Limyaael ([info]limyaael) wrote,
@ 2004-10-19 23:03:00
Previous Entry  Add to memories!  Tell a Friend!  Next Entry
Current mood: tired
Entry tags:fantasy rants: autumn 2004, rants on nonhumans

Rant on shapeshifter societies
This rant is on shapeshifter societies.



Obvious, of course, but for some reason it doesn't seem to apply outside the actual shapeshifting magic. Then, the shapeshifters often behave like complete humans or complete animals, even when living in a society of their own.

1) Think about government. Think about it carefully. I think the best choice would be a mix between the two, or at least something more flexible than a strict human monarchy or a strict hierarchical system. If you think about it, a shapeshifter society is facing challenges that no other will, because it has to deal with people who are not confined to one body. That necessitates planning on the author's part for magic, but it also necessitates more careful social engineering.

How would a werewolf society- I know I ranted about people using werewolves only, but bear with me a moment- modeled strictly after a pack deal with someone turning back to human in the middle of a status fight? The changing werewolf might lose or he might win, depending on the situation, but what does his rank in the pack become after that? Has he used an unfair advantage, or disadvantage? Has he broken a rule by becoming human in such a situation, the same way that a low-ranker might by inching too close while the alphas eat? Does he have one rank while human, especially if he's bigger and stronger than most of the other werewolves, and one while he's lupine? Could someone be alpha who was a large wolf, but is less clever than the rest, and perhaps prone to being tricked by shapeshifters who are just as intelligent as normal humans?

You see how very quickly the situation becomes complicated, and that's a relatively simple example. With animals who have even more complex social structures, say bees in a hive, it can turn into a mess. Add in human complexities- for example, if the shapeshifters have designated mating seasons, is everyone compelled to mate, or would some of the leaders regulate it to make sure that unwilling females wouldn't be raped?- and it could upgrade to a Bloody Big Complication.

A shapeshifter society will have to have a government, whether that's by rank or a system of elders or gender or color or whatever, that takes into account their own people not being one thing all the time.

2) Show the relationship they have to both normal humans and normal animals. Unsurprisingly, maybe, most shapeshifters are often portrayed in relation to humans alone. These shapeshifters are usually gosh-golly-wow so much better, and have nobler ideals, lead simpler lives, are more in touch with the land, etc. (I don't think this is unique to shapeshifters, by the way; I think it's a manifestation of what seems to happen in any fantasy the moment a certain group of characters are portrayed as having longer lives, better magic, more involved gods, stronger destinies, etc. Somehow, they are now morally better, too. It happens with elves, Chosen heroes, persecuted religious and magical groups, and everyone else across the spectrum).

Do try to make it more complicated than that. Perhaps, just perhaps, the humans have good reason to hate or envy the shapeshifters. If the shapeshifters have warred on them in the past, or if they're the kind of animal that can eat humans, they certainly do. (I always wanted to see what would happen if a tribe of humans lived near a tribe of werejaguars, which are known among the great cats for being human-eaters). Possibly the humans have hunted and killed shapeshifters in the past in animal form, but for some reason other than the usual "mindless hatred" reason. Perhaps the shapeshifters are a prey animal. Perhaps they have valuable coats. (Hello, reversal of the werejaguar paradigm). It could easily be a war on both sides, or tense but peaceful on both sides, not just the humans hunting the persecuted shapeshifters.

As for normal animals...well, do the shapeshifters smell different? Look different? Behave differently? They probably would, and even if they look completely like a normal animal in beast form, they might easily send the truly normal animals into panic by changing back in front of them. Also, what happens if shapeshifters and "normal" ones of their kind are living in an area with limited food and competing for the same ecological niche? It might get nasty.

3) Consider structures. We'll take up werehorses this time. A stable would probably not be their first choice, especially when living in the wild. On the other hand, sleeping out in the grass and the dew could easily do damage to normal human skin, and if there are limits on the shapeshifting magic- which I think have to be there, or it really does become a deus ex machina- then they might not always have the option of changing back to horse to get away from the weather. On the third hand, build a normal human house, and shapeshifters in horse form will have problems with stairs and doors.

One possible compromise? Build a house-like structure, with a roof, and open sides so that the shifters in horse form can freely pass in and out. Ramps, instead of stairs, could lead from level to level. The inner rooms could be contained on several sides and sheltered from the weather, yet left open enough to insure the passage of an animal larger and taller than a human. There probably wouldn't be a lot of furniture or clutter, since sweeping tails and hooves, or possibly shifting itself, could knock it over. Instead of a bed, of either feathers or straw, there might be low cushions that would provide a comfortable sleeping place for a human and not get in the way of a horse.

All of this will depend on the species of shapeshifter that you choose, of course, and how often they change. I'm trying to imagine a true compromise here, since most books I've read about shapeshifters show them changing form fairly often, not, say, living exactly as a horse herd does and only changing back to human when they absolutely have to.

4) How does the food move around? If the shapeshifters are living exactly like animals, no problem (unless they're having to compete with similar animals, of course). Living exactly as a normal human village? Then we can probably assume they practice normal agriculture and the like, perhaps only changing into their animal forms for a bit of brisk flight or a run. But if they're compromising, or living separately from both humans and their animal phenotype because it's necessary...ah.

How do they eat?

It might be easy to say that these wereleopards slip into the forest every night and hunt down game, but again, it only works if each wereleopard has a separate territory- the case for natural leopards, except mothers with cubs- or if they're willing to wander. If they hunt only from a settled location, and they're numerous enough, the food would get depleted pretty quickly. Also, if they reproduce like normal humans instead of leopards, and take care of their children well enough that most survive (although see point 5), then the problem becomes even worse.

Why not have the wereleopards keep a somewhat tame herd of antelope or other prey, the way that kings used to keep a wood of deer? That way, they could know where the prey animals were fairly quickly, which might be essential when raising children; they could keep an eye on how the numbers were growing and how diminishing; and they could always let them out of whatever enclosure they were kept in, if they were fenced at all, when they wanted a chase.

For herbivores, compromise and have gardens. The gardens don't have to be grown just like human ones. Indeed, if the plants are different enough from ones that humans normally cultivate, they can't be. But, again, it would provide a more reliable food source, essential if the group of shapeshifters are going to live settled.

5) Consider the raising of children. Most animal family structures are radically different from the human one, and don't share the Western idea that two parents and children naturally belong together. Wolves raise their children, who may stay with the pack for a few years but then often strike out on their own. Remember, as long as they remain in the pack, the chances that they'll get to mate and have pups of their own are slim to none, given the alphas' control of their subordinates' fertility. Leopards are usually 'love 'em and leave 'em' in the sense that the mother mates, then rears the (usually one or two) cubs on her own, while the father wanders elsewhere. Red fox vixens are more likely to be rooted, with daughters not wandering far before establishing their earths, while the young dogs have to leave home to find territories and mates of their own.

If the family structure is a true compromise, and especially if shapeshifter children take as long to grow up as normal human children (probable, if their lives are human-normal or longer), then the mother wereleopard might well accept help from the father in raising the children. Again, though, it's not necessary. Perhaps in this wereleopard society, two expecting females will band together and raise their children in a two-mother family. Perhaps they will have several males around; they might be more casual about the concept of fatherhood. Perhaps they will live in the society with other shifters the rest of the time but retreat to the jungle or desert while the cubs are young, in order to prevent any danger of the older shifters killing them. This could depend on whether the shifters are born in human or animal form, too. Human form seems preferred, but again, there's no inherent reason for that.

I suppose this might be one reason that group animals like wolves are so popular to make shapeshifters out of. The writer doesn't have to wander quite as far from "normal" human families. Do consider it, though.

6) Consider how much social cohesion they have. This is a problem when you've got leopards, who are often solitary except if they're females raising cubs, and humans, who are often not alone unless they have no choice. A naturally solitary wereleopard is certainly a possibility, but so are naturally gregarious ones. How do they negotiate between the conflicting species instincts?

You could split it up by location. Perhaps they regularly hunt alone, but the settlement is considered anybody's space, and if a person wants to leave, they should just leave. Perhaps the society is open enough that anyone feeling the urge can just wander in and out as she pleases. Perhaps priority is granted to mothers with cubs, and so other wereleopards will be available for them, but the rest tend to form companionship based on individual choice (friendship could take on a whole new meaning when you don't have many siblings and weren't reared around a whole lot of children your own age).

The point, again, is not to split up the animal and the human. Shapeshifters are at heart both, or have the possibility to be. And, she added in a snobby voice, I think it's much more interesting when they're both, rather than humans with enhanced senses or animals with hands.



I think the next rant will be on handling disabled characters.




(Post a new comment)


[info]troubadour118
2004-10-19 08:46 pm UTC (link)
Reiterating the love for the rants, because that is how awesome they are. <3.

Also: I had to put my comments for Bloodlike Blossoms in a you-filtered entry on my journal because they were too big for the reply box. XD They're here!

(Reply to this)


[info]sparrow_wings
2004-10-19 09:34 pm UTC (link)
Interesting, especially the bit about social structures. I'd thought about giving one set of characters some of the physical aspects of birds, but I hadn't considered the social side, especially since it would be many kinds of birds in the same space...

I think the next rant will be on handling disabled characters. Looking forward to it!

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]limyaael
2004-10-20 12:29 pm UTC (link)
I know I've read about mixed-species flocks of birds somewhere or other; I just don't remember where I read it. *frustrated* You might consider why they've banded together, and if perhaps they would put aside differences in the name of a common threat; for example, with monkeys, there are several different kinds that travel together, eating different foods, and always on the watch for enemies, so that a leopard lying below one tree alerts all the species into a frenzy.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]sparrow_wings
2004-10-20 07:49 pm UTC (link)
[nods] Thanks. I know that birds do something similar to your monkey example.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]youraugustine
2004-10-19 09:54 pm UTC (link)
1 - heh. Human-shift in proper dominance-fight is a sign of submission. In hostile takeovers, it's just another fighting strategy. Part of what my werewolves have done is make a lot of things very ritualised; their wolf-brains (as they call them) are as much a hindrance as a help, half the time, so they've figured out very specific ways of controlling it. Normal dominance-fights are veery ritualised, and done in only wolf-form. Hostile takeovers are usually only done in crisis situations, and must be ratified by the Father after the crisis has passed.

2 - other humans and other wolves alike tend to be weirded out. Humans tend to be able to sense the pack-ness, no matter how well the specific pack has their status hidden, the sense that something is . . off. To other wolves, they just frankly don't smell right, and "real" wolves will avoid them if they can.

3 - I'm too lazy to dig out my notes on exactly what the territory size necessary is, but it's big; it's usually worked around the pack being in a rural/semi-rural/forestry/etc area. Generally focused around one or two large houses. Wolves, though, are fairly mobile within human structures. Just can't use round doornobs.

4 - mostly, they feed in human form - just flatly easier. They can hunt-without-kill whenever they feel the need (play-hunt, hunt each other, some of them even having "normal" human friends/companions to play "prey"); it's up to the individual packleaders of a territory to figure out how much hunt-to-kill their territory can support.

5 - not much to say. What children there are, are mass-raised once the mother has got over the killanythingthatcomesclose stage.

6 - Amen. :3

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]limyaael
2004-10-20 12:37 pm UTC (link)
1) What would happen if a wolf wanted to dominance-fight, but was prevented from changing by injury? Would they just get cuffed and told to wait? Has anyone ever insisted on fighting in lupine form even when not up to capacity to do so?

2) What is it that humans sense? Do they have any of the class physical characteristics of werewolves? (One brow, long pointer finger, hair on the palms, etc.)

3) Yep, wolves are mobile. I wonder if they lived near enough to a city, though, wouldn't someone eventually notice, "Wait, those aren't dogs"?

4) I think it would be easier in human form, too, but a lot of shapeshifter authors seem to like to write hunts.

5) Do they turn out any differently than human children? Socially, I mention, or emotionally.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]youraugustine
2004-10-20 12:51 pm UTC (link)
1 - Essentially, and yes. If you take a fight for any kind of status/dominance in other than solely wolf-form, it gets appealed; if the Father (also known as the Packleader-with-a-capital-p, but anyway) doesn't come down on your side, you're fucked and driven out . . which usually amounts to a deathsentence. It's one of those situations where they live so close to the edge of chaos (as it were, as a society) that the rules that they do have are ironclad.

2 - No, mostly subtler. There is a lupine-canine slant to a lot of their actions; one of the ones I watch all the time is the wolf-pack-sprawl-after-eating. There's also the sense of their being a pack-group; even if they have other friends, you can see where the lines will snap shut against outsiders. If feeling guilty, they'll turn their heads to the side, exposing their throats. Nothing overt just . . .off. (which, randomly, is another thing very underrated in fiction. people do not HAVE to be GLARINGLY DIFFERENT to get excluded/picked on. You just really have to be a little bit . . .off. It often works even better that way, because the watchers can't identify what about you drives them nuts, so they never pay attention and compensate fo rit. Anyway.)

3 - Been known to happen. It usually means the pack is then In Big Trouble.

4 - Well, of course. ::laughs:: So do I - I like writing their play-hunts. But I'm also pragmatic-brained enough to know that they can't hunt like that constantly and consistantly without a) tipping off humans and b) depleting their prey. So.

5 - very much with the packness mentioned up in 2. The differences, again, aren't overt, as much because they can't shift until they hit puberty - the hormone balances aren't right (likewise, a menstruating female can't shift and neither can a pregnant one. this makes for absolutely miserable and miserable-to-be-around women during the full moon, sometimes.) They tend not to have the sense of mother-father-me-family, but their sense of pack-family is ironclad; when they hit puberty and leave their birthpack (most of them do, but not all), the sense of loss of that pack-family is what tends to drive them to find/make a new one.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]maureenlycaon
2004-10-19 11:57 pm UTC (link)
Perhaps in this wereleopard society, two expecting females will band together and raise their children in a two-mother family. Perhaps they will have several males around; they might be more casual about the concept of fatherhood.

You appear to have hit something intuitively. :-) Hyena and cat societies (when the latter form societies at all) are based not on the mated male-female pair like wolves, but on sisters raising their young together.

In a furry world I'm building (a lot of the problems with writing shapeshifters and realistic furries are the same), there are cultures of both anthropomorphic lions and spotted hyenas (and wolves, and foxes).

Among hyenas, the males have much lower status than the females, and most live in a separate village on the outskirts of the main one, called an eetai'oo. The real reason for this has to do with vague memories of male hyenas posting a danger to cubs before they became sentient, but the cultural rationale is that it's somehow dishonorable to leave cubs alone with lowly males.

Among the lions, the males are dominant over the lionesses, but usually they don't concern themselves with day-to-day affairs. If there's a war involving enemy males, however, they are expected to come out and fight to the death to defend their village. Females who are pregnant or have very young cubs live in a separate village of their own, the rahee.

Both species raise livestock. "Real", non-sentient lions and hyenas do still exist, but not anywhere near the settled lands -- the more intelligent and tool-using furries have long since wiped them out.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]limyaael
2004-10-20 12:40 pm UTC (link)
Heh. Go me, then. And I hope other people use it. I've read far too many animal ocieties with a happy Mom and Pop and kids.

Good luck on the lions and hyenas. Do male lions ever kill the cubs, or does the females living apart prevent that from ever happening?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]maureenlycaon
2004-10-21 03:56 am UTC (link)
I think these animal nuclear families are partly a hangover from the visits to the zoo so many kids had, where the parents go "There's the mommy deer and the daddy deer and the baby deer . . . There's the mommy lion and the daddy lion and the baby lions . . ." and so on. Even the little plastic animal figures come in male-female-young sets (with the male standing and the female usually sitting or lying).

(Yes, it's one of my pet peeves. Did you notice?)

On the lions: males may (rarely) injure or even kill a cub who becomes too annoying; for this reason, cubs are taught early not to "pester" the males. The lionesses are astonishingly copasetic about such casual child-killing. Of all the species of furries in the area, they're probably the worst mothers. This is part of the reason for the lionesses with cubs living apart -- though if you ask a female Lionen, she'll tell you something such as the males shouldn't have to bothered with lots of noisy, swarming, annoying cubs. On the other hand, during times of starvation, the males, who always get the best choice of meat available, will sometimes turn and give that meat to the cubs, even over the lionesses' protests. (Normally, the cubs eat last. Like I said, not Olympic-champion mothers.)

The other situation in which males might kill cubs is the genocidal takeover, of course -- a band of enemy males kills the male citizens, appropriates the females, and then kill all the cubs. This almost never happens any more, but it was more common in past centuries, shortly after the collapse of a previous civilization, when whole desperate tribes were wandering looking for homelands. (The setting is roughly modeled on the Greek Dark Ages, between the collapse of the Mycenaean Empire and the rise of the city-states.)

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]mushroomhunterd
2004-10-20 01:34 am UTC (link)
These rants are great. Mind if I friend you? You express so equolently why I have become so jaded with the fantasy genre.

I have an idea for a story with a lizard-person as a major secondary character. It's fanfiction, so I am rather constrained, but the sheer logistics of integrating human/lizard characteristics are daunting. The biggest one being whether they are cold or warm blooded. At least they aren't going to change shape.

-[)

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]mushroomhunterd
2004-10-20 02:59 am UTC (link)
Gah! I didn't notice you wanted to be told how I found your journal. I think someone quoted a comment on one of the rants here in
[Error: Irreparable invalid markup ('<lj-user="fanficrants">') in entry. Owner must fix manually. Raw contents below.]

Gah! I didn't notice you wanted to be told how I found your journal. I think someone quoted a comment on one of the rants here in <lj-user="fanficrants">.

-[)

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]limyaael
2004-10-20 04:24 am UTC (link)
Sure, you can friend me; I don't mind.

I've never tried a human/lizard combination (closest I came was writing about a pair of snake shapeshifters). Hope it goes well!

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]mushroomhunterd
2004-10-20 04:10 pm UTC (link)
Since the fandom is an RPG, and the Argonians (lizard-folk) are playable races, the differences have been minimized. In-game they are almost non-existant, although some thought has been put into the social status of the beast races.

There is a book in-game detailing, in rather disturbing language, hypotheses about where the different races came from. Argonians may not be partly human at all, but an evolved mer race. The book then laments the fact that as a healer, the author cannot force matings to test out some of the thories.

-[)

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]gothwalk
2004-10-20 02:41 am UTC (link)
I appreciate an e-mail or comment asking about friending me, and especially telling me how you found my journal.

I'm not asking to be friended, I just want to keep an eye out for the next of these rants. :)

I found your journal through a link on [info]m_nivalis' journal.

And if it's all right, I'll pass a link to the rants on to a D&D gamemaster's group I participate in?

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]limyaael
2004-10-20 04:25 am UTC (link)
Well, thank you for telling me! *friends*

And sure, I'd be flattered if you think they could help with gaming or gamemastering.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

About number one
[info]kadaria
2004-10-20 06:09 am UTC (link)
When it comes to creatures (anything that is not a real human) one thing I keep in mind about strict social structures actually comes from the comic Life of Reily where real vampires constantly infiltrate a LARP group in order to feed. One complains to his friends that the humans playing always get angry with him because he takes people without "ritual" or other steps involved. To this, he rolls his eyes and his friends laugh. How absurd to hold rituals when they were merely hunting for food? Stupid humans.
Because of this, I really like to stick with both (like you said) so I can have a few human elements with animal elements. It seems that having strict human rules all the time just complicates things or like in the comic, makes them seem absurd or long winded.

Also, for people who want to write about shaepshifters or other animals, I highly reccommend watching them first. The Discovery Channel or Animal planet is actually a better choice as opposed to the local zoo (unless your local zoo is the bronx zoo, san diego zoo, national zoo and gardens or the philadelphia zoo) because smaller zoos with bad enclosures bring out abnormal behaviors such as pacing/stereotyped movements.
Good books include any text book written by Bradbury, Vehrencamp and Alcott. Desmond Morris also has great books on equine behavior and horse watching.
Some species though can have creative liesence taken with them because we honestly don't know a lot about them. Whales is an excellent example here because they are almost impossible to study.
From my creative class last year, I know that writing from an animal's POV is really hard because there is a lot to consider and it seems that the same applies to shapeshifters. The story just won't seem feasible without the proper animal elements. For example, I was writing about Pit Bulls and another student pointed out to me during our group discussion that I had mentioned the main dog being able to see red and blue lights when dogs have a partial colorblindness (especially to red and blue). That one mistake had her sidetracked from the story at a crucial moment.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: About number one
[info]limyaael
2004-10-20 12:47 pm UTC (link)
I think the temptation to use human rules all the time is to make it less complicated for the author to write. At a certain point, I suppose you do have to suspend some development of the society, or the book would be all exposition. But going sheerly for ease of writing- not wanting to invent a unique family structure even if the animal species in question doesn't have a human one and the shapeshifters spend all their time as animals, for example- bugs me.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]minervasolo
2004-10-20 08:03 am UTC (link)
oh, obligatory friending comment (after posting several other comments into which I could have incorporated this, but for some reason didn't), since this seems to be the post to do it!

Found you while Googling for 'A Song for Arbonne' fanfiction. Apparantly there isn't any, which makes me weird and unique. I've spent the last four days or so reading every single fantasy essay, which does indeed make me marginally insane. My excuse is I'm attempting to work on my first fantasy novel (Greenhelm: Faltering) and posting it online so other people can help me iron out some of the kinks, such as the ridiculously exposition heavy beginning. There's one character who just generates the stuff, while all the rest are quite happy leaping straight in at the deep end and having plot and characterisation and stuff.

Anyway, yes, ta-da. A forewarning of stalking past and stalking yet to come, I feel.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]limyaael
2004-10-20 12:49 pm UTC (link)
Hello. Sure, you can friend me. *friends back*

I've never seen 'A Song for Arbornne' fanfiction, sadly. I've seen one piece of Lions of Al-Rassan slash, and a few fanfics involving Fionavar Tapestry crossovers. Nothing else of Kay's.

Hey, reading all the fantasy rants in four days doesn't make you marginally insane. Reading them all in one day, maybe.

Good luck on the novel!

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]minervasolo
2004-10-21 01:00 am UTC (link)
thanks!

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]wireandroses
2004-10-20 10:42 am UTC (link)
ooh, i'm excited for the disabled characters rant... one of the characters in my story recently informed me that he loses the use of his legs in a battle, and i want to see what you have to say about it.

...i just lost a potato chip. o.O i think it fell out of my hand into an alternate dimension. damn it, they're nantucket style, too...

WRITING PAPER NOW.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]limyaael
2004-10-20 12:57 pm UTC (link)
*grin* Good luck with the paper.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]lnhammer
2004-10-20 11:50 am UTC (link)
A really good source book to add to the pile for animal societies is Biological Exuberance by Bruce Bagemihl, a massive compendium of field research on bird and mammal non-heterosexual behavior. Pair-bonded females, for companionship and raising young, is surprisingly common. As are just about every other behavior beyond the expected male-mounts-female mating. About half the book is a run-down of species and what's been observed.

---L.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]limyaael
2004-10-20 12:58 pm UTC (link)
People keep mentioning that book. I'm starting to think it would be a good one for my research (because I do want to write a book with shapeshifters who have their own blended culture, and getting rid of some more human ideas about sexual orientation would help).

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]maureenlycaon
2004-10-21 03:38 am UTC (link)
I strongly second that recc! It'd be worth every penny and every bit of shelf space it takes up.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


(Anonymous)
2004-10-20 12:21 pm UTC (link)
Once again (since nobody seems to have noticed last time : / ), I'd like to point out that it's *possible* to have shapeshifters that aren't just were(animal)s. Although they don't seem to be done as much in fantasy, you could have people who can change into light, sound, air, water, spirit form, or some type of machine-- to name just a few non-animal options. Also, there's the possibility of being a literally formless blob of whatever, able to shape your substance into any form desired... won't let you turn into animals, but will let you do all sorts of handy things. There's other sorts of "shapeshifter societies" possible, such as a society of godlike beings able to assume any physical form at will... in such a society, I don't think physical appearance would *matter*, except possibly as an art form or something.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]limyaael
2004-10-20 01:00 pm UTC (link)
Yes, I mentioned such things in this rant. I just didn't feel like talking about them in this one. Doesn't mean they don't exist, doesn't mean I have to talk about them.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]tainted4life
2004-10-20 06:05 pm UTC (link)
I'm doing a Sci Fi novel (and have been developing it for about three years) featuring catboys/girls... taken seriously. LOADS of xenobiology, along with society building...

And I'm just not sure how it measures up. The Keedrow are evolved lions, but they have a lot of human influences, and their societies are all different, and plus they've genetically altered themselves, and they're just really screwed up.

They have a monarchy, though. Every third Monarch is elected, and then for the subesequent two Monarchs it's hereditary. And they've been around for so long that they have NOTHING like their original social structure (which was sort-of pride like. Four females and four males tended to travel together, raising their young and then kicking them out when they were grown).

Ugh. It's number six that kills me, I think.

(Reply to this)


[info]world_wanderer
2004-10-20 07:35 pm UTC (link)
Do you mind if I add you to my watch list, to know of future stuffs? I know I'll be reading your previous ones. You point out some good stuff.

I might ask what inspired these last two rants. I've read hardly any books with shapeshifter communities in them. Most either have them living among humans or some such, or isolated, not in communities, and so they have little need for defining a society.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]limyaael
2004-10-20 07:51 pm UTC (link)
No, that's fine. Glad if it's good.

I think there should be more books with shapeshifter societies in them, since there are so many devoted to, "Oh, I am a shapeshifter and my life is so hard!" Why not join together and create their own community, then? If they were a separate species in one world, it would make sense, and even if they're portraying as disease-infected humans, it makes sense. The humans might drive them out anyway. No, it's an idea that hasn't seen a lot of practice, but I'd like to see it, and ultimately, that's what drives many of the rants.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]world_wanderer
2004-10-20 10:50 pm UTC (link)
Mostly for my stuff, the changing of one's shape is either a permanent biological process, or a skill of magic, or a talent gifted on the occasional individual, few and far between. He'd say, be born a human/elf/whatever, raised a whatever, etc. Probably, no one would know that he's a shapeshifter, unless he did it frequently. Angst would mostly be from people cast out becuase they are seen as freaks for thier ability. Generally to be accepted somewhere else, and live relatively happily ever after.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]world_wanderer
2004-10-20 11:06 pm UTC (link)
Didn't think to mention a few communities you might be interested in:
[info]__fantasynovel
[info]fantasywriters
[info]plot_hooks
[info]worldmaking

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]eclective
2004-10-21 03:24 am UTC (link)
Just asking as to whether I can friend you, as I'm a budding writer and your rants are awesome..... Found you through [info]raincrystal.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]limyaael
2004-10-21 04:24 am UTC (link)
Sure, that's fine. *friends back*

I'm especially glad if they're of help to a budding writer, since they were inspired in the beginning by a lot of amateur fantasy writing on the Internet, and the problems I kept seeing repeated there.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]eclective
2004-10-21 06:17 am UTC (link)
::nods:: I don't often write strict, 100% fantasy, but I often write in universes that make some use of fantasy, and I want to avoid common traps. Your essays are wonderfully put and to the point, yet elaborate enough to provide clear examples of what and what not to do.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]venusrain
2007-09-19 02:12 am UTC (link)
Oooh... My peafowl anthros shall be put to the test. May not be shapeshifters, but it's close enough.

1) Think about government.
Unfortunately, I haven't gotten that far, as I haven't been able to find out enough about peafowl behavior and social structure. It sucks.

2) Show the relationship they have to both normal humans and normal animals.
Normal peafowl no longer exist outside of captivity. They're seen as pets or entertainment, kinda like how humans view apes as pets or entertainment. Except that peafowl are there for the shinies. Females have been known to tell males "Maybe if your train was as pretty as his, you'd finally get laid," while looking at peacocks. Normal peafowl tend to just regard them a really weird birds.

Humans are extinct. Problem solved.

3) Consider structures.
Treehouses, mostly. They're primarily human in appearance, because I have difficulty drawing true anthros. But they have shelves more then tables, because a male's train could get in the way, and they have ladders,used mostly for when a individual's wing is injured, because the anthro-peafowl have hands as well as wings.

4) How does the food move around? They're mostly vegetarians, so most of them have private gardens of food, as well as areas for raising sources of protien like snakes.

5) Consider the raising of children.
Once again, the research problem rears it's ugly head. From what I've found out, I've just kept it as the harem and the lead male helping to raise young together, with the male mostly keeping outsiders away, and generally being agressive, although after a certian point, the unit begins to unglue; young males are given the boot once they're big enough to fend for themselves.

6) Consider how much social cohesion they have. I'd say a decent amount. The lack of information avaliable severly hampers me at this.

(Reply to this)


Create an Account
Forgot your login or password?
Login w/ OpenID
English • Español • Deutsch • Русский…