Limyaael ([info]limyaael) wrote,
@ 2004-09-25 18:24:00
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Current mood: geeky
Entry tags:fantasy rants: autumn 2004, idea rants

On stepping out of medieval fantasy (part one)
Medieval fantasy is great. It’s just one subgenre of fantasy, though, and there’s no reason…



1) Get rid of certain assumptions about “what needs to be in fantasy.” Fantasy’s a difficult genre to define at the best of times. You could say it has to have magic, but there are fantasies that have no magic, or such limited use of it that there’s no point basing the genre on that, or magic mixed with technology (as in science fantasy). You could say it has to be set in another world, but there’s urban fantasy. You could say it needs to end with a great eucatastrophe, but there’s tragic fantasy. Yet at the same time, it is possible for people to make personal distinctions, if nothing else, between fantasy and science fiction, fantasy and magic realism, fantasy and horror, and fantasy and mainstream.

However, I don’t actually think that too-wide definitions are as much of a problem as too narrow. People seem to start out plotting fantasies, and instead of worrying about whether they’ll have magic or other worlds or whatever, they start out assuming they’ll have kings, peasants, merchants, village inns, travel mainly on foot, quests for mystical rings/swords/jewels, a raggle-taggle band of people bent on saving the world, elves and dwarves, a hidden royal heir, and so on.

Um, why?

You don’t need any of that. I’m going to suggest things that could take their place below, but the first step that has to be taken to write any non-medieval fantasy is to get past assuming it must be medieval. Those are the tokens and trappings of only one subgenre of fantasy, not the genre as a whole. It is possible to write stories not only without kings, but without peasants, without raggle-taggle bands of heroes, without saving the world.

2) Move out of the typical landscape. I’ve written rants on the northlands, the jungle, the desert, and the high seas, if you want to look at them, so I won’t be repeating what I said in them here. But it can do a fantasy author good to move away from the temperate, forested and field-dotted landscape that most of them assume automatically. That landscape seems to be based on England (except with much better weather), but rarely has consistent ecology or much of anything to distinguish it from a hundred Fantasylands. Sometimes there’s a desert or such off in the corner, but that’s only an exotic locale for the heroes to cross in pursuit of the One Ring ripoff mystical Jewel of Ophidian. There are a great many castles and peasant villages and rivers running to the sea. You can probably picture it perfectly in your mind.

Get rid of it. Create a landscape that you can’t picture perfectly at first, one you’ll need to work with. It could be based on an under-used earth biome, like the taiga. It could be based on the geography of dreams, with seas of fire and lakes of purple air. It could start out as an earth landscape and then be altered with the use of magic; if magic functions as a natural part of life there, surely some life-forms have adapted to use it, and the geography may have been altered because of it. (What would a world where magic and not plate tectonics raised the mountains look like?)

All of the changes, of course, will affect the way your heroes live, the clothes they wear, how they travel, what food they eat, and, to some extent, probably the ideals they hold and the religion they believe in, unless those are imports from elsewhere. It’s not always possible to see the end of those changes, unless you’re writing strictly historical fantasy based on a certain people’s way of life on earth. And even then, there’s no reason that the fantasy has to stay historical, or enslaved to something that “really happened” if it doesn’t suit the story. Either way, though, what emerges will not be medieval fantasy.

3) Come up with different series of causal relationships. Another reason that many fantasy authors end up turning to medieval fantasy, I think, is because the set of relationships that most people end up having, and what kinds of actions are necessary to maintain or change a medieval society, are well-known. (Even though a lot of authors end up ignoring them anyway, in favor of whitewashing, say, angry kings or peasant rebellions). There’s a lot of research available about them, there’s a sense that many authors have used them before, and made them work, and there’s a fairly good chance that an author faced with a “new” situation will be able to reduce it to and speak in terms of the old.

Get rid of them. Toss them out. Don’t start from a king, or for that matter a hierarchical society. Start with, say, a society where the people are all equal if you want, and try to figure out how they got that way. Or start with a society where you want to write about a particular kind of person, and explore what kind of society would have turned that character out. Or build on 2 and come up with a set of relationships that the people would have had to form to adapt to that environment. There are all kinds of relationships you can form, the minute you start remembering that you don’t need a monarchy.

It also moves you away from some of the more clichéd plotlines: the ones that aren’t beyond redemption, but which it’s very hard to breathe new life into. The hidden royal heir, the quest for the throne, the too-good peasants and the simpering nobles, can’t exist in a world where there is no monarchy, no thrones, no peasantry and no nobles.

Yes, monarchy is supposedly a stable system, it’s too rooted to give up, blah blah blah. But as long as you’re using it, then you’re binding yourself to a set of assumptions that can and will influence the story, and often not for the better. See point 1. Monarchy doesn’t need to be in fantasy; it’s not part of what defines it as a genre. Come up with something different instead, if you don’t want to write a medieval fantasy. The more baggage you bring along from the medieval world, the harder it is to build a truly unique world.

4) Personal stories can matter, too. It is possible to write fantasy where the objective is not saving the world, or even a whole country, but one person, or one family, or one small group of people. And no, the author shouldn’t take the cheating way out and make that person or group of people the secret hidden whatever and the key to the saving of the world, because there goes the story leaping back into clichés. It’s also a staple of medieval fantasy thinking, where one person must be better than other people just because she’s the princess, or one small group of persecuted people (usually Wiccan-like witches, lately, or a special kind of magic-user) must be better than the others because of the group they were born into. And that leads right back to saving the world.

Try taking an ordinary person and making him the hero, or her the heroine. Yes, it is hard. It’s probably even harder to write a story about a person with immense magical powers/immense social power, and not make her the key to saving the world. If a woman’s the most powerful magic-user in the world, she may not have that much competition on the magery front, but what about on the legal front? What happens if the city-state she serves decrees that she can’t stay on her land anymore, since she never paid her rent? If she’s kind-hearted, she’s probably not going to go and blast them apart, and if she’s a good person, she’s probably not even going to threaten the government. How will she get out of it?

Say that this mage finds a battered and abused child. And no, no one is looking for the child because she’s secretly the Ophidian Key or something. She’s just an abused child, who will need time and help to return to herself. Will the mage have enough strength and time and patience to raise her, even if she has enough essential goodness to raise her in the first place?

Writing about people with splendid souls, rather than just a high place in some noble hierarchy or who are secretly going to become king, is a step away from medieval fantasy, too, but not in the sense that it couldn’t occur in a medieval setting. It simply forbids the writer from going back and leaning on any of the easy assumptions that get made otherwise.

5) Don’t tie magic to blood. Simple step. But it alters everything.

One of the reasons that blood gets linked to magic in the first place is that, in medieval settings, birth is important. Not too many medieval fantasy-writing authors—in fact, not enough fantasy authors, period—violate that. Their important characters are the nobles and the royals. The peasants who might get swept up in the action are almost always reminded of their backgrounds by everyone around them, and, just as often, turn out to be “explained away” by the presence of royal blood in their backgrounds.

*Limyaael pauses to kick authors who do that*

So it’s “natural” for magic to be explained genetically, as well. That would be one thing. But most authors screw up with it in one of two ways:

a) The gift of magic gets tied to either exclusively noble bloodlines, or to bloodlines that are special and important because of the magic (like members of a hereditary underground magic-using group). Once again, that leads back to certain people being more important than others because of who they’re born, which leads to points 3 and 4 being more difficult.

b) Most authors insist that magic is supernatural and obeys no natural laws. Why’s it so obediently genetic, then? Why not just have it choose whoever the fuck it wants, happen wherever the fuck it wants, and vanish and appear at different times? That would unsettle the medieval society right quick.

Link magic to something else. Perhaps it’s totally random. Perhaps it does have a set of laws that it obeys, but it’s not genetic. Perhaps everyone could learn it, with enough time and training, but not many people have both the time and training. Perhaps people think it’s genetic, but it’s not like hair or eye color; it’s formed partly by nature and partly by nurture, like different personality traits or a creative talent.

The tying of magic to blood is usually a symptom of a medieval fantasy, rather than actually required in it. But even in fantasies where the author is trying to create something new, it tends to drag the story in the direction of tired plots, making some characters better than others because of something they did nothing to earn, elevating certain people to importance just because they were born to certain parents, and violating any ideas of self-worth or heroism earned along the way by suggesting that what lies coded in the genes is most important of all.



More on this next rant.




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[info]worldserpent
2004-09-25 03:45 pm UTC (link)
Interesting rant here, although I don't know if people will stop writing medieval fantasies. It seems to me that most people write medieval fantasies because they like the image of them presented in literature, not the actual real medieval ages. In other words, they write what they want to read. (I actually think there are perhaps compelling psychological reasons for

I've been trying to think of some fantasies where there is no magic or magic isn't important to the plot, but that only makes sense when you don't count gods or supernatural elements as magic. But then that breaks in the difficult question of how fantasy is different from modern mythology, fairy-tale retellings, or magical realism.

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[info]limyaael
2004-09-27 07:52 pm UTC (link)
The point isn't to stop people from writing medieval fantasies; it's to point out that other options exist. Sometimes it seems as if people assume there have to be kings and peasants and hidden heirs and mystical swords, none of which are true for the genre as a whole.

(I actually think there are perhaps compelling psychological reasons for

Did you mean to say something else here? The comment cuts off.

I've been trying to think of some fantasies where there is no magic or magic isn't important to the plot, but that only makes sense when you don't count gods or supernatural elements as magic

I have had extremely long and drawn-out battles with people over whether The Lions of Al-Rassan counts as fantasy, because "There's no magic in it!" I say it still counts as historical fantasy, and not historical fiction, because the events are fictionalized and take place in another world(and he's changed quite a lot, really, if you look at the historical Reconquista, especially telescoping the amount of time it took). My main point is that while magic is common to lots of fantasies, it's another thing that needn't define the genre, especially not the usual element-wielding magic passed down in hidden bloodlines. *gag*

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]inarticulate
2004-09-25 04:08 pm UTC (link)
While I can stomach the "saving the world" thing in RPGs, I can't deal with it in novels. It just rings too false. I can see the heroes perhaps playing a crucial role in saving a kingdom, set up right. But not the world.

I like medieval fantasy but the saving the world thing just gets me every. Single. Time. Because I don't want the heroes to be "special," I want them to be like me.

Also, with the thing about magic and genetics? My immediate thought: INBREEDING. Magic as a rare recessive genetic trait that's far more common in the royal family due to inbreeding.

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Magic as Inbreeding
[info]shadenv
2004-09-25 09:59 pm UTC (link)
Actually, if you ever read any of Marion Zimmer Bradley's Darkover novels, she pretty much specifies that a lot of the powers of the resident nobility is due to inbreeding. She also specifies that there's an ongoing "breeding program" to produce offspring bearing certain powers or groups of powers, and there's a lot of dangers resulting from inbreeding and the resultant powers. Bad genes, physical disability, mental instability, flat out insanity, and the powers quite literally overwhelming the bearer are a few of these dangers. For this aspect of her Darkover world, I love MZB.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Magic as Inbreeding - [info]ciaan, 2004-09-26 11:10 am UTC
Re: Magic as Inbreeding - [info]inarticulate, 2004-09-27 03:42 pm UTC

[info]limyaael
2004-09-27 07:54 pm UTC (link)
I have less tolerance for the world-saving now than I used to. I wish people who want to write the plotline the best of luck, but I wouldn't read it in preference to every other fantasy out there.

Does the royal family have a reason for inbreeding, though? It would have to be strong enough to break the incest taboo, and I don't think "Well, we just happened to sleep together accidentally and produce a child with lots of power, so we'll keep doing it, yay!" is enough.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]inarticulate, 2004-09-28 03:25 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]tasllyn, 2004-09-28 01:10 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]onyxflame, 2006-02-28 05:47 am UTC

[info]illian
2004-09-25 04:50 pm UTC (link)
Have you read any of Martha Wells' books? Her fantasies have never been what I expected.

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[info]limyaael
2004-09-27 07:54 pm UTC (link)
No, I haven't, though I've heard of her. Which ones would you recommend?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]illian, 2004-09-27 08:24 pm UTC

[info]tainted4life
2004-09-25 05:48 pm UTC (link)
Lots of good points.

Hm, I always saw magic (or, at least, the more powerful magic) as a genetic thing. But then, I always try to use SOME science in my books, to give them vague hints of plausibility.

It drives me totally crazy when authors don't treat magic with any care-- oh look, here's a peasant-mage, everybody either hates her or adores her! It's like the author hasn't even considered the thought that maybe nobody would /care/. Just because it's a medieval society doesn't mean they have EVERY earth attitude. What if, instead of all these human peasants being ruled by a Human king, they're serfs for elves? And since elves are highly likely to be magical, maybe everybody stops, says "hey, she's a mage" and then gets on with their lives? And anyway, if harvest is coming, the peasant-mage isn't too likely to be bothered unless they think their crops aren't coming out well.

And heh. Another fantasy project I'm working on is set in a world with an unstable magic force, and the majority of the tale takes place in either a desert or barren ruins in salt-marshes. Hah! Take THAT, cliche fantasy land!

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[info]criada
2004-09-26 01:15 pm UTC (link)
>> I always saw magic (or, at least, the more powerful magic) as a genetic thing.

I think that's why a lot of fantasy writers would benefit from studying "real" magic. That is, the work of real people who call themselves magicians (whether you believe them or not) like Israel Regardie, Alastair Crowley, and Peter Carroll (who was greatly inspired by Terry Pratchett). Even Sir James Frazer, who, in The Golden Bough, talked a lot about the various types of magic practiced in different cultures throughout history, like sympathetic magic.
One definition of magic is to make reality conform to your will. By that definition, the very act of opening a door is magical.
I could never see magic as being genetic, simply because I couldn't imagine something like being able to fix a car or draw a picture as being genetic.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]raincrystal, 2004-09-26 10:37 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2004-09-27 07:56 pm UTC

[info]goldjadeocean
2004-09-25 06:26 pm UTC (link)
I love this rant with all my heart. You rock.

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[info]limyaael
2004-09-27 07:56 pm UTC (link)
Thank you. *mock bow*

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[info]kutsuwamushi
2004-09-25 06:35 pm UTC (link)
You mean there's going to be a second part to this rant? *squee* I'm always for encouraging people to break traditions.

I find it somewhat ironic, though, that although I'm not fond of the "medieval" setting, I've never written or planned to write anything with a non-hierarchal society. I think I've come up with somewhat original hierarchies, at least, but I wouldn't be surprised if someone had done them first.

I can't wait to see the next part.

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[info]limyaael
2004-09-27 07:57 pm UTC (link)
Yes, the second part is posted now. And I hope it aims in the same direction.

I think it's possible to do lots of neat things with hierarchical societies, and since I can't think of a society in the world that's completely egalitarian, that's not really a medieval thing. The particular kind of overused medieval hierarchy is what I wish people would get away from.

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[info]tavalya_ra
2004-09-25 06:53 pm UTC (link)
1. they start out assuming they'll have kings, peasants, merchants, village inns, travel mainly on foot, quests for mystical rings/swords/jewels, a raggle-taggle band of people bent on saving the world, elves and dwarves, a hidden royal heir, and so on.

I'm trying to aviod having peasants except in my world's background. I don't want them in present day. Although monarchies still rule, they've evolved. There is a working class, of course, but no one is owned by anyone the way in which nobles own peasants.

A little bit of foot travel goes on at one point, but its necessary. I think there will be more boat and carriage traveling in the future. In some of the books in my series, there will be a lot of traveling; in others, events will stay clustered around one location.

I do have special objects but I don't let them become the key to the plot. And keys are always characters- and I want my readers to care about these "keys" not because they are keys but because of their personalities and charaterization.

They didn't mean to save the world! That was an accident! Ah, well, the world isn't really in jeopardy anyway...

No elves and drawves. I don't write them because I don't like reading about them. Seriously, they irritate me.

4. I think I'm trying to write a story with world-wide reprecussions from a personal perspective. At least, I hope that's what I accomplish. Most of the world doesn't even realize what has happened when it happens- I think the full impact will be realized a few generations after my characters, which is not a time I plan to chronicle.

5. Magic seems to be genetic, but its also random. You are more likely to have magic if your parents have it. I don't think I've worked out any genetic rules, but I don't give it to just special people. It's somewhat common- I have characters who have magic, yet it doesn't play a part in their role in the story. (Of course, there are other characters for whom their magic is significant to the story- but I have a country who has structured itself into classes based upon magic.)

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[info]myaru
2004-09-25 07:35 pm UTC (link)
1. they start out assuming they'll have kings, peasants, merchants, village inns, travel mainly on foot, quests for mystical rings/swords/jewels, a raggle-taggle band of people bent on saving the world, elves and dwarves, a hidden royal heir, and so on.

I'd forgive all of that if the setting wasn't so overbearingly European. Is there something wrong with the Middle East, China, Japan, or Africa? Europe doesn't have the monopoly on interesting history.

Across the Nightingale Floor has problems, but something I really appreciate is the Japanese setting. It gives the book a completely different flavor. There's a wonderful series of Japanese fantasy novels called "Record of the Twelve Kingdoms" based on the mythology of ancient China - the Han dynasty, I think, but I'm just guessing. Even Michelle West's Sun Sword series felt refreshing because of that eastern twist.

I think it's fine for a story to feature a few cliche elements. Giving them a fresh twist could be as easy as stepping out of European medieval history. Medieval China worked much differently. Same era, completely different society.

On the other hand, my interests run heavily in that direction, so maybe it wouldn't work as well as I think. But I haven't read much eastern fantasy, and I think moving one continent over does wonders for making an interesting, exotic environment to write as well as read.

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think think think.....
[info]tasllyn
2004-09-26 08:28 am UTC (link)
you know, this is something i might try to do when i make a rewrite of caerassa. at the moment, the actual setting is your traditional english kingdom, but the actual society(attitudes and people) are based a lot more on the middle east. including the way i have the women dress(must actually describe that somewhere in there. or get around to rawing the pictures...) i'm not going to worry about it for now, but if i take the time to do a rewrite, maybe i should try and match the setting a bit better to that society as well.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: think think think..... - [info]criada, 2004-09-26 01:23 pm UTC
Re: think think think..... - [info]tasllyn, 2004-09-28 01:18 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2004-09-27 07:58 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]myaru, 2004-09-29 10:28 pm UTC

[info]sabotabby
2004-09-25 09:02 pm UTC (link)
Yay!

I tend to like urban fantasy and magic realism better than medieval fantasy. Not that there's anything wrong with medieval fantasy -- some of it is great, but it tends not to give me the same thrill as, say, the alternate universes in His Dark Materials.

I'm not sure why people don't plunder more from non-Western mythologies. I don't think I've seen a cool story with a djinn in it since 1001 Nights, and that's just a waste.

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[info]limyaael
2004-09-27 07:59 pm UTC (link)
I think a lot of people (especially the ones who've had some academic theory drilled into them) are wary of seeming to appropriate or steal other cultures' stories. I can see it being a valid concern, though it really doesn't seem to stop anybody with, say, Greek or Roman or Celtic myth, but if they're worried about that, there are still lots of mostly untouched Western historical periods to explore.

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Virginity
[info]shadenv
2004-09-25 10:04 pm UTC (link)
Can we please, please say something about this overwhelming importance of virginity in medieval fantasy? Especially when it is linked to magic, in and of itself? Granted, most post-sexual revelution fantasy doesn't link magic with virginity anymore, but there *always* seem to be this assumption that if you aren't a virgin in fantasy, you're a slut/whore/disreputable, or you can't openly admit you aren't one.

Someday, you need to go on a sex rant.

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Re: Virginity
[info]chiyo_no_saru
2004-09-26 06:50 am UTC (link)
Amen to that!

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Virginity - [info]tasllyn, 2004-09-26 08:25 am UTC
Re: Virginity - [info]rohirrim_maiden, 2004-09-26 04:45 pm UTC
Re: Virginity - [info]raincrystal, 2004-09-26 10:34 pm UTC
Re: Virginity - [info]limyaael, 2004-09-27 08:05 pm UTC

[info]beccastareyes
2004-09-26 12:39 am UTC (link)
Yay!

I have much love for urban/science fantasy. I'd say it is probably my favorite genre to work in, mainly because I like technology. I hate the technology/magic duology that some fantasy authors seem to adore.

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[info]tasllyn
2004-09-26 09:29 am UTC (link)
5)::Wince:: ouch. guilty as charged. ok, granted, in both trath and forsyia, everyone has magic, but in trace amounts. some people have more than others, and they're usually the rulers. probably because of the magic. in the sinfierel unicorns, the royal family tends to have stronger magic than the nobility/more "common" unicorns. as for the rest of trath...i'll have to see if i can get erin to talk to me about that, if she remembers anything. ::Sigh:: that's the problem with starting a fantasy novel as a group project...

as for forsyia, well, i did make it so that the artorah clan seemed to have collected almost all the magic in the area into their bloodline somehow, so everyone else has magic but can't really use it, but this one family has enough magic to pretty much perform miracles... ::note to self: figure out exactly how that happened. something else to fix in a rewrite...::

(Reply to this)


[info]ciaan
2004-09-26 11:46 am UTC (link)
Hmmm. According to this, even though my two or three "pure fantasy" worlds are mostly medieval-ish in technological level, none of those stories count as medieval fantasy. Sounds good, pigeonholes = bad.

People seem to start out plotting fantasies, and instead of worrying about whether they’ll have magic or other worlds or whatever, they start out assuming they’ll have kings, peasants, merchants, village inns, travel mainly on foot, quests for mystical rings/swords/jewels, a raggle-taggle band of people bent on saving the world, elves and dwarves, a hidden royal heir, and so on.

There are some kings and peasants and merchants in the worlds, but a focus on royalty as the main characters? Um.... Nope, nope, nope, and nope.

Quests for mystical rings/swords/jewels? Nope, nope, nope.

Elves and dwarves, nope. I like making up my own things.

A raggle-taggle band of people bent on saving the world.... Not really. And certainly not from any Dark Lords. I like to have some people think about saving the world, but in the same ways I personally think about saving the world. I mean, just because you want everything to be perfect, doesn't mean you'll get it. Maybe some people get to be Gandhi, or Martin Luther King Jr, but most of us are not. And besides, most people who try to save the world die in the process. Look at King, and that Jesus guy, or even just look at conquerors like Alexander the Great. This world-taking-over or world-saving stuff is not easy, and it would get no easier with magic to replace technology. The only time it ever works is in religious stories, where the ability to save it is built into the metaphysical framework of the world, and very few modern authors want to write a novel about a messiah in some OTHER world, because what's the point of perfecting another world? "And not-Earth-with-funny-name was made flawed from the beginning, but then God was born fully into the world, and did so turn the wheel of the world under the bodhi tree and now all you have to do is believe and you can go to heaven or reach nirvana or whatsoever, and then was the Devil defeated and there was A New World and A New Jerusalem and then didst Aslan bring them all off the boundaries of the world and was not The Last Battle the most boring and obnoxious Narnia book, and was it not depressing that Susan was corrupted by makeup and not let into heaven with her siblings?" And that's saving the world, not setting up the new king in some kingdom where there's still poor peasants and disease and so on. As we all know, there are no more stories once everyone's in heaven, and with no more stories, how can we publish 50 sequels and keep making money.

A hidden royal heir... Ah, no. No characters who are royal heirs, or royalty, or anything like that. No focus on nobility or bloodlines. No plots about huge wars, because I can't think that way. I need to stay away from sweeping epic things, because I have no sense of it, can't do tactics, and can't do battle. Also, I'm a pacifist, and I like stories that are either full of shades of grey, with no Good and Evil, or stories where good people win because they're good (not Good), and kind, and generous, and nice, and noble (in the metaphorical, not literal sense), not because they can kill as many people as the bad guys. And certainly not because they're perfect.

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[info]avrelia
2004-09-26 03:05 pm UTC (link)
I started to comment on medieval stereotypes, and understood that I don’t know what magic is. Probably, many authors you are ranting about never thought of it, too.
Is it a natural force that exist in the world whether somebody cares about it or not, and mages are learning to use it?
Is it an amazing physical ability (X-men like)?
Is it a clever way to influence people and things?
Is it all of the above or something altogether entirely? In a fantasy world one can set any rules.

After figuring out what magic is and how it works, we can set out to figure out how mages can become ones, and what kind of talents they need: maybe, they need a special magical talents, or maybe a good memory and associative thinking will suffice.

Also: yes to everything, especially to the change of the setting from quasi- England to somewhere else. It would change the world significantly. Spain during the Reconquista, Mediterranean port cities, Greece during the Middle Ages, Lithuania that retained its paganism well into XIV century – all can be familiar European, but still unusual and interesting grounds that would eliminate some of stereotypes.

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[info]limyaael
2004-09-27 08:06 pm UTC (link)
It also works to curb any fears that a writer is stealing an African, Asian, or Native American culture, if they use a European background. I just wish they were more varied.

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[info]decaf_kitty
2004-09-26 03:11 pm UTC (link)
^^;; Oh, thank you for this one. Beyond the appreciated links to past rants on landscapes, I began to think more about my world's magic system... I've decided a new sort of idea. ^^;; Hurray! Thanks for that.

And yes, sex rant, you know you want to do it. When or if you do, you must mention palace whores and temple virgins. I want some slutty temple virgins who, to cleanse you of sins, must have rabid sex with you. Just to screw with the norms of the genre, eh?

Thanks again. Lovely rants. ^^ *cheers you from the stands*

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[info]limyaael
2004-09-27 08:07 pm UTC (link)
Thank you. The sex rant has been done, and is here.

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[info]catfish42
2004-09-26 03:20 pm UTC (link)
I've actually been doing a lot of work recently trying to get rid of the "Medieval mindset" for my fantasy story. It's annoying, because, at least in my mind, it's really ingrained. At the moment, there are two parts: the time the main story is set in, and the time of their legends, one of which has an important tie to the present.

I've been working really hard to make the 'present day' not like traditional medieval fantasy. There are five major regions, five different peoples with distinctly different cultures, different attitudes towards gender, sex, politics, writing... none of them are monarchies (I don't think- they're not all quite worked out yet.) and none of them are exactly like western humans, culturally or physically. So, I'm patting myself on the back for this, and then I start focusing more on the backstory...

aaand they're nobles and peasants in medieval Europe. XP I mean, there's significant geological upheaval inbetween the times, but there's no logical connection from the older culture to the new one or *anything*. AAARGH. So, yeah. Lots of re-worldbuilding to do there.

No elves or dwarves, though. Some of them have pointy ears, but they're the same species as everyone else on the planet. I just like pointy ears.

So, erm, yes. Keep the rants coming! They're immensely helpful.

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[info]limyaael
2004-09-27 08:08 pm UTC (link)
It really is ingrained; I've seen authors start out writing books that seemed very different from the typical medieval fantasy novel, and then suddenly went straight to hell the moment, say, a king was introduced. There have been societies with monarchies that weren't medieval. Why oh why does it always have to be the same old thing?

Good luck with your story; it sounds like it could be great.

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[info]sythyry
2004-09-27 09:23 am UTC (link)
kings, peasants, merchants, village inns, travel mainly on foot, quests for mystical rings/swords/jewels, a raggle-taggle band of people bent on saving the world, elves and dwarves, a hidden royal heir, and so on.

Oh, dearie. I seem to have missed all of these in A Marriage of Insects. Well, mostly. There is somewhat of a quest for a mystical thank-you note, though it's a backdrop to the story. And the villain is hell-bent on saving the world from the heroes.

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And the villain is hell-bent on saving the world from the heroes.
[info]venusrain
2007-09-16 04:08 am UTC (link)
Have my children? I'll pay child support and give you cookies!

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Re: And the villain is hell-bent on saving the world from the heroes. - [info]sythyry, 2007-09-19 01:06 am UTC

[info]sythyry
2004-09-27 09:36 am UTC (link)
Personal stories can matter, too. It is possible to write fantasy where the objective is not saving the world, or even a whole country, but one person, or one family, or one small group of people.

Thank you for saying this out loud!



I quite consciously wrote A Marriage of Insects as a personal story. If the protagonists fail, they ... might get divorced, or just might want to. The villain thinks that some of the protagonists' actions might doom her country to some unpleasantness at some point in the indefinite future; the protagonists don't think so.



I think it works. We'll see if publishers agree.

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[info]otakukeith
2004-09-28 09:45 am UTC (link)
Get rid of certain assumptions about “what needs to be in fantasy.”

YES. YES YES YES YES YES.

The other people who need this spray-painted across their computer screens are the people who come up with online fantasy roleplaying games.

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[info]onyxflame
2006-02-28 06:08 am UTC (link)
The other people who need this spray-painted across their computer screens are the people who come up with online fantasy roleplaying games.

Hey! I resemble that remark! :P

The one rule of the game I made up and ran on IRC a few times was that every session had to contain a ceiling fan somewhere. In one session, Mulder got captured by an evil kinky scientist, and locked in a closet while tied up with women's underwear. Another session had a mage who got his powers from being stoned out of his mind, and a portal in a toilet which led to another plane of existence where Son of Spam was using people he'd stolen out of a rental insane asylum in his evil plans. Oh, and Robin Williams of Borg. And a rather fatal ceiling fan. Wee.

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Have I mentioned that I love you?
[info]eviloverlordess
2004-10-18 08:09 am UTC (link)
Might be redundant, but I do. Love these rants-- wish I could get a copy of them all bound into a book and shipped to me. *Hugs.* Okay, got that out of my system...

I've been trying to break away from medieval fantasy, but for some reason I always creep back to it. I've considered tundra-dwellers but never really worked on it, because I was afraid it would turn into always-winterland-planet, and I despise that.

Thank you, thank you for pointing out the 'saving the world' thing. If someone lived in that time period, unless the country was relatively small and diligent, most people wouldn't be very patriotic... they might not even really know who their ruler was. They might not care. I would rather save my family and friends than a place that has probably never done anything for me.

Even Pratchett, my favorite author, occasionally does the 'save the world' thing. Huh.

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[info]onyxflame
2006-02-28 05:41 am UTC (link)
4) Personal stories can matter, too.

You know, that can apply even to a king. Sure he's a king, but he's also human (or elven, or whatever). Why not write about his marital problems, or how he has no clue in hell how to raise his sons to be decent people, or how he gets drunk one night and tells the Duke what he really thinks of him? I think not enough people know what their kings (or queens, or knights, or whatever) are really like, what they do when they're not doing whatever their job is. They just go "oh he's a king" and leave it at that. Bleah.

5) Don’t tie magic to blood.

It's not, in my novel. Not everyone has the desire or resources to learn how to use magic, but they could if they tried. Maybe a mentally retarded mage wouldn't be able to think quickly enough to defeat an opponent, but he could exist (and it'd probably be a damn interesting character too). Also, not all mages are trained by the Arcanum (my almighty mage organization). There are various conceptions of how magic works in various places, so random people can either get knowledge handed down by the neighborhood wise woman or figure it out themselves. Non-Arcanum mages tend to get called witches or wizards or something else though, and the general populace actually believes they're using a different type of magic.

See, apparently the reason the Creator put people in the world was so that they'd eventually live up to their potential and become gods and he'd have someone interesting to hang out with. That wouldn't work very well if magic was limited to a few bloodlines here and there.

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[info]azzandra
2009-04-23 06:22 pm UTC (link)
I actually agree with you about not tying magic to blood. I mean, there's just so much room for creativity! You can make your own rules, invent your own branches of magic, come up with quirky and weird ways in which society is affected, but too few people do that! It's all "elemental magic" and incantations. WHY? My favourite part in every story is coming up with new and original magic systems. I once made up a world in which absolutely everybody was born with magic, but if they didn't use it much by adulthood, it would fade. I came up with a society in which magic was treated as something mundane and natural, just another skill people had (some were better at it than others and most people had affinities with certain types of magic, but still). I enjoyed that story greatly, because even if the plot wasn't the greatest, I still liked going on a tangent once in a while about magic.

Most writers only add it as an afterthought, though. Something to point out that their story is fantasy or to be used as a deus ex machina.

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