Limyaael ([info]limyaael) wrote,
@ 2004-10-23 11:21:00
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Current mood: amused
Entry tags:fantasy rants: autumn 2004, rants on style

On good descriptive prose
A while ago, [info]luna_manar challenged me to write a rant on what I thought was good descriptive prose. Well, here you go.



1) Adjectives are powerful, and don’t go out of style. Use them sparingly. I can’t get into a sentence like this:

The slender young woman tossed her long, silky dark hair behind her delicately rounded head and raised her toned bronze arms towards the distant marble ceiling, her skin glowing like mother-of-pearl as she waved her fingers in time to the tune of distant winds, her breath exhaling in pulsing rhythmic song patterns, her eyes dark with stygian promise.

The fuck? That’s fifty-eight words right there, sixteen of which are adjectives, one of which is an adverb, and three of which are devoted to a simile. This is far too many.

It also doesn’t make much sense. Her arms are bronze, but her skin glows like mother-of-pearl? Well, which is it? She could be glowing with magic, but the author hasn’t said anything about that. The word “distant” is repeated twice. “Pulsing rhythmic song patterns” is one of the worst phrases I’ve ever heard; if it means what I think it does, it could be rephrased as “exhaling as if she were singing,” but I’m not sure it means what I think it does. “Stygian,” which means “gloomy or dark” and comes from the name of the river Styx, is just showing off. I have no idea why it matters that this woman has a “delicately rounded” head, or how the watching observer, assuming the passage is from that viewpoint, knows her hair is silky. (Viewpoint is often a problem in dense descriptive passages. See point 2). Also, is all this action really happening simultaneously?

I wrote that passage, so let me chop it down:

The young woman tossed her long dark hair back and raised her toned arms towards the distant marble ceiling. Her fingers waved in time to the winds that played their music in her head. When she finally began to sing, the white glow of the magic through her skin nearly blinded her.

There. It doesn’t get rid of every problem; nor does it convey everything that was in the original passage. But it gets rid of the stupid contradictory skin tone, the viewpoint problem—it must be from her viewpoint, since she’s the one thinking about the winds in her head and being blinded by the glow of the magic—the time sequencing problem, the repetition, and the purple prose. And it’s only fifty-two words long to the original sentence’s fifty-eight. Much better.

Always remember that the premise of description is to make your reader see--not dazzle her with how well you know language or confuse her so much that she only notices muddled words on a page.

2) Keep the descriptive passages in the same viewpoint as the rest of the scene. Here’s another traffic accident. Note the parts I’ve marked:

She smiled up at him with her delicately curved lips, and thought how very handsome he was, with his cornsilk brown hair cascading to his shoulders, his slender toned body, his deep blue eyes full of haunting sorrow unknown to her, and his skin the color of a burnt apple. He had had a tragic past, full of daring escapes, fit to be sung with a coloratura on the theme of sacrifice, but she didn’t know it. He gazed back at her and the thought that filled his haunted head was, ‘How eldritch she looks.’ She reached out a hand and stroked his hair, thinking how much she would like to take him home.

What a mess. The author starts out in the woman’s viewpoint, but at once we have problems. “Delicately curved lips” is an awfully vain phrase for a third-person narrator to think, and she can’t see them anyway; this is a slew into omniscient. She specifically doesn’t know about his past, but there’s a sentence in the middle implying that it involves escape and the utterly hilarious phrase ‘fit to be sung with a coloratura on the theme of sacrifice.’ How is it there if she doesn’t know about it? Another slew into omniscient, or floating ‘Pick-a-fucking-POV-already’-ville. Then the man thinks something, but we snap back into the woman’s viewpoint for the last sentence. By now I am seasick and crying softly.

This happens pretty often in descriptive passages. Once again, the author becomes determined to dazzle the audience; she thinks up a phrase and throws it in there, regardless of whether it’s the kind of thing the character would really say or think, or even has the ability to say or think. (A subtler occurrence is when a character who normally is very laconic suddenly starts rhapsodizing on about the heroine’s beauty).

Remember this lesson when writing a fantasy novel, and remember it well: You have the whole book to dazzle your audience and tell them the story. You don’t need to pack everything into one passage.

That includes knowledge of your fantasy world, by the way.

3) Don’t dump descriptive passages at the very beginning. Dear god, don’t do it. This is a common problem across genres, not just fantasy. The author has a character running down some stairs to escape the bad guys. Does she plunge us into the chase, or even take us back a few paragraphs earlier and give us a glimpse of the character’s terror, so that we’ll root for him to get away?

No! Of course not! That would ruin Project Explain The Fantasy World! So we start out like this instead:

The Kingdom of Aria had been founded centuries ago by a Queen who came from across the sea. None of her people remembered her name anymore, but referred to her only as the Founder. Her picture looked out from the top of every mantelpiece in the kingdom, and Arians would sometimes gaze at her fondly, the way that one might gaze at a beloved pet. She had green eyes—green as the fields of Aria, it was said; golden hair—golden as the wine that sustained the kingdom, it was said—and pale skin—pale as the foam of the Dragonsdawn Sea that swept the eastern coast of the kingdom with unceasing motion. There was never a moment that passed in the kingdom that was not under her watchful gaze, that was not bound to the rhythm of her memories, that was not a part of the long history she had started…

Imagine paragraph after paragraph after paragraph of this. I’ve seen it all too often in amateur fantasy stories on the Internet. Instead of starting where the story begins—with characters, with conflict, with an immediate important plot occurrence—the author takes us “back to the very beginning.”

Remember that it’s hard for anyone to care about a place without people in it to anchor the caring. You can write the most brilliant fantasy kingdom in the world, and if you don’t make your story interesting, the audience is going to yawn, put down the book, and say, “Next.”

Describe the kingdom’s history later in the story (but not in one infodumpy chapter, please, another of the great clichés of fantasy). You’ll have time, and by then your readers will be considerably more interested in hearing it.

4) Don’t let description actively take the place of the story. You know exactly what I mean if you have read Robert Jordan. It is no exaggeration to say that he spends more time on describing the clothes, gestures, furnishings, and wilderness in his book than he does on advancing the plot. This is one reason why almost nothing happens in his books now; he’s caught up with introducing minor characters and describing them, instead of actually having things happen.

A fantasy novel can be about place as well as characters and plot—Tolkien showed this very well—but it’s not about description, any more than it’s about characterization or exposition. The tools of writing are what makes the story; characterization makes characters. To demand that the audience pause and admire your description of rocks and trees and clothes and china cabinets and ships and shoes and ceiling wax shows that you’re more concerned with displaying those skills that advancing the story. The moment that description becomes the focus, you have lost the story. Description serves the book, not the other way around.

5) In some scenes, verbs and nouns are more powerful descriptors than adjectives and adverbs. I have read many fight scenes where the author will describe the character striking a blow, then admiring his enemy’s armor and the color his blade glows and the shine of his teeth, then parrying his enemy’s blow, then noting that the way the snow fans up around them reminds him of his last fight in the snow, then striking again…

I always think this is madly hysterical. The character is fighting, and yet he has time to notice things like this? Bitch, please. He’s fighting for his life, yet somehow the pretty, pretty patterns in the snow are more important? I tell you, only in the mind of a description-obsessed fantasy author.

Scenes which need a sense of speed also need to be streamlined. The fight for life, the daring escape, the moment between life and death when the character is teetering on the edge of a cliff…nouns and verbs are your friends here, not “like” and all the rich ultraviolet stratum of adjectives.

Instead of saying, “He slid down the banister like a tornado advancing on the coast,” try “He hurtled down the banister.” Instead of “She tried to lift her dear comrade’s dead body, and found it weighed her arms down like a boulder” try “She hefted her friend’s corpse, and sobbed at its weight.” Instead of, “She looked down into the distant mad chasm, swirling with water like monsters, sending up a choking smell of thick slimy seaweed,” try, “She nearly tipped into the abyss, which swarmed with water, and sent up a reek of seaweed.” Sometimes you’ll need the adjectives, but not nearly as often as people think. And the more weighty your language, the harder it is to read through, and the more your chance is of slowing the reader down, sometimes making the scene seem not as serious. After all, if the heroine has the time to admire the stained-glass patterns on the window in front of her, is she really that worried about her life?



There.

Rant on vampires is next, I think.




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[info]sir_hellsing
2004-10-23 08:39 am UTC (link)
Rant on vampires is next, I think.

Oh please! I'm a huge (real lore) vampire geek. I'm writing short tales with vampire species of Africa, Asia, Europe and South America as focus (no emmo kids at all).

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[info]ankewehner
2004-10-23 09:01 am UTC (link)
I second the "oh please", but just because my vampire character is bugging me to write him, and it would be neat to read one of your rants to maybe straighten out some stuff.

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[info]jinnigan
2004-10-23 08:46 am UTC (link)
I think the reason nothing Robert Jordan writes goes anywhere is because he's fallen too in love with his world, and he doesn't want to end it, and also it has not occured to him that he can write other books about the same world.

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[info]limyaael
2004-10-24 07:37 am UTC (link)
Well, from what I've heard, he's said that the Wheel of Time series is the end; he won't write any other things set in the same world. But then, he's written a prequel since he said that, and apparently has plans for two more, so who really knows now.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]otakukeith, 2004-10-24 08:50 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2004-10-24 09:02 am UTC

[info]tavalya_ra
2004-10-23 09:04 am UTC (link)
When I was little and silly, I used to think that the mark of a good writer was using lots of unique and clever words, especially adjectives and funky verbs.

I've gotten over that. I now think the mark of the good writer is the ability to write a story that grabs you, shakes you, punches you in the gut, and makes you cry for more.

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[info]limyaael
2004-10-24 07:37 am UTC (link)
I think that's a very good standard to have. I've read a lot of amateur stories now that are beautifully written, but don't actually say anything.

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[info]auturgist
2004-10-23 09:17 am UTC (link)
Rant on vampires is next, I think.

Fuck 'em, I say. Fuck 'em right in their undead assholes. = P

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[info]otakukeith
2004-10-23 09:53 am UTC (link)
You know exactly what I mean if you have read Robert Jordan. It is no exaggeration to say that he spends more time on describing the clothes, gestures, furnishings, and wilderness in his book than he does on advancing the plot. This is one reason why almost nothing happens in his books now; he’s caught up with introducing minor characters and describing them, instead of actually having things happen.

I think it would be more exact to say that he spends more time introducing and describing those minor characters and their stupid feuds with each other than having things happen. :D

Exhibit A: Egwene's Aes Sedai.
Exhibit B: Those (%^**$ Kin and Sea Folk with Elayne.
Exhibit C: Poor Mat's hangers-on. I say he should ditch the lot of them (except for Thom and Juilin, maybe) and ride off into the sunset with Tuon. :D
Exhibit D: That Seanchan detective guy and his Generic Native American Sidekick.
Exhibit E: The Aes Sedai who got captured and turned into kinky love slaves Warders by the Asha'man.
Exhibit F: The Shaido.
Exhibit G: The morons nobles camped outside Caemlyn.

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[info]goldjadeocean
2004-10-23 11:53 am UTC (link)
Jordan's feuding amuses me most because it's all the kind of melodramam you'd expect from a pack of prepubescent girls in a middle school. Though I'm a little weirded out by his kink of having women fold their arms under their breasts- what, are they trying to subtly lift their cleavage?

Robert Jordan is just Wrong on a number of levels. Descriptions and characterisation are just two of them.

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(no subject) - [info]otakukeith, 2004-10-23 12:00 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]jinnigan, 2004-10-23 06:46 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2004-10-24 07:38 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]rawles, 2004-10-24 02:55 pm UTC

[info]luna_manar
2004-10-23 09:58 am UTC (link)
Whew, that was a good one. Challenge well-met. I think you've cleared up quite a few of my earlier questions regarding exposition.

Eagerly awaiting the Vampires rant.

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[info]limyaael
2004-10-24 07:39 am UTC (link)
You're welcome.

Yes, vampires are next. Let's hope they work.

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[info]dipping_sauce
2004-10-23 10:01 am UTC (link)
I always think this is madly hysterical. The character is fighting, and yet he has time to notice things like this? Bitch, please. He's fighting for his life, yet somehow the pretty, pretty patterns in the snow are more important? I tell you, only in the mind of a description-obsessed fantasy author.

Frankly, I blame bad X-Men comics.

In case you've never read a bad X-Men comic (God, you're lucky) in every fight scene there's always a sequence where a character does something that takes maybe two seconds, tops, and yet somehow during those two seconds they manage to have a long conversation with their opponent. Or they announce their name, their powers, and give a detailed summary of their backstory.

So after years of reading stuff like that, it's no wonder some people think that all action sequences take place in slo-mo.

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[info]luna_manar
2004-10-23 10:08 am UTC (link)
Personally I think X-men was taking a cue from mainstream kids' anime...Sailor Moon, Dragonball Z, Card Captor Whateverhernameis, Yu-Gi-Oh, Zoids...they ALL do that, to such a degree I simply cannot watch them. Not only do they have to announce who they are, where they came from, what their sob story is, and what their powers are, they also have to show every "critical" punch or kick from three different freaking angles, just in case you didn't see it the first time--and also to show off the heroine's underpants from three different sexy angles, no doubt. Can't STAND it.

...::ducks projectiles from rabid anime fan::

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(no subject) - [info]draegonhawke, 2004-10-23 11:03 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]luna_manar, 2004-10-23 11:07 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]tainted4life, 2004-10-23 11:35 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]dipping_sauce, 2004-10-23 11:15 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]doinkies, 2004-10-23 04:52 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]napthia9, 2004-10-24 02:34 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]onyxflame, 2006-03-02 06:42 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2004-10-24 07:47 am UTC

[info]dinpik
2004-10-23 10:20 am UTC (link)
Yay! Vampires!

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[info]lainyle
2004-10-23 12:57 pm UTC (link)
I appreciated this rant quite a bit. One of my weaknesses is the temptation to begin every chapter--including the first--with a grand description scene. With this book I'm going to try to plunge into the action first thing and then try to get away with descriptive chapter beginnings throughout the rest of the story. ;> Or, who knows, I may actually be a good girl and keep such openings down to a handful. While the descriptive beginnings don't include back story like in your number 3), I admit it's still a bad way to start a book. The concept of a "hook" is escaping the writing world.

Description has always been my downfall in some shape, way, or form. At first I couldn't write it to save my life, then it took a brick over the head to cut it down to fit in the story, and now (I hope) it's starting to balance. I still have issues trying to describe the physical characteristics of my characters beyond hair, eyes, age, and general height (tall/average/short). My characters might as well be invisible walking personalities. For some reason I describe the nonhumans well, but the poor humans are neglected in that area. A human is a human is a human. ;)

As for 2)? I say if you're going to switch between the minds of characters, at least treat it like dialogue and start a new paragraph. Or, better yet, don't switch between "minds" for pages if at all. It's my personal preference to stick most to completely in the mind of one main character per chapter; otherwise it's just downright confusing for the reader.

I'm surprised you didn't have a separate number to rant on adverbs. Many writers are convinced they are the DOOM of a story.

I bow to you for 5). That's one of my biggest pet peeves in any genre of book; right in the middle of a fight the character goes on a page-long survey of the opponent's appearance, personality, etc, sometimes while he/she is being attacked? I'm sorry, but no. Just... no. Unless your character happens to be some sort of genius who's mind works a hundred times the speed of your average human's, by the time they're done admiring the monster's pretty eyes they should be lying on the ground twitching.

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[info]lainyle
2004-10-23 01:00 pm UTC (link)
Oh, and I'm also looking forward to that vampire rant! The only vampire story I've ever read is Valedor by Donna Fritz, and it was excellent even though I'm not a vampire fan. I'd love to be able see how good of a job she really did. :) She's one of the few if the only author I've seen that manages to switch from a full-blown fantasy setting to modern day without losing the reader. Both parts of the book are equally well-written, to boot.

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(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2004-10-24 07:50 am UTC

[info]alegwyni
2004-10-23 01:24 pm UTC (link)
I've ghosted your rants for a little while now and I've finally gotten guts enough to respond to one.

Anyway, THANK YOU! You said in two pages what it took seven for me to tell the girl I beta for.

Also, just out of curiosity, what are your thoughts on the best way to introduce a character? You've got tidbits tucked away in other rants, but would you mind putting them all in one place?

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[info]limyaael
2004-10-24 07:51 am UTC (link)
Hello. And you're welcome. ;)

Hmmm, that's an interesting idea. I'll probably do a rant on that in a few days. For now, I would say that going into my memories, looking up "Limyaael's Fantasy Rants," and looking at the ones on conversation scenes and protagonist motivations would be the biggest help.

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[info]erikomyoujin
2004-10-23 01:52 pm UTC (link)
Hmm... the placing of certain descriptions has always gotten me muddled, as well. In an escape scene I'm currently stuck on, I've been terribly tempted to stop the action to describe the beasts they escape on/with. The character's never seen such a beast before, and she's afraid to ride one, even to escape death. This leads me into lengthy description of the beast, which, reading through it, takes away from the action. I still want her to be afraid of the beast and its features, and I want to have the reader SEE why she's afraid, but I don't want to get bored in the mud of description, either. Ugh. *end confusing*

This has been the most helpful rant yet, for me. Description kills me.

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[info]limyaael
2004-10-24 07:52 am UTC (link)
Well, I can't offer complete advice without knowing more about that particular character's situation, but I would say choose a few standout features to describe why she's so afraid of them- big teeth? long horns? ugly-as-sin faces?- and then cast in a few more during their ride, and then have her take a good long look at them when the characters are safe and get even more freaked-out. That can build suspense as well as make sure that you don't infodump in one place all at once.

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[info]kleenexwoman
2004-10-23 02:41 pm UTC (link)
I love you.
I'm just starting a new novel for NaNoWriMo (outlining right now), so this could not have come at a better time. I'm going to print this up and...staple it to my forehead or something.

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[info]limyaael
2004-10-24 08:01 am UTC (link)
*grin* Glad I could help.

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[info]rawles
2004-10-23 02:43 pm UTC (link)
2) Keep the descriptive passages in the same viewpoint as the rest of the scene.

On the flip side, how do you feel about vastly divergent descriptions from different POVs?

Because, I normally write in limited third person and try to be very, very aware of staying in that POV. Which means that whenever someone or something is described it's most definitely filtered through that character's eyes, so later when it's from someone else's POV, the person or thing won't be described in the same terms.

The way it tends to work out it that their descriptions of people reflect the POV character's personality, experience, and their feelings about the person being described. So, I end up with a situation where upon meeting Protagonist A, Protagonist C thinks that she's plain. However, when we hit Protagonist B's POV he thinks that Protagonist A, who he's known for a very long time, is beautiful. Meanwhile, Protagonist A is a laconic person so passages from her POV don't spend much time describing anyone, except Protagonist B, because she's attracted to him, and later on Protagonist C because she feels threatened by her.

Basically, you could get a lot of clues as to the dynamics of their interpersonal relationships by the way the narrative is structured, even when particular scenes don't have anything to do with it (or at least, that's my intention). However, I wonder if this will make readers feel as though I'm inconsistent with regard to how people/things look.

I worry that someone will read it and think that I can't decide whether Protagonist A is pretty or not or whether Sitting Room X is beautifully decorated or terribly garish.

I mean, there are some things that are pretty much objective reality so they reoccur in descriptions (i.e. Protagonist A has a long face and broad shoulders; Sitting Room X is strewn with brightly colored throw pillows) but still I worry.

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[info]limyaael
2004-10-24 08:03 am UTC (link)
I think vastly divergent descriptions from different POV's are great (especially if the character is then given a POV of her own, and the reader can judge how close her own perceptions of herself fall to the perceptions of others). The main things to avoid are:

a) Outright contradiction; you could get away with having one character describe the woman he loves as beautiful and the second describing her as plain, but it'd be harder to explain one saying she has green eyes and another that she has violet eyes.
b) Forgetting who knows what. If you let information that's only available to Character A color Character B's perception, too, there' a problem.
c) Too much foreshadowing. It sometimes seems that some viewpoints in fantasy books only exist to instill a "dun-dun-DUN!" sense of doom.

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(no subject) - [info]rawles, 2004-10-24 02:52 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ciaan, 2004-10-24 10:24 pm UTC

[info]lnhammer
2004-10-23 06:31 pm UTC (link)
There's a point (and I've heard this from many writers as well as experienced this) where, after years of being told "More emotion! More description!", it suddenly clicks — and you realize those are not two separate sentences. Showing emotion IS description; Showing description IS emotion (and sensation). The emotional state of the POV colors everything. POV is not a camera: it is subjective character.

Most of those examples seem to, if not stem from, are tied to that. Certainly the bad fight scenes are failing to filter description through the POV; and those POV bobbles as well.

Much of the rest can be distilled to the advice, "A vivid noun contains many adjectives, and a vivid verb, many adverbs — rendering them superfluous."

---L.

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[info]undeadgoat
2004-10-23 07:06 pm UTC (link)
But if you never need description, either your word is incredibly bland, or your reader is constantly running to the dictionary.

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(no subject) - [info]lnhammer, 2004-10-23 09:16 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2004-10-24 08:05 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]lnhammer, 2004-10-24 08:57 am UTC

[info]youraugustine
2004-10-23 06:33 pm UTC (link)
"Is it necessary? does it fit? does it sound good?"

I steal formats from CS Lewis for my writing mnemonics. Mwahah.

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[info]limyaael
2004-10-24 08:05 am UTC (link)
I think those are all good, but they do need to be balanced. A lot of purple prose seems to be the "Does it sound good?" overtaking the others.

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(no subject) - [info]youraugustine, 2004-10-24 11:29 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2004-10-24 07:28 pm UTC

[info]world_wanderer
2004-10-23 07:41 pm UTC (link)
So, how does one go about this in a short story? Yes, in a book you have anywhere from a hundred to seven hundred pages to do it. But a short story is generally under twenty or so.

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[info]limyaael
2004-10-24 08:14 am UTC (link)
I think in a short story, you should only use what is absolutely essential to the story. If the backstory is so complicated than it can only be explained in twenty pages, then it can't be a short story. Cut it down and focus on the characterization, the dialogue, the action, and the plot. Hint at the deeper backstory through what I call "slotting," which is fitting in details at various points, such as during larger fight scenes or meeting scenes ("Sarah narrowed her eyes. He reminded her far too much of the fat priest she had once met in Nazos for comfort.")

I think fantasy short stories have to do more than just introduce the character to the world, and they have to stand on their own more than prologues or first chapters of novels. They can't substitute for them, really.

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[info]graygirl
2004-10-23 08:06 pm UTC (link)
I swear, you must read what my writing group posts for crit... Awaiting the vampires eagerly... :)

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[info]scriva
2004-10-23 11:25 pm UTC (link)
2. The inconsistence of viewpoints is a pet peeve of mine in amateur and published fiction, and even writer who use third person limited make this error. It always interrupts the rhythm of the book for me, because I start asking myself how it can be that character X can suddenly realise something he couldn't no.

I tend to write very personalise descriptions, always trying to keep to the set of believes of the respective character. They don't describe the very familiar sttings or persons, and very often they don't give a description of themseleves, and the reader has to wait for hints they drop.

3. I think it depends of what you describe at the beginning. Normally, I tend to jump in medias res, in my fantasy novel I started with the description of the place where the first chapter is set. However, I tried to include the description in the action of the characters for whom this place is fresh and new and special, because she and her husband have just moved in. The place also is a key element of the story, so I feel the description is motivated. Anyway, I did not describe the whole society of the people.

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[info]limyaael
2004-10-24 08:17 am UTC (link)
I think many writers in third-person limited make the error because they don't realize where third-person limited stops and omniscient begins. They want to include the neat detail, and they know they can bounce from head to head or float about to display it, and they forget that according to the story they've told so far, they're not supposed to do that. They'll just have to find a harder way to do it, instead of taking the easy route.

I've read so many descriptive beginnings that I don't really find descriptions of persons more exciting than places- and they tend to have the same fault, too, of hovering outside and describing what no one character could possibly know or see. I think the best way to do it is to introduce the character doing something, and then add in sentences like, "Dust stained her brown hair almost white." That gives details without dumping them on the reader like an avalanche.

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Invention
[info]sanguimane
2004-10-24 02:13 am UTC (link)
The only reason for a fantasy novel to BE a fantasy novel is if the author is going to invent the world. Otherwise it might as well be historical romance.

I know that in these dark days a fantasy novel is defined as a 'mediaeval romance with dragons in it' but frankly, many that do not have the research facilities patience or particular talent to write a historical piece simply make it all up based on 'films they saw'. Fantasy as soft option where it should in fact be one of the most challenging areas of writing.

This said, if the author is truly inventing everything from the ground up then there has to be extra description, simply because 'a castle' will not do. If an author is capable of (or obliged to practise)'imagination overdrive' then they have a compulsion to relate what they see in their heads. To conjure mood from disparate elements, weather, odour, sensation of being present are even more important to maintain the realism of say, a city that floats upside down than it is say, the hero went to 'Birmingham'.

I really hate it when authors start to fall back on 'A gnome came out of the forest, as if they were writing aout 'a horse'. If a cliche has grown to such swollen proportions that it requires no description it should not be used yet again.

It is a good test of ones own originality, 'How much information do I have to give that my new character be conjured?' None? Then they are NOT a 'new' character. A little? Then they they must be far from original. ETC ETC
We eventually arrive at 'I can't introduce this bizzarity by referring it to anything else, ergo I must paint a picture thereof'.
Then we are in the realm of pure fantasy. And a fresh realm at that!

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Invention
[info]limyaael
2004-10-24 08:21 am UTC (link)
Wait. Are you saying that lengthy descriptions= originality? Um, no. I don't think so. A lengthy description can still be full of clichéd phrases like, "emerald eyes he could drown in," "a long cascade of silky hair that swirled as she moved," "sparkling eyes that knew the whole world's sorrow," "slender hands covered with many rings," "a diaphanous blue gown that swirled around her," and so on. And I think that having a character stop to describe an enemy in detail when that enemy is charging him is even more bizarre.

Frankly, I don't think it's physical description that makes an original character. I think it's personality. I have characters who have "shaggy hair" and "gray eyes" and that's it as extension of physical description, but they have deep enough personalities that I can be sure the readers will grasp them.

If you're talking about writing in a world so distant from Earth that it doesn't have, say, seasons or gravity or most colors, then yes, that does require some interesting descriptive tricks. But there, the author can't cheat and describe the character from the outside just because she wants to. She has to do it from the inside, and that still requires obeying the rules of viewpoint, thinking about whether the character really has time to notice details, and so on.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Invention - [info]sanguimane, 2004-10-25 01:36 am UTC
Re: Invention - [info]winterfox, 2004-10-25 09:39 pm UTC
Re: Invention - [info]sanguimane, 2004-10-27 03:04 am UTC

[info]napthia9
2004-10-24 02:44 am UTC (link)
Umm. This is probably not the appropriate rant, and I'm sure you've heard this question before, but several times you warned against infodumping, and I was wondering exactly how much infodumping you view is appropriate, or how one should spread it out.

Also: Yay, Vampire rant!

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]limyaael
2004-10-24 08:24 am UTC (link)
I tend to think of infodumping as a negative term, so I prefer to avoid it. Here is the rant where I talk about that.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]napthia9, 2004-10-24 01:44 pm UTC

[info]lemurkat
2004-10-24 03:31 pm UTC (link)
You know, I've read some books that suffer from over-use of the adjectives. And whilst I do not support infodumps of history etc about your world, I think it is something that a writer should know. They just don't have to tell the reader about it during the narrative, but should instead save it for the appendices or the website or the "Guide to *fantasy kingdom*". But it really does help the writing if you have at least a vague idea of how the politics work and who is the ruler and so forth.

I have a question for you, Limyaael, sometime in the not-too-distant future I intend to put up a LJ entry re: the plot of my Nano novel (for this year). If I ask you nicely, can you glance through it and let me know if it sounds too cliched or something? I do realise I am highly likely to suffer from the "cute animal side-kick" syndrome but would hope that I do not do it in too sickening a fashion. The "cute animal side-kicks" for example, are not going to be cute and cuddly kittens or puppies. Although one IS a wolf. Anyhow, I know you're watching my LJ.

Kat

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]limyaael
2004-10-24 07:27 pm UTC (link)
Sure, I'd be happy too. LJ is sometimes a bitch about letting me see recent entries though (I've followed links to entries that never showed up on my friends page), so if you post it and I don't comment in a day or so, let me know.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]ciaan
2004-10-24 10:18 pm UTC (link)
I don't use enough description, I think. When I'm just writing whatever I think of first, I do dialogue and I do emotions. Actions and scenery and all those other physical descriptions take WORK for me to create and add in. Sometimes, very rarely, I put in too much description, because it is an effort, and I know my natural tendency is too spare, so I try too hard and err on the other side.

But I don't need advice on how to cut out excessive description. I need advice on how to effectively add in more description.

(Reply to this)

The Names
[info]karenrei
2006-02-02 08:01 pm UTC (link)
This rant reminds me a bit of what I recall from reading "The Names" by Don DeLilo. He greatly imbalanced his use of description, flooding it in places and leaving it very sparse in others to emphasize the things that the main character was noticing. Early in the plot, the main character has recently encountered his wife who separated from him a while back and who he is still in love with. While he's never alone with her, the author goes sparse on the descriptions of everyone else and rich on her, with longing or jealous descriptions. It's a very powerful section.

Of course, that's to be expected as the book was a commentary on the power of language ;)

(Reply to this)

Nouns
[info]karenrei
2006-02-02 08:16 pm UTC (link)
Also, good commentary on the power of nouns to describe. They often work better than adjectives. Seriously. Here's an example (pardon my ripping from Pedro The Lion):

----
"Julia", he muttered. The kerosene at the airport. The aftershave. The european cigarettes. The taxi. The alcohol that lingered on his breath. The lipstick. The street lamp. The woolen overcoat. The front desk. The creaking mattress. The empty movements that were once so inspired.

"It isn't over yet."
----

Four adjectives, one adverb, and three verbs in the entire paragraph. Yet, it creates a wealth of imagery, doesn't it? Nouns have a lot more "mental real estate" associated with them than adjectives do; you can create a much more dramatic picture by borrowing pieces of the reader's mind -- the symbols that they map nouns to.

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