really happened. I definitely don't recommend letting the whole story coast on smug-yet-unearned security before the Terrible End, which is why literature has given us Subplots. These are especially good if you're writing multi-POV epic-type fantasy (Martin and Erikson both do it very well), so you can have two or more seemingly unrelated plots with entirely different "feels" to them occuring simultaneously. (And it goes without saying that you should be promptly shot if the events of your plots in no way influence one another in some way, shape, or form. At that point it's not an epic, it's a short story collection. :P)

3) Use foreshadowing wisely, and coy foreshadowing not at all.

Pratchett is actually very good at this, and what's interesting is that I wouldn't even call it "foreshadowing". Instead of cryptic prophecies he actually gives the reader unspecified glimpses of events or remarks that only make sense later, or even tosses in apparently throw-away lines that turn up in the end. He's not "foreshadowing" anything -- he's just laying a foundation for the rest of the story as he goes along. It's not necessarily the sort of thing you can point to on the first read and say "There, someone's going to die" -- it's the kind of stuff you catch on the second and third reread, or remember in retrospect. If you do it right, you can surprise the reader without pulling something out of your ass.

Structure. Learn it, love it. :)


Now, why do I have a weird mental image of a bunch of heros standing next to a smoking crater going "Huh, I was sure it would work this time. Dammit, now we have to go find another chosen one."? ~.^

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[info]nomadicwriter
2004-08-19 02:21 am UTC (link)
Now, why do I have a weird mental image of a bunch of heros standing next to a smoking crater going "Huh, I was sure it would work this time. Dammit, now we have to go find another chosen one."?

Hee. That would be great, actually - a seemingly generic quest fantasy where it turns out that the band of mighty, destiny-following warriors are actually conmen who go around picking up random peasants and convincing them they're the heir to the throne.

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[info]limyaael
2004-08-19 06:07 pm UTC (link)
The story I mentioned that was ruined by reassurances was indeed a standard fulfill-the-prophecy quest, and it turned out exactly as the author was proclaiming it would. A bland and boring story- not badly-written, but ugh.

so you can have two or more seemingly unrelated plots with entirely different "feels" to them occuring simultaneously.

I prefer the different tones. I've heard Jordan's subplots praised, but in all of them the characters wander around and bicker and plot and angst in the exact same way, so I could never get into them.

And that last line is wonderful- chosen ones must sprout all the time, the way that some fantasies treat them.

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(Anonymous)
2004-08-19 02:52 am UTC (link)
#1, Assurances: By common narrative laws, the moment everybody assures the hero that nothing can possibly go wrong, is the moment the reader knows that Murphy's Law is about to come down on the hero and everyone close by like a ton of bricks. I'd probably feel cheated if the other shoe didn't drop.

#1, Prophecies: Two of my favorite TV series are heavy on prophecy. Which leads to characters being either wary of or annoyed by them, since they rarely work out like expected, anyway. ("Prophecy is a guess that comes true. If it doesn't, it's a metaphor")
In writing, I stay away from prophecy because I feel I can never live up to the examples the masters of twisted, multi-layered prophecy have set.

#3, #4, Foreshadowing: I found that I best do foreshadowing by retcon, because I never know exactly all the plot twists until I've written them. Meaning, after a chapter I check for any hints I might have strewn out without thinking too much about it and make a list of "could be foreshadowing" that I can use in later chapters. And after the story is done, I take my short list of the story's Big Bangs and check if they are hinted at before, how often, and where. Then put in or delete hints as necessary. (Two foreshadowings per big event are enough!)

#6c: That made me think of "Dying of the Light" by George R.R. Martin. 300 pages of beautiful, heart-wrenching buildup, unless there's only one thing for the protagonist left to do. And then it's over, and we get the epilogue. I checked the book very carefully for pages ripped out -- nope. The reader is expected to know exactly how the final confrontation happened and how it turned out. And the reader does, and knows that the author mercifully faded to black. Still, there is a climax-shaped hole in the book that I found hard to cope with.


inge

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[info]dawnkiller
2004-08-19 12:33 pm UTC (link)
#6c: That made me think of "Dying of the Light" by George R.R. Martin.

I haven't seen this one -- when was it published/what world does it deal with (re: is it a part of aSoIaF, like his short "The Hedge Knight", or something else)?

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(Anonymous)
2004-08-19 05:07 pm UTC (link)
"Dying of the Light" is Martin's first novel, published in 1977. Very beautiful, very ... "sad" is too weak a word. "Bleak" describes it better. His protagonists and the world the story's set on are utterly without hope, in a somewhat gothic way. DotL continues style and theme of Martin's early short stories.

It seems that Martin's outlook gets more positive with age. "Fevre Dream" (1982) has a hopeful ending pasted on (yay), and "Armageddon Rag" (1983) ends with everyone being renewed and full of hope. I can't see this trend continuing with "ASOIAF", though...

You find a review here (http://www.infinityplus.co.uk/nonfiction/dyinglight.htm).

inge

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[info]limyaael
2004-08-19 06:10 pm UTC (link)
1) The other shoe doesn't drop too often. I think these authors are overestimating the emotional impact of their stories. It's as if they want to reassure the reader, "It's okay, everything will be all right." Well, I'm not worried about that; I want some suspense, NOW!

2) I stay away from prophecy mostly because I hate it, although I've used a few where the prophecy is just completely wrong, and only morons believe in it.

3,4) Foreshadowing is like prophecy when handled badly. The author wants to be "poetic" about it, forgetting that poetic feeling has to be delicate, not pounded into the reader's face with a sledgehammer.

6) If Martin does that with ASoIaF, I will slam the sixth book closed. And jump up and down on it.

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[info]cygna_hime
2004-08-19 08:04 am UTC (link)
Somehow, these rants always turn into an excuse for me to talk about my own story. Sorry.

1. My heroine...will probably be assured that it'll all be okay, because, when you're trying not to crisis about whether the god you want will choose you, or what if no god chooses you and you've been wrong all this time, well, someone's got to tell you you're not. Besides, stupid POV character would say it even if they were on top of a lava pit surrounded by poisonous vipers and divebombed by harpies. He's like that. And things probably will be okay, too, in that regard. As that's her only major self-confidence breach, I feel authorized to have a friend reassure her.

2. Proverbs are evil. Prophecies are evil. Omens are to be avoided. I hope not to run into this problem, as my characters don't really end up anywhere much (oh, yeah, she's going to get to be a priest, like she's being going to be for five years, he's going to go back to be a knight, the other two I haven't met yet, so cannot be sure about). I am a pathetically tame writer. No death, minimal angst, and no royalty. Woe.

3. I seriously need to work on deciding what is going to happen, so I can foreshadow it. Seriously. Right now, there's none whatsoever, because the story is a very simple wandering-around story.

4. See last item. I can't withold knowledge until I have some. The characters won't have any. The author doesn't have any. Nobody has any idea what's going on! this makes me a trifle manic when I think about it, so I don't.

5. I know I'm going to have one bit of information that the POV character doesn't know for a while, but that's because the heroine, the only one who does know it, is very nervous about it and trying not to be. So she doesn't want to talk about it, and he doesn't hear about it. But if I make him faint to preserve secrecy, you will know I've crossed over into parody fantasy.

6. Oh, gods, yes. I've read so many stories where everything is going from bad to worse, and then random bits of magic/weaponry/knowledge/gods drop on the characters' heads. *sets random things afire*

The more I read these, the more I realize that my story is no more than a pointless piece of crud that's not worth the paper it's not yet written on. I should go back to short stories.

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[info]limyaael
2004-08-19 06:12 pm UTC (link)
Straightforward stories- whether they're journey stories or not- can get away with tricks that more complex stories actually can't. What I resent is cheating. If the author assures me this will be a suspense-laden ride of doom, I don't want her to take that promise away from me by snapping the tension at every chance she gets. If I know it's meant to be a journey or wandering story from the beginning, I won't mind.

The more I read these, the more I realize that my story is no more than a pointless piece of crud that's not worth the paper it's not yet written on. I should go back to short stories.

Doesn't mean that. It might just mean it's not finished yet.

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[info]marumae
2004-08-19 09:32 am UTC (link)
Excellent rant, I agree with everything said here and have defianately taken notes. :3

1.) Good points here, it's like in real life most people are never really assured by "it's going to be OK". Since that phrase is so cliche, why would it work in someones' story either?

2 + 3) I hate, hate HATE foreshadowing. I completely agree on here. Don’t give your clairvoyants visions of skulls floating over the head *cough*ROBERT JORDAN*cough*.

Suspense is among the best elements of any story but it's also the hardest to do I think. That and romance. But that's my opinion ^^;

~Mar

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[info]limyaael
2004-08-19 06:14 pm UTC (link)
Good points here, it's like in real life most people are never really assured by "it's going to be OK". Since that phrase is so cliche, why would it work in someones' story either?

I wouldn't mind if it were shown that the character was basically grasping at any hope, no matter how thin, and using the "It will be OK" speech to reassure themselves. But they believe it completely, with no doubts or trembling. Um, no.

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[info]undeadgoat
2004-08-19 12:27 pm UTC (link)
You know who uses foreshadowing really well, is Tolkien. There's just random things that just fit into the prose, and you don't notice them until your twelfth reading, or whatever this is for me now. (ANd I would give an example, except I don't want to dredge up my copy of Lord of the Rings.)

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(Anonymous)
2004-08-19 05:09 pm UTC (link)
Like Frodo not being able to throw the ring into the fire as early as book 1, chapter 2...

inge

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[info]undeadgoat
2004-08-20 12:06 pm UTC (link)
And there's even just hint-at-things phrases that just . . . fit, more than they do for lots of other authors.

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[info]youraugustine
2004-08-19 02:23 pm UTC (link)
Don’t equate your heroes with phoenixes

::grimace:: This one? Is actually a pain. For me. As having a whole other-culture built into my head and the metaphorical structure of the story.

Finvarra (Vian) does, at one point, equate Meri with a phoenix. It's an insult. Phoenixes are very real birds, within the world; they're about the size of small buzzards, rather drably coloured raptors. They were the result of an early experiment attempting to harness elemental powers to something the elves could use. They're highly territorial, and also completely harmless-seeming and non-aggressive.

Until you get near their territory or become a threat. At which point you find the entire area you're in on fire. Likewise, their eggs need a certain amount of heat to hatch, so they'll start forest-fires to quicken the eggs.

The result is that in the elven mind, to call someone "relaetir" (phoenix) is an insult. It implies that you are deceptively dangerous and likely to kill and to use situations for your own benefit without any concern for anyone else. From Vian's perspective at the time, the name was apt.

And that scene will not let go. ::beats head on desk::

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[info]youraugustine
2004-08-19 02:24 pm UTC (link)
. . .and key-misstroke. Mrr.

What I want, from a writer's perspective, is for my readers to have absolutely no certainty that the story isn't going to go Horribly Wrong on them and kill all the characters they love. As a work-in-progress, as the muses are still with me and chatter and this is history from their perspective, some of that is worn down, but still.

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[info]limyaael
2004-08-19 06:17 pm UTC (link)
If the comparison is made straightforwardly and in narrative, I don't consider it coy. I could have forgiven Weis and Hickman if they had just said, "Here are this character's thoughts. He thinks a lot about how doomed he is. He suspects that he will die. He doesn't really fit into this world." Okay, so that example is heavy-handed, but it wouldn't have been cheating, and if it lessened the surprise of the death it might have increased the tragedy. Having a unicorn quote a freaking proverb and look at the character is neither subtle nor interesting.

Knowing what I know about Vian (haven't "met" Meri properly in narrative yet), the comparison sounds like one she'd make, without the "nudge-nudge, wink-wink" factor of, "Meri will be reborn!"

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[info]world_wanderer
2004-10-31 09:27 pm UTC (link)
This makes me think. A while ago, I started looking at the plot devices and such in books. It means that when I read a book, I'm looking at certain general outcomes, which take some of the suspense out of it. I'll take the clues and such, and predict what will happen, and am generally right. Of course, I've also been looking at them in the light of an aspiring author who is trying to figure out the plothooks and the like.

Of course, once someone reaches this stage, it takes a very special book to hook them. I've mostly been looking at writing my books for "lesser mortals" who are still where things that irk us are magical. Perhaps I'll write a few books for peers, but for the most part, I think going that far would leave 90% of the market behind. And this probably sounds puffed up and such.

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[info]pooka
2004-12-19 10:36 pm UTC (link)
1. Reminds me of a recent bit I did. Laurelin is having a nervous breakdown, this isn't going to work, I can't do it, etc etc bitch moan whine. The two older women with her reassure her that everything will be fine, this is how it's meant to be, it's fate, no sweat, nothing to worry about. Laurelin, reassured, walks off to check on an injured party member that's resting.

Cameron and Rith slowly look at each other as Laur walks off.

"We're all going to die, aren't we?"

"Oh, absolutely. We are so screwed."

"That's what I thought."

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[info]onyxflame
2006-02-27 03:41 am UTC (link)
Don’t give your clairvoyants visions of skulls floating over the head of one person and crowns over another.

Unless, of course, the skulls mean one guy will become a gravedigger, and the crowns mean the other guy is counterfeiting money called...err, crowns. And maybe the fortuneteller is related to Trelawney, and when the heroes find out what her visions meant, they slap her silly. :P

3) Use foreshadowing wisely, and coy foreshadowing not at all.

Since I never know much (if anything) about where my story is going, it's hard to purposely put in too much foreshadowing. Heck, I've been known to write a line and then think "hey that sounds kinda foreshadowey...I wonder what it means?"

Then there are the authors who don’t use foreshadowing at all, in the mistaken belief that what readers really want is information that comes from nowhere. Yeah, take that, readers!

This kinda worries me about my novel. Because they're really just wandering around trying to survive, and yet the whole point is something else entirely. I'll probably end up having to plop in a big climactic battle with the mages just so the reader won't go "waitaminute, we went through all that just so she could learn the truth about magic? where's the questy stuff? fantasy isn't fantasy if it doesn't have questy stuff! you suck!"

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[info]juwl
2009-01-04 10:14 pm UTC (link)
Foreshadowing in my stories tend to work itself out on accident. I write from the beginning of a story, and store the bits and pieces of events in my head, as puzzle pieces. Whenever I'm not working on the story, my mind is actively piecing everything together to figure out where the hell I'm going with everything. I hardly ever start a story with a preconceived 'ending' in mind. I might have the skeleton of an idea in mind, but it's never fleshed out until the characters get to it. Probably helps that I see my stories as part of a much much larger narrative... you almost HAVE to have read my previous work to understand the entire overlying story. Not to say that my stories aren't encapsulated parts in and of themselves...

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