Limyaael ([info]limyaael) wrote,
@ 2004-09-27 22:41:00
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Current mood: bouncy
Entry tags:fantasy rants: autumn 2004, idea rants

Avoiding medieval fantasy part two
The second part of the “avoiding medieval fantasy” rant, which is the last one I posted. Some of these are suggestions for avoiding medieval mindsets again, and others are for looking in different places and at different sources for your fantasy.



6) Read history other than medieval history. This isn’t just for writing historical fantasy, since I’ve seen a lot of people who write medieval-like fantasy comment that they had to look up modes of royal inheritance, how a castle was set up, how one fought with a sword, etc. Research can teach you things or give you ideas even if you don’t plan to write based on a particular country or historical period. The problem is that most fantasy authors who become interested in reading history seem to pretty much confine themselves to the Middle Ages.

There is a whole world out there, both before and after the Middle Ages. If you want to stay in Western Europe, go study the Celts, the Gauls, Al-Andalus (Spain during the Moorish conquest), the warring history of Italy after the collapse of the Roman Empire. Go east and investigate the Balkans, the Slavic-speaking lands, Russia, Finland. Go, for heaven’s sake, and study colonial North and South America, or either of them before the conquests. I think I’ve heard of exactly two fantasy series set during the colonial period: Orson Scott Card’s Alvin Maker series, on an alternate American frontier where magic exists, and Paul Kearney’s Iron Wars series, which pictures European-like explorers entering a very different world than the one that the Spanish did. Go to Africa. Where are all the Japanese fantasies, the Chinese ones, the Korean ones?

Granted, there can be some dangers in setting a fantasy in a culture and country that’s not one’s own, but that has stopped absolutely nobody with medieval Europe. (And the authors really should do more research there, since so few of the “medieval” fantasies are at all realistic). Research, research, research. Or start out basing a fantasy on a particular historical place, and you may find that it ends up twisting one step to the side, and really being another setting altogether. It probably, though, won’t end up being a whitewashed copy of England in the 1200’s.

7) Read literature other than (European) fairy tales. Most of the fairy tales that have become endemic to collections—Little Red Riding Hood, Snow White, Puss in Boots, Sleeping Beauty, and so on—have inspired retellings and lots of devices in fantasy. This is fine, to a point. However, just like the whitewashed and ultimately lackluster repetitions of pseudo-medieval stuff, fairy tales have caused problems in the fantasy genre.

For example, think of the main actors in most common fairy tales. Often, either peasants or royals, which encourages more of that thinking that these are the people you write about, and no others. Would Snow White’s fate have mattered as much if she were the daughter of a cheesemaker? Probably not. I have read several different retellings of Snow White, including ones that make Snow White the wicked one and the stepmother the actual savior of the country, but I have never read one where she was not a princess. Same for Sleeping Beauty, which is another frequently retold tale.

Another problem is the “faraway and long ago” syndrome. Fairy tales are often switched around from place to place, or don’t have any specific locale. Where is Red Riding Hood’s forest? It depends on who’s telling the story. Again, it’s useful for retellings, but I think it’s influenced people outside that genre. “Medieval” fantasy can feel like Fantasyland precisely because it’s not anchored, because there’s nothing about it that distinguishes it from any other part of that misty realm where fairy tales float about. Done right, this can be a grand thing. Most pseudo-medieval authors don’t do it right. They wind up talking about cardboard characters riding through a cardboard landscape that could dissolve into fog at any second. One forest is as good as another, one city as good as the next. (This is one reason that I prefer interwoven mythologies, whether they’re existent in a real-world culture like Greek myth or made up as Tolkien’s Silmarillion legends were. They tend to connect to real places and to each other, lessening the feeling of a castle in the air).

Finally, it’s hard to get fairy tale language and archetypes just right. A lot of fairy tale retellings leave me cold precisely because the author doesn’t have the trick of making them sound like a new take on a timeless tale. They’re fantasies instead, but fantasies without the world-building skill and unique characterization that even mediocre fantasists in other subgenres strive after. The cloak of “fairy tale retelling” is used to excuse the weaknesses, while not providing any of the strengths that readers should have the right to look for. (One that did not leave me cold was Dennis McKiernan’s Once Upon a Winter’s Night, which is a retelling of “East of the Sun, West of the Moon” and uses all the right language).

At the same time as all of this dumping on fairy tales, I firmly believe that it is possible to get ideas for writing fantasy from literature. Just don’t tap on the same old veins if you really have nothing new to say, and especially if you want to escape from a world of royals and peasants and forests. Go read legends and tales of other cultures, and all the immense, immense range of fiction and poetry written before and after the medieval period. Some of those authors really knew what they were doing when they changed the old tales and made them their own, or merrily alluded to myths, legends, and so on outside of Little Red Riding Hood.

8) Crossbreed multiple ideas, and add multiple unique touches. I cannot tell you how many generic pseudo-medieval fantasies there are out there with just one “touch” or “twist” added onto them. It might be a supposedly unique system of magic (almost everything that Lackey has written ever). It might be the addition of dragons and a vague science fictional setting (most of McCaffrey’s Pern books). It might be magic divided by gender (Jordan). It might be lots of gore and sex (Goodkind). Whatever it is, it hardly alters the generic nature of the world, while at the same time supposedly changing everything. The author seems to have decided, “My world will be indicated by X,” settled on that idea, and clung to it fiercely.

Aside from the fact that I don’t know why just one system of magic or one thematic idea should stand at the center of a world, this doesn’t seem to work for long. The author can write a few good books, but then the thinness of the world starts showing through, especially as the series rolls on. Unless the author can add other touches to the world, touches that make it deeper and more complex and less generic, then the wear of the basic concepts only grows more apparent. The author may start to repeat herself, without even realizing it. If she tries to explore the edges of her world and push them back, often she simply ends up returning to familiar territory, because she’s never thought of what could lie beyond it. The very limitations of medieval fantasy are binding her; since so many authors have worn this rut so deep, often the ones who follow it are afraid of making very many changes.

One way to avoid this is not to depend so heavily on a single different idea. Use multiple ones instead. If a book you’re reading inspires you to come up with a new system of magic, don’t simply hang it on a same-old same-old medieval world and declare you’re ready to go. Why not also create a new kind of society, perhaps influenced by the magic, and set about exploring it? And then you might find that you have to have new geography, too, and new kinds of people, and new professions, and soon a different world is growing.

Ideas can and do breed. I’m firmly convinced that most authors simply don’t go far enough with them. They come up with one interesting one to play with and then dash back to the medieval world and shut the door after themselves. Try combining a few ideas and creating a new world-setting instead.

9) Choose other centers. To some extent this is a reaffirmation of point 4 (about trying to choose different heroes than the peasants and the royals), but this ones applies mostly to institutions. Even in medieval fantasies where the author chooses to spend time concentrating on the peasants alone, the monarchy is important and never far from anyone’s mind. At least half the time, it seems, the author pulls the dirty trick of making it more important than the reader realized by dumping royal blood in the peasant’s background. Or there’s a church, and while it might be distant the priests are in evidence. Or there’s an order of knights that kind of hover in the background and then swoop in when the hero needs them to rescue him. And so on.

Why is it that when authors start thinking in terms of groups of people important to the story, it always seems to be priests and knights and mages who act within the rules and constraints of a medieval society?

Live a little. Come up with people who exist outside those bounds, or who wouldn’t have been able to exist at all in a normal medieval place. Perhaps they’re women. Perhaps they’re from a place distant enough that normal medieval methods of travel wouldn’t let people reach it. Perhaps they’re a truly hidden or small group, so the majority of people don’t think about them, and they suddenly introduce themselves into the story and cause utter chaos. (This is relatively rare in most medieval stories, where the actors are not only usually known from the beginning but predictable by the sheer nature of the setup). Perhaps they were the very ones who turned a nice, normal, medieval society on its head and scared it into a new form; a middle class might be a good choice for this.

Whatever they are, don’t start assuming that the people important to your story need to wear crowns or cassocks or armor. It once again cages you in the most common plotlines before the writing proper even begins.

10) Name things. It may be simply the books I’ve read, but the pseudo-medieval fantasies seem to be the ones that wind up with the most awful and generic names. The South Lands. The Hollow Hills. The Black Mountains. The Great Swamp. The North Coast. The Big Sea. And on, and on, and on.

Give things unique names. For that matter, give people unique names; pseudo-medieval fantasies often just decide to name characters things like Jon, James, Peter, and so on because it’s simple, even though the culture itself may have no reason to produce English names. Choose combinations of sounds that appeal to you. Come up with names that sound as if they could be related to each other, or possibly mean “Black Mountains” and so on in the language that they’re in. Many authors are understandably wary of inventing a whole tongue, but this article can tell you how to invent a naming language with just a couple words for people and places. (If you get intimidated by the linguistic discussion, just scroll down till you see the charts).

And who knows? Name enough places things like Alondian and Cirdaa and Vlesten, and your world may cease to be medieval on its own, because those names suggest different geographies and societies.



Not sure if there will be a third part to this rant or not.




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[info]eisoj5
2004-09-27 07:45 pm UTC (link)
*is decidedly pleased that she chose to focus on the American Southwest as the environs for her world, because it helps her avoid many of these traps* :)

And a hearty RIGHT ON to the last point. Naming stuff is fun, and important.

-josie

(Reply to this)


[info]raincrystal
2004-09-27 08:04 pm UTC (link)
THANK you for the "naming language" article. I'm struggling with something like this now, not wanting to go to the work of creating a complete new language for a society that's pretty much dead in my novel, but wanting a linguistic system to name native trees, cities, herbs, clothing, people with parents who were proud of their native ancestry, etc.

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(Anonymous)
2004-09-28 04:35 am UTC (link)
Naming, IME, brings its own problems, because you start to wonder why things are named that way, and in what language. I'm trying to shift the setting of a number of stories, and I always get, "things will be named some way for some reason. Until the reason is forgotten and the language changed, things will have names like 'Highbridge', 'Big River', 'White Mountains', or 'Joe's Town'. At least for native speakers." And before long I have not one language, nor two, but a whole language development tree, plus the historical development that caused it, and I feel that I'm drowning in world building and won't reach land (i.e. the story) anytime this year or the next...

inge

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2004-09-29 07:33 pm UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2004-10-01 02:02 am UTC

[info]tiferet
2004-09-27 08:08 pm UTC (link)
I wonder if people don't name things because of the complaints. I know that I have had people say that they have trouble keeping track of Korravai and Vanarijan and Aseilhien and Jardith (the names of former city-states in an Empire in my work). I personally don't think Liuterin and Anshiki and Mikaija are awfully hard names, but...

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[info]holyschist
2004-09-28 01:58 pm UTC (link)
I personally find names easier to remember if they're linked to actual Earth languages. Thus when reading Tolkien, for example, I can remember Rohirric names and words, no problem, but Elvish names all look the same to me.

This may be because I am madly in love with about twelve different languages at any given time.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2004-09-29 07:40 pm UTC

[info]limyaael
2004-09-29 07:35 pm UTC (link)
Repeated enough times, names get familiar to anyone. I think the danger lies in trying to understand them all at once, or when there are seven names that all begin with the same letter and all mean approximately the same thing. My technique is to skim until I get hit with enough repetitions to recognize them. The only things I give up on in disgust are names with random apostr'ophes and capItaliZaTion.

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[info]zekk_skywalk
2004-09-27 08:29 pm UTC (link)
Being an adopted Korean who's writing a multi-cultural medieval fantasy story (including europe, africa, and asia), I cheer at your comment of many cultured fantasy!

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[info]maureenlycaon
2004-09-27 09:12 pm UTC (link)
Research can teach you things or give you ideas even if you don’t plan to write based on a particular country or historical period. The problem is that most fantasy authors who become interested in reading history seem to pretty much confine themselves to the Middle Ages.

One of the most helpful sources I've used for my Dark Warrior stories, when talking them over with my betas? The histories of Nazi Germany and Stalinist Russia, believe it or not.

And it is beyond me to understand how anyone could miss the story-idea potential in everything from the diffusion of agriculture and of languages in different regions to the beginning years of civilizations (and what happens when they collapse). What must it have been like, to have been one of the first agriculturalists to dwell in northwestern Europe, with its endless brooding forests inhabited by cave lions, gigantic aurochs and only scattered hunter-gatherers? What must it have been like to be one of the Jomon culture in Japan, who apparently chose voluntarily to stay in a Mesolithic hunting-gathering culture in a European-type ecosystem . . . until immigrants from the Korean peninsula began to flood in, with their agriculture and even writing derived from China -- a people far too technologically advanced to fend off? (The Jomon even made Venus of Willendorf-type figures.)

I will admit I have a prejudice in favor of European-style settings . . . but even there, and even if you stick to nominally medieval European history and story ideas, there's a whole world outside the stereotyped tales of knights and princesses and peasants with hidden royal blood: pagan Old Prussians bravely resisting conversion or genocide even though they were surrounded and without hope, for more than fifty years; the dissolving of tribes such as Franks and Alemanni into the beginnings of nations; the Italian peasants who called themselves the benandante, falling into trance states at night in which they left their bodies and battled witches; and so on.

Which, I guess, is to long-windedly say -- I agree. Sorry :-)

I made the mistake of poking around that language site, and reading the article on the language of the il. Now my brain hurts.

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[info]limyaael
2004-09-29 07:42 pm UTC (link)
Most people seem to bind firmly to the ideas of royalty and peasants because those are "safe." They don't involve that much research if you just want to write a medieval fantasy like every other medieval fantasy out there, they don't run the risk of stepping on someone else's toes because they're such a common trope, and their causal relationships are well understood. I wish I knew why people are content to constantly produce the same thing over and over, though.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]maureenlycaon, 2004-09-30 10:08 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]rubynye, 2004-10-10 03:56 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]maureenlycaon, 2004-10-11 07:56 am UTC

[info]othercat
2004-09-27 10:36 pm UTC (link)
Nothing knocks me out of a story quicker than when a Norseland! fantasy has some schmuck named "Peter". Or where there's "fantasy type" names, and suddenly, there's an "Edward" (Mickey Zucker Reichart, I'm looking right at you.)

On the other hand, too often, a common problem that occurs, is that you have all the weird names, and you get made fun of because they're "too weird". Or the pronunciation is too hard, or the name is too long. Or something.

On "medieval" settings...how do you make it clear to the reader that even though there is no plumbing, the mode of transportation is by foot or by wagon, and that the living conditions are fairly primitive, that this *isn't* a "medieval" setting?

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]limyaael
2004-09-29 07:43 pm UTC (link)
How you signaled that to your reader would depend on what your setting really was like. I know that I had no problem in believing, despite the presence of royalty and peasants, that Kay's imaginary Byzantium wasn't "medieval," because he used the Hippodrome, the mosaics, the contrast of fallen civilizations, and so on to signal that it wasn't. If you have royalty and peasants and hidden heirs and people being addressed as "Your Majesty," though, it's going to be a lot harder.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) - [info]onyxflame, 2006-02-28 06:58 am UTC

[info]shanra
2004-09-27 11:58 pm UTC (link)
Where are all the Japanese fantasies, the Chinese ones, the Korean ones?

There is ONE story based on Japanese culture that I know of. I've also told you about it already, though. Tales of the Otori by Lian Hearn. If you want research on a culture not native to the writer, but executed well, that's a good series to start, imo.

I guess point 8 is exactly why I'm sticking to one world mainly. There is so much to learn about it still... I know it has just as many myths and folk lore etc as our world does, and I really want to learn it. I like this world, and I like its people. And I'll be damned before I turn it into a cardboard world willingly. I still need to learn and research so much that I can't say whether it is or isn't.

It may be simply the books I’ve read, but the pseudo-medieval fantasies seem to be the ones that wind up with the most awful and generic names. The South Lands. The Hollow Hills. The Black Mountains. The Great Swamp. The North Coast. The Big Sea. And on, and on, and on.

Flesh the language out enough to make those names possible, for that matter. We use names for a reason. Mont Blanc isn't called the white mountain, because it's lush and green and fertile. The Dead Sea isn't called dead because creatures thrive there. Etc, etc. The problem is that a lot of writers don't translate the words. The fact that the names are generic remains.

Yes, the names sound awful. Yes, they're better NOT translated and yes, not translating them improves a story by a thousandfold. But that doesn't make them any less generic. Names have meanings and when giving/translating names that should be considered. If only for the sake of having just a slight more realism.

Also, many times when cultures meet, names get transferred. Like the given example of Mont Blanc. I've yet to meet anyone who calls it anything other than Mont Blanc. Spelling and pronunciation can change (Ki-yoto, when 'ky' is one sound), for any given reason. But names tend to get transferred into the language, not translated. It makes no sense whatsoever for a writer to translate the words. You don't do that with names in this world, you shouldn't do it with names in another world. (And I think I just found a very large pet peeve of mine :/)

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[info]lnhammer
2004-09-28 07:58 am UTC (link)
Japaneseque fantasies: Little Sister and Heavenward Path by Kara Dalkey (not to mention her historical fantasies The Nightingale and Genpei). Kij Johnson's The Fox Woman and Fudoki. The recent Across the Nightingale Floor.

(Chinese is more common, of course — the influence of the Kai Lung stories of the 20s. Even aside from Barry Hughart's books, there's the recent Paper Mage by Leah Cutter.)

---L.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]shanra, 2004-09-28 11:01 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]lnhammer, 2004-09-28 11:38 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]ciaan, 2004-09-28 02:26 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ciaan, 2004-09-28 02:32 pm UTC
Geography - [info]shadenv, 2004-09-28 07:23 pm UTC
Re: Geography - [info]ciaan, 2004-09-28 09:33 pm UTC
Re: Geography - [info]ciaan, 2004-09-28 09:36 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2004-09-29 07:46 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]onyxflame, 2006-02-28 07:09 am UTC

[info]traffic_cone
2004-09-28 04:29 am UTC (link)
With regards to point 10, I'd much rather have interesting place names in English than names in a fantasy language I can't make head or tail of.

You know, like actual English countryside? ;)

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[info]limyaael
2004-09-29 07:47 pm UTC (link)
As I pointed out above, most fantasy authors seem to lack those skills. Faced with the choice of naming an ocean Sunrider or Western Ocean, nine out of ten of them seem to pick Western Ocean. It drives me batty. I would rather have long names that look weird than stupid boring names that get repeated from fantasy to fantasy.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]traffic_cone, 2004-09-29 08:24 pm UTC

(Anonymous)
2004-09-28 04:48 am UTC (link)
On the names part: I actually like slightly more normal names, because it irks me to read about Yaaerrakla from the land of Gantharand. PARTICULARLY when everything ELSE is typical fantasy, and the names suddenly sound weird to make me think "Oh, it's everything I've seen a million times before, but the NAMES are odd! Oh,. the novelty!"

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[info]limyaael
2004-09-29 07:48 pm UTC (link)
It's perfectly possible to form names that don't exist in English but aren't impossible to pronounce. Some of the ones I've used are Beldeira, Mevera, Syelli, and so on. There is a common ground between names with ridiculous amounts of vowels or consonsants and naming everyone Jon.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]kutsuwamushi
2004-09-28 05:09 am UTC (link)
A long, long time ago - so long ago that I don't remember the title, author, or basic plot - I read a "young adult" fantasy story set in Japan. I remember that I was impressed, though.

Looking back on my favorite fantasy and science fiction books, I always seem toremember and savor best the ones that have a well-developed world: Dune, Maia, Tolkien, Discworld, Tigana, Dragaera, A Song of Ice and Fire ...

And I can even be sucketered into historical fiction by the promise of an exotic setting. I still really like Aztec (even though the plot itself was often eye-roll-worthy) because the author did a good job of making the setting seem real.

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[info]goldjadeocean
2004-09-28 11:38 am UTC (link)
So, as I duke it out with a pair of young, "But there has to be a good guy, and you have to be able to tell who the good guy is, and am I allowed to have more than one protagonist, or does that break forumula?" people on my writings forum, I was wondering- do you have a rant along the lines of multiple protagonists/points of view? It would help an awful lot. Actually- is there a place where all your rants are listed?

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[info]otakukeith
2004-09-29 10:21 am UTC (link)
I'd be keen to see a list of them as well.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2004-09-29 07:58 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2004-09-29 07:58 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]goldjadeocean, 2004-09-29 08:18 pm UTC

[info]bbhtryoink
2004-09-28 12:05 pm UTC (link)
I have read several different retellings of Snow White, including ones that make Snow White the wicked one and the stepmother the actual savior of the country, but I have never read one where she was not a princess.

Is this "Snow, Glass, Apples" by Neil Gaiman? Because I love that story. (If you haven't read it, I can give you a link.)

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[info]limyaael
2004-09-29 08:01 pm UTC (link)
I read it. It was all right.

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[info]avrelia
2004-09-28 12:06 pm UTC (link)
I love fairytale retellings – in theory. They are a wonderful read if they are done well. A good example would be already mentioned The Fox Woman by Kij Johnson.

Too many times when I tried to read a retelling of a fairytale, it was boring because it was just it: retelling, more or less close to the original text. It doesn’t matter whether it is a well-known tale or more obscure ones. Maybe, it is often even worse with the obscure fairytales, because the authors don’t feel like doing any work with it all. Whereas good things about fairytales are that they give ready-to-use interesting plots, that after some thinking, and asking questions, and research can turn into great stories – no matter where are they set. But, well, it requires some effort and imagination. Another problem – retelling authors often slavishly follows the original plot (even if they are trying to subvert it). Why? More interesting if the story has this element form one tale, that element from another tale, the third one is a part of a background, the plot goes wherever it makes sense for it to go, and all together works in the world in the story.

It also works to curb any fears that a writer is stealing an African, Asian, or Native American culture, if they use a European background. I just wish they were more varied.

Stealing? That’s preposterous. The stories set in the “obscure” culture do look ridiculous sometimes, when the author didn’t bother to learn something about culture she is writing about, but just included some token elements, so the whole ended up looking as a curiosity shop (I am thinking about Mercedes Lackey and Orson Scott Card whose stories with Russian settings looked that way to me.)


Two questions that are kind of tangential to this rant, but still:

1)I understand you Spanish. If so have you ever seen original fantasy novels written in Spanish? Are they any different?

2)Have you written about Arthurian myths and their stereotypes? They often bother me in fantasy.

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[info]avrelia
2004-09-28 12:08 pm UTC (link)
Sorry, I should have proofread it first.

I understand you Spanish.

should be:

I understand you know Spanish.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2004-09-29 08:03 pm UTC

[info]holyschist
2004-09-28 01:59 pm UTC (link)
Read history other than medieval history.

I'm gathering you mean "Western European high medieval" by this, because I would use "medieval" to cover a range of cultures (and to a lesser extent time periods), including Asia and the Middle East. It would definitely apply to Eastern Europe/Russia, which get little attention from the English/Celtic-based fantasy authors.

I'm definitely a big fan of the concept of more history-based fantasy (not even necessarily historical fantasy, although I'm still looking for an HF author I like as much as Kay) that's non-European-based. Too often Asia and the Middle East especially get relegated to Generic Societies in Eurocentric medieval fantasy, and it bugs me, given the richness and variety of cultural material to work with there. One thing I've been thinking about recently is the theory Gavin Menzies puts forth in 1421 -- that the Chinese reached the New World before Europeans. Sure, his research isn't great and he's kind of a wacko, but as a fantasy (probably tending towards magic realism) or alternate history idea? Very interesting, I think.

I have mixed feelings about generic fantasy names, but that may just be because of my historical fantasy/linguistic fantasy/alternate history bent.

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[info]limyaael
2004-09-29 08:05 pm UTC (link)
Yes, Western European high medieval, because so many people assume that that= medieval. Only, as I note, it's not even that, really. The problems and the costs and the really interesting things about it get ignored in favor of presenting yet another pretty princess on a quest.

Different time periods and different places... I'd love to write them. I'm afraid of offending people who come from those cultures, though.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) - [info]maureenlycaon, 2004-10-01 02:55 am UTC

[info]jetamors
2004-09-28 02:31 pm UTC (link)
6) Read history other than medieval history.

Yes, yes, DEAR GOD YES!! I am so sick of medieval Western European fantasy. There are other cultures! There are other times! Branch out!!

BTW, a great African-American speculative fiction anthology is Dark Matter, edited by Sheree Thomas. I highly recommend it to everyone.

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[info]limyaael
2004-09-29 08:07 pm UTC (link)
Thank you very much for the link! I haven't been able to find much information at all about Afrian-American fantasy or science fiction authors. This looks great.

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[info]otakukeith
2004-09-29 10:17 am UTC (link)
Where are all the Japanese fantasies, the Chinese ones, the Korean ones?

The snide answer to this is: "In Japan, China and Korea." ;) There are loads of anime and/or manga series set in Asian-style fantasy worlds (as well as some set in European medieval ones, like Records of Lodoss War). Inu-Yasha, Fushigi Yuugi and Twelve Kingdoms spring to mind - the latter actually comes from a series of novels.

You know, you could do worse than watch some upmarket Chinese martial arts films like Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon or Hero. They're essentially fantasy set in a historical Chinese setting.

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[info]tasllyn
2004-09-29 11:46 am UTC (link)
oh yes, still need to see hero.... ahem. i think i'll post a longer comment later when i have more time but, for now...

on the multicultural/fairytale retelling idea....

one of my latest projects is to do a retelling of aladdin. except in china, where the story is actually set(since most versions almost always set it in arabia because, hey it's part of arabian nights! and yes, i will admit that the few times i'm seen it set in china, the stories were either extremely childish and/or well, it really sucked.) unfortunately, i'm not too familiar with chinese history and mythology, and i want to learn more about it before i try this. the only change i've thought of so far is to change the two genies into chinese dragons.

anyway, i was wondering if anyone could point me in the direction of some good sources for chinese mythology? i should probably look into more of the history as well, but a lot of tmes i tend to understand a culture better through its mythology rather than its history. for that matter, i wish our vcr worked right so i could rewatch fushigi yugi...it's been way too long...

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Still brilliant, as always...
[info]eviloverlordess
2004-10-18 08:14 am UTC (link)
Yay! You mentioned the fairy tales!

I love my 'A Harvest of World Folktales' book. It's got a few hundred tales from all over the world, and I've been playing around with several ideas I gleamed from it. (Speaking of fairy tales, has anyone else noticed the distressing trend of teenage writing that takes place in Japan? Since anime and manga got popular in the US, you can't go anywhere online without tripping over a demon fox and a couple of magic ninjas.)

This reminded me of my Canadian frontier-exploration fantasy I wanted to write. Whoot!

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Friending?
[info]lilyflower025
2005-02-27 07:10 am UTC (link)
Do you mind if I friend you? I love your rants--I'm going to attempt to read all of them, though it might take a while. You mentioned on your info page that there are some rants that are locked, and I'd like to see them! You point out so many things that so many people don't even think to think about... Every fantasy writer should read these and learn.
And, as an aside, could you possibly write a rant about either a) modern fantasies or b) fantasies that don't necessarily need magic in the form of 'wave a hand, light a fire?'
L.
PS-As a quick aside, is a fantasy a fantasy without magic? What actually defines the genre in a practical way?

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[info]asciiskull
2005-04-08 06:18 am UTC (link)
The South Lands. The Hollow Hills. The Black Mountains. The Great Swamp. The North Coast. The Big Sea. And on, and on, and on.

Well, I live on Long Island, where such names are interspersed with native american names. In fact, I'm within spitting distanct of Half Hollow Hills, Bald Hill, and the North Shore... (not to mention "Long Island" itself...)

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[info]onyxflame
2006-02-28 06:45 am UTC (link)
7) Read literature other than (European) fairy tales.

I think where American writers screw up with this is that if they do read stories from other cultures, they don't make any sense on a gut level. We're used to having nice neat morals, and those don't always show up in foreign stuff. A person from that culture would probably get a lot more meaning out of their stories than poor woefully undereducated me, heh. (I stumble every time I find another Greek myth talking about Zues or someone turning into a platypus and boinking some chick. There's obviously a lot of attitude differences there, and I don't know whether I can ever understand them the way they're meant to be understood.)

Ideas can and do breed. I’m firmly convinced that most authors simply don’t go far enough with them. They come up with one interesting one to play with and then dash back to the medieval world and shut the door after themselves.

You know an idea that'd require a vastly different world than the ones we're used to?

What about a race of people who were literally incapable of intentionally physically harming each other? (You could take the easy way out and explain this by saying it was because of their magic or their god or somesuch. I'm sure there's other explanations though.) They wouldn't have armies, or knights, or 1337 martial artist types. Their wars would probably involve words rather than swords and arrows and fireballs. There wouldn't be laws against killing each other, since if anyone tried he'd die anyway, although there might be laws about how to deal with the aftermath of this. There would be no "death penalty" punishment for any crime, and they'd consider different things as crimes, with a totally different hierarchy from the ones we're used to. Of course, most authors would then dump in a typical medieval culture deciding to attack them. Rather lame cop-out in my opinion, though. A lot of stories could be told in that culture, just so we could see how they interact.

Or what about a society that has no concept of personal property? Since you couldn't "own" a house, this might lead to no concept of privacy too, and total strangers could wander through your home freely. This would lead to different rules of politeness. Can you imagine a society where it was a great compliment to let someone watch you take a dump, because it proved that you trusted them? There wouldn't be money, or thievery, or even jealousy of the "you slept with my wife!" type. (There might be something like shops, but they'd be a lot different than what we know.) I can't even begin to think of all the things that'd be different in a culture like that. And yet, most authors would have another culture show up and go "hey they won't punish me for stealing, I'm gonna take all their stuff!". Stupid authors. :P

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