Limyaael ([info]limyaael) wrote,
@ 2004-10-15 18:10:00
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Current mood: cheerful
Entry tags:fantasy rants: autumn 2004, plotting rants

Second part of the plotting rant
The second part of the plotting rant, on advancing the plot in small ways.



Oh, and sometimes showing how Special and Mistreated the character is, too. But those are obvious to see, with the author usually not shirking to describe the action of a battle or the lingering moments of a kiss (sometimes for far too long) or to paint in broad strokes exactly how creative and imaginative and clever and OMG mistreated the protagonist is. Smaller advancements to plot are usually neglected.

Yet action can happen through them, often in subtler and more shining ways than through the “major” plot points.

1) Use characters’ expression and gestures to advance the plot. There are some fantasy authors who think they have a handle on this, by making the villain “smirk” whenever he has a plan brewing, or making the heroine flush when she sees the hero naked. These are also obvious, sometimes groan-inducingly so.

Why?

Because such fantasy authors rarely describe the expressions or gestures otherwise.

This is one advantage to description of gestures and expressions that usually gets ignored. Put the “dramatic” ones in a sea of similar ones, and the reader won’t be able to guess as easily where you’re going with the plot, especially if the description isn’t happening from the POV of the character smiling or smirking or flushing or flinging up a warding hand or whatever.

I can think of at least four other advantages:

a) It gives the author something to describe about their characters besides the endless, lengthy love poems to eye and hair colors.
b) It provides a framework that may make sense only in retrospect. Have your hero fumble after words, and perhaps he’s embarrassed at the heroine’s beauty, but he may also be figuring out the best way to present an awkward truth, or concealing a secret, or choking on air, or thinking about something else and having to bring his mind back to the conversation. Reading the book a second time, the reader may know exactly which of those explanations is true, but the first time, it adds to a sense of mystery and excitement.
c) It sets up a sense of ordinary life. People shouldn’t only use their faces and hands when the author wants them to give away a secret or make an ironic point. Their bodies and faces should be in constant motion, and describing them can make them seem to be more present, more real.
d) It avoids the need for stupid dialogue tags like “said angrily,” “said happily,” “he jerked out,” or “she pontificated haughtily.” Show us the character smiling, and it’s a good bet that he’s happy.

Use them some more.

2) Use conversations to do something besides dump backstory. I complained about Long Conversations in the first post like this, but that doesn’t mean that talk has no place in a fantasy. It just means that it should help in other ways besides explaining the whole history of the Back of Beyond to the protagonist.

Some of the tensest, most exciting scenes I’ve written have been conversation scenes. When two characters get steadily angrier at each other, they’ll probably erupt when they finally spiral into confrontation, but that doesn’t mean they’ll necessarily be trying to hit each other over the head with chairs or kill each other with swords. They may be different people than that, they may have no reason to actually hurt each other, or they may be people not expected to fight (two women in a traditional medieval society, for example, though the number of conversations between two female characters in fantasy is shockingly small compared to the number of conversations between men and women, or two men). Some verbal blows hurt worse than any physical blows. There are people who know this and will resort to those blows.

Also, consider what happens if one character has a secret. Threatening to reveal that secret, or the scene in which the petty villain blackmails the character who has it, is scary, and can’t always be stopped with a sword through the gut, the situation that too many fantasy authors resort to. (Too many fantasy scenes in general are set up to end with violence or magic, I think, and ignore other means of negotiating differences or expressing anger or whatever the conflict is).

So conversation scenes can be good. The trick is not to turn them into infodumps or “As you know, Bob…” scenes, where one character tells something to another character who already knows it. Advance the plot through them instead.

3) Use ordinary things as well as the machinations of enemies to kick plots into motion. Surely you know this rhyme:

For want of a nail, the shoe was lost,
For want of the shoe, the horse was lost,
For want of the horse, the rider was lost,
For want of the rider, the battle was lost,
For want of the battle, the kingdom was lost,
And all for the want of a horseshoe nail!

It applies to fantasy, too. Perhaps it applies with special force to fantasy, where there are kingdoms to lose, and yet writers prefer to portray everything as conspiracy or “destiny,” without ever resorting to those small happenings.

This is another situation where simply remembering that people and objects and animals other than the heroes exist is extremely beneficial. They’re probably riding horses, right? Those horses probably need to rest and sleep and eat and drink, right? This is more true, not less, if the heroes are running them ragged by galloping away from enemies. Just once, kill a horse from the exhaustion that would necessarily pile on top of it after all that exercise, or have it get a stone in its hoof and limp, or have it die from any other method than the dastardly enemies shooting arrows into it. This gives your heroes an inconvenience that doesn’t depend on the “villain double standard”—the enemies being very powerful when the plot requires it, and then absurdly easy to defeat when the dramatic conclusion comes.

Likewise, say the heroes’ caravan is climbing a mountain trail, and encounters a path blocked off by stones. They have to turn back and go the other way around, and so lose half a day, and so miss the people they were supposed to meet in the next village—and that screws everything else up. On the other hand, perhaps they’ll meet someone in the village who can help them, who they wouldn’t have met if they had left with the people they originally came there to meet.

Instead of applying enemies or people who hate your hero to the story, apply Murphy’s Law. This can function in numerous ways, but some of the most useful in the typical fantasy story would be:

-weather (even snow and rain can slow travel, stop travel, ruin crops, kill people and animals, and cause secondary disasters, like mudslides).
-pre-existing political factions and rivalries (thus the hero can be stepping into a hornet’s nest that has nothing to do with him).
-waterskins (springing leaks, getting filled with dirty water and having to be thrown out, having an unnoticed rip or tear so that the leak is slow).
-food (it can spoil, it can attract insects, it can already be full of insects, it can run out, it can poison someone accidentally, it can cause an allergic reaction).
-animals (messenger birds that never appear, dogs that run off at the wrong moment, cats who are lurking about and making the hero trip over them, wandering animals like skunks or bears who get into the food. And do you know how fragile horses are?)
-time (this may make bridges unstable, cause houses to fall down, make paths through the wilderness unrecognizable, or block certain passages with things like spring floods from the snowmelt).
-money (it runs out, it gets lost, it provides a tempting target for thieves).

4) Recognize some of the more common plot devices and exorcise them. I’m talking specifically about fantasy here. Fantasy novels are different from each other in interesting ways—they had better be, or why else would I continue to read the genre?—but sometimes it seems as if a template exists:

-hero escapes from some danger that kills his entire family/village/guardian.
-hero is told of his mysterious heritage or destiny in a Long Conversation.
-hero gets “chosen” by a talking sword/talking animal/god/prophecy/other race/invisible floating balloon alien.
-hero learns, if he hasn’t already, that this makes him the Key to Everything.
-hero is hunted by dark enemies, and attacked by increasingly powerful antagonists (I have never, ever read a fantasy where the Dark Lord captures the hero right away and successfully brainwashes him, though I think this would be more interesting), and manages to defeat them all.
-hero trains, and of course turns out to be better than his mentor (yawn).
-hero gets persecuted by peers and bullies and parents who don’t understand his choices or are jealous of him (if that didn’t already happen back in the village, or his parents are still alive).
-hero whines soliloquizes about his torment.
-hero accepts his burden.
-hero defeats the ultimate enemy.

Get rid of all of these, if you can. You can have an ordinary person who is not the Key to Everything; it would be different, since so much fantasy is about OMG the Speshulness. You can have a hero who is not Chosen. You can have a Dark Lord who is creative and intelligent as well as powerful, or a story with no villain at all, just competing viewpoint characters. You can have a character who suffers but doesn’t whine (just ask Carol Berg!) You can have a character who has serious conflicts with other people that aren’t about “misunderstandings” or “jealousy.” And I know it sounds radical, but you can even have protagonists whose parents are both still alive and have relatively good relationships with them. All of these would help the plot advance, because they mean the author can’t just fall back on clichés.

Clichés can sometimes be revived. I think it actually takes more effort to write things like, oh, a hero with a telepathic cat companion and do it with any originality than to come up with a plot that doesn’t follow the template up there. On the other hand, the reason it’s so hard, and failed at so often, is because a lot of fantasy authors don’t make the effort, or think they’re being completely original when they’re just enacting a very slightly different spin (a telepathic hawk instead of a telepathic cat, or a heroine who’s persecuted for her healing magic instead of her elemental magic) that isn’t enough to overcome the deadening effect of the teenage soap opera.

…I’m sorry. Looking at that template again, it’s an insult to both soap operas and teenagers. Let’s call it a pseudo-soap opera.



Shapeshifter characters next, I think.




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[info]inarticulate
2004-10-15 03:20 pm UTC (link)
Cannot wait for shapeshifters. And thank you! Plotting rant! I cannot plot my way out of a paper bag (at least not well, and this helps. By knowing what to avoid, one also knows what ones options are. =D

...that and the fact that this pretty much summarizes the stories I abandoned way back in middle school because they were boring me to tears. ._.;

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[info]limyaael
2004-10-15 03:24 pm UTC (link)
You're welcome. I too have read too many of those fantasy books, and while they don't make the genre, they are numerous in it (and are unfortunately the kind of thing that a lot of people encounter and run screaming from, thus prejudicing them against fantasy). I want more plots, dammit.

Shapeshifters will be very fun.

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[info]suzene
2004-10-15 03:41 pm UTC (link)
Shapeshifter characters next, I think.

Set phasers on 'shred', I beg you.

Suzene

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[info]limyaael
2004-10-15 03:59 pm UTC (link)
Oh, they will be. I'm as tired of cute catgirls and what-not as the next sane person.

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(no subject) - [info]kadaria, 2004-10-15 05:50 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2004-10-16 07:43 am UTC

[info]orerinia
2004-10-15 03:52 pm UTC (link)
You mentioned Carol Berg! Sorry for the random squealing, but she's hit my favorites list of novelists for her non-angsty first POV writing and her characterizations. Unlike a few others, who deem first person a lovely way to have a character angst. *eyes Robin Hobb and Patricia Briggs*

I think with plot, some people get caught up in the whole 'everything in the novel must have a purpose' and take it wrong, thinking that it all must tie in with the Great Evil and the Ultimate Quest. They forget that a horse coming up lame with a stone bruise can cause quite a problem for a hero if he's working against a time limit. That's a purpose for the lame horse.

Of course, it's rather useless just to have a horse come up lame in the story when there's no big rush anywhere.

Really looking forward to the shapeshifters. What does happen to all that body mass when a person transforms into a small cat?

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[info]limyaael
2004-10-15 04:01 pm UTC (link)
Carol Berg is one of my five favorite fantasists. Seyonne suffers, but he takes responsibility. I think that's one of the things that sets him apart from the typical angsty teenage protagonist (besides being adult, and better-written): he doesn't get to evade responsibility through awesome magic or his bloodline or whatever. The magic gets him in more troubles than out of them.

Well, it depends on the plot reason for the horse being lame. I would find it easier to accept if the hero met the heroine because his horse needed a shoe and she was the farrier than I would if they were "destined" to meet.

And I've never been able to accept the usual "explanations" for how a person become a small cat- or a dragon, for that matter.

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(no subject) - [info]orerinia, 2004-10-15 04:29 pm UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2004-10-16 06:19 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2004-10-16 07:44 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]undeadgoat, 2004-10-16 01:42 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]thedeadqueen, 2004-10-20 02:05 pm UTC

[info]kleenexwoman
2004-10-15 03:55 pm UTC (link)
I am learning so much and getting so many ideas from your rants. Didn't you mention once that you had a website where you archived these?

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[info]limyaael
2004-10-15 04:02 pm UTC (link)
Thank you. Or you're welcome, maybe. :)

I gave up on the website because it was such a bitch to update. But a href="http://www.livejournal.com/tools/memories.bml?user=limyaael&keyword=Limyaael%27s+Fantasy+Rants&filter=all">Limyaael's Fantasy Rants</a> memories have most of them.

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[info]kiena_tesedale
2004-10-15 04:37 pm UTC (link)
Very nice rant, I especially liked the cliche part. If I never read a fantasy story with 'cruel, mean, horrible bullies' in it ever again, I will die happy. I think I just read too many Mercedes Lackey books as a teenager. :P

I'm sort of dreading the shapeshifter rant, I have to admit, since my primary novel has two were-animals in it. I hope I don't do (much of) the stuff you're going to rant about. :)

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[info]limyaael
2004-10-16 07:45 am UTC (link)
The bullies bit comes from a lot of fantasy authors being teased in high school, I think. (Hey, I was). It's understandable, but I really wish they would keep it out of what is meant to be good story-telling, not "Here is my life, and here is my angst."

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[info]cygna_hime
2004-10-15 05:19 pm UTC (link)
Speaking as someone who can't write battles and has refused to write romance as the main plot mover, word. Also, speaking as someone who reallyreallyreally loves banter and/or interesting conversations, worship.

I love plot that has something to do with that wonderful thing we call reality. Food? Sleep? Those are nice. And maybe the occasional change of clothes? Or a bed without rocks in?

I have sworn to avoid bad fantasy 'plot' cliches or die trying. So far, mixed results.

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[info]limyaael
2004-10-16 07:48 am UTC (link)
You're welcome. I've used (maybe overused) the modest bits myself, like sending a hero in danger into towns because he couldn't hunt and had to buy food.

I have sworn to avoid bad fantasy 'plot' cliches or die trying. So far, mixed results.

The focus should be on making them good, I think. I don't understand the people who angst over someone else pointing out that their plot sounds pretty archetypal. (Now, if they themselves have spotted that and don't like it...) On the other hand, I don't understand the people who defend the typical template story as though there were nothing wrong with it. Yes, there is: most of them just aren't good, or well-written. To use some events from that template but get away from it, they have to do the extraordinary.

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[info]tainted4life
2004-10-15 05:43 pm UTC (link)
Hah! My characters all have good relationships with their parents! Except for Setekh, because she doesn't have any, but she really adores her adopted parents. And then there's Cefo, but he's working on rebuilding his relationship with his dad, so!

And yes! You care about the horses!

I wonder how often I use gestures. I try to do it often, but...

And there really should be more shouting matches that evolve from differences in worldview and opinion, and not stupid misunderstandings and jealousy.

But is it possible for a woman to be a farrier? I mean, if you're still using farriers? I doubt a medieval/renaissance/victorian society would allow a woman to have that much economic independence. And it'd take a hell of a lot for a woman to get the physical strength that a male farrier would have. Peasant women were significantly less physically powerful than men, weren't they? Even though they worked?

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On farriers
[info]kadaria
2004-10-15 05:46 pm UTC (link)
Actually, my farrier (in real life) is a woman so there is no reason outside of cultural/social reasons why a woman couldn't do it, or at least that's how I see it.

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(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2004-10-16 07:50 am UTC

[info]kadaria
2004-10-15 05:43 pm UTC (link)
*totally dazzled by the thought of shapeshifters since that's what Kumiho do best*

Funny thing, I just finished watching the Dark Crystal and it basically applies directly to your templete in number 4...yet I still like it a lot ;)

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[info]jetamors
2004-10-15 06:05 pm UTC (link)
I have never, ever read a fantasy where the Dark Lord captures the hero right away and successfully brainwashes him, though I think this would be more interesting

IIRC, C. S. Lewis did that in The Silver Chair. Just gives me another reason to like him.

I'm taking notes on all of this, btw. Seems like right now everything I write either comes out as "Heroes Defeat Random Obstacles Thrown in their Way!" or "A Very Special Episode in which Important Life Lessons are Learned". And since I hate reading both of those, I'm trying very hard to improve my plotting.

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[info]limyaael
2004-10-16 07:52 am UTC (link)
I think I wasn't counting Lewis because the prince's brainwashing wasn't permanent; he did still know who he was in the night. But then, fantasies in general where the hero joins the evil side are pretty damn rare. (And I did find The Silver Chair the creepiest of the Narnia books for precisely that reason).

You're welcome. I think that sometimes recognizing what the plot can be 'reduced to' and writing it well is the best course. Plots can always be stripped down to bare, common essentials. I'm more interested in those things that always get ignored, the things that make them different from each other.

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(no subject) - [info]art_of_kore, 2004-10-16 08:36 am UTC

[info]maureenlycaon
2004-10-15 07:23 pm UTC (link)
Since I used to write shapeshifter stories (mostly under another name) I await your shapeshifter rant with both eagerness and trepidation.

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[info]tavalya_ra
2004-10-15 08:49 pm UTC (link)
1. My main villain has finally gotten it through my skull that he isn't the smirking type. Sometimes, I get so hung up on something that a character has to repeatedly bash me over the head to get me change it.

2. I agree. The books I love the most are those with striking dialogue.

3. I hate destiny with a passion. The question of whether or not a particular event was destined will come up and will cause a character to have a crisis of faith. I plan to give a definitive answer- the character will have to decide for himself and the reader will have to decide whether or not she agrees.

4. hero escapes from some danger that kills his entire family/village/guardian.

-hero is told of his mysterious heritage or destiny in a Long Conversation.

-hero gets "chosen" by a talking sword/talking animal/god/prophecy/other race/invisible floating balloon alien.


::wince:: Yes to all three. Except possibly two- I'm going to scatter this conversation throughout the story as much as possible.

I can't kill one or three. However, part of my goal is to do one and three well.

-hero learns, if he hasn't already, that this makes him the Key to Everything.

No! She isn't! There are other people equally important to the story!

-hero is hunted by dark enemies, and attacked by increasingly powerful antagonists (I have never, ever read a fantasy where the Dark Lord captures the hero right away and successfully brainwashes him, though I think this would be more interesting), and manages to defeat them all.

No. There is none of this Dark Lord crap and most of the bad guys have an agenda that has nothing to do with the heriones at all- it just manages to screw them in the process of accomplishing whatever.

-hero trains, and of course turns out to be better than his mentor (yawn).

Again, no. The closest thing to a mentor is the cranky talking bird who is smarter than the heriones at the beginning and stays that way.

-hero gets persecuted by peers and bullies and parents who don't understand his choices or are jealous of him (if that didn't already happen back in the village, or his parents are still alive).

One parent understands. One parent pretends not to understand for interesting reasons revealed later. One parent truly doesn't understand.

There are no bullies. I hate reading about them- they exist only to get squashed and then it feels like a really cheap, petty victory.

-hero whines soliloquizes about his torment

No, because the cranky talking bird will harass them if they try.

-hero accepts his burden

One does. The other doesn't realize she has a burden until it hits her like a brick.

-hero defeats the ultimate enemy.

No, because there is no ultimate enemy! But there are a lot of very clever, very capable evil-oriented people.

You can have a Dark Lord who is creative and intelligent as well as powerful, or a story with no villain at all, just competing viewpoint characters.

I have an identifable villain. Other characters are "villains" because their agendas have aspects that oppose the heriones- however, they don't care about the heriones, assuming they even know that the two girls exist.

My villain has two assets. First, he's clever (but not as clever as he thinks). Two, his second-in-command is very loyal and very capable (she fights better than he does). Asset two isn't always available to him, but asset one keeps him from getting killed, because the heriones eventually discover that they have some pretty impressive advantages. The scales are tipped against the villain from the start- I want to be very honest about this, although I admit that this fact is not obvious at first. Considering that, he does pretty damn well even though he won't get what he ultimately wants.

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[info]wolfychan
2004-10-15 09:51 pm UTC (link)
I await your shapeshifter rant with terror on my breath. I wrote/am writing a gigantic novel that basically takes shapeshifting to its logical conclusions. Which means, for starters, not limiting yourself to the normal set of animals. Sure, a horse can run faster than a human, but if you can change into anything and you need to run, why stop there? A narrow, muscular, long-legged mutant something like a neckless giraffe might not be pretty, but I bet it would run faster than a horse.

And when you're trapping a shapeshifter, never forget they can fly. When you're shooting at them, never forget they can grow armored plates. When they're not accounted for, don't trust anyone in your party to be who you think they are.

But even when you're having fun with it, there always has to be a weakness to the shifting powers. Otherwise they get just too damn powerful, especially if their powers heal wounds: when that happens, they're effectively immortal. And unless the shapeshifter is a very minor, very unambitious sort of character, immortality or massive power is bad. It gives you a villian who can't be defeated without cheating, or a hero whose victory is a foregone conclusion.

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(Anonymous)
2004-10-16 06:24 am UTC (link)
Hm... ever read Grant Morrisons "Animal Man"? Someone skilled at emulating animal abilities qualifies as a comic book superhero. ;-)

inge

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(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2004-10-16 07:54 am UTC

[info]alex_von_cercek
2004-10-16 05:49 am UTC (link)
-hero escapes from some danger that kills his entire family/village/guardian.

Heroine was sent away by her family, which is still alive somewher, but the family doesn't matter. The guardian was killed, though.
By the heroine.

-hero is told of his mysterious heritage or destiny in a Long Conversation.

A series of them, in fact. Composed mostly of interrogations in which other people try to find out about the destiny FROM the heroine, and she finds out what they know already instead.

-hero gets “chosen” by a talking sword/talking animal/god/prophecy/other race/invisible floating balloon alien.

Heroine gets chosen by...a lot of people. A few gods, an elderly tutor...

-hero learns, if he hasn’t already, that this makes him the Key to Everything.

The Key to Nothing, actually, since she's the world's equivalent of an Antichrist. She doesn't actually know this, nor will she like it (it suggests she serves the forces of evil, and she hates the idea of serving)

-hero is hunted by dark enemies, and attacked by increasingly powerful antagonists (I have never, ever read a fantasy where the Dark Lord captures the hero right away and successfully brainwashes him, though I think this would be more interesting), and manages to defeat them all.

You're right here, except replace "Hunted by dark enemies" with hunted by the eqiivalent of a police force. And she gets captured fairly soon.

-hero trains, and of course turns out to be better than his mentor (yawn).

She's not better. She's just good enough to kill him.

-hero gets persecuted by peers and bullies and parents who don’t understand his choices or are jealous of him (if that didn’t already happen back in the village, or his parents are still alive).

Parents? No parents around anywhere. No peers anywhere, either. She mostly plays it solo.

-hero whines soliloquizes about his torment.

She prefers morphine to angst.

-hero accepts his burden.

Rejects it utterly.

-hero defeats the ultimate enemy.

Er...I think that quite possibly, she doesn't.

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[info]laraqua
2006-05-31 05:43 am UTC (link)
Hehe, this sounds good.

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[info]maureenlycaon
2004-10-16 07:58 am UTC (link)
I'm really gonna have to work on 1) and 3) in this current story, I'm afraid.

But I'm a bit more smug about the anti-hero of the series I'm working on at the moment, Raven. He's all Speshul and Predestined, all right. But:

-hero escapes from some danger that kills his entire family/village/guardian.

Nope. He left because he was pissed off at his brother's unjust death and wanted to get help for his revenge.

-hero is told of his mysterious heritage or destiny in a Long Conversation.

Ohhhh probably . . . eventually. I haven't worked it out yet.

-hero gets “chosen” by a talking sword/talking animal/god/prophecy/other race/invisible floating balloon alien.

Guilty as charged. Except he doesn't know he's actually going to be a Dark Warrior for a very long time. He just thinks the Darkness has accepted him.

-hero learns, if he hasn’t already, that this makes him the Key to Everything.

See above.

-hero is hunted by dark enemies, and attacked by increasingly powerful antagonists (I have never, ever read a fantasy where the Dark Lord captures the hero right away and successfully brainwashes him, though I think this would be more interesting), and manages to defeat them all.

Nope. The forces of the Light don't even know he's still alive. His training is tough enough without that. No one out there is looking for him any more.

-hero trains, and of course turns out to be better than his mentor (yawn).

Guilty as charged again . . . but it will take him a loooong time to find that out.

-hero gets persecuted by peers and bullies and parents who don’t understand his choices or are jealous of him (if that didn’t already happen back in the village, or his parents are still alive).

The Dark Mage who trains him actually engineers most of the hostility of servants and henchmen. And it's not that they don't understand poor little Raven or are jealous -- they're just plain sadistic. Life in Zhevke's hold is brutal and violent.

-hero whines soliloquizes about his torment.

*sporfle* I'm tempted to crack the joke that Raven couldn't even spell "self-pity". He's less self-perceptive in some important ways than even the average person.

-hero accepts his burden.

Burden? You couldn't stop him if you tried.

-hero defeats the ultimate enemy.

Nope. Destroying the Light itself is far beyond any mortal's powers. Even his war on the human society of the Light ends in a Mexican standoff, with both sides losing.

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[info]lainyle
2004-10-16 01:10 pm UTC (link)
Gestures: Use them some more.

Have you ever encountered bobblehead characters? Some authors decide that the only acceptable gesture is a nodd (whether it be wise, sarcastic, slow, etc). It makes me downright dizzy reading stories like that. One of the things I need to work on are my grins and smiles--I fear the readers will start worrying about all that happiness.

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[info]limyaael
2004-10-16 08:19 pm UTC (link)
Oh god yes, the bobbleheads. Even more confusing is when the author feels a compulsion to use nod for everything, so characters are "nodding yes" on one page and "nodding no" on another. Just pick one and stick with it.

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[info]undeadgoat
2004-10-16 01:53 pm UTC (link)
-hero gets "chosen" by a talking sword/talking animal/god/prophecy/other race/invisible floating balloon alien.

The one book with a "chosen" protagonist that I still love and do not condemn as a Mary-Sue of extreme proportions, is Talking to Dragons. Sure, the sword's marking Daystar as the next king, but he is the only one of the bloodline the sword will accept that the sword will likely encounter, at least before Mendanbar dies. And we see what the sword sees in him -- the guy might be a little pigheaded, but he'll be able to learn to rule, and to be a good king.

And he has no idea he's being chosen, he just thinks the sword doesn't like him until the dwarves say, "OMG teh SOWRD!", even though we know, which is amusing in the extreme.

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[info]tasllyn
2004-10-20 04:55 pm UTC (link)
heh, actually, i think the entire enchanted forest chronicles tends to step out of the cliches a bit. then again, it's meant to be humourous. i love patricia c. wrede.

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(no subject) - [info]undeadgoat, 2004-10-20 04:57 pm UTC

[info]jinnigan
2004-10-16 03:42 pm UTC (link)
You know, I never seem to run into these terrible fantasy books you rant about, though that may be because I tend to stay with established authors (and largely sci-fi), like Herbert, Gibson, Clarke, Sagan, etc.

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[info]limyaael
2004-10-16 08:27 pm UTC (link)
*grin* I can give you a list if you like.

Mercedes Lackey: Cute stories, but they repeat too much- very few are different from the template I gave above- and they tend not to age well when readers who read them as teenagers try them as adults.
Robert Jordan: No idea how to end, way too many characters, every woman is the same character.
Terry Goodkind: The two main characters are invincible but still whine, sadomasochism and violence is out of control, tends to bang you over the head with his message (Capitalism is Good! Abortion is Bad!)
Terry Brooks: I liked his urban fantasy trilogy, which begins with Running With the Demon, but the Shannara series first cannibalized Tolkien and then itself.
David Eddings: Every book is that template I gave above.
Marion Zimmer Bradley: Some of the Darkover books are good. The Mists of Avalon and its sequels are preachy pseudo-feminist tripe.
Anne McCaffrey: The Dragonriders of Pern series has now completely jumped the shark, with characters introduced haphazardly, continuity ignored, and plots recycled without a blush.
Laurell K. Hamilton: The Merry Gentry series is pretty much an excuse for sex. The Anita Blake series has become nearly indistinguishable from it, although the character angsts some more, and sleeps with shapeshifters and vampires instead of faerie men.

And in bad SF, David Feintuch. Nicholas Seafort is the Gary Stu of Angsty-Doom. Of course random bad things keep happening to him, but they do it in such a way that he gets to be all Tormented, and then proclaimed a hero.

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(no subject) - [info]tasllyn, 2004-10-20 04:59 pm UTC
My Story Concept
[info]isdestroyer
2004-10-16 06:30 pm UTC (link)
Hi, I've been reading your rants for the past few days now and they have helped me a great deal. I know this may be out of context of what this rant was about, but I have a concept for a story and I would really like your opinion about it. Do you want me to just use these posts or do you want to IM me or e-mail me or me IM/e-mail you or somthing?

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Re: My Story Concept
[info]limyaael
2004-10-16 08:28 pm UTC (link)
I would prefer that you post here.

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My Story Concept.
[info]isdestroyer
2004-10-17 02:22 pm UTC (link)
All right then. I apologize for not posting this earlier but I was not home. Prepare for some long windedness.

This is not a fantasy story exactly, it takes place in the X-Men universe. Specifically, The X-Men Evolution cartoon show that came on on Saturday mornings on the WB. The basic story line is Magneto is up to his usual antics and of course, the X-Men must stop him. I have created my own characters for this and this is really what I want your opinion on. The first character is Matthew Starks whose mutant powers are of the light "element", for lack of a better term. He has long white hair (due to the X gene) and blue eyes. His skin has a very slight grayish tinge to it but unless your looking for it you don't really notice. He has four large bird (angelic) wings, the two larger protruding from his shoulder blades and two slightly smaller ones coming from some lower shoulder blades (lower back blades?). He is larger than a normal human to incorporate this extra bone and muscle mass. The two extra wings are there to help lift his weight and give him more stability and maneuverability in the air. He can generate light energy to produce a number of effects, mostly used for combat, but he can also manipulate his energy to cause various illusions, "tricks of the light" and use it to travel "through" the light, sort of like teleportation. His background is pretty normal, he grew up in Wisconsin, his parents were democrats, he was home-schooled due to his wings sprouting from his back. His personality is rather mild, considering his powers. He doesn't feel he has to use them, for good or evil, they are just part of him and he accepts it. He's not an atheist either, he just has no religious background. He doesn't not believe in God, but neither is religion part of his life. At the core, he's a decent person, but he does get pissed off easily and he does have a tendency to look down his nose at people. The major drawback to his power is he needs a lot of energy to sustain him, and this energy must come from another living being. The only living creatures with enough energy to sustain him that live where he does are humans. Mat must absorb the life energy of the people around him in order to live. If he drains to much, he will kill the person or at least make that person an invalid. Mat isn't really disturbed by this, but its not like he doesn't care. He just understands that it is necessary for his survival, and the energy he takes does return after several months. Mutants however, recover after a few days so when he joins the Brotherhood of Mutants he doesn't have to worry about his next meal. That reminds me, neither Mat nor my other character need to eat food, it doesn't give them the necessary energy anyway. Both Mat and my other character need only feed once a week. My second character is the one I really want to focus on. I have spent the most time developing his character and fleshing out his background, and he is the one I am most worried about. I don't know how to explain his powers "nicely" so I will be blunt about them. Phillip Morrin has powers of the dark "element". He is the cousin of Mat though that is revealed later in the story, they are two sides of the same coin. Phil can create dark energy that is used much in the same way as Mat's. Instead of wings however, he has tentacles that can sprout from his body (though he can morph the ones on his back into bat-like wings but he is neither as fast nor maneuverable as Mat). They are situated around his chest and mid to upper back. They come out of slits in his skin and can extend to a maximum of eight feet in length. When they go into his body they slide into sheaths under the muscle. Phil is also larger than normal humans to account for this extra mass. He has short black hair, hazel eyes and his skin is rather pale, like he doesn't get enough sun though it is part of his X gene. Phillip was raised in a very Christian environment. His parents are both avid church-goers and believe strongly in the ideals and morals the Bible teaches. This is where Phil's problems start.

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My Story Concept 2.
[info]isdestroyer
2004-10-17 03:13 pm UTC (link)
Phillip too must drain the energy from humans but he must do it in the form of sex. He uses his tentacles to induce the sexual experience and they absorb the chemicals and energy the body produces during coitus. Let me make something clear, Phillips' tentacles are NOT dicks. He derives no pleasure from the experience. For someone raised on the Bible this creates a lot of mental torture and angst (I hate that word). The story goes like this. When his powers developed he began to starve to death because he was not getting the necessary energy. His parents tried everything but no drug could help. He became so delirious and weak he could not move. One day, his mother was tending him in bed when his tentacles shot out and proceeded to absorb the energy from his mother. As the energy flowed into him he became more and more coherent until he realized what was happening. Only, he could not make his tentacles stop. They were acting on pure instinct. His father comes home from the drug store and hears screams coming from Phillips' room. He rushes up to find his wife wrapped in his sons' tentacles and then dropped to the floor as they finish. He looks at his son in horror and Phil has a mirror expression on his face. Then Phillip panics and jumps out of his bedroom window (cutting himself to shreds in the process. He has those scars for the rest of his life) and runs away. He makes his way north to the Xavier Institute (he lived in northern Texas) and feeds off of women he finds alone at night, using his powers to cloak himself in shadows (he too can use his power to travel, by moving "through" shadows). This causes him even more problems. First, he must break one of the Ten Commandments to survive, committing sexual immorality, as he sees it. Second, every time he feeds, he is swamped with guilt over what he did to his mother and what he must do to live. Third, as much as he contemplates suicide, he knows he can't get out that way either. The Bible says that suicide is a mortal sin, you die with a mortal sin on your soul, you go to Hell. He cannot let himself starve because that would be a form of suicide. So if he must live this way, then when he dies of old age he still is not absolved. No matter how he looks at it, he's damned if he does, and he's damned if he doesn't. Not a good recipe for a healthy mental state (not that he ever goes insane, he just comes close, unstable). He does not whine about his "curse", In fact he doesn't even talk about it. The only people who know are his parents, Professor X, his cousin (eventually), and the girl I introduce later. I did it this way because I could not see another way for him to have these problems. There is a mutant with the X-Men, Wolverine, whose powers allow him to heal any wound or sickness in seconds. If I had Phillip drain energy like Mat, this would provide to easy of a solution. I want him to have these dilemmas. I will not use this story to preach to anyone (I am a Christian), I just use that to help create the problem. I do involve the other characters as much as possible as the story is about the X-Men stopping Magneto and the Brotherhood from enslaving humanity. The cousins at odds with each other and dealing with their powers is a story within a story. (Oh, and both Mat and Phil are stronger than a normal human, but not to an extreme. If they punched a brick wall it would crack, but they would seriously hurt their hands in the process.)

Well, that's my idea. Tell me what you think, point out flaws, what have you.

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Re: My Story Concept 2.
[info]limyaael
2004-10-17 05:55 pm UTC (link)
I can only answer this on the attributes of the characters as given, because I know nothing about the X-men universe, but if they were fantasy characters, I would say they are canon Marty Stus.

1) The walking through light and walking through darkness powers sound waaay too powerful. How could any cell hold them?
2) Flying is also very powerful. Authors tend to use it as a deus ex machina to save their characters any falls.
3) Matt's personality is rather mild, but he also gets pissed off easily? How does that work?
4) The set-up for Philip's angst sounds very contrived. How did his parents deal with his mutation before what happened happened? Also, you say that he has to initiate sex to drain power, but what happened with his mother doesn't sound like sex, and it's hard to see how tentacles would initiate sex.
5) Philip's psychology also seems frozen. He angsts every time he feeds, and every day? He never gets used to it at all?
6) If Philip and Matt are cousins, it seems more likely that they would share one kind of draining power, not less.
7) "Involving the other characters as much as possible" but keeping the stories focused on these characters is a tactic that will lose you many readers in most fanfiction. People are often there to read about the characters they love, not the new ones.
8) There are just way too many powers. Matt doesn't have just the abiity to cause illusions, he can also fly and teleport and punch a brick wall and drain energy. Philip can teleport and punch a brick wall and cause darkness effects and drain energy. I'd say start chopping off those powers.

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Re: My Story Concept 2. - [info]isdestroyer, 2004-10-17 06:28 pm UTC

[info]thedeadqueen
2004-10-20 02:11 pm UTC (link)
I love your rants. I've learned more from your rants than from any book I've read about writing. I'm looking forward to your shapeshifter rant, although I'm kind of nervous because I've been trying to write a story involving werewolves for a while. (Still haven't fleshed out what a werewolf society would be like, but I'm getting there.) Maybe I'll find out what I'm doing wrong :-D

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[info]tasllyn
2004-10-20 03:01 pm UTC (link)
YAY limyaael!!!! this helps a LOT!!!!! actually, it makes me happy, because i think i actually have most of these right. the only thing that struck me as an "uh-oh!" point was on the first rant, with the backstory chapter. except, in my case, my characters have enough backstory that i put it in a separate book, to be a prequel to the big series.

-hero is hunted by dark enemies, and attacked by increasingly powerful antagonists (I have never, ever read a fantasy where the Dark Lord captures the hero right away and successfully brainwashes him, though I think this would be more interesting), and manages to defeat them all.

::cheer:: tasllyn gets brainwashed for almost a full book of the series, and afterwards, she still has a tendency to get controlled by the enemies every once in awhile.

thank you limyaael!

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Holy Crap.
(Anonymous)
2004-11-07 11:36 am UTC (link)
Dude, this is *awesome.* I just found what appears to be a total ass-kicking guide for fantasy writing *on the internet.* Seriously, bring this stuff to a publisher. I mean... I think I'm going to copy this into a word doc and put this link at the bottom, if you don't mind terribly. This is really, really good.

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[info]onyxflame
2006-03-02 04:44 am UTC (link)
Instead of applying enemies or people who hate your hero to the story, apply Murphy’s Law.

YES!

Ok, so I often forget to put in weather, but I love thinking up weird twists on the "expected". Few things are more fun than setting up something that seems like it'll cause certain results...and then pulling the rug out from under everything. (It also happens to work really great when writing funny stuff.)

-hero escapes from some danger that kills his entire family/village/guardian. - Nope. Though I don't know a damn thing about Reva's father, but I assume he's alive somewhere.
-hero is told of his mysterious heritage or destiny in a Long Conversation. - Nope. She has to figure it out on her own.
-hero gets “chosen” by a talking sword/talking animal/god/prophecy/other race/invisible floating balloon alien. - Nope. She's the one that does the choosing.
-hero learns, if he hasn’t already, that this makes him the Key to Everything. - Nope. Even if she becomes a god (which I'm assuming she will, but she may surprise me), she's just one god among many.
-hero is hunted by dark enemies, and attacked by increasingly powerful antagonists (I have never, ever read a fantasy where the Dark Lord captures the hero right away and successfully brainwashes him, though I think this would be more interesting), and manages to defeat them all. - Well, maybe. But there's plenty of "villains" to go around, and they're not all in league with each other. And the closest thing I have to a Dark Lord *does* capture her, but she gets away.
-hero trains, and of course turns out to be better than his mentor (yawn). - Mentor? She has a mentor? The only ones who could teach her are the gods, and they ain't gonna do that.
-hero gets persecuted by peers and bullies and parents who don’t understand his choices or are jealous of him (if that didn’t already happen back in the village, or his parents are still alive). - Her mother does some pretty stupid stuck-up stuff, which isn't really a good enough reason for her to leave to begin with, but I may change that if I can figure out how.
-hero whines soliloquizes about his torment. - Nah. She doesn't whine. She bitches. There's a difference. :P
-hero accepts his burden. - Err? The burden hasn't even started yet. *cackle*
-hero defeats the ultimate enemy. - There is no ultimate enemy really. I'm worried about book 2 though, since it'll have to be a lot questier.

Nice to know I did something more or less right, without specifically intending to do it that way. :)

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[info]laraqua
2006-05-31 05:38 am UTC (link)
What about if they're soooo speshul because they happen to have been the first person to contract a supernatural disease (weakest constitution in the village) and so must undergo a terrible ritual sacrifice in order to keep the disease-inducing salt creep at bay? And what if at the last moment others try to save her but she instead sacrifices herself and the one she's supposed to kill because she comes from a dutiful culture and wouldn't think of doing anything else? And what if she's accepting instead of angsty about all the sorrow that must be heaped upon her?

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