Limyaael ([info]limyaael) wrote,
@ 2004-10-01 21:46:00
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Current mood: determined
Entry tags:fantasy rants: autumn 2004, gender rants, idea rants, pay attention to: class, pay attention to: race, rants on nonhumans

Writing different characters (part one)
Right. Before I start this off, I want to quote my favorite author, Guy Gavriel Kay, because he says the core principle of what I’m trying to explain here more clearly (and in fewer words) than I can:

“'As for the female psyche, I used to be flattered when people said I did convincing female characters, but lately I confess it bemuses me. The implied idea underlying the comment is that it is startling that a man can do plausible women characters. If you push this just a bit, you have to ask how any woman could do a convincing man, how any young writer could do a geriatric, how any of us could do someone not...ourselves. Creating characters is, in a large way, an act of imaginative empathy, and I'm resistant to the idea that there are absolute borders to that. In the end, I'd say that we're really talking about good or bad writing, rather than male and female, or young and old.'

-The quote is from this interview on Kay’s official website, Bright Weavings.



Aside from alternative history, urban fantasy, and historical fantasies clearly based on something that happened in our world’s history, fantasy is free in theory to create new categories: new relations of races, new skin colors, new species, new gender relations (and new genders altogether if it wants), new sexualities, new classes, new religions, animals represented as human or animal/human hybrids, sentient plants, and on without end. I do think it’s the freest genre in this regard. Even science fiction novels, which can come up with some pretty creative aliens, still need to invest in representing how these aliens are physically possible and a scientific explanation of any abilities they have. With a fantasy world and magic, the need for sheer explanation as explanation is less, and the ability to investigate the societies and portray the relations between different groups greater.

Yet in practice, an awful lot of fantasy novels set in other worlds have primarily white characters, humans, practicing Christian- or Wiccan-based religions. The intelligent animals that appear are usually restricted to the status of loving, supportive, telepathic sidekicks for angsty teenagers. The characters’ concerns and values are remarkably twenty-first century, and few of them are other than heterosexual; the peasants who appear almost always become high-class or turn out to have been royals all along.

So, since “why” is either a question with too many obvious answers or a question too broad to be answered at all, I’m asking instead: what are some ways to change that?

1) Think twice about making white the default skin color. I am trying, and failing, to remember a fantasy book I read that accepted any color other than white as the default color and described, say, someone tanned with blond hair and brown eyes as “an oddly pale person with blond hair and brown eyes.” However, there are plenty where characters with “black,” “brown,” “red,” “coppery,” “tawny,” “olive,” “yellow,” or “sallow” skin get their skin color described first, even before the hair and eye colors decorated with half a million adjectives. In most fantasy novels (most of my own included), these characters are the outsiders, even if they come from a culture fairly near at hand or have been known to the white characters for years. The author feels the need to emphasize their color and have the white characters stare at them.

I suppose it’s possible this happens because a lot of fantasy authors are white. But still, say you’re writing an other-world fantasy. You don’t have to replicate any of the race relations that take place in our world. Why take up a white society without thought, or create all the humans in the story to be white? Quite aside from perpetuating stereotypes that reflect badly on the work, which I would say not all books do, it sharply limits some of fantasy’s creative potential.

Hah, humans I say. Even the most common fantasy non-human species (elves, dwarves, gnomes, whatever kind of halfling race the author adopts, fairies, and so on) are usually white in skin color. The ones that are most often different, say yellow or gray, are goblins or orcs, and those are bad guys.

There’s always the danger, of course, that writing a character of a different race could be done offensively or ineptly (another reason I think many writers don’t do it). But think about it. For example, if there’s a society that lives in a world totally unlike Earth, that’s, oh, mostly made of elemental fire, are they necessarily going to be white? Or might they be colored like the flames? The most common flames are actually orange, instead of red.

2) Simple reversal of genders sets up traps. Anyone who’s read a “feminist fantasy” that turns into a message fantasy instead knows this. Just put women on top, go the worst of these books, and everything will be fine. Women are inherently peaceful, so there won’t be any more war. Women are closer to nature, so their rule is good for the environment. Women bear children, so they’re more in touch with “life” (authors rarely define exactly what they mean by this). Women are inherently spiritual (something which makes this atheist woman laugh very hard), so their rule improves society altogether.

Go this way, and it’s virtually impossible to keep from either replicating a society that’s just as oppressive the other way around, or too perfect and pastel to be real—usually the latter. The very reason utopist fantasy is so hard to write is that not a whole hell of a lot of conflict happens in a perfect society. The author has to bring in outside threats instead, usually headed by those nasty patriarchs, and before long you have the traditional Light vs. Dark, Good vs. Evil contest, this time with the added idea that the “right” gender along with the “right” morality is going to win.

Don’t look at me. I have no idea why authors prefer this simplistic stupidity.

Complicate the reversal. Hell, complicate the relationships between genders. Women might be half-free, able to do some things that would be considered “unfeminine” in a medieval society but not yet the equals of men (which is a lot like the case today, really). Women and men might both hold well-defined social roles that are more equal but no less strict than our own older ideas. There might be more subtle controls on either or both genders than we have now. There might be a third sex, or a fourth sex, or people who have characteristics of both sexes at different times in their lives, or sex-shifters. There might be reproduction by a means other than pregnancy. Why not?

The question “Why not?” doesn’t get asked often enough of gender-change, I think.

3) Try presenting nonhumans in some other fashion than as sidekicks or exoticized, dying flowers. Oftentimes when a typical elf shows up in fantasy, I groan, because I know at least one of these is going to happen:

a) The elf will become the token representative of his race in the rag-tag band trying to save the world.
b) The elf will be one of a number of elves (usually) who exemplify a mysterious, dying, often very Zen-like culture that the human heroes get to gape at for a little while, shed a tear or two over, and then depart.

Sometimes both happen at once.

Once again, there is so much stripping of creative potential that goes along with this. What is the elf in the party thinking? What would the elf culture look like from inside? We don’t know, because an elf viewpoint isn’t the book’s point; it’s to show off the human heroes. A few rants back, I talked about the dangers of stories that are too hero-centered. This is yet another of them. Even when the author manages to infuse the secondary human characters with verve and energy, the non-humans often get turned into stock stereotypes.

Those stereotypes aren’t necessarily negative, of course, but being as pastel as the perfect matriarchal society is no better. Elves who hug trees, won’t kill, don’t remarry, and would never, ever abuse their children are usually shown as having lacks of things that characterize the human societies, not positive attributes of their own. The same thing happens with dwarves, who usually lack warm family homes and any kind of restraint on violence. They’re only mirrors to human societies, and even if the author has her characters lament that the elves are dying or that it’s so, so horrible, what the humans did to them, the focus comes straight back to the single species that makes up the book’s core.

Try conceiving of non-humans, and their societies, as independent entities. Their fates may very well be connected to what the protagonists do or say, but they don’t have to be only a reflection of what the humans really wish they were like or not like. And they don’t have to be reflections of what has come before in fantasy, either. Dig back to the older legends if you want, but also twist them around so that your elves really never have walked the earth before.

And, always, I think it’s fine to invent completely new non-humans and write stories from their viewpoints. It changes the purpose of having them in the book from wide-eyed exploration or worship to having other people out there, other gazes returned, and makes things so much more complicated, and conflicted, and fun to write.

4) Mess about with class relationships. There seem to be (well, at least) two stereotypes for high, low, and middle classes in most fantasies. It depends on whether the characters are the heroes/are sympathetic to the heroes, or are enemies to be despised.

-Good high-class people (usually nobles and royals) are gracious, noble, witty, inherently good, usually possessed of great magical power and the focus of prophecies if they’re the heroes, and can save the world without batting an eye. They’re also completely open-minded about things like class—while also ruling over peasants and collecting taxes, but never mind, as many fantasy authors seem to say. Bad high-class people are usually fops, have pimples, are too fond of decoration and money, are ambitious to claim places that can’t be theirs, and hate the noble or royal hero for being different.

-Good peasants are honest, hard-working, clean, inherently moral, can do lots of clever things with their hands, somehow got educated like nobles despite everything in their paths, are often the focus of prophecies and have powerful magic, and can save the world without batting an eye. They also usually have royal blood somewhere in the background, which is another “never mind, move along, nothing to see here!” bit of hand-waving. Bad peasants are mean, dirty, deceptive, act as bullies to the cowering terrified peasant heroes and heroines, want their children to be “real” ladies/men, are close-minded and suspicious, and are there for the hero to beat up or lord over.

-Good merchants are shrewd, part of the “resistance” or spy networks for the right people, treat their workers well, and really deserve the money they have. Bad merchants are fat, greedy, wear gold chains, have thick fingers, like to rape people (especially children), and are there mainly to make life a little bit more difficult for the protagonists.

I bet you can think of half a dozen class systems better than this one without trying. Furthermore, I bet you can think of worlds with merchants, nobles, and peasants where the characters could actually be people, not stereotypes, or have social mobility, or rebel and run away, or revolutionize and topple the society.

Those worlds and class systems rarely show up in fantasy, though. And when they do, they’re often foils for the main society again—like the peaceful tribal society with a barter economy that mainly exists to give the hero an opportunity to moralize.

This one seems to be the simple product of a rut. People write pseudo-medieval fantasy that depicts the classes in this way, and every author who follows in that direction draws more and more heavily on stereotypes, rather than research about true medieval societies or other ways of living. Characters get defined not by class but by pseudo-class.

Ask yourself which system best fits your world. Your world, not Fantasy Clone World #4862564. And if you do choose merchants, peasants, and nobles acting out their stereotypical, “destined” class roles, have a really good reason for it. And tell me that reason, please? I can’t think of one.



This would be way too long if I tried to do everything at once. There’s another one coming up instead.




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[info]youraugustine
2004-10-01 06:58 pm UTC (link)
1. However. While doing this, please think of the REASONS various breeds of human have the skincolours we do. Do NOT have a white-skinned desert people. Likewise, do NOT have a black-skinned forest people. The latter would die of sunstroke and infected sunburns; the former would die of vitamin D depletion. There are reasons we have the skin-tones that we do, evolutionarily speaking.

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[info]limyaael
2004-10-01 07:06 pm UTC (link)
Did you mean "former" and "latter" in each other's places, there? It seems as if it would make more sense.

And yes, skin colors like that can make a difference, but only if it actually IS a fantasy set in either of those places. In other climates, or in fantasies where things like teleportation and magical gates are common, there could easily be a mix of people of different colors. Except that there isn't, most of the time. *grumble*

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(no subject) - [info]youraugustine, 2004-10-01 07:08 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]eisoj5, 2004-10-01 07:09 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2004-10-01 07:16 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]eisoj5, 2004-10-01 07:45 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2004-10-01 07:50 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]eisoj5, 2004-10-01 07:55 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]xianghua, 2004-10-02 12:16 am UTC
Ahh the tanned, so golden brown and delicious... Just like English Muffins... mmm, english muffins. - [info]the_nic, 2004-10-02 01:37 am UTC
Re: Ahh the tanned, so golden brown and delicious... Just like English Muffins... mmm, english muffi - [info]limyaael, 2004-10-02 07:14 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]catfish42, 2004-10-02 01:57 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]syphilis_jane, 2004-10-03 11:35 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]undeadgoat, 2004-10-04 06:54 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]youraugustine, 2004-10-04 07:18 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]undeadgoat, 2004-10-04 07:50 pm UTC

[info]ahayweh
2004-10-01 07:12 pm UTC (link)
I'd really like to see some racial variation among the nonhuman species. Often it seems like the humans are split up into this country's people and that country's people and the desert nomads and the dark-skinned people from the Jungle of Nazharadla, and then there's the elves. Who are apparently still one big, nondivergent society. Elves in the protagonist's homeland are exactly the same as the band of elves they meet halfway across the world in the middle of a swamp. Just once I'd like to hear about an 'elven war' that, instead of elves against humans, was elves against more elves- but I suppose they're too pure and special to ever fight, after all.

Tolkien, yet again, put some actual thought into this, and realized that as the elves split up to carve out cities in cliffs, try to take over humongous swamps, sail back to Valinor, or marry Maiar and hide their entire realm in a magic shieldy thing, they were going to start diverging. Legolas and Galadriel weren't automatically bestest friends because they both had pointy ears. I don't think it even occurrs to a lot of people to consider cultural divergence.

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[info]limyaael
2004-10-01 07:18 pm UTC (link)
I've read about a few elven wars, but they're usually restricted to the Seelie vs. Unseelie thing, and of course the Unseelie are not 'real' elves, not being, as you said, pure and special. Simple geographical distance and time could make a difference even to elves, I would think- ten thousand years, say, would be a lot of time for elves who lived only a few centuries- but they don't. *is puzzled*

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(no subject) - [info]dnwq, 2004-10-01 10:53 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2004-10-02 07:16 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]maureenlycaon, 2004-10-02 08:19 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]maureenlycaon, 2004-10-02 08:17 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2004-10-02 10:23 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]lawnnun, 2005-09-12 03:51 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]onyxflame, 2006-02-28 06:34 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ahayweh, 2006-03-06 04:06 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]galenfea, 2007-10-19 09:59 pm UTC

[info]mhari
2004-10-01 07:35 pm UTC (link)
I am trying, and failing, to remember a fantasy book I read that accepted any color other than white as the default color

Earthsea.

In fact, Le Guin has been heard to bitch about cover illustrations that depict the hero in typical blond blue-eyed heroic mode. ;)

There's also Octavia Butler, although what I've read of her is set in more or less contemporary Earth, so while the characters in those books tend to default to black, there's still all the RL baggage attached.

Oh, and in the Darkangel trilogy by Meredith Ann Pierce, there are not only black and white but blue and pink and green people. :)

There’s always the danger, of course, that writing a character of a different race could be done offensively or ineptly (another reason I think many writers don’t do it).

Which is silly, really, unless you're writing urban/modern/pick your descriptor fantasy. Because in a completely made-up world, the cultures you invent don't have to bear any relationship to the cultures here that they physically resemble.

I still haven't done much with my single, solitary Latino character because I am little and pasty white and middle-class and paranoid. ;) But I've written all kinds of fantasy characters who look almost exactly like him and have assorted different personalities and such, and it doesn't worry me because I'm making up their backgrounds out of whole cloth and I'm allowed to. That's the point.

...do I make any sense?

I dunno. I just think it's silly of people to go and deliberately set up a world in which things are hugely different than here and now, and then turn around and wibble about issues that they've established don't exist there. o_O (I also think it's silly of readers to do same, but I think readers don't worry so much if writers aren't self-conscious... okay. Shutting up now before I grow completely incoherent.)

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[info]limyaael
2004-10-01 07:45 pm UTC (link)
Ah, Earthsea, yes. I'd forgotten. I think that since she did have both white and brown people in her story, and when I read the first Earthsea books I was a teenager and the epitome of not-noticingness about race in books, I didn't remember it.

Octavia Butler does write what I would call more "near-future science fiction" than fantasy (though I've only read one of hers, Parable of the Sower) so I was excluding her from the other-world definition.

Which is silly, really, unless you're writing urban/modern/pick your descriptor fantasy. Because in a completely made-up world, the cultures you invent don't have to bear any relationship to the cultures here that they physically resemble.

I tend to think the same way, but... it's kind of like the issue of sexuality in some fantasy books, where the authors replicate the stereotypes of gay men and lesbians to a T even though it's supposed to be in a different world. The same thing could happen with a fantasy that was supposed to be about different races, and, rightly or wrongly, most people think it would more likely happen with a white author. At the least, I think it's a good thing to be aware of.

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(no subject) - [info]mhari, 2004-10-01 08:24 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2004-10-01 08:33 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]billradish, 2004-10-01 09:18 pm UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2004-10-02 11:43 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]wolfychan, 2004-10-01 10:46 pm UTC

[info]billradish
2004-10-01 07:36 pm UTC (link)
Sometimes? Your rants really do read like a checklist of everything I'm doing right. *g* And on this one, mostly points I hadn't considered as particularly unusual.

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[info]limyaael
2004-10-01 07:47 pm UTC (link)
Well, good then. *grin*

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ALSO
[info]mhari
2004-10-01 07:38 pm UTC (link)
Mess about with class relationships.

So true. <3

I mean, to a certain extent the stereotypes make sense, because people raised in a certain way are likely to have the same preconceptions, good and bad habits, etc. But only up to a point. Really I think it's just another way writers can get lazy.

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Re: ALSO
[info]limyaael
2004-10-01 07:48 pm UTC (link)
It's more the division of them into "good" or "bad" based on their relationship to the hero that gets me. And the depictions are remarkably the same from book to book (it's hard to tell bad nobles in Eddings from bad nobles in Jordan, except that Jordan does talk more about breasts). They could stand some shaking up.

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[info]traffic_cone
2004-10-01 07:51 pm UTC (link)
I am suddenly reminded of this book I read (and have completely forgotten the title and author of, sadly) where the main premise was that somehow New Zealand and Great Britain had up and switched places at some point, taking the people with them. There were a grand total of two white people in the whole book, and everyone thought they were weird (including each other).

Now I wish I could remember what it was called. :(

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[info]traffic_cone
2004-10-01 08:11 pm UTC (link)
And as mentioning this has just reminded me, I'm a little irritated sometimes by the preponderance of northern-hemisphere settings in fantasy, no matter how unearthly the world. (Yes, I realise this is like whinging about how many Christmas carols have snow in them, and yes, I do that too.)
It's not so much just having the setting somewhere where it's colder the further north you go and warmer further south -- I can accept that. I have an imagination. It's more the fact that sometimes it's just assumed that the mere mention of the geographical direction will have the reader conjure up the appropriate climate conditions, and that always messes with my head.

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(no subject) - [info]the_nic, 2004-10-02 01:25 am UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2004-10-02 11:44 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]undeadgoat, 2004-10-04 07:22 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]undeadgoat, 2004-10-04 07:46 pm UTC

[info]sabotabby
2004-10-01 09:50 pm UTC (link)
I think I do the first one pretty well. With the exception of the novel I co-wrote, which is set in modern day Seattle among urban professional types, I probably have more characters who are people of colour than are white. I try to be representational -- the one set in a future Toronto is multicultural as anything, the one set in the Middle East having mainly Middle Eastern characters, etc. The one set in a completely made-up universe assumes that people are not naturally divided by skin colour. (Although a side-effect of magic use is to strip out people's melanin, so the magical folks end up albino with no shortage of health problems.)

As someone mentioned above, Ursula K. LeGuin rocks at all of these -- probably because she's a philosophical and political theorist as much as she is a writer. Just one of the many reasons why I love her to bits.

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[info]limyaael
2004-10-02 07:18 am UTC (link)
LeGuin's Earthsea novels are so quiet that I think it's one of the reasons I wasn't remembering them. She doesn't trumpet the differences of what she's doing to the skies (other than, arguably, the increased presence of women in Tehanu, The Other Wind, and Tales from Earthsea). The way she plots is different, too.

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[info]criada
2004-10-01 10:47 pm UTC (link)
>>Women bear children, so they’re more in touch with “life” (authors rarely define exactly what they mean by this).<<

Heh, I have a necromancer who follows the Holy Mother (the religious system being set up around the Holy Father, Mother and Child, who can be worshipped in whatever combination is desired.) She believes in respecting the "natural processes of birth and death" and therefore refuses to raise people from the dead, even though it lies within her power. However, she has no problem with reanimating bodies into a zombie army to ravage the neighboring countryside for her king.

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[info]limyaael
2004-10-02 07:19 am UTC (link)
There are some authors who I think try to connect women to death like this (the Devouring Mother), but I have yet to see a female main character who does what you describe, or regularly kills children- though male characters are often depicted doing that- or seems to embrace death as a counterpoint to life. The Wiccan-like characters often are great healers and don't want anything to die, not even the animals that other animals eat. It's odd.

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[info]arabel
2004-10-02 03:19 am UTC (link)
I think the reason that people have been known to comment on "good" female characters in fantasy novels is that until reasonably recently, it was a surprise to come across one. The large majority of females before that were often horrible depthless stereotypes and so forth...as I'm sure you'd know.

*shrug*

So I suppoe yes, I definitely agree with Guy about it being a matter of good writing, it's just that that one element is has been known to be more conspicuous than others as a female reader. ^_^

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[info]limyaael
2004-10-02 07:21 am UTC (link)
I don't think Kay was really taking issue with people saying his female characters were good- just that he got praised so often for them that he started feeling as though people thought, "Wow, he's a man! And yet he can write good women! That's so unusual!"

The large majority of females before that were often horrible depthless stereotypes and so forth...as I'm sure you'd know.

I do know. Some of the older fantasy stuff is laughable in how it portrays women. I just mourn that the "corrective" to that draws so often on another set of depthless stereotypes, which aren't that much better for being a different set.

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(no subject) - [info]arabel, 2004-10-05 05:37 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]onyxflame, 2006-02-28 06:51 pm UTC

[info]rawles
2004-10-02 03:57 am UTC (link)
1) Think twice about making white the default skin color.

In my main work in progress the default skin color of the nationalities featured is brown. Well actually ranging from caramel to mocha, to be more specific. One country has shorter people who tend to generally be bronze-ish in skin color and hair color. Another tends to have darker hair colors (auburn, dark reds, dark browns, and black) and they also have slightly angular eyes. Then both country's cultures are a melding of a dash of Chinese culture and a bunch of stuff I made up. And...well, it goes on in that manner. I always think of a specific way that the people of each country look and it's generally a mixture of traits found in real life and some that are come as a result of their enviroment. I do the same for my fantastical races as well.

Of course, as a person of color I think it my be my default to strive for more diverse appearances among my characters.

So, maybe, for me it should be attempting to write something where white-skinned people actually are the defualt. Heh.

3) Try presenting nonhumans in some other fashion than as sidekicks or exoticized, dying flowers.

I have a race called the Niagía (who, most people, much to my chagrin will probably identify automatically as elves just because they have a connection to the "magic" of this particular world *sigh*) who are hale, hearty and whose population greatly outnumbers that of the humans of the piece. They don't end up as sidekicks however because they don't generally appear in the pieces that I write about the humans, because when I want to write about them I write about them on their own, normally completely seperate from the humans since they have their own society and issues and things to worry about that don't involve that other race over yonder.

4) Mess about with class relationships.

I'll just say that I agree with you wholeheartedly here and leave it at that, because if I were to go into all the things on this subject that annoy me and all the ways that I deliberately try to circumvent them in my writing I'd be here all day.

Though I do want to mention one novel of mine wherein the protagonists are a family of very rich merchants. They're all to some degree or another greedy, conniving, elitist, and very much intent on putting their wealth on display. A flaw (well, I suppose whether or not it's considered a flaw would depend on who you asked) in the original makeup of their society pretty much made it so that over the years they were able to amass enough wealth to attempt to make their way into the upper-echelon of the society with the nobility, who, of course, don't want them because they're lowborn, but eventually aren't going to have much of a choice because the merchants have the assets that the nobility in that part of the country need. And, long story short, a few generations down the line in that country the monarchy, and its accompanying ideas of aristocracy, is going to be overthrown and replaced with a capitalist republic.

As regards another cliche, there're also arranged marriages, one of which is entered into happily since it is the society's norm after all (Didn't you do a rant on "medieval" heroines with 21st century values? I know that every time I think of that whole cliche where the freespirited!girl doesn't want her arranged marriage even though that's how her society works (!) I have horrible flashbacks to the hundered pages or so of Sara Douglass's horrible, brain-breaking Wayfarer Redemption that I suffered through). The bride of the other runs off because she's a spoiled, selfish brat who wants adventure and her long-suffering fiance has to go and bring her back. Though, I think with that plotline that I may be treading a little too close to parodizing novels where the freespirited!girl would be the heroine...

Of course, I haven't exactly written all of this yet and as such no tone has been set so that might fit right in. Who knows?

And I've successfully gone on forever. Perhaps I should make use of my own writing journal for this sort of thing?

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[info]limyaael
2004-10-02 07:25 am UTC (link)
So, maybe, for me it should be attempting to write something where white-skinned people actually are the defualt. Heh.

*grin* I don't know if anyone actually has an obligation to do that. I just wish people would think about it more. When the fantasy world has, say, 10 cultures scattered across the face of a global world, linked together by telepathy and magical gating, and yet all of them are white, it puzzles me. Where did these humans originate? Did the cultures all over the world actually spread out from a single source? It's not said.

I think I'd be less tempted to associate your Niagía with elves since they have such a different name. Most elf replacements have "el-" at the beginning. That's why, much as I wound up enjoying Carol Berg's Song of the Beast, I really wish she hadn't called her genderless, long-lived, small race the Elhim, because I wound up thinking of them as elves even though they emphatically weren't.

Ah yes, arranged marriages. I did bring up heroines like that, but was told that marrying for love was a timeless ideal and it would be across all cultures. Uh... since one? And even if it is, I want to know where that heroine learned it, and why no one else has apparently heard of it, or thinks that it's silly that she wants to marry for love.

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[info]marumae
2004-10-02 08:16 am UTC (link)
Good rant love, especially the one about race. I thought you covered it well, by being honest without tip-toeing around the issue and making it seem like it was making you uncomfortable too. I respond, personally to someone who deliveres their advice with strength rather then err...maybe possibly do it this way? ^_^

Hah, humans I say. Even the most common fantasy non-human species (elves, dwarves, gnomes, whatever kind of halfling race the author adopts, fairies, and so on) are usually white in skin color.

This is funny considering most fae in true fairy mythology are more swarthy, skined and darked haired rather then tall fair of skin and hair ^^;

Just put women on top, go the worst of these books, and everything will be fine.

See, I'm waiting for a feminist fantasy author who tries to prove that women are equal to men by yes, putting them in charge of their fantasy society and having the women there be just a corrupt and failible as the men. Showing that yes we are equal, women aren't better they aren't any worse we're all just human which means we naturally have fault.


The elf will be one of a number of elves (usually) who exemplify a mysterious, dying, often very Zen-like culture that the human heroes get to gape at for a little while, shed a tear or two over, and then depart.

This would be the reason I was extremely dissapointed with Kristen Britains follow up novel Riders First Call because she introduced a vaguely interesting if cliche'd elf-like culture that she just HAD to turn into a manic depressive race that of course is fading away. Jeez...I still like your idea of where it's the reversal, where ELVES are the ones who are reaching an age of power and are steadily taking over humanity. ^_^

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[info]limyaael
2004-10-02 10:28 am UTC (link)
Thank you. The issue of race is one that used to make me much more uncomfortable, but that's one place where being in a university setting really does help: I'm around so many people who want to discuss it, and people who avoid discussing it and then just look silly, that I had a lot of practice overcoming my discomfort.

Aw, shoot, Rider's First Call did that? I liked Green Rider, though I didn't think it was the strongest story ever written. Any redeeming features about it?

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(no subject) - [info]marumae, 2004-10-02 11:46 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]tasllyn, 2004-10-03 08:32 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]youraugustine, 2004-10-03 01:04 pm UTC

[info]tavalya_ra
2004-10-02 08:19 am UTC (link)
1. Guilty but I can justify this a little. Many of rules of my world fuction similar to ours. Because of where on the planet the setting of the first book is placed, the majority of the people would have lighter skin, variable with the ethnic origins of their ancestors. (People in this world, however, do not attach importance to skin color. It becomes an issue only if a character's heritage is an issue- and then it's the heritage, not the color, that counts.)

2. There is a strong matriarchal tradition on my world, but there isn't any of this "women are less violent, women are more in tune with nature" bullshit. Woman rule because of ideology and social constructs and prejudice that make them appear superior. The absense of a penis does not mean the absense of war or that they won't seriously screw things up.

3. It is really hard for me to find a story with elves that does not drive me up a wall. I can't stand sterotypical elves, I want them all to die painfully, GAH!

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[info]limyaael
2004-10-02 10:29 am UTC (link)
1) Are there people with other skin colors in other places, though?

2) Why is there a matriarchal tradition? I don't know if the worship of a goddess can justify it, because a culture can have a tradition of goddess worship and still be male-dominated.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]tavalya_ra, 2004-10-02 12:19 pm UTC

[info]maureenlycaon
2004-10-02 08:48 am UTC (link)
On 2: I'm tempted to be snide here and ask you to list some of these godawful feminist novels so I can go read them. ;-) But instead, I'll point out a series of novels that explores gender issues wonderfully: Suzy McKee Charnas's Holdfast Chronicles.

In Walk to the End of the World, there's an appalling patriarchal society in which women are slaves, animals and enemies -- but Charnas doesn't just point out how hideous it is. Instead, she creates a richly detailed culture with a distinctly non-modern ethos, with a manhood ritual using a potent derivative of marijuana (the failures become semi-human "Rovers", and are trained for guard and attack duties), a division of society into Juniors and Seniors (and you're not supposed to pick a sexual partner outside of your division), guilds, forbidden sun-cults, Endpath (where men go to be put painlessly to death when they are ready to die), and so on.

In The Furies, the formerly enslaved "femmes" conquer what's left of the Holdfast (no, it's not a slave rebellion out of the blue -- looong story), but end up pretty much reversing the roles. It's an ugly, hateful story, and Charnas resists all temptation to make it politically correct -- but then, in The Conqueror's Child, most of the femmes (other than Kobba) are beginning to feel they want something else, and having to struggle with that.

Yes, I'm cheerleading like a fangirl. But Charnas is Exhibit A of authors who have Done It Right. Now, if you were to name Mary Mackey's works instead, I might even agree with you.

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[info]limyaael
2004-10-02 10:38 am UTC (link)
You keep telling me to read these books. I'm starting to have the feeling that I should listen to you. *grin*

What's Mary Mackey written?

Some of the fantasy books that drove me nuts with "Women are GOOOOD, men BAAAD":

Anne Bishop, The Tir Alainn trilogy (The Black Jewels trilogy also has some of the same problems, but there at least the male characters, though in awe of the women, have a place in the society that's more complementary). Perfect Wiccan witches, and the villain that persecutes them is named Adolfo. Yay for unsubtle!

Kate Forsyth, The Witches of Eileanan. It has sequels, but I never read them because the first one was so painful. Oppressed witches with evil patriarchal enemies. The abandoned, orphaned, special, red-haired twin heroines were really just icing on the cake. Oh, and did I mention that everyone speaks in "Celtic" dialogue?

Lynn Flewelling's latest trilogy, beginning with The Bone Doll's Twin. The heroine has to rule the kingdom, because the kingdom has to be ruled by a woman, because, um, ask Flewelling. The heroine's twin brother is killed at birth and she's put into the body of a boy so she can live. No one asks the mother, no one fucking explains anything to the heroine, the murder of the brother isn't represented as really regrettable, and there's a typical naked sexual witch running around that makes me bang my head into the wall in frustration.

Melanie Rawn, the Exiles trilogy (again, I only read the first book, The Ruins of Ambrai). Perfectly revesered matriarchal society with mostly female soldiers, sexual harrassment of males, and so on. Yet the males are represented as mostly content with their lot, and women are good, good, good. Um, yay?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]maureenlycaon, 2004-10-02 11:56 am UTC

[info]lnhammer
2004-10-02 09:34 am UTC (link)
Aside from often-mentioned Earthsea above, Tamora Pierce does this (not as gracefully) in the "Circle of Magic" books. Initially what you notice is that one character is darker than the others, but she's black-skinned to their dark tan, but a character from the north is blond, and when the black character travels to the Russian rip-off culture, she and her teacher stand out in a major way.

---L.

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[info]tainted4life
2004-10-02 10:05 am UTC (link)
1)...
haha! The default skin colors for WHAT SHADOWS WE ARE and WHAT SHADOWS WE PURSUE are basically what you get when you cross a Middle Eastern-like race with a bunch of cappuccino-skinned people as well as the French and the Spanish-- at least for the Modern Balreqieans. So the Pure Balreqieans/Old Balreqieans are dark haired, blue eyed, and have skin the color of cappuccino. The Vabren are bronze-skinned and dark eyed, because they live in a desert.

2) yeah. I deal with that in a sci fi novel, set in an alternate earth. the non-human remnants of Rome move to Sicily, create The Citadel... and then split into two groups: the Aylu Aurelius, who claim to be the descendants f Aureil and his wife Mierra, and are a bunch of male chauvinists... and the Aylu Mierra/Mirar, who claim to be the descendants of Aureil and his slave
Mierra, a slave he freed and married. They're a bunch of female chauvinists.
And by the way, neither one of them is right! Hahahahahahaha!

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(Anonymous)
2004-10-02 11:49 am UTC (link)
good rant. :-)

A big "me, too" on recommendations of Ursula LeGuin for breaking stereotypes without ending up with other stereotypes. C.J. Cherryh does it well, too, but only in her SF.


The implied idea underlying the comment is that it is startling that a man can do plausible women characters.

I have encountered that attitude in role playing games where the GM didn't allow anyone to play cross-gender, because "it can't be done well, and since we all know men/women, we'll all notice." Answers some player: "But I am allowed to play a rich girl?"


Simple reversal of genders sets up traps.

(Contradicting the intention of my above comment...) For a decade or so I have written men only as cardboard villains or in supporting roles, because I just didn't "get" them. (It showed. Whenever I tried a male character, my betas would roll their eyes.) Which has left me with a world where a lot of key roles are held by women, and while some readers asked whether that was supposed to be a matriarchy, many just found it "refreshing". (Those were the 80s...)

The long-term good thing about this was that I have written female characters all over the spectrum of virtues and sins now, so there wasn't an ecological niche (or: convenient cliche) left for men, once I had done my research and started to write some. Now I have a society where men and women are equal by accident of creation ;-) and women still hold a lot of the key roles.


Think twice about making white the default skin color.
...
When the fantasy world has, say, 10 cultures scattered across the face of a global world, linked together by telepathy and magical gating, and yet all of them are white, it puzzles me.

I'm writing in a SF setting, where canonically, nearly every Earther in the 24th century has middle-to-dark brown skin, with dark hair and slightly slanted eyes. My blonde, grey-eyed, white-skinned (and extremely long-lived) heroine is often mistaken for an alien, or at least a strange colonial...

BTW, some time ago I read a very interesting article in a scientific journal about how skin colours on Earth happen, and how they change. It seems that 200 years (eight generations) are enough to adjust skin colour to a new environment, if no protective measures are taken. (I wonder if that explains the many light-skinned african-americans... of course, intermarriage is probably the easier explanation.)

inge

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[info]catfish42
2004-10-02 08:17 pm UTC (link)
Whee, I like this rant.

re: 1 and 3
Of my five known cultures, none are human, two are darkskinned, two (I think... one I'm not decided on) are lighter, and one is... well, a sort of middling-blue. I'm trying very hard not to make any one of them analogous to modern western culture, and it's difficult. I keep realizing that I have to weed out certain assumptions. (The "true love" thing seems to be the hardest to budge, irritatingly enough. Well...monogamous relationships entered into for some sort of affection, anyway. It's not majickal-at-first-sight-soulmate love, thank god.)

Another difficult thing is not making one of the cultures the "good" culture. In most fantasy and scifi that I've read, one race is seen as being the right one, and the others are sadly misguided and closeminded. (Usually the one that matches the author's own views.)

I'm trying not to do that, either. I try to have at least one part of each culture that I can appreciate, and one that I seriously disagree with, so I don't idealize anybody.

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[info]robling_t
2004-10-03 06:09 am UTC (link)
Why take up a white society without thought, or create all the humans in the story to be white?

It goes hand in hand with the pseudomedieval settings you've just been ranting about: if your characters are wandering about a pastiche of Central Europe, then why wouldn't the mental default be stuck on "honky"?

As to my own recent work, I'm pleased to be able to say that while my narrator is tall and fair and from a generally Scandahoovian ethnic group, said ethnic group are regarded about as highly in their society as Gypsies are in ours. His sidekick/love-interest is "the color of milky tea", and nobody bats an eye over the pairing. (At least not over that. There's a certain amount of rudeness about their age difference, though. ;) )

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[info]tasllyn
2004-10-03 08:18 am UTC (link)
1) Think twice about making white the default skin color.

first, although it was not the greatest book, *coughunderstatementcough* i would like to point out that eric von lustbader's ring of five dragon had their dominant race of people has blue skin. or...wait a minute, is that blue blood? darnit. it's been awhile since i've read it. maybe someone could tell me so i don't have to go looking through it again.

i think i might be guilty of this myself. i have a habit of not really describing anyone except by eye and hair color. it's funny, when i think about the stories, i see a land where skin color is not an issue, and different people just sort of mix. they have other issues instead. but when i write it...well, aside from my main character tasllyn, you only some across the whiteys. and the only reason tasllyn probably isn't is because she looks like me. now, for trath, i have an excuse(trath actually started out at least as a group project). trath was created for the people of the lost city of atlantis(i think. must check with legends). so all the humans there are pretty much from the same stock. now, in caerassa, i've just been lax so that's something i should try to fix in a rewrite when i go over the setting with a fine-toothed comb.

2) Simple reversal of genders sets up traps. WHEE!!!!!!! i did this one right!!! ok, trath has nothing to do with feminist societies or non-feminist. at least, not any part i'm in charge of. caerassa, on the other hand, does. but at least stuff doesn't get fixed just cause the women are on top. ok, need to actually write more so i actually GET that far!!!

3) Try presenting nonhumans in some other fashion than as sidekicks or exoticized, dying flowers.

woohoo!!! ok, caerassa is nonapplicable here. and the dominant race in trath is humans. but the race i'm most concerned with is the unicorns, since my main character is half unicorn. granted, the story i'm writing now focuses on tasllyn a lot more than on the unicorns, but they get a much bigger role later in the series, so i've been developing their culture, their formal language, their legendry, etc. i think we have at least one other set of nonhumans we made up too: the shinalas. but i don't know quite so much about them yet.

4) Mess about with class relationships. not much to say about this one. note taken.

thank you limyaael!!! this rant helps a lot!!! at least i know some of my stuff is going in the right direction!!!

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[info]melarin
2004-10-03 11:58 am UTC (link)
Women are inherently spiritual (something which makes this atheist woman laugh very hard)

*snickers*

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[info]lingzer0
2004-10-03 12:57 pm UTC (link)
Hi. You don't mind if I've friended you, do you? Your rants are brilliant, and extremely helpful for my writing.

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[info]limyaael
2004-10-04 04:23 am UTC (link)
No, not at all. I'm glad they're helpful.

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[info]dipping_sauce
2004-10-03 09:15 pm UTC (link)
(I think I found you by trawling a friend's friends list. Can't remember whose, though.)

I've read a few of your rants since I found you journal, and found them to be useful and informative. They've definitely given me some things to think about regarding my own writing.

So consider yourself friended ^_^ (Hope you don't mind.)

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[info]limyaael
2004-10-04 04:23 am UTC (link)
Not at all. *friends you back* (And thank you for telling me how you found me. The rants seem to spread about, and I'm sometimes completely puzzled when new people show up).

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[info]erin_c_1978
2004-10-04 02:01 pm UTC (link)
Regarding brown skin rather than white skin being the default: I'm sure I've pimped this book here before, but this is the case for Jo Walton's _The King's Peace_. IIRC, the heroine may even have remained a bit racist throughout the book.

(Reply to this)

Stereotypes
(Anonymous)
2004-12-08 04:40 pm UTC (link)
One thing I like to do to get rid of racials/species stereotypes is to plan/write the characters without any physical description at all. I mean, I only pick races and whatnot if it has some meaning pertaining to the story. This also helps to get rid of what I call 'visual' stereotypes. The girl with blonde hair usually fits one of a couple blonde stereotypes: cheerful and hyper, happy and gentle, or bitchy and snotty. A girl with black hair and dark eyes is always mysterious. A person with red eyes is always either mysterious or maniac. Etc.

The thing I think I like most about my main character is that she was originally written as a guy. I planned the personality to be like a guy as much as possible. Then, on a whim, I decided to change 'him' to a girl. I really like the result. The character isn't a traditional tomboy, because the original male version didn't jump around and climb trees and whatnot. The character simply doesn't fit the female stereotypes: she's not emotional, she's analytical, and she's an atheist. She doesn't have gender identity issues or anything: she's just a guy who I changed to a girl at the last minute.

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Re: Stereotypes
[info]x_haphazard_x
2006-03-07 02:03 am UTC (link)
About no physical description- same. I actually am rather bothered by physical description, so I hardly ever go into it. Usually I just explain the build of the character at some point, because to me, that's the most important point, because that can make a lot of difference in things like body language, intimidation tactics, etc. If I say a character has "dark hair," they could be black, latino, asian, or just simply be european with dark hair.It implies nothing.

Usually I imagine my main characters with skin tones other than white, but I just don't make a big point of it in the writing. I think that that would actually just be beating the whole thing into the ground even more.

I once wrote a world-hopping story, where my main characters looked asian, but they didn't know that because they had barely went outside their little town at all.

Then again, if you're making it mideval style, go ahead, make most your characters white. Really, it does make a lot more sense.

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[info]mark356
2005-05-14 09:33 pm UTC (link)
I've thought about the skin colors thing, and I end up using white characters anyway. Say that my elves had typically Oriental features: short height, tanned skin, almond-shaped eyes, black hair. Either there would be a bunch of people who looked Oriental for no reason, or I would have to make them actually have some connection to Chinese or Japanese society or mythology, which is something I know nothing about. If I had black characters, a black reader might likewise feel offended that I have this person with black skin doing magic that has nothing to do with indigenous African traditions or old African-American traditions, since any magic I would write a black character doing would be based in my Western fantasy tradition; if I tried to write about black characters practicing some type of African shamanism, either it wouldn't fit into my story, since the type of magic I'm using has nothing to do with shamanism, or any black reader would feel horribly insulted, since as a person who hasn't lived there and studied it muchly, I would get so many things wrong.

It is true that I am not a fan of alternate-world fantasy, the type with the big map in the front; I would rather write in a version of this world that does have magic. Therefore I'm not going to invent a desert race or a forest race; except for my elves, everyone has to already be here. And I have described why my elves have to look as if they're of European descent above; their magic is related to Western magical traditions, and thier literary ancestors are all made up by Europeans, who if they don't look like little monsters (e.g. Dobby) look essentially like any other European. This does not limit me to Tolkein's Nordic-looking elves, but it does limit me to white people.

And if I were to write about an Asian person, or black person, or indigenous American, either I would make them just like any other character, ignoring any cultural background, and providing variation only by their personality and skin color, or they would clearly be the token Black, or token Asian, or whatever it is.

I do agree with your GGK quote; I think that people are writing about just about anyone. Just because I have no ovaries doesn't mean I can't write about people who do; just because I have no magic doesn't mean I can't write about people who have it; and so on. However, I still feel that I can't realistically write about people from non-Western cultures, or entities who look like them.

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