Limyaael ([info]limyaael) wrote,
@ 2004-10-24 21:59:00
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Current mood: amused
Entry tags:fantasy rants: autumn 2004, rants on nonhumans

Vampire rant
The rant on vampires. This is focused on vampires in fantasy, not horror fiction, as I read very little horror compared to fantasy.

That means that this rant concentrates on the really, really annoying vampires.



1) Give any mortal character an extraordinary reason for wanting to turn into a vampire/fall in love with one. The only situation under which I find either of these remotely plausible is when the mortal character falls in love with the vampire under some kind of mind control, or possibly before realizing what the vampire really is. I don’t think the following reasons make any kind of sense on any kind of world under any kind of moon:

-“My parents don’t understand me, so I’ll become a vampire!” (I’m sure that will really teach them).
-“Vampires are so sexy!” (Into necrophilia, are they?)
-“I’m psychic/special/chosen/a witch, so I must be a vampire’s mate!” (Why? And see point 2).
-“I know I am a vampire in my soul!” (This could work with someone who, essentially, has a predatory nature. But it’s always the wide-eyed girl who cries at the death of Bambi’s mother who announces this).
-“Vampires are so much more special than ordinary people!” (Oh, look, there goes Abused Teenage Protagonist #6548854 down the road to her destiny…zzzzz).

Remember that, most of the time, vampires are represented as predators on humans. Even the ones who only feed from willing humans are. Mice don’t stand around admiring the shine of the cat’s teeth. Deer don’t swoon for the love of the wolf. You can make a mortal’s attraction to vampires understandable, even fascinating, but it requires more work than just declaring that they’re in love with a vampire/want to be turned. Don’t take the easy route out.

2) Give a vampire a likewise extraordinary reason to turn a mortal into a vampire/fall in love with one. This touches on something I’ve written about before with immortal protagonists, like elves or gods or Dark Lords. He’s lived centuries. He’s seen humans, probably including humans of unique beauty and courage and honor and what not, live and die. He’s probably killed a few of those humans himself. What about SpunkyGirl Generic here is so unusual that he would be interested in doing more than draining her of a few drinks of blood or playing around with her for a while, then dropping her like a hot rock?

This is often where the idea that vampires have a “mate” comes in, especially in bad vampire romance novels. The vampire and the woman moan and sigh at each other in italicized telepathic scenes, then “love each other as they were destined to do.” Once again, lazy characterization, little effort, little pay-off. The author can find the idea of a mate just marvelous, but she can’t convey that to readers with a few dollops of purple prose and some moaning. The same rule holds here as in any good fantasy romance: show your audience why these two people are in love, complement each other, attract as opposites, whatever. In the case of a vampire/mortal romance, you also have to go the extra mile and show why this mortal has what it takes to catch and hold a blood-drinker, and why he would be interested in her. (I’m using these pronouns because in most of the stories I’ve read, the vampire lover is male and the human is female. A lot of vampiresses seem to exist to hiss and act like sluts and then get slaughtered. See point 7).

It might be slightly easier to understand why a vampire would turn a mortal—he wants her company for eternity—but if it’s really just infatuation, there should be consequences. Now he’s stuck with someone he doesn’t really love, or at least she’s as immortal as he is, maybe as fast and strong and clever, and he can’t leave her behind as easily. For a vampire who’s at all intelligent, it should be something to think over carefully before he finds his lover dying of a car accident and “turns” her without thinking.

3) By now, it is no longer original to make your vampire angst over drinking blood. One reason, for all its flaws, why I liked Anne Rice’s The Vampire Lestat was because Lestat did not angst. He liked feeding from people and killing them and being adored, and he broke the “rules” of vampire society, and he expected people to admire him. Yes, that changed in later books, which is too bad. But I could wish there were more vampires in fantasy who had that kind of “Bow to me, mortal,” attitude, instead of the seeming inability to do anything but sit around saying, “Woe!”

I have three reasons for hating this:

a) Whining is difficult to do gracefully. Suffering human adolescent or vampire who doesn’t wanna feed, this remains true.
b) By now, it’s a cliché. Most whiny vampires are carbon copies of one another.
c) It makes it seem as if vampires are still human, when, really, you’d think that living hundreds—even thousands—of years and drinking blood and not seeing the sun and so on would condition them to a different kind of life and perspective on existence.

If your vampire regrets being a predator, or can’t reconcile himself to eating to survive, when most humans manage it just fine, then, again, give him a him-derived reason for being that way. Don’t assume he must be that way because he’s a vampire.

4) Why is eating “psychic energy” less harmful? There seems to be a trend in some fantasy novels to have vampires feed on things other than blood, like psychic energy, or “life force,” or dreams, or whatever. I don’t actually mind that; it adds some variation to the usual blood-drinking myth. But I do mind when it’s portrayed as though this kind of feeding has no negative consequences.

I’m sometimes not sure what authors mean by “psychic energy,” so I’ll take a general definition: the energy that enables a person to think, create, plan, come up with ideas, and perhaps project psychic powers, like telepathy or telekinesis. A psi-vamp feeds on that from Character B’s brain. Then he walks away. Where does that leave Character B?

I would hope in at least as sorry a shape as a character drained of a pint or so of blood. Victims of “normal” vampires who don’t die typically lie around in bed, sleep a lot, and are pale, but eventually recover. Victims of psi-vamps seem to get up the next day and go on with life.

With their energy to think and create missing? I’ve experienced days like that before, where my thoughts seemed to move through cotton wool and nothing made any sense. While I wouldn’t be inclined to attribute it to a psi-vamp, neither would I think that people living in a world with such creatures would be a boundless store of energy for them, with no side-effects for themselves.

The major idea of the vampire is that of the predator. Softening that is too often an attempt to have the cake and eat it too. If you have a vampire that feeds on something other than blood, show the drawbacks, and study what humans who lack that thing, even if only for a short time, are like. Feeding on dreams might seem harmless, but people who don’t dream can eventually go insane. Likewise, do people who lose life force die earlier? Logically, it seems like they should. I can’t imagine they would be too happy about that, especially if the vampire fed on them without their permission.

5) Vampiric limitations are there for a reason. If you get rid of some of them, put new ones in their places. This is especially appropriate if you’re writing vampires with a background that’s not Western European. A vampire in a fantasy world without Christianity might not have any reason to be intimidated by a cross—but perhaps the sound of singing might drive him off. Your vampires could well not care about garlic, could cross running water, could see their reflections in mirrors, perhaps even endure the sun. But for every limitation you take away, you render the vampire more powerful at seemingly no cost. This makes friendly vampires into deus ex machinas and vampire heroes into demigods. There have to be certain things that they’re not able to do.

If you’re not going to use the vampire lore of another culture on Earth, then think about some of the limitations that naturally arise from vampires being, oh, not to put too fine a point on it, dead. Do they naturally attract flies? Perhaps every time the vampire lies down, there are the pesky flies trying to lay their eggs on his eyes. I can imagine that most other animals with a keen sense of smell wouldn’t much like him, either. Dogs could howl not because the vampire is inherently “wrong” but because he doesn’t smell right. Horses might not be willing to bear him. Perhaps a mystical non-human race, like elves or goblins, has a vendetta against his kind and will shoot any vampire on sight.

Be especially careful with the more powerful vampire gifts, like shapeshifting and flight. If an enemy absolutely cannot keep a vampire out because he can fly over the walls, then punch through a locked door, then turn into a mouse and creep through the seemingly impenetrable wall of magic, it’s all over the moment the vampire joins the heroes’ side. (A vampire on the villains’ side is usually dumbed down the way that most fantasy villains are). This is boring. Booooring. It kills suspense, it kills tension, it kills any sense of a true competition between the two sides.

Choose your limitations well and wisely, by all means. I think more people should write vampires that don’t fall into the genre’s stereotypes. But using them as unstoppable killing machines is no better than making them into big-hearted softies who don’t really hurt anybody, as point 4 tends to do.

6) Think up drawbacks as well as advantages to human/vampire reproduction. Vampires can’t have children with humans in every vampire fantasy novel I’ve read, but when they do, the babies seem to have no problems. They’re often stronger and faster and smarter than normal humans, and aside from maybe having to drink blood—or “psychic energy”—to survive, have none of a vampire’s limitations, either. They’re ready to advance to demigod status in their turn.

This is a common problem with half-breed heroes, which I’ve ranted about before: the author gives them only the “pretty” traits from the non-human parent, and none of the ugly ones. Recall, though, that hybrids don’t automatically share every one of their parents’ advantages. Mules are stronger, more stubborn, and probably smarter than horses, but neither are they as fertile (most of them, at least), and most humans in fantasy novels don’t use them in preference to horses as riding mounts. Half-elves don’t live as long as elves, although the authors often make them as beautiful and give them full command of elven magic. And neither should half-vampires escape some sense of what it costs them to have a vampire parent.

One possible idea is protection against disease. I read an absolutely marvelous short story, whose title and author I can’t recall right now, about a vampire who had become hideous from drinking the blood of humans—and contracting every single one of their blood-borne diseases. One could conjecture that normal vampires don’t have that as a problem, or they wouldn’t have survived so long, but what about a half-vampire child? If he’s alive, he wouldn’t have the protection of dead flesh, and he wouldn’t necessarily be as resistant as a purebred vampire. He might have to start being very careful to watch what he ate.

Another possible choice is to make the half-vampire clumsier with his magic than his parent, since he hasn’t lived long enough to acquire the exquisite control a centuries-old vampire could be expected to have. Perhaps he means to just feed on a little psychic energy from his next-door neighbor, but instead drains her dry and kills her. Now what’s he going to do, especially if there’s circumstantial evidence that points to him?

Any drawbacks like these could make the story fascinating—certainly more interesting than the latest story of a hero with unconquerable powers.

7) Try to have female vampires who aren’t sluts. The single worst example I can think of for this is the Anita Blake series, which is set in an alternate America where vampires are acknowledged as citizens with civil rights. The male vampires can be compelling and fascinating characters (despite the author’s tendency in recent books to make every one of them in love with the heroine). Every female vampire in the series to date has been hyperactively sexual and usually much stupider than the males, and more mindlessly cruel for no apparent reason.

Why is this? Why are male vampires daringly sexual and valorized for this, but female vampires aren’t allowed to enjoy and have sex without scorn? (Only exception is for a mortal heroine turned vampire, and they’re often virginal in the first place).

I’ve heard there are a few series that are exceptions to this, including a series of stories about a vampiress named Gilda by an author named Jewelle Gomez. I haven’t read those stories, so I can’t say for certain. If so, it would be a welcome break from all the sluts.

If you do have a female vampire in your stories, consider making her as fleshed-out (sorry, bad pun) a character as the male vampires, not just there to hiss at the heroine or toss her flaming red hair and prance around in a diaphanous nightdress.



Servant characters shall be next.




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[info]kleenexwoman
2004-10-24 07:17 pm UTC (link)
This is wonderful.
The OMG!Iwannabeavampyre reasons you put forth in #1 are all too often reasons that people want to be vampires in real life. I know a lot of these people--idiots who are certain they are vampires because they have pale skin and don't like garlic, or rilly rilly want to be a vampire because Lestat is like so sexy, or are certain that they are a dark and tortured soul who deserves to be made into a pasty undead.
As for #3...Yes. I'm actually co-writing a vampire story where the protagonist has been turned into a vampire against her will. She does not angst about drinking blood--she treats vampirism as a condition, much like diabetes. She wears sunscreen, takes powdered deer blood pills, and gets on with life. (I think the co-writer is starting to hate me for this; she's much more of an Anne Rice "great to be a vampire" type.)

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[info]limyaael
2004-10-24 07:26 pm UTC (link)
I think 1) is a problem with a lot of urban fantasy. The authors tend to put in people who want to encounter that kind of thing in real life. Not that there's necessarily anything wrong with that, but it can get boring when the cast consists solely of geeky/Wiccan/hippie stereotypes, and apparently the "ordinary people" who make up the urban setting are nonexistent or alies of the evil vampires or elves. And of course it can lead to a lot of author self-indentification, and inability to tell when the character is going overboard.

*snork* Deer blood pills. That's great.

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[info]penmage
2004-10-24 07:38 pm UTC (link)
Great essay. I'm in the middle of slogging through the latest Anita Blake novel, for closure's sake, I suppose, and this is refreshing.

Have you read Companions of the Night by Vivian Vande Velde? It's one of my favorite vampire books, and I don't think it violates any of your cliches.

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[info]limyaael
2004-10-25 07:48 pm UTC (link)
I haven't read that book, no, though I've heard of the author. Is it urban fantasy, or set in a different world, or what?

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(no subject) - [info]penmage, 2004-10-25 08:08 pm UTC

[info]jenlittlebottom
2004-10-24 07:39 pm UTC (link)
*grins* My most-almost-done novel has vampire-like creatures, and yes, >.> they're energy-feeders. Forgive me. Taking a little makes someone drowsy and confused - taking a lot would knock them out for a while, and take enough and they die. In addition, some people become addicted to the sensation and will actually seek them out - generally these are taken on as thralls, and the continued feeding turns them into rather dopey, lobotomised things.

Actually, I think Leander, the eldest of them all who's under the impression he's a god, doesn't quite approve of making people bleed. It's messy and unnecessary.

What do you think of revenge as a motivation for becoming a vampire/other evil thing-in-the-night? As in, he needs the vampire-type strengths to have a chance of beating up Big Evil. we'll ignore for now the fact that Bigger Than Big Evil is living in his head and egging him on

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[info]criada
2004-10-25 12:46 pm UTC (link)
>>What do you think of revenge as a motivation for becoming a vampire/other evil thing-in-the-night? As in, he needs the vampire-type strengths to have a chance of beating up Big Evil.<<

I'm doing something like that. First off, I'm working with a society with two separate cultures, the minority and majority. They look mostly alike, but the majority oppresses. I've got a deaf/mute guy who, because he is deaf (can't hear secrets) and was mistaken for one of the leading race, has been taken in as a random drudge by one of the leaders. He wants to take advantage of his position, and a vampire who's been watching him offers to turn him from a deaf skinny illiterate, into a superhuman folk hero who can feast on the blood of his enemies. I originally was going to have him regain his hearing, but I think it would be more interesting to keep him that way, and let other vampiric senses compensate. So now I'm creating the Yasser Arafat of vampires.

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(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2004-10-25 07:52 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]jenlittlebottom, 2004-10-26 05:15 am UTC

[info]tsuki_no_bara
2004-10-24 07:50 pm UTC (link)
pretty much all my vamp characters are more like mortals who can't go out in the sun, except they're a little stronger and have better eyesight and don't die.... but they don't angst, especially not about having to drink from living humans, and most of them wanted to be turned. and only one is in love with a mortal.... but, uh, they're all beautiful....

but i also started writing them because i thought i could do a better job than anne rice, so.

the gilda stories is the book by jewelle gomez. i read it in grad school but i don't remember that much about it. gilda's not a slut, tho, definitely, and i don't remember pages and pages of unrelieved angst....

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[info]otakukeith
2004-10-24 07:52 pm UTC (link)
I think the most obvious and compelling reason a mortal would want to become a vampire is the immortality. I for one wouldn't mind living forever (I'm not particularly scared of dying even though I don't believe in an afterlife, but I have an unholy horror of wasting away and losing my mind to old age), though I wouldn't want to become a vampire to do so - I'm a frickin' vegetarian, I'd go nuts if I had to drink human blood to survive.

But, as you say, often this isn't the reason people seem to want to be vampires. It's because they want to be KEWL.

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[info]limyaael
2004-10-25 07:53 pm UTC (link)
And even the immortality isn't all it's cracked up to be. The body's dead most of the time, you have to maintain the immortality by feeding on other people (most books about elves and angels don't show THAT), you're vulnerable to things most mortals would brush off, etc. I don't think that the character should just make the decision without considering the consequences, or at least that the consequences should bite him in the ass sooner or later.

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(no subject) - [info]onyxflame, 2006-03-13 05:55 pm UTC

[info]beccastareyes
2004-10-24 08:00 pm UTC (link)
This reminds me of the Senior Gamer Twink that went to my high school. SGT loved the RPG Vampire: the Masquerade. As is his normal gaming pattern, he attempted to create the most badass characters possible for the system (usually modeled after whatever anime he was nuts over at the time -- at least one of his V:tM characters was a rip of D from Vampire Hunter D). Which usually meant buying off a vampire's weaknesses to everything as soon as possible.

At least his characters never angsted, because I have a feeling that they shared SGT's mentality that 'Being able to beat up anything and everything is cool.'

Re: Crosses: One thing I've seen (in D&D and Discworld at least) is that fantasy-vampires become vulnerable to holy symbols of any sort (sometimes only if weilded by a devout member of the faith in question), as the cross may or may not be a religious symbol in that world.

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(Anonymous)
2004-10-25 07:32 am UTC (link)
Re: Vampire the Masquerade power gamers

Don't I know them. On one such character I dumped three houses until he finally had the good grace to stay dead.

inge

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(no subject) - [info]onyxflame, 2006-03-13 05:57 pm UTC

[info]erikomyoujin
2004-10-24 08:06 pm UTC (link)
Never tried vampires, but the servant rant will be insanely useful. A servant is one of the main antagonists in a story I've been working. Horray.

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[info]trinity_clare
2004-10-24 08:07 pm UTC (link)
In one fell swoop, you have resurrected my vampire story (no pun intended). My vampires took over a city on the outskirts of civilization and are living it up there. They have strict regulations on changing other people into vampires, because they put a lot of emphasis on bloodlines. I think my favorite part of it always was when the mortal heroine (who needs to be rewritten in the worst possible way) finds out that one of her vampire almost-friends changed a twelve-year-old girl. Somebody told me this is from Anne Rice, but I've never read anything of hers so it's not that. Anyway, she has to deal with the fact that he has what amounts to a daughter and he feels absolutely no remorse about changing her. I kind of liked that part. Maybe I'll make it more important to the story. Yay for ideas!

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[info]limyaael
2004-10-25 07:54 pm UTC (link)
Glad I could help.

Anne Rice's vampires resurrect a six-year-old girl, not a twelve-year-old girl. Part of the reason it's a no-no is because she didn't choose it, and she's a lot weirder than some of the "adult" vampires. That, at least, I did like- it showed there might be a reason behind some of the odd laws that vampires tend to have.

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(no subject) - [info]trinity_clare, 2004-10-25 09:15 pm UTC

[info]zekk_skywalk
2004-10-24 08:09 pm UTC (link)
Yes, thank you for pointing out the bit on "psi-vampires"...one of the characters I write about does that-- and uses it as an offensive weapon-- if he is able to drain you as such, you could end up unconscious for weeks or in a coma for the rest of your life depending. On the flip side, when he does this, he can end up psychologically unbalanced depending on how much he does it-- drain them fully, and he will get a rush, sure, but after thats gone he has to suffer his mind basically going ADD on him and not be able to rest from too many thoughts going through his mind. One of the reasons I even made him like this is because I wanted to explore those kinds of problems and drawbacks that I've seen not explored by various writers. Just because its dark, gothic, sexy, cool, ect doesn't mean it doesn't have drawbacks just like a romanticized warrior should probably have nightmares of slaying lives to go with thier profession or whatever...

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[info]youraugustine
2004-10-24 08:09 pm UTC (link)
::grin:: I have vampires, too. They are:

  • attention-deficeit on an adult standard. A hundred and fifty year old vampire would have the attention span of your average/stereotypical sixteen year old. Maybe.
  • literally incapable of sexual fidelity. The chemicals in their brains are literally wired to need a spontaneous variety of partners or the endorphins and other reward chemicals stop and the vampire winds up in a suicidal depression
  • mortal. They live (like my werewolves) to be about two to two and a half hundred years old, then decay and die.
  • sterile.

    On the upside, the magical-virus does rewrite the code of one's body to be as attractive/perfect as it can be, one is much stronger, resistant to all disease and though inherently mortal, unharmable by anything except wood (sunlight doesn't kill; eyes and skin are just hyper-sensitive). Etc.

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  • [info]arabel
    2004-10-24 08:11 pm UTC (link)
    Aaaaaaah, nice!

    It's so good to see this, and it warms the cockles of my little, black heart.

    I find non-European vampire/demon mythologies really interesting. I mean, the whole thing about throwing lentils at them, which they have to stop and count, thus allowing you to get away. I mean, I know they were well parodied in 'Carpe Jugulum', but I was really surprised as to how many of those mythologies actually exist.

    Probably not the one about the left sock, though.

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    [info]limyaael
    2004-10-25 07:56 pm UTC (link)
    The one big failure when authors decide not to use Western European ideas is that they persist in using Western European settings. I'd really like to see more that are set within Eastern European, African, South American, or whatever-based settings where those beliefs fit.

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    (no subject) - [info]arabel, 2004-10-25 09:25 pm UTC
    Lentils..? - [info]redempress, 2004-10-26 09:49 pm UTC
    Re: Lentils..? - [info]arabel, 2004-10-26 10:27 pm UTC
    (no subject) - [info]onyxflame, 2006-03-13 06:09 pm UTC

    [info]goldjadeocean
    2004-10-24 08:26 pm UTC (link)
    I loved this! *runs off to scribble huge new world plotwist for her monsters* Your rants rock because they give me headsmack moments.

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    [info]limyaael
    2004-10-25 07:56 pm UTC (link)
    *grin* Glad I could help.

    (Reply to this) (Parent)

    Vampire-story variations
    [info]dsgood
    2004-10-24 08:32 pm UTC (link)
    Roger Zelazny wrote a story answering the question "What feeds on vampires?" (Sorry; I don't remember the title.)

    Richard Matheson's novel I Am Legend,/i> is about the only unchanged human after everyone else has become a vampire.

    (Reply to this) (Thread)

    Re: Vampire-story variations
    [info]otakukeith
    2004-10-24 08:37 pm UTC (link)
    "What feeds on vampires?"

    Easy. Anne Rice and Lynn Flewelling feed on their money-making energy. :P

    (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

    (no subject) - [info]billradish, 2004-10-24 11:35 pm UTC
    (no subject) - [info]otakukeith, 2004-10-25 01:29 am UTC
    (no subject) - [info]billradish, 2004-10-25 01:31 am UTC
    Re: Vampire-story variations - (Anonymous), 2004-10-25 07:37 am UTC
    Re: Vampire-story variations - [info]othercat, 2004-10-25 01:42 pm UTC
    Re: Vampire-story variations - [info]twilight2000, 2007-01-04 06:40 am UTC

    [info]tyraarane
    2004-10-24 08:39 pm UTC (link)
    Thank you for ranting on angsty vampires. I shall now take that information and beat Lannen over the head with it until he is in an unconcious state on the floor.

    Then, maybe, he will stop whining. *facepalm* (Lannen is a priest who was turned into a vampire very much against his will and used as a pawn by the clan that turned him. He thinks this is something of a free "24/7 whining" pass. Oi.)

    Amen also to the vampiress-as-slut rant--one of the multiple reasons why I can't stand the Anita Blake series. Fortunately my vampiress seems to have escaped that stereotype--by being a right power-hungry bitch. She's too busy practicing magic to sleep around.

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    [info]limyaael
    2004-10-25 07:57 pm UTC (link)
    The vampiress could have many partners; I wouldn't object to that. (I think Jewelle Gomez's character Gilda is a black lesbian vampire). I just wish the author wasn't so quick as to condemn them for being sluts.

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    [info]tistur
    2004-10-24 08:52 pm UTC (link)
    Have you read Robin McKinley's Sunshine? It presents an interesting take on vampires. (It seems a lot of people don't care for the way it was written - the prose was remniscent of Rose Daughter - but its take on vampires was the best I've read in years.

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    [info]limyaael
    2004-10-25 07:58 pm UTC (link)
    I haven't read it, but Rose Daughter bothered me. Barely anything happened. I liked her earlier books much better, so if I do read Sunshine, I'll be reading it in paperback.

    (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

    (no subject) - [info]tistur, 2004-10-25 09:28 pm UTC
    (no subject) - [info]onyxflame, 2006-03-13 06:14 pm UTC

    [info]lemurkat
    2004-10-24 09:15 pm UTC (link)
    I have two words for you regarding this section:
    4) Why is eating “psychic energy” less harmful?

    Slake Moths. From "Perdido Street Station". They're a giant moth(ish) creature that feeds on emotion. They are one of the most terrifying creatures I have ever come across in literature. Anybody who portrays psychic mind-draining as less harmful then blood NEEDS to read this book. Of course, there's also not enough romance and angst to satisfy the sort of people that would be likely to need to read it.

    It's by China Melville, one of the darkest, grimmest and most excellent authors I have read in the last year. Check him out.

    Kat

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    [info]limyaael
    2004-10-25 07:59 pm UTC (link)
    People keep telling me to read that book. The main reason I've been resisting is that I've gotten the feeling that Mieville, like Neil Gaiman, is an author I HAVE to like. I like Gaiman's comics and short stories, but have been utterly unable to force myself through his novels. I sort of imagine not liking Mieville and then having to answer to a tribunal of his angry fans.

    (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

    (no subject) - [info]alex_von_cercek, 2004-10-27 12:19 pm UTC
    Classic Vampires
    [info]isdestroyer
    2004-10-24 09:17 pm UTC (link)
    If none of you have, I suggest reading Dracula by Bram Stoker. It is the book that spawned the modern vampire stories and myths. Stoker paints Dracula as the evil S.O.B. that he truly is. The story is written in an odd way, in letter form. The story progresses through diary entries and letters and some people find that hard to read. It does tend to go into a lot of description and that is probably why it is difficult, but it was written in 1897, so that may account for it (either that or it's simply that Bram did not have the benifits of these rants). And (once again) I feel that D&D does a nice job of explaining things. Being a vampire is a magical disease of the blood, which is why they are driven to suck fresh blood. Since garlic naturally helps to purify the blood, it is detrimental to a vamp's health. The whole sunlight/holy symbol thing is because they are undead, a thing of an unholy nature. Of course, the personality of the vampire would depend upon the DM, but if done right, they become true monsters. I honestly don't know where the whole running water thing comes from, perhaps it is because flowing water cleanses things or something. Though more likely, in the superstisious mind of the people way back when they had to come up with a way to get away from a thing that did not exist and running water seemed the best way. After all, think how hard it is to cross a river without a bridge. Surly, for as difficult as it is for us humans, it MUST be impossible for a figment of our imagination. I like the way my DM described the reason why a vampire looks the way it does. When a person is made into a vampire, it is like taking a picture. The vampire is forever imprinted that way, and should anything mar it, it reasserts itself to the original. I don't know why they are so beautiful though. The other thing I don't understand is, where does all that blood go? Their bodies are dead, so the heart cannot pumpit nor the stomach and intestines digest it, so what happens? Yes, I know that they are a fictional, magical creature, but I cannot help but wonder. Perhaps it too, stems from humans creating a reason for something they did not understand.

    (Reply to this) (Thread)

    Re: Classic Vampires
    [info]isdestroyer
    2004-10-24 09:25 pm UTC (link)
    I don't get the mirror thing either. Mabey since they don't exist, they can't cast a reflection, heh.

    (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

    (no subject) - [info]billradish, 2004-10-24 11:38 pm UTC
    Re: Classic Vampires - [info]art_of_kore, 2004-10-25 12:59 pm UTC
    Another comment:
    [info]lemurkat
    2004-10-24 09:19 pm UTC (link)
    but people who don’t dream can eventually go insane.

    In sleep and dream deprivation experiements on animals it was found that some animals will DIE if deprived of dreams (as identified by REMs). Yet they still don't know WHY we dream.

    Kat

    (Reply to this)


    [info]lnhammer
    2004-10-24 09:21 pm UTC (link)
    L.J. Smith does, in the first Night World book, give a very compelling reason her heroine agrees to become a vampire: pancreatic cancer. There's other silly bits, in that and later books, but that at least was rock-solid (and a fun read, in a chronic-fatal-illness sort of way).

    ---L.

    (Reply to this) (Thread)


    [info]onyxflame
    2006-03-13 06:20 pm UTC (link)
    In some book in my series, I fully intend to have an 80 year old woman who begs a vampire to do the ritual on her. A granny vampire running around could be *quite* interesting...ooo wait, she can wear dentures and fall in love with the other denture-wearing vampire!

    *sigh* Must stop thinking about future books when I haven't even finished book 1 yet...

    (Reply to this) (Parent)

    One More Thing.
    [info]isdestroyer
    2004-10-24 10:01 pm UTC (link)
    About female vampires. I think (and I could be very much mistaken) that back in the day, women were considered to less than a man. They were supposed to be subserviant. A women back then (and even in Bram's time) was though to be a pure thing, the virgins anyway. A vampire is a corruption of a natural thing, a thing impure. So when a story from that time period (meaning most of history up to about the Seventies) depicts a female vampire as being a lesser vampire than the males and more of a whore, it is because of the view of women back then. Also, women are (and don't try to deny it) driven mosly by their emotions. They have highs and they have lows. Anything in between is on the way to a high or low. Men are, for the most part, less emotional (and remember, I am making a broad generalization). So a female vampire would be more driven by her perverted lusts than an unemotinal male. That's not to say that men are not capable of emotions nor women incapable of rational thought.

    (Reply to this) (Thread)

    Re: One More Thing.
    [info]melarin
    2004-10-25 02:33 am UTC (link)
    It has been proved that woman live longer 'cause we can express our emotions - perhaps the same thing could be said about female vampires?

    (Reply to this) (Parent)

    Re: One More Thing. - [info]cygna_hime, 2004-10-25 05:17 am UTC
    Re: One More Thing. - [info]katiger, 2004-10-25 05:35 am UTC
    Re: One More Thing. - [info]kadaria, 2004-10-25 06:15 am UTC
    Re: One More Thing. - (Anonymous), 2004-10-25 07:42 am UTC
    Re: One More Thing. - [info]isdestroyer, 2004-10-25 08:24 am UTC
    Re: One More Thing. - [info]kadaria, 2004-10-25 11:03 am UTC
    Re: One More Thing. - [info]sir_hellsing, 2004-10-25 08:35 am UTC
    Re: One More Thing. - [info]tiferet, 2004-10-25 11:15 am UTC
    Re: One More Thing. - [info]ramlatch, 2004-10-25 11:48 am UTC
    Re: One More Thing. - [info]isdestroyer, 2004-10-25 12:19 pm UTC
    Re: One More Thing. - [info]goldjadeocean, 2004-10-25 04:15 pm UTC
    Re: One More Thing. - (Anonymous), 2004-10-26 02:49 am UTC

    [info]sanguimane
    2004-10-25 01:52 am UTC (link)
    I have been considering the logistics of vampirism in the back of my mind for some time, trying to tease out what the reality of them might be prior to PERHAPS (but not likely) indulging in writing something about them.

    But the numbers don't add up.

    In some films there are hordes of Vampires all presented as completely unable to delay gratification and needing to feed at least once a night. Which means that this small army attack kill or convert at least one victim a night. The streets would be littered with them!
    Even one vampire in a city would have trouble covering its tracks.

    Physically, they are essentially a dead body and would suffer the drawbacks of having no heartbeat blood flow etc. IMHO these effects would be far more alarming than are generally portrayed.

    The blood drunk cannot possibly enter their veins from the stomach and must therefore be consumed and distributed in such a way as to prevent necrosis and the ageing process. No doubt there is some magical process that facilitates this but it is interesting to posit that the vampire is in fact a creature 'stuck' in time, frozen as it was when made and unable to change. The blood drunk fuels the occult effect rather then feeds the dead body.

    The older notion that the vampire is a ghost and has some of the attributes of a discarnate spirit seems to be lost in favour of a very fleshly creature. Perhaps some of the more discarnate elements need a return?

    (Reply to this) (Thread)


    [info]kadaria
    2004-10-25 05:49 am UTC (link)
    >In some films there are hordes of Vampires all presented as completely unable to delay gratification and needing to feed at least once a night. Which means that this small army attack kill or convert at least one victim a night. The streets would be littered with them!
    Even one vampire in a city would have trouble covering its tracks.<

    I've never thought about that but it seems so logical that you can't have a ton of vampires in one area. It's the same reason that large predators such as tigers need miles and miles of habitat, they need that much prey within the area to support them. Hmm, it would be interesting to write about ultra-territorial vampires. I wonder how much trouble a "just turned" vampire has in acquiring a new territory.

    (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

    (no subject) - [info]sanguimane, 2004-10-27 02:47 am UTC
    Factoid - [info]kadaria, 2004-10-27 05:14 pm UTC
    Re: Factoid - [info]sanguimane, 2004-10-28 05:04 am UTC
    (no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2004-10-25 08:00 pm UTC
    (no subject) - [info]sanguimane, 2004-10-27 02:54 am UTC
    (no subject) - [info]onyxflame, 2006-03-13 06:44 pm UTC

    [info]mushroomhunterd
    2004-10-25 02:11 am UTC (link)
    As someone who is seriously considering starting a vampire story, thank you. Thank you very much.

    I really really really hate domesticated vampires. I read a blurb for a book once where this vampire ordered his blood online from some kind of vampire bank and ate ham and pineapple pizzas as well because no one had told him that vampires couldn't eat food. Needless to say, I dropped the book so fast there was a sonic boom.

    Vampires are dead. No heart beat. I'm willing to allow breathing, because that's semi-voluntary and would be a hell of a hard habit to break, especially since you'd have to breath when you wanted to speak. Oh, and no pulse means that, unless they'd fed recently, your male vampires won't...err...perform very well. Their sterility, as far as I'm concerned, is a given.

    My vampire is going to be rather cruel and extremely gleeful. I think if you've 'lived' that long you either have to laugh or cry. I'd rather read about a vampire who laughs at humanity rather than angsts over hurting it.

    -[)

    (Reply to this)


    [info]eclective
    2004-10-25 04:33 am UTC (link)
    The fic I'm cowriting now has a vampire character, and she is 3) not in the slightest angsty over being a vamp and 7) most definitely not a slut. ^_^ She's also not the char I'm writing, though, so I haven't seen yet how the other limitations will shape up (though in the universe I'm writing in the two main characters are basically "destined" - aargh, I hate that term - for multiple reasons that are a lot more complex and dark than We Just Want To Be Cuz We Are In Teh Wub, so I'm guessing vamp will eventually turn non-vamp). I'll pass this along.

    (Reply to this)


    [info]edda
    2004-10-25 04:43 am UTC (link)
    You are wise. You are funny. You are fun to read.

    You are friended.

    If you really hate random friendings, just say so and I'll take you off my list. But you're so damn entertaining I'm going ahead for now.

    (Reply to this) (Thread)


    [info]limyaael
    2004-10-25 08:01 pm UTC (link)
    I don't mind at all. *friends back* This was a very, very nice comment to get after an exhausting day. :)

    (Reply to this) (Parent)


    [info]cygna_hime
    2004-10-25 05:26 am UTC (link)
    I feel slightly better about my vampire story now. 1)There is no way my vampire hero is going to turn anyone, least of all his friend or an annoying little girl. 2)He is twenty-three, so no ancient-ness problem there. While he and his co-star may or may not be in some kind of romantic relationship, I will see myself drained dry before I see Adam (the vampire) become mortal. 3)He does not angst. In fact, the characters refuse to angst at all. It's very annoying. 4)Got me. Raw steak has always been good enough for Adam. 5)He's a vampiric vampire hunter. Limitations? Heck yeah. He's reduced himself to dust deliberately on one occasion to do the same to another vampire. Yes, he came back. But still--no sunlight, no holy water, no holy symbols, no garlic. It's inconvenient. 6)Vampires may or may not reproduce with humans. None of them have ever mentioned the topic to me. 7)If a female vampire ever shows up, I have a sneaking suspicion she'll be just as normal as Adam. The underwire nightdresses are bloody uncomfortable, I gather.

    I hate angsty vampires who look like vampires. Thus, my vampire character is an easygoing blond whose hair is always full of dust. His (human) partner looks like someone out of an Anne Rice novel. This is how I amuse myself.

    (Reply to this)


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