Limyaael ([info]limyaael) wrote,
@ 2004-10-17 20:27:00
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Current mood: arrogant
Entry tags:fantasy rants: autumn 2004, rants on nonhumans

Shapeshifter rant
Once again, informed by my personal opinions, and the things I am so sick and tired of seeing in fantasy.



1) KILL THE CUTE. For the love of whatever gods you believe in, kill the cutie-pies, slaughter the big fluffy plot devices, get rid of the “shapeshifters” who are humans with a few enhanced senses, and stop telling me that your heroine’s a werecat with a soft white coat, I don’t want to hear it.

Just as with telcoms, or telepathic companions, the advent of the cute too often signals the death of whatever personality the shapeshifter has. The fluffiness of her coat and the fact that she chases a ball of string becomes the point, not the fact that a werecat, say, might produce shit smelling strongly of ammonia, and what is she going to do with that in a public restroom? The shapeshifter is there for giggles or to play the sidekick, and sometimes to die a tear-jerking death, not to add any depth to the plot.

This is unfair to the whole idea of shapeshifters (as is point 5, which see). It doesn’t produce a character who is truly a blending of human and animal traits. It makes a human and baby hybrid. In fact, children in fantasy are often used in the exact same way as shapeshifters and telcoms, for cheap giggles or equally cheap angst (see point 3). It’s stupid to do this.

A good cure for something like this is to look up the habits of the animal species you’re basing your shapeshifter on. Yes, all the habits. Some are deeply nasty by human morality codes. For example:

-sea-mews will eat each other. Gull parents might lay multiple eggs but only have one chick in the end, because the strongest devours its brothers and sisters.
-red foxes will commit incest. A dog fox might well mate with a vixen he sired.
-male dolphins and male horses do not treat the females of their species well or gently, and are likely to herd them with blows and bites.
-lions and eagles will steal food from other animals if they can—in the case of lions, leopards; in the case of eagles, ospreys. They are very far from being noble hunters all the time.
-a number of fish will eat their young, one way of getting rid of the thousands of eggs.

(Wolves have a whole set of these, addressed in point 2).

Now, are any of these “problems?” Not really. They can be used to make the shapeshifter problematic in interesting ways, and closer to the animal. But adopting only the cute and ignoring the more fascinating, deep, or disquieting ways that animals behave is stupid, and leads to nauseating pink sugar shapeshifters.

2) Go beyond werewolves, I beg you. I usually don’t read books with werewolf characters anymore. The chances that the writer will do something new with them is extremely slim.

I blame this on the one common source for most of the werewolves in the fantasy genre, as I see it: horror movies. (There may also be a leak over from big fluffy telepathic wolf companions). Those werewolves are usually man-wolf hybrids, not true wolf shapeshifters; they are horrifying figures, or ones to regard with pity; they overemphasize aspects of the werewolf legend that don’t need to be considered in a fantasy setting, like the vulnerability to full moons and silver. They fit a very specific context, and they might do it well there, but it causes problems when the author tries to take them out of that context and plop them down in a fantasy novel.

Want your werewolf characters to change into wolves and live in a society that mixes lupine aspects with human? Right, then. Some things about wolves you need to know:

a) Their social order is hierarchical. Below the alphas is often a beta male—sometimes female—and the rest of the pack ranked in rigid order beneath them, down to the runt or low-ranker who gets picked on by everyone. Alphas eat first, eat best, lead in the hunt, receive special fawning from the other wolves, and defend their privileges. The only way to rise in the social hierarchy is by challenging the wolf above you, and for a wolf who’s small, injured, sick, or not very strong, this is hard to do. So, please, if you’re considering a lupine democracy, forget it. You’ll have to have a society with more human aspects for that.
b) Wolves are not exclusively monogamous to the point where they have one mate for the rest of their lives. If the alpha female gets toppled by a stronger female, then the alpha male will mate with the new alpha.
c) Wolves have no incest taboo, either. Fathers will mate with daughters, mothers with sons, etc. Wolves striking out for new packs, as many younglings do, can avoid this, but if they can’t leave or don’t want to leave for whatever reason, then incest is not something that they avoid out of instinct.
d) They are not superhuman, or superanimal. They can run about forty miles per hour, but only for very short periods, usually in the last stages of a hunt. They’re more creatures of stamina, and may well keep up a steady pace for eight or nine hours at a time without lagging.
e) Wolves are not violent all the time. The social signals like baring their bellies, snarling when a low-ranker steps over the line, licking the nose and jaws of the alpha, etc., are meant to set up boundaries so they can avoid conflict.
f) If your werewolf character is not the alpha male or female in a pack, the chance that he or she will be breeding is slim to nonexistent. Alpha females can and will harass other fertile females during the breeding season, so that they don’t get a chance to mate if they go into heat.
g) Wolves don’t have a cozy family life from the moment they’re born. The pups are born blind and deaf, and the mother keeps them in the den for the first six to eight weeks of their lives. The male is permitted to bring food in, but not to come too close, in case he eats them.
h) Oh, yes, and about feeding the pups once they’re weaned? Adult wolves will eat from a kill, then trot back to the den and regurgitate food for the pups. No, it’s not romantic.

Know these things before you write with seriousness about werewolf packs that “are just like real wolves!” and are democracies where all the men and women mate for life and have children all the time.

3) I am werecreature! Listen to me whine! Don’t authors ever get tired of having their shapeshifters angst? Specifically, do they ever get tired of having them angst about changing shape?

No! They do not!! He is a werewolf, and he is not whiny, he is noble and tormented!!! She’s a weretiger, and she’s not angsty, she’s suffering!!!!

*Limyaael gets out the axe again*

Look. Yes, there are contexts where a shapeshifter might feel uncomfortable about shapeshifting, if there are legends of his people’s cruelty (why? What are they? Don’t just copy Earth’s), or he’s been reared among humans and not his own kind (why? What happened to his parents? Why doesn’t he leave to go somewhere else if he’s that torn up about it?). But when that context becomes the whole of the shapeshifter’s reason for being, once again you haven’t got a complete character. You’ve got a Poster Child for Angst, the same way you do when you have a gay character who’s always angsting about his sexuality.

Stop it. Make your character a person, not a whiny werewolf.

4) Where does the mass go? This is not actually something I have a problem with all the time. If the author provides a completely magical explanation for the shapeshifter’s change, like the character’s mind leaping between two separate human and wolf bodies, or the character using an animal skin to change, a la Celtic selkies, no, I have no problem. There are certain rules fantasy has got to accept, and a well-defined system of magic is one of them. (If it’s not well-defined, on the other hand…)

Most fantasy authors, however, don’t take advantage of the completely magical explanation. Oh, sure, it’s magic. But what happens is the character’s body literally growing fur, a tail, wolf ears, or whatever.

I want to know where the mass goes.

If the creature is relatively near human size, say a dolphin or a leopard, I could accept that the mass is small enough not to matter. But what happens when you have the character somehow “rearranging his bones” into a small cat? Or a mouse? Or, to take the other end of the scale, a dragon?

Give this system some rules, please. It’s to the point that I just roll my eyes at the refusal of the authors to explain anything, because it’s so predictable. Magic in other systems in the book often does have rules. Yet shapeshifting is somehow to be exempted from this.

Quite often, that leads shapeshifting in the direction of deus ex machina. Oops, they kicked the character off a roof, but that’s all right, she can change into a dragon and fly!

Really? In midair? While falling, perhaps head-down? Can she do it in the few seconds it will take her to fall thirty feet?

Also, take some of the other practical aspects into consideration. A favorite trick of authors with shapeshifter characters is to ignore clothes altogether. They just vanish with the character, and then come back again when the character transforms into human, so that she’s never naked. (Terry Pratchett’s portrayal of the werewolf Angua is commendable here, because she does have to worry about where the clothes are going to go). Also, enemies who know the person is a shapeshifter are still incredibly stupid, because they continue to confine the shapeshifter in cells she can get out of it. Give them some credit, and have them put her in a cage, which should hold both humans and most animals.

5) Don’t over-valorize either the human or the animal. Fantasy shapeshifters are often shown to be more “noble” than those fucked-up humans, with their wars and stuff. Shapeshifters don’t care about that. They aren’t prejudiced, they don’t have wars, they concentrate on the simple realities of love and family, they kill only to eat, and so on. This is because they have the wonderful attributes of animals!

You might also want to consider that most animals don’t create, don’t have sex any time they want, don’t care about saving the world, don’t angst, don’t have concepts of courage or honor, don’t admire the sunset, don’t notice social injustice, and don’t make cross-species alliances.

Be honest here. The shapeshifter conception is fascinating because of its blending of human and animal. It can be terrifying, as in the picture of a wolf who can think like a human hunting you through the forests, or it can be interesting, like the idea that someone tries to balance her social life as a human with her social life as a dolphin, or it can be frustrating, in that some species, like leopards, don’t have anything like the social cohesion that humans have and trying to write about a wereleopard “society” presents challenges. But where in all that is throwing out the human and embracing the animal as pure and good and wonderful? That leaves just animals, not shapeshifters.

It’s also a dishonest compromise, because most of the time authors writing characters like this don’t actually give up the more “human” things. Their shapeshifters still have art, and a human society with concepts like justice and mercy and fairness. They don’t eat or abandon their young. They don’t practice anything that most humans would find repugnant, like theft or murder or incest. They just happen to lack all those bad traits the nasty humans have.

Come on. I’m no more interested in being lectured by perfect shapeshifters than I am in being lectured by perfect elves.

Embrace both the human and animal. It’s a lot more entertaining.



Next rant is on shapeshifter societies, I think.




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[info]inarticulate
2004-10-17 05:37 pm UTC (link)
Oooh, I like! =) The only thing I'd like to argue is the rigid social structure... it's not rigid like human societies. Wolves, like most animals, have a lot going for them instinct wise, so it probably wouldn't be talked about. It just happens.

Also, the ones who are in charge aren't the ones who make a lot of fuss and posture a lot. Those are the stupid ones who WANT to be in charge, generally. And if they ARE in charge, they're generally bad at it. The good leaders are the ones who know what they're doing and know how to get others to submit to them without making a show all of the time.

You mentioned the regurgitation THANK YOU. Also, young wolves pee on cue as a form of submission. Dogs too. ;) Not pretty. Not sexy. Not angsty, unless the wolf is peeing in submission to a teacher at school, and whoops! the whole class is there.

I prefer a mix of human and animal as a general rule if you're mixing the two, but I'd love to see more people work that in. And a big fat word on the angst and the perfect shapeshifters and the cute.

(I will never be able to explain the mass, though, because I'll never be able to think about it logically without remembering the Animorphs. Ah, nostalgia. ;) )

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[info]limyaael
2004-10-17 05:44 pm UTC (link)
The wolves who are in charge do show the signals, though- like accepting nose and jaw-licking from their subordinates, and snarling if they're eating and a low-ranker is too brash. They just aren't as violent as a lot of people seem to believe, because the low-rankers don't challenge them as often as would happen in a human society.

Forgot the peeing. That adds a whole new dimension, doesn't it?

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(no subject) - [info]inarticulate, 2004-10-17 05:53 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]wireandroses, 2004-10-17 06:12 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]inarticulate, 2004-10-17 06:13 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]vyctori, 2004-10-17 06:53 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]wireandroses, 2004-10-17 07:59 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]kdorian, 2004-10-17 07:48 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]wireandroses, 2004-10-17 07:58 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]otakukeith, 2004-10-18 02:07 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2004-10-18 07:57 pm UTC

[info]youraugustine
2004-10-17 05:43 pm UTC (link)
<-- werewolf author.

2 - they're an honest to gods mix between the two. Most of the times, it's a good mix, and those mixes are allowed to go on and become part of the general Pack/gene pool. Sometimes, it's a bad mix, and they're killed offhand. But the baseline/common mix is a truly RANDOM one. (It also used to be even more random, which caused a cull of an entire generation of werewolves and their Father seeking outside help to get them stabilised, and signing away his autonomy for several hundred years to pay for it. Anyway.)

3 - ::chuckles:: Mine tend to think that being Pack is the best damn thing in the world. You heal fast, you're stronger in human form, you get to be wolf-shaped, which is Too Cool, you can't die of anything except silver and your lifespan gets doubled.

4 - Maaagic. Although only what is actually a PART of them shifts. Which means they're naked as Adam when they shift back, and if they don't get naked first, there's a rather unhappy wolf tangled up in jeans and tshirts.

5 - Nope. Never had that problem. Silly people. "Nature red in tooth and claw."

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[info]limyaael
2004-10-17 05:58 pm UTC (link)
I think I could accept the magic explanation better if it just seemed to have any rules. For example, if a shapeshifter eats before he or she shifts, and gets energy, does that mean that being hungry or weak or injured or sick will trap them in one form or another? Nope! The author merrily violates her own rules for the sake of making the character look good. It's annoying.

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[info]wireandroses
2004-10-17 05:43 pm UTC (link)
"Also, take some of the other practical aspects into consideration. A favorite trick of authors with shapeshifter characters is to ignore clothes altogether. They just vanish with the character, and then come back again when the character transforms into human, so that she’s never naked. "

like ANIMORPHS! i stopped being able to stand those books when i went "hold up. they change because of DNA, but somehow they retain all their acquired characteristics when they change - except injuries. and they can wear clothes as long as they're TIGHT?!" i felt like they should have been babies when they changed, or else kept their injuries - either exactly the same as the last time they were human, or pure DNA. embryos, even. and i did NOT like the cop-out of wearing leotards. grrrr.

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[info]limyaael
2004-10-17 06:00 pm UTC (link)
*snicker* Many people writing shapeshifter characters seem to have no concept of biology, evolutionary or not. I've read books where people had shapeshifter children because they were bitten by werewolves. Well, okay, but that means that the disease would have to pass in through their genes and alter everything about them. And most of the time, the author treats it like magic, not a disease.

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(no subject) - [info]lemurkat, 2004-10-17 06:40 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]mysticpenguin, 2004-10-17 06:58 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]inarticulate, 2004-10-17 06:46 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]otakukeith, 2004-10-18 02:12 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]inarticulate, 2004-10-18 07:14 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]xianghua, 2004-10-18 09:00 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2004-10-18 07:58 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]calenturian, 2004-10-18 05:20 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]minervasolo, 2004-10-20 07:52 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]cygna_hime, 2004-10-18 05:26 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]wireandroses, 2004-10-18 06:35 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]cygna_hime, 2004-10-18 10:41 am UTC

[info]lemurkat
2004-10-17 06:36 pm UTC (link)
Kelley Armstrong got the combination of Wolf and human societies blended nicely. Her werewolves are the kind I commend - in wolf form they follow lupine instinct (ie: if it runs, chase it) but they don't turn into furry killing machines, there relationships with humans tend to be somewhat stilted and they have a very stringent hierachy.

My hyena creatures (not weres, just hyena-people) ritually eat their dead. Not that hyenas necessarily engage in that, but I'm definitely not trying to cutify my animal-people in that story. Of course, hyenas frequently kill their siblings before they leave the den (watching a poor mama hyena constantly dragging her cubs apart was quite distressing) and the spotted hyena actually hunts quite well in clans and scavenges less then people might think (lions often steal their kills).

It is almost impossible to scientifically describe shape-shifting. In terms of my writings, if I were to have a were-creature, it would retain the mass - being a fairly small and wiry human and a large wolf. The only other shape-shifting creatures I have had have been spiritual beings ie: magick. And magick can be used to explain a lot ^^

Wolves also frequently pee near cached food to disguise the scent and/or mark it as their's, if I recall correctly.

Kat

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[info]limyaael
2004-10-18 07:59 pm UTC (link)
Magic can be used to explain a lot. I just wish that authors would be more definite about it, particularly when they go to exhaustive efforts to explain the other magic in the story and then just wave their hands and say "Poof!" over shapeshifting.

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(no subject) - [info]lemurkat, 2004-10-18 10:31 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]tasllyn, 2004-10-20 06:45 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]tasllyn, 2004-10-20 06:46 pm UTC

[info]mysticpenguin
2004-10-17 06:42 pm UTC (link)
I've never really understood why authors feel the need to make their shapeshifters so angsty about their abilities. I kind of think that it would be at the least occasionally kind of fun. And half the time they never have any real problems resulting from it. I mean, they play their cards right and they could be famous for discovering a whole new set of rules for the behaviour of matter. IT can just vanish, it changes without using energy... damn. I wouldn't be complaining.

I have one actual shape-changing character, Laz Murphy. His magic works basically along the same lines as the silkie's, but he has part of a mountain lion pelt instead of a seal's. If anything, he thinks that being able to change form makes him better than everyone else. He's an obnoxious, swaggering bastard.


Of course Laz is my deliberate attempt to not make the typical stupid shapechanger mistakes (one of the things that I really, really want to work in someplace in the story is that he always has to deal with the urge to piss all over everything if he stays too long in cat form before changing back, or switches back and forth between the two too quickly. Unaltered tomcat, you know), so I don't know how much he counts.

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[info]wolfychan
2004-10-17 06:50 pm UTC (link)
Welp, shapeshifters are my big thing, sooo... how do they shape up According To Limyaael?

1) KILL THE CUTE. Done. None of my shapeshifters are cute in the least. Three of the four were human to begin with, so animal behaviour isn't really a concern. The fourth, however, is... sigh... a wolf. (Well, he thinks he's a wolf. It turns out he was born human but became a wolf when he was a few days old. So he's been socialized to wolfiness, but he's not a wolf per se.)

2) Go beyond werewolves, I beg you. Oops. On the plus side, I did a buttload of research into wolf behaviour, and yes, there is a scene where the guy shows his stomach and wets himself to show submission.

3) I am werecreature! Listen to me whine! My shapeshifters can control their changing and are secret from the world, so no need to whine. Well, about shapeshifting, anyway.

4) Where does the mass go? I plead magic. C'mon, next thing I know you'll be quoting the third law of thermodynamics on fire mages.

5) Don’t over-valorize either the human or the animal. Definitely not. My shapeshifters are hideously corrupt. Infinite power, and all that.

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[info]limyaael
2004-10-18 08:00 pm UTC (link)
4) Make it well-explained magic, please. The shifting of mass into another dimension, as several people have pointed out in comments here, is at least more believable than the idea that the human can somehow shrink or grow at will as well as change into a different species.

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Mass
[info]shadenv
2004-10-17 06:51 pm UTC (link)
This is perhaps about the only reason why I really loved Mercedes Lackey when she teamed up with Andrew Norton and wrote the "Elven Bane" books. Dragons were shape shifters. They actually shifted their mass into the "Out" (which I assume is something like the 4th demension or somesuch, they never explained it sufficiently) or else they'd be this dragon-sized whatever. If it was a pregnant dragon (warm blooded and gave live birth, appearantly, which makes no sense to me) the fetus instinctually shifted forms to match it's mother's form. Human mages and elves eventually learned to distinguish shape-changed dragons by "looking" for the extra mass in the "Out," so they weren't totally indistinguishable from the Real McCoy. That book featured neat dragons and elves, but Lackey & Norton's plots and characters lacked originality.

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Re: Mass
[info]shadenv
2004-10-17 06:52 pm UTC (link)
Pardon. *Andre* Norton.

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Re: Mass - [info]tasllyn, 2004-10-20 06:53 pm UTC

[info]trinity_clare
2004-10-17 07:02 pm UTC (link)
While you're on the subject of shapeshifting, how do you feel about people who can change their appearance? Not into an animal, just into a different-looking person. Full of Mary Sue opportunities, but not if done right, I think.

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[info]limyaael
2004-10-18 08:02 pm UTC (link)
I think that it has to have limits. For example, if the shapeshifter can just change her face whenever she wants, to whatever she wants, then no one could recognize or stop her if she was, say, committing a crime. Give it energy limitations, say she can only change to a face she's actually seen (which would mean that finding the other person would at least alert other people that something was wrong), make it so that she can't do things like have non-natural eye or hair colors, or other-species traits...something.

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(no subject) - [info]trinity_clare, 2004-10-18 08:28 pm UTC
Though it's more sci-fi than fantasy
[info]ficangel
2004-10-17 07:25 pm UTC (link)
And, lord, but I'm revealing my geek here, but K.A. Applegate's Animorphs series was an excellent YA venture that really thought about and dealt with all of these issues-especially when it came to the instincts of the animal and the problems of extra mass.

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Re: Though it's more sci-fi than fantasy
[info]otakukeith
2004-10-18 02:15 am UTC (link)
Note the post above bashing Animorphs for copping out on clothes issues. ;)

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Re: Though it's more sci-fi than fantasy - [info]ficangel, 2004-10-18 11:53 am UTC

[info]paradoxhorizon
2004-10-17 07:46 pm UTC (link)
Good rant. I've written one werewolf story (to get it out of my system, mostly) and am currently trying to knock the rough edges off a different sort of shapeshifter.

1. No cute here. If the main character from the second story is ever cute, we are to immediately suspect he is up to something.
2. My non-werewolf character comes from a society/species which evolved into something close to human from a species that used its shapeshifting abilities in a prey/predator thing and now uses it primarily for fashion.
My werewolves were cliche-ridden, but a big part of the story was a hierarchy issue. And the alpha male was definately screwing his sister because she was the alpha female.
3. No whining allowed.
4. I am puzzling this one out for the non-werewolf story. Mostly, they change into things with similar mass, but I need to work out the details. As for clothes. The non-werewolves (who need a name) often grow clothes the same as they might grow antlers or fins or whatever. And the werewolves wandered around naked a lot if they didn't happen to have any clothes handy. Naked people are fun. I can't understand why anyone would cheat themselves out of that.
5. None of my shapeshifters are in any way inherantly more noble than humans.

I can see I still have stuff to work on, though, to keep my shapeshifters from being annoying.

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[info]kiena_tesedale
2004-10-17 08:02 pm UTC (link)
I'm pretty relieved - I was really worried when I saw you were doing a shifter rant. :) I'm only guilty of number four, like a lot of people - mass disappears thanks to magic, and clothing (or items being held, though that's a lot more difficult) disappears as well if the were-creature concentrates enough. My werecat is bad at that concentration, though, and if she's wearing anything bulky (like a jacket), it tends to get shredded and left behind. I have a whole elaborate magical explanation about it - but I don't think I'm going to manage to have the entire explanation in the story, because all the main characters already *know* the reasons, and there's no one they really would want to tell. Damn exposition. :)

Okay, and there's a little bit of angst, but it's due to the magic itself, not the shifting, and really, the two shifters are the least whiny characters in my story. They have it much better than the dead guy and insane fairy.

Still, I'm going to carefully reread this and possibly make a few changes. I really love your rants, even when I see something I'm doing and I curse. :)

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[info]limyaael
2004-10-18 08:04 pm UTC (link)
I think describing the process through the eyes of the shifters can serve as a credible substitute for the explanation. (Lots of authors do it from the outside instead, which I think is overdone; there just aren't that many horrific descriptions left anymore). Use a shifter who doesn't shift all that often, or make the sensations so sharp and different from "ordinary life" that they imprint themselves on the shifter's brain and can get described- the same way that even if you break a bone multiple times, each new time still hurts like hell.

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Shapeshifters According to D&D.
[info]isdestroyer
2004-10-17 08:20 pm UTC (link)
Well, I can show you up on the geek factor there.

I like the way Dungeons and Dragons deals with shapeshifting. First, Werewolves (or Were-anything).
Being a werewolf is a curse. It is described as a magical disease called lycanthropy. The overall term for a were-something is a lycanthrop (not sure if I'm spelling that right). When a person changes form, they go through excruciating pain and yes, their cloths do rip off. A werewolf is considered to be a dire wolf for determining size, in other words, a larger than normal wolf. It is also passed down through genes. If however, the person accepts the curse and becomes chaotic evil then the pain becomes pleasurable (though it still hurts). Werewolves are treated with suspicion and hatred and can never live a normal life. The curse/disease can be removed but only by magical means.

Now on shapeshifting in general.
Wizards of a certain level can cast the spells Polymorph Other and Polymorph Self to magically change forms. The magic does have its limitations though. For one, the wizard must have the spell prepared in order to cast it (wizards in D&D must study their spells before they can cast them) and they can only change into a form they have encountered before. They cannot just imagine something and change, they must have interacted with it first. For another, in regards to the mass, there are several size catagories in D&D. Fine, diminutive, tiny, small, medium, large, huge, gargantuan and colossal. The spells only allow a creature of a certain size to change into one size catagory larger or smaller than the castors' original size. For example, a medium castor could change into a small or large creature, but not a tiny or huge creature.

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Re: Shapeshifters According to D&D.
[info]isdestroyer
2004-10-17 08:25 pm UTC (link)
Oh and one other thing.

When the wizard casts the spell, any clothing and items that he had on him are incorporated into the form (essentially they disappear) and cannot be used while in that form.

Also, another drawback to the spell, when changing into the new form, if the wizard is unfamiliar with it, he is disorented for a while, until he becomes used to it.

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[info]kadaria
2004-10-17 08:47 pm UTC (link)
>KILL THE CUTE<
*Curls around* I love you forever.
I really can't stand cutsie cat girls or anything along those lines, especially when people try to tell "it's an anthro". No, it's not. It's a person with cat ears, get over it.
Of all my Kumiho chars, only one is "cute" (likes to play pranks, bubbly and cheerful all of them time) and she does it to be annoying. I allow her to do this because she is *really* old.

>Also, take some of the other practical aspects into consideration. A favorite trick of authors with shapeshifter characters is to ignore clothes altogether. <

I used to have this problem until I decided that my Kumiho only need clothing when in a human form (which is almost never). So now everyone is in the buff.

>I am werecreature! Listen to me whine! Don’t authors ever get tired of having their shapeshifters angst? Specifically, do they ever get tired of having them angst about changing shape?<

Am I exempt from this if the character is only upset about her inabilty to change her hair colour and hide the fact that she is albino (causing all others to cast her out and ostracize her)?



(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]limyaael
2004-10-18 08:05 pm UTC (link)
Well, I would think that they'd have to have a pretty good reason to cast her out for being albino; it doesn't sound like much of one just based on this description. Does she give them away by shining too white in the sun or something?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]kadaria, 2004-10-19 08:07 am UTC

[info]maureenlycaon
2004-10-17 08:50 pm UTC (link)
I confess: I was probably guilty of most if not all of these in the past. In my defense, though, at least some of it was Werewolf: the Apocalypse fanfiction.

Some of these things are the same things that furry fiction should consider more, too -- the blending of human and animal.

-red foxes will commit incest. A dog fox might well mate with a vixen he sired.

An interesting additional tidbit from Biological Exuberance: vixens will also mount their own mothers in lesbian sex. This is common, not an aberration.

And in lions, of course, no list of their unpleasant traits would be complete without mentioning infanticide. When a male takes over a pride and drives off the previous male, he systematically kills the cubs as well.

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[info]otakukeith
2004-10-18 02:03 am UTC (link)
-male dolphins and male horses do not treat the females of their species well or gently, and are likely to herd them with blows and bites.

I am never reading The Dolphins of Pern again. (Not that I was particularly planning to.)

Go beyond werewolves, I beg you. I usually don’t read books with werewolf characters anymore. The chances that the writer will do something new with them is extremely slim.

YES. My arch-nemesis in the Harry Potter fandom - a Big Name Fan whose absurd fanfics (which I MST) are incredibly popular - is planning to go professional by writing a werewolf novel. I haven't yet found a way to tell her that werewolves have been done to death to only a marginally smaller extent than vampires.

Hey, there's a good future rant. Vampires.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]otakukeith
2004-10-18 02:04 am UTC (link)
Oh, by the way, I've done an entry in my journal setting out the premise for the novel I plan to write for NaNoWriMo. If you have time, please let me know what you think. :)

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]klgaffney
2004-10-18 08:52 am UTC (link)
agree totally with the shifter rant. as always, research is your friend. *laaaughs* yeah, i had fun dealing with the clothing issue---my world's were-type things were created essentially for war purposes and it's rather annoying to have to pack a dozen uniforms for the critters--nevermind factoring in equipment loss. therefore they have what is dubbed as "highlander space" (that place where duncan's sword goes after he stashes it under his coat, because it sure as hell ain't there when he's running around in the next scene.) a certain amount of excess mass goes into the same dimensional pocket that the rest of the creature's four-legged two-armed form curls into--it can handle that , their clothing, a sword and dagger, and a *small* pack. it's a limited space. they can't say, drag a whole other person in there, or hide a supply wagon. =|

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[info]xianghua
2004-10-18 08:53 am UTC (link)
You know, I'm vaguely tempted to write a short story about a shapeshifter who keeps getting picked up by the dog catcher when he turns into a wolf- and his mother/family member/someone keeps having to convince AC that no, he's a husky, yes, here's his rabies shot, look, he's very well trained, he just KEEPS GETTING OUT please don't give us that expensive ticket for having a loose unneutered dog. Heh. Set it in LA, and it's be a Biiiiiiiig ticket, since I think they passed that mandatory spay neuter thing.

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[info]limyaael
2004-10-18 08:06 pm UTC (link)
I think that's a good idea. I am sadistic, and would probably take up the story after he'd been neutered, but yours sounds like more fun.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

well.... - [info]xianghua, 2004-10-18 09:19 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]criada, 2004-10-19 03:21 am UTC

[info]melarin
2004-10-18 09:12 am UTC (link)
One author that does this well is Tamora Pierce.
Daine, a Wild mage (her magic is centered on animals etc rather than making fire balls appear at will) and can change into animals, but it takes her the best part of the book to change completely *and* she has to practice. A lot. And it hurts. She obeys the rules of the animals she turns into and her clothes get left behind in a heap, causing some nice embarrassing moments when she changes back and forgets. The clothes also hamper her and she gets stuck in them sometimes, if she changes into an animal smaller than herself.
All in all a great rant ;) v. helpful.

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[info]minervasolo
2004-10-20 07:47 am UTC (link)
Oh, I loved those books. Haven't read them for ages. I always preferred the Wild Magic series to those centring on Alanna, though it was nice to see a YA author focusing on the biological problems with pretending to be a member of hte opposite sex.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

On Horses
[info]oath_of_feanor
2004-10-18 03:11 pm UTC (link)
In case you were interested, I've been around horses and people who know about horses all my life, and so I know some things!

1) Horses have a matriarchy. At the top of this is the alpha mare, and she is, in no uncertain terms, the bitch queen. There is strict order of hierarchy among mares. They always know which of the herd they are above and below.

2) There is one stallion per herd of mares. He mates with all the mares in the herd... when they feel like it. They feel like it when they're in heat. To indicate that they're in heat, they lift their tails and urinate a bit. There's a smell to it. When a stallion smells this, he'll generally curl back his upper lip - it's called horse laughing sometimes.

3) The function of a stallion in the herd is to mate with the mares, beat up any encroaching stallions, throw young stallions out of the herd, to protect, to some degree, and, when a herd is running away, to bite and kick anyone who isn't keeping up with the herd. The alpha mare leads the herd when they run away.

4) Bachelor herds of stallions also have a hierarchy, but they aren't so deadly serious as mares; they spar all the time and beat each other up for fun. When mares have a fight, it is savage. It doesn't happen very often. As a result, most the time mares will be all sleek and stallions will be all scarred up.

5) The horse way of saying "I give up, you win" is to move out of the other horse's space. Say, if the alpha mare steps toward you in a meaningful way, you would promptly move away. Leaning doessn't count. The front feet have to lift and be set down somewhere else. You will see horses herd each other around. The horse doing the herding is the alpha.

6) Stallions don't generally (there are always exceptions) beat up mares. In mounting a mare, a stallion puts something very sensitive in the way of her hind feet. Horses are very adept at kicking back with their hind feet.

The end!

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Amendment
[info]oath_of_feanor
2004-10-18 03:31 pm UTC (link)
7) When a horse pins its ears, it means for another horse to move out of its space.

8) Horses are prey animals. A mare will defend her foal as much as possible, but .. not always at the cost of her own life. Also, if something scares a horse, it runs away. Vroom! And if something prevents it from getting away, it struggles. And if a horse is really really scarred, it will kick and plunge and trample everyone around it to get away. Although, by preferences, most horses don't trample things.

9) Horses are scared of anything new. For example, if a horse has travelled the same road for two years, and one day, there is a ditch that wasn't there before, it will be scared. Maybe it will just shy (prick its ears at the object, show the whites of its eyes, and make a detour out of the things vicinity). If forced to go to the object of fright by an incompetent handler, the horse will generally dance aside anyway, or whirl and bolt the opposite direction for a stride or two.

10) The way to handle a horse is to always have the horse do what you tell it to. If a horse moves where you tell it to, you are the alpha. If you are not the alpha, then the horse assumes the role of alpha and is on the lookout for scary things. If the horse isn't the alpha, it lets you look for the scary things. And you are smarter and more reasonable than the horse.

11) I'm going on, aren't I? Stallions are a pain to handle. if they scent a mare in heat, they go get her, even if they have to fight someone off. Of course, you can teach them to mind their manners, and some of them do so very nicely. But you've always gotta watch it.

12) Last thing:
Mare - adult female horse
Stallion - adult male horse
Gelding - neutered male horse
Colt - Baby male horse (usually not gelded)
Filly - Baby female horse
Foal - Baby horse, no gender
Mane - Long hair along horse's neck
Tail - Duh
Forelock - Hair that hangs down horse's face
Hooves - Feet
Walk - Duh
Trot - Two beat gait, jolting, but is easily maintained
Canter - Smooth, fast gait, three beats
Gallop - four beat gait, as fast as the horse can go
Bridle - Leather (usually) device that fits over the horse's head when it is ridden
Bit - Piece of metal that goes in the horse's mouth. No, they aren't cruel unless the rider is an idiot and jerks on the reins
Reins - pieces of leather that the rider holds. They are connected to the bit.
Girth - Holds the saddle on. Also called a cinch. Or a strap?
Strirrups - Where your feet go when you're in the saddle
Pommel - front rise of the saddle
Cantle - Back rise of a saddle

You don't kick a horse in the flanks unless you're an idiot. The flanks are about a foot and a half behind where your leg is. You generally nudge them lightly in the side or in the barrel, if you want to be technical.

Now, I really am done!

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Re: Amendment - [info]tasllyn, 2004-10-20 07:50 pm UTC
Junk DNA
[info]bbhtryoink
2004-10-18 03:19 pm UTC (link)
I'm surprised you didn't mention the crossbreeding facets of shapeshifters. (Like, can a shapeshifter mate with either another human, or with another natural animal of the species that he/she can shift into? Both or neither?)

I'd just like to offer a possible explanation that I actually thought up in biology class, that would make these sort of matings biologically possible. Currently, not a whole lot about DNA is known, and there is a great deal of what is called "junk DNA" in many animals: If an animal is born without this DNA, either through a biological accident or because scientists removed the DNA when the animal was an embryo, then there are no discernable differences between an animal with this DNA and an animal without it.

So I started thinking, what if this DNA was involved in shapeshifting? Its possible that, for instance, the entire genetic code of a wolf is embedded in this "junk DNA," and shapeshifting simply involves "turning on" the wolf DNA and "turning off" the human DNA. If you used that premise in a shapeshifting story, mating with both humans and wolves would be entirely possible, because the shapeshifter would be both complete wolf and complete human. Now, if pregnancy occured, I'm not sure what would happened if the mother shifted, but you can decide that yourself. :)

Just though I'd share what seemed like a fascinating idea on this topic!

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Junk DNA
[info]limyaael
2004-10-18 08:08 pm UTC (link)
I've already covered my feelings about half-breed heroes in a few previous rants, so I didn't think I'd touch on it here. Besides, there I am pretty lenient, since how shapeshifters came to be in the first place is either magic or bestiality, pretty much. The only thing I would insist on the author answering is how, if a werewolf in human form mated with a wolf, the mother could possibly get pregnant. I do think the mating should happen when the werecreature is in the form of the other creature, animal or human.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Re: Junk DNA - [info]kadaria, 2004-10-19 08:26 am UTC

[info]suzene
2004-10-18 06:08 pm UTC (link)
Well done!

There's a shapeshifter cameo in Spider Robinson's 'Callahan's Lady' that handles aspects point four in a way most shifter-writing authors don't seem to like contemplating. The problem of mass isn't really addressed (perhaps because the shifter, Charles the werebeagle, is a very minor character), but the clothes do have to come off and, since the beagle's bowels are smaller than a human's, poor Charles leaves a small pile of smelly evidence behind each time he changes.

OK, sue me, I thought it was neat...XD

Suzene

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(Anonymous)
2004-10-18 09:16 pm UTC (link)
Must... reply...
I don't follow much in the way of mammalian social and instinctual behaviors; I go in more for birds. There's some fascinating social dynamics and behaviors there that could be worked with: multi-species flocks, social status defined through singing skill (in some species, variety and creativity are what's valued most highly in a song), a number of seabirds which mate for life but pairs live apart except during the mating season, the whole idea of breeding colonies, and a number of other things that don't usually exist in mammalian society...
Also, there tends to be a lot less peeing. : ) Most birds DON'T actually pee; they excrete crystallized urea along with the feces. Much more efficient. And it's not a major component of their social lives; mostly they use vocalizations and visual displays for social interaction.
But I think making them part human would *detract* from all that, not add to it. Giving bird characters enough human traits that a human audience can understand them, a la Watership Down, is one thing. Having them take human form? Nah, that's just a cop-out. : P

One of my favorite serieses (sp?) involves a shapeshifting character, but he isn't like the "were-animal" type. He's made of a sort of protoplasmic gel, and while he can reshape himself however he likes (and apparently gain and lose mass), he can't change his composition. He's always the same color and texture. Most of the time he looks as human as he can, since he's around humans and interacts with them, but he doesn't take on other animal forms-- if he needed to get through a small space, for instance, he wouldn't turn into a mouse or something. He'd turn liquid and flow through. Clothing isn't an issue, because he doesn't wear any-- although he forms a simulation of it in human-ish form.
His gooey composition gives him some other abilities, such as being able to merge with other beings and survive being vaporized-- but I thought I'd mention him as an example of a different type of shapeshifter.

The clothing and mass issues I don't have a problem with, as long as the method of shapeshifting is "magical" enough to get around such mundane issues. If it's a matter of switching one "thought form" or "mode of being" for another, then mass shouldn't matter, and clothing can be thought of as part of the human self-image or whatever. But if it starts talking about DNA and tissue reshaping, then it's getting too "realistic" or "sciencey" to ignore mass and clothing.

Final thought for now: Why are there so many shapeshifters who turn into animals (mammals for the most part), and not as many who turn into things like water, wind, light, sound, or some sort of machine? I think those would be interesting forms to shift into.

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[info]tasllyn
2004-10-20 07:56 pm UTC (link)
i have four clans of unicorns that can turn elemental - one can turn into fire, one water, one earth, and one wind - but only for limited amounts of time. they can also take human form. is that the type of shapeshifting you were thinking of?

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[info]syphilis_jane
2004-10-19 12:39 am UTC (link)
trot back to the den and regurgitate food for the pups
For that matter, In many times/places in real life, people fed babies by chewing up food for them until they could handle solids. So whether they're shapeshifters or not, why don't you see more scenes in fantasy where a grandmother spits chewed-up food into a baby's mouth? It's not like these people have Gerber.

(Reply to this)

I <3 animal behavior class...
[info]kadaria
2004-10-19 08:19 am UTC (link)
Oh hey, another research point concerning groups or families of animals.
The majority of them, including horses and dolphins are matriarchal because the females gain more fitness through inclusive fitness (the idea that you can pass on at least some of your genes by helping your mother or sister raise offspring). Males gain more fitness by being transient or sticking with a group until he is removed by another male. So no, the stallions do not rule the herd or really even own the band of mares. The top mare is the one who decides where they go and what they do.
And you're right, horses and other hooved animals will engage in "sexual harrassment" in order to mate (this is why we like AI in the equine managment world). The best factoid I can think of for this is that mountain goats will actually rape a female repeatedly if she has already mated with another male.

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[info]minervasolo
2004-10-20 07:44 am UTC (link)
red foxes will commit incest. A dog fox might well mate with a vixen he sired.

They never mentioned that in the Animals of Farthing Wood!!

I liked Kelley Armstrong's werewolves, but Laurell K Hamilton's are grating, thanks to Anita Sue and her everchanging array of were powers without any of the setbacks. I've always preferred complete transformations to partial (Oz in Buffy always made me laugh more than anything else), but no transformations at all combined with super spiffy animal powers is just pointless.

I've been playing with the ideas of werewolves recently. Already angsty character gets bitten and kills his boyfriend when he first changes. Ends up with the wolf pack and tries to keep angsting, but gets knocked around by the alpha male for it. A lot. There's also a sharp division between those born as werewolves and those who were turned. Convincing those who were born to wear clothes is like trying to explain why people should feed birds in the winter to an aquatic society.

The problem is once you've come up with a different culture for them that matches the wolf side (no use of names, for example, a primarily non-verbal language even in human form and absolutely no issues with nudity) you find yourself drowning in pronouns and baffled human characters. Putting a wolf brain in a human body tends to lead to a lot of "But I'm bigger and stronger than you, why aren't you listening? I will bite you if you don't shut up about these cloth things and listen to me" moments.

One reason I do like werewolves is the moon issues. You can play around with all sorts of scientific explanations for the change, especially involving gravity. Humans may have noticed the change is to do with the moon, but made a guess and said full moon because they don't understand it properly. There's a lot of legend surrounding werewolves (and my other current favourite, selkies) that doesn't work to their advantage. It makes it harder for an author to come in and create a shapeshifter with no problems whatsoever. Most were animals made up on the spur of the moment because the author thought it would be oh so cool to have their princess turn into a giraffe lack any serious kind of drawbacks. I'd rather see appropriation of real myths and legends, even if they're unlikely to occur in that world, than completely unexplained metamorphs. Certain animals, usually the dominant predators of the region, crop up in these myths most often for a reason. There's already a fear and prejudice surrounding them, and they often have this knack of disappearing very quickly.

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