Limyaael ([info]limyaael) wrote,
@ 2004-09-29 22:26:00
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Current mood: contemplative
Entry tags:fantasy rants: autumn 2004, rants on romance

On doing good fantasy romances
Since I rag on them so often, I suppose it’s fair to depict what I would consider a good romance in fantasy—not a healthy one, necessarily, since twisted relationships can be fun to read (and write) but a well-portrayed one.



1) Don’t use “love” to force two basically incompatible characters together. I have read fantasies by authors skilled in characterization, who managed to convince me that these two separate and very different people would never live together peacefully. Their weaknesses wouldn’t complement each other. Their bickering was shallow, fueled on annoyance instead of lust. They frequently disparaged each other’s beliefs and ideals, and made no effort to empathize with each other. They had backgrounds so different that it seemed as if they would never be able to compromise.

And then the author declared them in love.

I mean, why? Why not show them engaging in compromises, arguments where they realized their differences instead of shoving them in each other’s faces, companionable moments when they managed to get past their differences and see each other as people instead of sex objects? I’m always reading over these kinds of romances, hoping to find the magical turning point where the author might have indicated how these people could last in a relationship. I’m always disappointed.

The idea that “opposites attract” has some merit—just as does “birds of a feather flock together”—and some couples might run more on lust and antagonistic attraction than on traditional fluffy romantic love. But if they share no bond of common interest and don’t really like each other, why are they “in love” instead of people who have sex? (Probably because most fantasy authors can’t conceive of sex without love). Either show how they’re able to function, or give up the notion that they must be in love because it’s destiny, and so on.

2) Rely on dramatic situations other than the last-minute rescue. Fantasy has a whole cluster of problems representing female characters. To their credit, a lot of fantasy authors do try to portray women who don’t fall into either the “helpless princess” cliché, or the “warrior woman” cliché. However, in a fantasy romance, the female, even if strong, spends an unenviable portion of the story falling apart and getting rescued by the hero.

First of all, why does there need to be a rescue? Fantasy authors overuse this dreadfully, and at this point it’s one of those plotlines where you can predict almost every trope, down to the rats and straw in the dungeons and the rescuer charging in just as the prisoner is about to be raped/sacrificed/killed. Second, why is the heroine always the one getting captured, and why is she always bait to lure the man (assuming that she’s involved in a heterosexual romance)? In fantasies where the heroine is the protagonist and powerful in her own right, she’s still more vulnerable to capture, for, um, well, some reason. Don’t ask me. And the object is almost always to get at the male protagonist or trap him, despite the woman’s being powerful. I can recall very few fantasies where the villain captures the heroine just in order to put her out of commission, or kidnaps her lover in order to make her come and get him. When and if the villain takes someone important to the heroine, it’s almost always a child or a younger sibling, a play on maternal stereotypes again.

Try putting the people in love in some other situation that touches or strains or proves the strength of their bond. Some other ideas beyond dramatic rescues:

-one of them conceals an important secret (not something stupid and petty that he or she just didn’t want to tell), the other finds out, and they actually talk about it.
-they fail at some important part of their mission.
-they make a decision that causes harm to other people.
-they lose one of their children.
-something happens to one of them that the other had an indirect hand in causing.
-there’s abuse or an unequal relationship involved (very common in “evil” relationships that the author never meant to work out, very rare in actual supposedly loving romances.)

3) Show rough patches and sweet patches all along the way. The pattern of many fantasy romances is to start out with the couple bickering and hating each other, until they have their epiphany (usually built on sexual lust or that completely unconvincing bolt from the blue that “they’ve loved each other all along!”) After that, everything is fine. The bickering is always affectionate, they might get angry but they apologize at once, their magic combines and saves the day, they defeat the Dark Lord because they are in love—please to look at point 6—etc.

Oh, please.

I object to this kind of romance for the same reason I object to the romances where the lovers can hear each other’s thoughts/are reincarnated lovers doomed destined to be together throughout eternity/are soulbonded (all of which temptations are incredibly, well, tempting in fantasy). It’s boring. The author strips all conflict from the story past a certain point, for the sake of creating many cutesy scenes where the characters peek at each other and giggle. It is, in fact, a special form of flaw-scrubbing. The author cleans all that messy conflict up, for the sake of creating a relationship that the reader supposedly can’t help but love.

Retaining conflict in the romance gives you another source of discomfort/pain/intrigue to explore. Done right, every problem solved will bring up another problem to deal with, and every compromise can’t be permanent, and there may be long-lasting, nagging little things that will never go away. The people in the romance remain people, not transformed, as they too often are, into perfect shining idols that the reader is fit only to grovel before.

4) Place the romantic partners in the center of danger, too. And I don’t mean just danger of breakups or jealousy, which many authors do do. I mean fantasy kind of danger: battle, murder, big nasty magic storms, Dark Lords, plagues, riots, and so on. Another thing that often happens when the author proclaims thus-and-so to be the protagonist and thus-and-so to be the love interest is the prompt diminishing of danger to them. The audience knows that the hero is unlikely to die, but let him be in love and he’s unlikely to get maimed or seriously hit by tragedy as opposed to angst, either. (Can’t have scars on that handsome face, after all!) And his love interest shares the immunity. There goes some of the story’s tension right out the window.

If you do feel utterly unable, as an author, to damage the lovebirds, then you have to get really, really good at crafting the illusion that you could. This is what I call “suspension of disbelief as to suspense.” I might have the strong suspicion, based on my familiarity with other fantasy books, that the heroine is going to survive and triumph and get her guy, but why should I read the story at all if the author agrees with me and presents every possible “danger” as silly or trivial? Once again, conflict= story. Lack of conflict= tedious and boring hymn to the character’s perfections.

And every once in a while, it really is nice to see a couple growing closer, apparently on top of the world, surviving everything—and then the author cripples one of them, or gives one powerful magic that causes jealousy in their partner, or kills one of them, and the other has to wallow in devastation. That’s using the contrasting, usual conventions of the genre to good effect.

5) Avoid the “real me” syndrome. The “real me syndrome” is what I call it when a character falls in love with another character in fantasy, and they promptly declare, or muse, that no one else has ever seen the “real me” and they put on a false mask for everyone else. It’s especially true when people from different social classes, like a princess and a peasant, fall in love, or people of different races, or people of different species, or whatever. Somehow, despite the characters often having a loving family and friends, they feel compelled to lie to them (why?) and their lover is the first one to see them “as a real person” (why?)

It seems to be the lover’s difference that compels the characters to show their real selves, which often aren’t that varied from the supposedly false selves they’ve been showing to other people. The notion of making two different people fall in love just so that they can show off their scars to each other is, well, puzzling. If the point is supposed to be that these people are crossing class or cultural or racial or religious boundaries, particularly when their peoples have been enemies (an honored and time-worn plot), wouldn’t they need to have an open-mindedness to want to perceive the humanity within the difference anyway? A self-absorption and a longing to show off their self-pity to other people seems to contradict that.

6) Don’t make love the solution to everything. Right behind the mage somehow discovering his love for everyone and using that to control his magic in a cliché fantasy ending are the couple who, joined in their pure and wonderful love, are able to defeat the Dark Lord.

Yes, they’re happy and I’m sure they’re both good in bed, but is that really enough to change the world?

Speaking seriously, I think such an ending cheapens the romantic relationship, not deepens it. It isn’t allowed to exist on its own, as a bond that the characters enter into, fall out of, wrench, break, strengthen, and so on, the way that friendships and parental relationships in fantasy more usually function. It’s reduced to a plot device. The hero might as well have a checklist:

-Bicker with pretty girl.
-Snatch glimpses of her bathing.
-Angst about defeating the Dark Lord.
-Fall in love/have sex.
-Defeat Dark Lord.

Is that really the way that you want readers to perceive your characters?

Love can be part of the solution, but I think it’s better to have the lovers trusting each other enough to make hard decisions, to follow each other into battle when no one else can (something I find much more interesting than the dramatic rescue), and to let go if necessary. None of this elevating above other lovers, who apparently couldn’t defeat the Dark Lord even if they tried. None of this exalting them simply for being in love. Show the consequences of their being in love instead, and maybe those really would be enough to change the world.



Must think about what rant to do next.




(Post a new comment)


[info]ihrketayhl
2004-09-29 07:56 pm UTC (link)
Hi, I've been reading your rants for a LONG time...and, um... *attempts to think of something intelligent to say* ...they're spiffy?

...No, seriously, your rants have really helped me in working on this fantasy novel that's been eating my head, and I love your taste in reading (got me hooked on Kay AND Martin AND Carol Berg, and yes, Jordan is awful). But this rant in particular was JUST what I needed right now, so, I've decided to delurk and friend you.

*does so*

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[info]limyaael
2004-09-29 08:10 pm UTC (link)
Hi. *friends you back*

I'm glad if I can help you and get you hooked on the authors I like. Those kinds of things are what I live for. *grin*

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]sparrow_wings, 2004-09-30 05:41 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2004-10-01 07:21 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]ihrketayhl, 2004-10-01 10:13 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]sparrow_wings, 2004-10-02 12:12 pm UTC

[info]graygirl
2004-09-29 08:01 pm UTC (link)
You're so very wise, yes. :)

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[info]limyaael
2004-09-29 08:10 pm UTC (link)
Thank you. ;)

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[info]tainted4life
2004-09-29 08:18 pm UTC (link)
Heh! This is exactly why I wanted you to edit those chapters!

Yeah. I wrote Vinsett and Bella to fall in love with each other. No, seriously, I did. All kinds of fucked up love for each other, yes, but that's why they were made. Well, actually, Vinsett's patron god decided "hey I'll keep this soul" and then decided to reward Vinsett because He didn't have any other followers to shower gifts on, and so He decided to give him Bellatrix.

Oh god... I think I broke 1) with that.

...is that bad? Because the Bad Guy kidnaps Bellatrix, except it's more to punish her for not being ohmygod so perfect for Vinsett yet than to lure Vinsett to him, because he's a psycho who's been stalking Vinsett for four years. Does that count as a breach of 2)?

At least I KNOW I didn't do 6. He never actually SEES her naked, aside from Bad Guy's unclever attempts to get them together. And they don't fall in love, have sex, or even really start noticing the sexual undertone to a lot of the tension between them until the second book, when he gets turned into a seventeen year old.

God, I love that pair. They're a trip.

And do a rant on virgins, or just sexuality! That could be fun!

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]limyaael
2004-10-01 07:23 am UTC (link)
It certainly sounds like an unusual motivation for 2). I think a large part of it would depend on how Bellatrix reacts in captivity, though. Does she just sit there? Does she wail and cry? Or does she try to escape and kick some ass?

One of the main problems with captured fantasy heroines is that they sit there. The male character gets a spotlight thrown on him not only because the villain's fixated on him, but also because the female character isn't doing anything interesting.

I have done a rant on sexuality; it's in my memories, under "Limyaael's Fantasy Rants."

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]tainted4life, 2004-10-02 07:14 am UTC
Magnifico!
[info]clarafury
2004-09-29 08:27 pm UTC (link)
>>Must think about what rant to do next.

If you ever felt like writing one, I'd like to read a rant about character development. I'm particularly interested in expressing barriers to romantic love and crafting the "daily" flavour of life into the writing. Thanks for this!
clara

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Magnifico!
[info]limyaael
2004-10-01 07:24 am UTC (link)
I think it shall be the "daily flavour of life in the writing" one. Thank you for the suggestion.

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[info]youraugustine
2004-09-29 09:43 pm UTC (link)
1 - I actually get to have fun with this, and with the "OMG WE ARE REINCARNATED LUV3RSS" and the mindbond, with my Tristan and Iseult pair. Who seem to have chosen to call themselves Mikael and Elise this time around. Mwahahaha. Ahem.

2 - ::gleefully flips it around so that the lady is rescuing the gentleman::

::then makes it six bajillion times more complicated than that:: ::mwahahahha::

3 - Mmm, yes. Including the huge screaming fights that nearly end up with one or the other dead and whoever's left behind (usually her) wondering if the other is going to come back again, ever.

4 - I like to shatter the bubble fairly early on. Randomly, I doubt you read the Star Wars tie-ins, and I've lost track of them, but in the first book in the New Jedi Order series, the author [spoiler, hilite to see] kills Chewbacca, thus completely destroying the invulnerability bubble. It made the suspense of ensuing novels a thousand times more.

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(Anonymous)
2004-09-30 02:57 am UTC (link)
"OMG WE ARE REINCARNATED LUV3RSS" and the mindbond

<eg>
I once read a comic book (Camelot3000 it was, I seem to remember) where Tristan and Isolde (IIRC) were both reincarnated, true love and everything, as women. Made for some fun angsting on the side. (Not much, because it was a comic book and the four-colour-action had to go on, so it was fun instead of boring...)

inge

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]youraugustine, 2004-09-30 08:34 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2004-10-01 07:26 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]youraugustine, 2004-10-01 09:51 am UTC

[info]lemurkat
2004-09-29 09:52 pm UTC (link)
I think one of the most interesting relationships was in Jacqueline Carey's "Kushiel" trilogy. The main protragonist was a young lady, who was a masochist and trained more-or-less as a prostitute/spy, in a culture where the motto of their chosen God was "Love as thou wilt". The "love interest" was a warrior-priest, sworn to celibacy and sent to, rather reluctantly, be her bodyguard. Needless to say, the path to love is a very rocky one indeed, he despises her at first, more for what she stands for then whom she is, and it's only when they're driven together by tragedy and he is all but broken that things start to happen between them. I liked it because it is convincingly written romance, interweaved with politics and an awful lot of violence, action and grim realities, but anyhow, throughout te three books the two stay together, rather reluctantly and freuqently, having to come to compromises, which often end up hurting both parties.

I hate books that go for the "love at first sight" thing - it just makes me clench my teeth. Lust maybe, but not love. Love is something that must grow with time.

Also, it seems to be the cliche that if they hate each other initially, they're going to fall in love later. I must say I'm kinda guilty of that myself in one of my stories... but it is still quite interesting to watch two chars that initially resent each other for various reasons begin to realise that the other is more then they initially seem. As long as it's done over a convincing period of time and not*BAM* they're having sex then BAN they're somehow ALSO in love.

Love does not always equal sex, after all, just as Love can be completely platonic.

LemurKat

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[info]limyaael
2004-10-01 07:36 am UTC (link)
I've read the first two Kushiel books. I liked the romance between Phedre and Joscelin better in the first one, actually, since they didn't just fall into bed together. What happened to them in the second book came closer to traditional "Big Misunderstanding plot" than I liked.

I have the same problem with hate at first sight that I do with bickering. I've read very few authors that managed to convince me these people really liked each other. Be sexually attracted, yes. Have sex, yes. Irritate each other, OH yes. But would they actually fall in love? I don't know, but I can't imagine being in love with someone who irritated me like a dangling scab.

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[info]johnnymcbadass
2004-09-29 10:32 pm UTC (link)
Hey, great post again. :) Now to talk about ME! I never got your reply on my short story (even after you said you'd sent it a second time), but now I've finished the thing, so I could send it to you (after a quick polish of course).

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[info]limyaael
2004-10-01 07:36 am UTC (link)
*blink* I didn't send the comments again; I had a computer crash about a month after I finished looking at your story the last time, and it deleted my comments. Do send the story again, since I remember it was interesting.

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[info]alex_von_cercek
2004-09-30 04:06 am UTC (link)
Oh, Hod YES!

limyaael rocks the house yet again.

1. Oh, my...I hope I'm not doing this. I mean, I know I'm planning for them to fall in love. I don't think they're actually THAT incompatible, just...well, they both need to mellow out just a bit, and it'll be fine. *sweatdrop*

2. Whee! At least THIS is somehting I'm safe from. My female protagonist is 1. way too young to have children and 2. way more competent than the male protagonist. So he won't be doing much saving. Besides, I intend for them BOTH to get captured, and then she'll do something bloody and get his ass out of jail on the way.

3. Well, let's see...one is training to be a priest, the other is supposedly the Antichrist...yeah, I don't think it'll all be peachy.

4. Most of the WORLD is after her head. (see point 3) This is usually not a very healthy situation.

5. Eep...might be guilty here. Although the heroine hasn't been lying to OTHER people, she's been lying to herself. Okay, that doesn't sound any better. Sigh...and I was hoping I'd get off free...

[i]there’s abuse or an unequal relationship involved (very common in “evil” relationships that the author never meant to work out, very rare in actual supposedly loving romances.)[/i]WHEE! Heroine is 12, hero is 17.

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[info]limyaael
2004-10-01 07:37 am UTC (link)
5) Well, lying to herself might be interesting- though I would wonder how she knows who the "real her" is, then. It sounds like she might have to discover it along with her partner, instead of sighing that no one knows her and then showing it off to him.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]alex_von_cercek, 2004-10-01 03:39 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]onyxflame, 2006-02-28 05:50 pm UTC

[info]the_nic
2004-09-30 05:33 am UTC (link)
good gods, these rants are awesome.

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[info]limyaael
2004-10-01 07:38 am UTC (link)
Thank you. :)

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[info]klgaffney
2004-09-30 06:10 am UTC (link)
granted, i also find the whole "lover is concealing a deep dark secret" thing sorta annoying too, 'cause it's ungodly common in the traditional non-fantasy romances. *twitch* so i'm glad you made a point of mentioning the part where the secret is a)not small and petty, and b) they TALK about it. [don't ask me how i ended up writing what basically comes down to a weird epic fantasy romance when romance is my LEAST favorite genre in the world....]

otherwise? i adore you.

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[info]limyaael
2004-10-01 07:44 am UTC (link)
I don't mind secrets as long as they have a reason to stay secret. Too often the character tells the secret, and I'm like, "That's IT? And for that, you've endangered your true love and your life and the lives of other people?" Then the book gets put down. But yeah, a secret like being a traitor or having a terminal disease or being able to change into a giant scary lizard-monster and ravage a town is worth keeping; I just want to see the characters talk about it.

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(no subject) - [info]onyxflame, 2006-02-28 05:51 pm UTC

[info]zekk_skywalk
2004-09-30 06:32 am UTC (link)
Hm. Must stop reading you through a friend's lj. Must friend you. Then must go back, reread through plans/written portions of own novel(s) to see if own novel romances fall under these problems...

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[info]limyaael
2004-10-01 07:45 am UTC (link)
Hi. *friends you back*

Well, not all of them do. And I have read ones that used some of these clichés and made them work. Just not all at once.

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[info]tasllyn
2004-09-30 06:55 am UTC (link)
1) hear hear. as much as it's nice for two people to be in love, there are other types of relationships out there. and that's a trap in my writing i need to watch out for. i'm currently engaged to my first and only boyfriend, so i don't really have personal experience with the heartbreak and causal relationships. still, with the amount i read, it shouldn't be that hard to write them ^_^. it hasn't stopped anyone else, that's for sure.

2) hmmm..... last minute rescue... i'm actually not sure just how many times i've read this plotline...how about a twist where the heroine has to rescue the hero? or the hero tried to rescue the heroine when she really doesn't need his help? (ok, the best example i can think of for that is the first episode of slayers, with lina and gourry. of course, that IS a parody, for you serious fantasy writers, but still)

as far as the abusive/unequal loving relationship thing...that really is a new one. i get the feeling that a lot of authors would be afraid to write something like that and a lot of readers would be pissed off. i could just see the angry mob storming an author's house and screaming "Free 'random heroine/hero name'! Give 'em a better woman/man!"

6) i actually have one comment in regards to this. sailor moon. especially in the new live action version. although there is a twist. and if anyone on here is actually watching the series and doesn't know what happens in episode 48, don't read this next part: the twist is, that while usagi and mamoru are together to kill the villain, it's really mamoru's spirit and the villain they're trying to kill is mamoru, who's been possessed by the evil queen metaria(now there's a cliche villain if i've ever seen one-metaria, not mamoru). but it is a bit of a twist on the whole "i love you. let's kill the dark lord now" thing.

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[info]limyaael
2004-10-01 07:49 am UTC (link)
The abusive/unequal relationship thing could WORK, I think, as long as the writer doesn't present it the way it's done in one of the "evil" ones: "Oh, boo-hoo, he hits her, she's sad, what she really needs is the hero." Those relationships often don't work because the abused character is often a martyr-type personality, with NO OTHER REASON to stay with the abuser, and fine once she gets away from him and falls in love with someone else. I'd like to see some of the lingering effects. Or I'd like to see an unequal relationship- say, master/servant- where the unequal party can't leave, and what happens then.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]criada, 2004-10-01 08:55 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]onyxflame, 2006-02-28 05:58 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]dreamsnake21, 2006-05-17 03:29 pm UTC

[info]sythyry
2004-09-30 10:37 am UTC (link)
This one I am going to print and stare at at length, since A Marriage of Insects is a love story.

1. Not sure -- Rajel's adventuring partner is a Sleeth, feared and somewhat despised by most people (for some very good reasons which Arrhwy certainly exhibits). The other two are pretty nervous or unhappy about that from time to time, but ... enough?

2. Not sure.

3. Not sure. The antagonist's motive is fairly noble, but the protagonists ... are just trying to go on vacation and try to fall in love.

4. Safe! I never, never use prophecies!

5. Safe. My protagonists are very very aware of each others' flaws. There's the other love relation, the antagonist's, which which the antagonist quite deliberately hides crucial matters from her lover.

6. Not sure. The protagonists' flaws don't go away, I think, but the protagonists agree to deal with them.

(Reply to this)


[info]napthia9
2004-09-30 12:40 pm UTC (link)
This was timed perfectly; I've been thinking about this for a while now, because recently I went to the library, and borrowed a book called "How To Write Romance".

... I would be doing the world a great service if I burned it. But I can't! *sob* Unlike your excellent advice, this book went on and on at great length about how a romance novel needs to show character development, but it also said that any character flaws should be easily fixed by the ending. No. Just no.

"...The pattern of many fantasy romances is to start out with the couple bickering and hating each other, until they have their epiphany (usually built on sexual lust or that completely unconvincing bolt from the blue that “they’ve loved each other all along!”) After that, everything is fine. The bickering is always affectionate, they might get angry but they apologize at once, their magic combines and saves the day, they defeat the Dark Lord because they are in love—please to look at point 6—etc.

Oh, please..."

In this paragraph alone, I have learned more than in that entire book. And your post was fantasy-specific too! Ah, man, what a dumb book...

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[info]limyaael
2004-10-01 07:50 am UTC (link)
I'm very flattered! All of this is very personal to me (that is, it's aimed at producing the kind of fantasy that's different from what I'm tired of), so I'm always glad if it really helps other people.

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[Marumae under my other penname here]
[info]jasper_calls
2004-09-30 03:14 pm UTC (link)
Excellent rant m'dear, very hand to one who wants to make sure when they do romance for the first time they do it reasonably right.

give up the notion that they must be in love because it’s destiny, and so on.

I would like to see a story two people end up together because destiny says they belong together and they and concieve the speschul child and really, they don't love each other at all and would much prefer to be with other people, but are stuck that way because destiny stubbornly proclaims them to be. I'd like to see it done in a way that is NOT parody.

UGH, no 5 is one that I'm guilty of planning to do (I've never gotten far enough in any story to have anyone fall in love). I personally like the "real me" concept, but I'd like to see it done with more then one person and that person not always be the one who you want to understand you.

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[info]lnhammer
2004-09-30 04:03 pm UTC (link)
I do tend to prefer fantasy romances written by Romance writers. Not that that genre doesn't fall into its own cliche tropes, but at least those are geared towards a well-described relationship, rather than a high fantasy adventure.

---L.

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[info]limyaael
2004-10-01 07:51 am UTC (link)
I'm wary of those novels if the romance writer seems to be one who's decided, "Why, fantasy is nothing more than dragons and castles! I'll cobble together a few weird-sounding names and be fine!" Their relationships might be good, but if I'm laughing myself to death at the fantasy world, I can't get that far.

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[info]sabotabby
2004-09-30 04:05 pm UTC (link)
Lovely rant, as always. I loathe shoddily done romance -- I'd prefer to see none at all. I think that comes out in my stories, too -- one takes place after the central couple has been broken up for five years, and despite still being madly in love with each other, are vastly different people than when they were together. Another one I'm working on does have the love-conquers-all type thing going on, but it ends badly for everyone.

Maybe it's just my own trainwreck of a love life speaking here, but my favourite fictional romances are always the severely dysfunctional ones. They're just more interesting.

Have you ever done a rant about exposition or the "council scene"? Comes to mind because a manuscript I was evaluating at work had dialogue along the lines of "As you know, blah blah blah" every few pages.

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[info]limyaael
2004-10-01 07:51 am UTC (link)
Not about exposition as such, but rants on backstory and info-dumping (in the memories). The Council scene one is a good idea, though, since I use those so often myself. Thank you!

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[info]criada
2004-09-30 07:41 pm UTC (link)
I think an important point to mention about writing romances is to let the characters fall in love on their own. I usually hate stories intended to be love stories, because inevitably the characters aren't allowed to develop on their own. People seem to look at their stories, and evaluate who could hook up with who, and make it so, or bring in someone for them from the great beyond. I know I've done this. I had two girls in one story, and I thought, "hmmm.. they're getting to that age, they need boyfriends." Fortunately, I never went through with it, and my characters were allowed to keep their own personalities. One, I'm pretty sure has sex, she just never tells anyone. I don't know who with, she has platonic relationships with all the other men in the story. But she's definitely not a virgin.
Where are all those happy platonic relationships anyway?

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[info]limyaael
2004-10-01 07:52 am UTC (link)
Exactly. The author seems to warp the characters sometimes to make them grow closer together, or transparently manipulates the plot to make it happen, and then I want to bite someone. If the romance doesn't feel like a part of the plot and the setting and the people involved, what's the point of having it in the story?

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(no subject) - [info]onyxflame, 2006-02-28 06:06 pm UTC

[info]deemasx
2004-10-01 10:04 pm UTC (link)
and for the first time in ages, I am compelled to answer...

I can proudly proclaim of being not guilty in any way, even if the stories in my head made from one to two now, the supposed high fantasy long one, with a couple of female and suffering half-elf, and a new one, a vampire story which chapters will be inspired by "avril-lavigne"-song-titles, which will be less about love than "falling in love" and lust. yes, I can freely admit, I woulkdnever make it that easy for anyone, for that, I have too much experience in the real world...

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[info]yo_san
2004-10-02 08:27 am UTC (link)
After reading point 2, I now am itching to write something where the heroine saves someone male who she detests and then have the male refuse to be saved by her, so she is forced to knock him out and drag him away.

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[info]koh4711
2004-11-12 03:40 am UTC (link)
Hmmm... really glad I decided to browse a bit more, because this hits on a major problem I'm having in my book. I'm half scared, because I feel like a good portion of what I've done thus far falls into the "do not" side of the ledger, and it's making me think about the shift of my female lead over the last few chapters. While I always felt her background set her up a certain way, it seems she's pulling in a different direction than I expected, and it's changing the nature of the relationship... and it might just be the key to avoiding those cliches. So, I suppose the point of all this is to say, thanks for helping me sort things out... I'll definately be friending to keep an eye on what you post, because it's extremely helpful.

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[info]xanath
2004-12-29 05:23 am UTC (link)
Excellent post. :D I can't say more; everyone's done a much better job.

--Kris

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[info]onyxflame
2006-02-28 05:35 pm UTC (link)
Fantasy authors overuse this dreadfully, and at this point it’s one of those plotlines where you can predict almost every trope, down to the rats and straw in the dungeons and the rescuer charging in just as the prisoner is about to be raped/sacrificed/killed.

I admit to having a rescue scene. But it's not quiiite what you'd expect.

First off there's no rats and straw. The "dungeons" are actually pretty nice places, with magical flushing toilets and all that. (Which is becoming a cliche in itself, probably.) I have pretty stupid secret passages in all the cells though, which the mages have absolutely no problem using to visit the prisoners who aren't expected to be *virgin* sacrifices. (I suspect the Arcanum's palace must've been built by a rather big lech.) Anyway, stupidity aside, Reva not only escapes her cell by herself, but rescues another prisoner while she's at it. And then Z comes crashing in with his ragtag band of weirdo vampires. Which actually turns out to be rather helpful, but not quite in the way he'd expected.

Retaining conflict in the romance gives you another source of discomfort/pain/intrigue to explore. Done right, every problem solved will bring up another problem to deal with, and every compromise can’t be permanent, and there may be long-lasting, nagging little things that will never go away.

Well let's see. First off, even if Reva could get past the embarrassment and admit that she has the hots for Z, he wouldn't let anything happen (and by this I don't mean "wouldn't let anything happen until the next time he gets really really drunk" - he's a vampire for Pete's sake, if he doesn't know how to control himself by now he never will) because there's no way it's gonna work out with a mortal, and he's not about to bite her and make her put up with all the anti-vampire prejudice too.

You might think this problem would be solved once she gets stuck being a god. No such luck though. You see, she can't tell anyone about it. Even him.

The people in the romance remain people, not transformed, as they too often are, into perfect shining idols that the reader is fit only to grovel before.

I can see this happening easily in stuff teenagers write, because no matter how much they think they know about love, I've never seen one of them be right yet. They don't realize that just because they think their beloved is perfect, doesn't mean he/she actually is. And they don't seem to know that sometimes, no matter what you do, love isn't enough.

Love can be part of the solution, but I think it’s better to have the lovers trusting each other enough to make hard decisions, to follow each other into battle when no one else can (something I find much more interesting than the dramatic rescue), and to let go if necessary.

There's a part where Z is incapacitated due to almost being fried to death, and Reva has to defeat the bandit leader herself. She tortures him mentally a bit, and refuses to let herself show compassion for him even though he's a pretty pathetic little guy. Compassion would sorta ruin their plans, not to mention their chances of staying alive. And Z hates that he's incapable of doing the unpleasant stuff for her, because he knows what it's like and what it's capable of turning you into if you let it.

There's all kinds of hard stuff in the world, and most of it's a lot harder than worrying if you'll be able to get in someone's pants.

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Need some help....
[info]kalinda_99
2006-11-14 06:04 am UTC (link)
I'm surprised I'm doing this but.. I need some help.. and I really like your rants, they're quite helpful. I'm done draft 1 of my fantasy novel, which I hope to get published someday.. if I ever finish the editing..

Anyhow, I've got two romantic subplots, the more minor one is already just fine.. but.. the major one is between (gasp!) the story's central villains. And they (double gasp!) don't stab each in the back at the end or during; they actually love each other.. for true... but at the same time they're both jerks.. and thy admire each other's cruelty. I've had them for a while.. and probably spent a little more time on them then everyone else. The "evil love" plot element is something I utterly adore, but it is used so little.

However, I now have a problem; the relationship between these two ppl consists of quite a bit of sex and physical stuff, along with hobbies unrelated to their evil plan.. but.. it has no conflict, no drama. Because they're too busy being villains for me to include that without seriously disrupting the story... and they already have a long-standing relationship... so unless I do something that builds itself up and then ends with them talking it out - and I can't think of anything - then it won't work; having them get into an argument and temporarily leave each other really messes stuff up... and the reader might just yell at me to get on with the plot. Is that okay? Does there need to be conflict, or can it be negated because of the role they play?

Obviously their relationship isn't/wasn't totally perfect.. and, well, they are villains.. so you can probably guess what happens to them.. and they have tragic backstories (or I hope they're tragic) and motivations and all that lovely stuff.. but throughout the story itself, they don't have any relationship-related troubles.

Perhaps I am reading too much into it, though... you can read it, if you like; maybe I'm missing possible conflict.. or got it all wrong. Who knows ^__^

Thanks!

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[info]serraduchi
2007-07-14 01:39 pm UTC (link)
Way late, but:

"The hero might as well have a checklist:

-Bicker with pretty girl.
-Snatch glimpses of her bathing.
-Angst about defeating the Dark Lord.
-Fall in love/have sex.
-Defeat Dark Lord."

...bwaHAHAHAHAHA. You win several intarnets.

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