Limyaael ([info]limyaael) wrote,
@ 2004-10-26 12:01:00
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Current mood: bitchy
Entry tags:character type rants, fantasy rants: autumn 2004, pay attention to: class

Servant rant
The rant on servant characters- something I've been thinking about quite a bit lately, since I have a main character in one of my stories who's a servant.



1) It is okay to have servants who are neither heart-of-gold loyalists or dirty sneaky traitors. This schizoid characterization of extremes reminds me of the way that people often characterize elves: either beautiful noble creatures who want nothing to do with humans, or fragile weepy things that need humans to save them. There is no in-between. There is no attempt to make it seem as if the elves are individuals rather than just a group. And the same thing happens to servants.

The first stereotype is usually for a servant who works for the hero (or heroine; I think it might be even more common for the lonely princess to have a loyal maid or nurse or handmaid). This servant is perfectly good and perfectly wise. She wants nothing for herself, not even more money or less danger. She only wants to serve her master or mistress. If she can spy at great risk to her life, then she does it. If her master or mistress so much as hints at wanting something, she goes to fetch it. She's probably happiest when she can die for them. Etc.

Quite frankly, those servants freak me out. They remind me of the mammy stereotype in old movies with black servants, or books like Gone With the Wind. The racial element is sometimes openly present in fantasy books as well, where a darker-skinned servant is working for a white-skinned prince or princess. The absolute loyalty, tendency to be "street-smart" but use all those smarts only in the service of her master or mistress, and to care for her employer more than her own family are all evident.

The dirty sneaking traitor of a servant is rarer, but can never be excused when it happens. A servant takes money to betray the confidences of a prince or princess? Then it doesn't matter how badly she was treated, or in what dilemma she might have been, or what her own dreams and desires were. How dare she betray the prince or princess!

This is nasty, open, in-your-face class bias. And it's coming from authors who claim that the prince or princess is good because he or she really loves the servants and treats them like people. (Not true most of the time. See point 2). Just once, think about your story from the perspective of the servant. Why is she so loyal? Does she really have any reason to be? What dreams and desires and ambitions might she have that are crushed or kept in check by having to work as a domestic servant for someone else? What kind of emotion might she build towards that?

2) If aristocratic characters are sensitive towards servants, portray them as, well, sensitive. You know the fantasies. The one where the main reason Good Angsty Noble A is such a good noble is because he "pays attention to people, and sees the servants as human, and really knows what they want." He hangs out in the kitchen and is friends with the cook's son. He rescued the scullery maid from drowning once. He knows just how hard it is to prepare meals and clean because he's asked.

And then the author portrays him walking into a court party with his bodyguard, treating the bodyguard like a piece of furniture, and utterly ignoring the servants.

I'm not sure whether to laugh or beat the author over the head.

...Wait, no rule says I can't do both. *hefts rock*

Look. If you're the one making a claim about your characters, saying that so-and-so is a wonderful person because she really sees everyone as a human being (or elven, or whatever) and thinks about the work they have to do and helps them out, then you're the one who's responsible for making the person actually behave that way. The servants shouldn't just disappear out of the character's consciousness, or get treated like furniture or plot devices the moment court intrigues start. That makes the servants less than people, less than characters, hell, less than plot devices. It denies them the place in the story that you gave them.

I would much rather see an aristocrat who's sneering and evil about servants, and learns better, than one who's so understanding and wonderful, but is only that way because the author tells me so. Telling me about your characters only takes the story so far. If the character contradicts that telling flatly, or the author makes no attempt to sustain it, then it should be cut out, not made an integral part of the aristocratic character's personality.

3) Consider what servants do when they aren't around their masters. I'm trying, and failing, to remember a scene in a fantasy novel that takes place in servants' quarters and doesn't have an aristocrat around to provide the eyes through which the reader sees. Of course the servants are jolly in such scenes, and have ever so much more fun than those people in the stuffy party up above, and meanwhile every one of them worships the hero or heroine for joining them (*stabbity-stabbity-stabbity*).

What are servants like when they're not under such eyes, however? Do they voice what they're really thinking? Do they complain? Do they gamble, drink, swear, do things their masters wouldn't want them to do? Do they cook and clean for their own families as well as for their masters? Do they have places to sleep, food to eat, entertainments to attend, and how do those things compare to the aristocratic ones? (There's a bit of social commentary that most fantasies don't get into).

Even heroes who are servants often don't have lives of their own. Instead, their thoughts and experiences revolve around serving the aristocrats and trying to figure out ways to have the same things and get a noblewoman or nobleman to notice them. And, of course, half the time those "servants" turn out to be hidden royal heirs anyway.

4) Consider that a spoiled princess to a servant may be just that- a spoiled princess. You are a servant, let us say- a young woman who's just had her first child. You get up early, nurse the babe, get dressed, and leave the child in the care of your sister, who's sick and can't work right now. You gather a bit of bread and cheese for yourself, eat, and then fetch a tray for the lady in the eastern wing. You carry the tray up a long flight of stairs to the door. You open the door, carefully. The first thing the lady does is shriek that she doesn't want to wear a gown and throw a pillow at you, tipping the food all over you and ruining your dress- the only one you own.

Why, I wonder, would a servant be inclined to pity Miss "I-Don't-Wanna-Wear-A-Gown!" after that?

This is an extension of a principle I've been propounding all along in these rants (you may have noticed): that characters other than the protagonist are real and have lives and motivations. If they exist only to reflect the protagonist's glory and comfort her when she doubts herself, you don't have a protagonist; you have an Author's Darling. Author's Darlings need to be hanged, drawn and quartered, and their bodies burned. There is no place for them in fiction that's supposed to be more than wish-fulfillment. And enough fantasy is written to be wish-fulfillment already; the genre's certainly suffering no lack of it.

With servants, the case is more urgent than it is with, say, other nobles who are the social equals of the supposed protagonist. The servants have a whole host of problems that Miss "I-Don't-Wanna-Wear-A-Gown!" has never been exposed to. She most likely doesn't have a kid (authors find them an inconvenience, and anyway, she's supposed to only have children when she marries her own true love). She has a limitless supply of clothes. She doesn't prepare her own food or wash said gowns, or even the trousers that she probably prefers; it gets to the point where I grit my teeth when a princess character dumps her dirty clothes on the floor and then whines about how hard her life is. She doesn't have near as regimented a day. She certainly has time to run about the grounds and ride and fence, the lessons that her parents often suddenly threaten to take away from her. She can most likely read and write, and enjoys many other privileges that are more minor.

Put yourself in the servant's shoes to see your aristocratic protagonist during the scenes when you have them interacting with servants. It might give you a whole new, and hopefully more realistic, perspective on what your protagonist could look like to someone else.

5) The imbalance of power is meaningful. That means that if your aristocratic noblewoman is cornered and almost raped by a noble at a ball, there's every chance that said noble has raped a servant woman. If a nobleman gets angry but doesn't hit his wife or family, who does he take his temper out on? Maybe the animals, maybe the servants. Those who lack the right amount of power, and the right blood, to defend themselves are going to suffer far more often than the aristocrats.

They suffer in smaller ways, too. Their movements are regimented; a servant who's plucking flowers, except on a lady's orders, would probably be ordered back to work, while that's unlikely to happen to a nobleman's daughter. They're working for a wage, with all the uncertainties that implies, while most noble characters have inherited wealth. They don't have the time to attend to their hair and skin the way that ladies in fantasy do, they don't have as many clothes, they have to take care of their own clothes and messes instead of trusting other people to wash them or clean them up, and they probably don't have the time or water to bathe even if their society is one that thinks it healthy. (Some medieval societies didn't- for nobles or servants). If a servant woman does make an effort to look pretty, the chances of her being raped or seduced and left could be greater. They can be commanded by most other people. Little gradations of rank among servants themselves can be very important, because small privileges go with them, and privileges in such an environment really matter. A servant who works in the stables might well be jealous of a house servant who doesn't sweat as much and doesn't dirty his hands as much. Their lives can be as complicated as the nobility's, though the intrigues might be for different stakes.

I'm amazed that more fantasy writers don't handle servant characters, really. The resentment and the longing to get away seems as if it would more likely propel a servant into adventure than a pretty pretty princess who's had everything her own way most of her life.

6) Don't take stereotypes for reality. Done right, servants can be characters as deep and meaningful and profound and complex as any noble. The stereotype in fantasy, and in history for that matter, is that nobles had incredibly rich inner lives while the people who served them did nothing but what their masters told them, and thought nothing but about their next task.

This is just completely silly. So the stereotype exists. It doesn't mean that you have to follow it, especially when following it is what most fantasy books do. Have a servant who can think, who can be sarcastic, who rebels in small ways against the restrictions of her role. She doesn't have to be the savior of the world because of her bloodline or her magic. Perhaps she longs for just a bit of excitement or danger or change, so she steals a bauble from a traveling mage's cloak, intending to put it back once she's looked at it and dreamed. The bauble explodes in her hands, and directs the bad guys who were circling the castle looking for the mage to her. The bad guys snatch her instead. Here's excitement, and danger, and change, and the servant in deep shit and having to survive it without playing that hoary story that she's really a descendant of hidden royalty.

Servants can be as boorish, stupid, silly, vicious, and gossipy as the next fantasy character. The mistake lies in thinking they have to be.



Rant on the dead and necromancy is next.




(Post a new comment)

Heh!
[info]xianghua
2004-10-26 09:09 am UTC (link)
I like this one. *prints out and takes a million copies to her writers group.*

I know I say she does things well a lot, and she is technically a YA writer, but Tamora Pierce has a number of interesting servant characters, and quite a bit of the plot of one of her books revolves around a servant.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Heh!
[info]melarin
2004-10-26 09:30 am UTC (link)
Lalasa being the best example.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Heh! - [info]xianghua, 2004-10-26 10:54 am UTC
Re: Heh! - [info]melarin, 2004-10-26 11:24 am UTC
Re: Heh! - [info]holyschist, 2004-10-26 11:24 am UTC
Re: Heh! - [info]melarin, 2004-10-26 11:29 am UTC
Re: Heh!
[info]limyaael
2004-10-29 07:27 am UTC (link)
The problem I have with Tamora Pierce is that I read Alanna first, I think. Alanna bored me. All those trappings- talking animals, special magic, favor of a goddess, three men in love with the heroine, dressing as a boy and somehow not having people figure it out for years, etc.- but none of the spark to make the trappings tolerable. No obstacles, no barriers, all the villains just utterly hateful people, no faults in the heroine herself. I felt I was reading about SpunkyGirl Generic, not an Alanna.

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[info]silverwerecat
2004-10-26 09:26 am UTC (link)
Rant on the dead and necromancy is next.

Needless to say, I'm eagerly waiting for this one.

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[info]marumae
2004-10-26 09:41 am UTC (link)
Same here, ^_^; I've my own system of Necromancy that I've been developing for the past 4+ years and I'd like to see how it matches up to what you reccomend for decent elements in fantasy...

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(no subject) - [info]silverwerecat, 2004-10-26 11:27 pm UTC

[info]alex_von_cercek
2004-10-27 12:07 pm UTC (link)
I want it too. My heroine is a necormancer, after all.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]silverwerecat, 2004-10-27 10:12 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]alex_von_cercek, 2004-10-28 05:23 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]marumae, 2004-10-28 05:40 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2004-10-29 07:33 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]silverwerecat, 2004-10-29 07:34 am UTC

[info]tsuki_no_bara
2004-10-26 09:28 am UTC (link)
re #2 - i think the only time an author can get away with calling the hero sensitive to the lower classes and then showing him at a ball ignoring his bodyguards and all the servants would be to explain why. maybe he doesn't want everyone to know he's friends with the cook's son or that he rescued the scullery maid from drowning and the seamstress treats him like her own son. he's jockeying for a position in court, maybe, and he'll never get it if people think he's *ghasp* mingling with the servants. and then when he moves up in court hierarchy he can actually DO something about the way servants are treated and try to make their lives better.

but otherwise, yeah, i'm so with you on that one. either portray your protagonists as genuinely sensitive to the servant classes, or stop referring to them as sensitive, caring individuals.

re #3 - possibly a different rant, but it made me think of a scene in titanic, when leonardo dicaprio takes kate winslet down to steerage where all the last-class passengers are dancing and playing music and having a grand old time in the most cramped quarters imaginable, wearing the same clothes they had on when they boarded the boat, while in the grand ballroom all the upper classes are being stuffy and repressed and dripping with jewels and silks and fancy clothes, the message clearly being that money don't buy you happiness and the only truly free, fun people are the poor folks because they're so unconstrained by society's rules. which is ABSURD and pissed me off. all those happy dancing poor people DROWNED because no one gave a shit. (which of course james cameron played up for pathos, but we won't go there. i didn't really like the movie.) it seems like at least a corollary of your rant, that servants in their off-hours are happy and free and know how to have fun, even tho their working lives are hard, and the aristos are all repressed and too tightly bound to be who they really want to be, and in order for the royal heroine to be her true bohemian/tomboy/pick-your-adjective self she has to go downstairs and join the servants. *insert eyeroll here* because i'm sure they'd LOVE to have a royal princess dancing with their sons, drinking their beer, and sharing their dinner.

man, being a housemaid or a stablehand is a JOB. people don't do it as a calling, or because they're so devoted to the aristocratic classes. they do it for the money, or because they can't get any other kind of work.

>> And, of course, half the time those "servants" turn out to be hidden royal heirs anyway.<<

agh! i hate that. it makes me gnash my teeth and throw things.

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[info]klgaffney
2004-10-26 09:37 am UTC (link)
but it made me think of a scene in titanic,

YES. same exact scene came to mind. *grrrs at it* i hate stupid movie.

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(no subject) - [info]tsuki_no_bara, 2004-10-26 10:08 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]lainyle, 2004-10-26 12:08 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2004-10-29 07:36 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2004-10-29 07:35 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]tasllyn, 2004-11-21 03:55 pm UTC

[info]klgaffney
2004-10-26 09:48 am UTC (link)
They remind me of the mammy stereotype in old movies with black servants, or books like Gone With the Wind. The racial element is sometimes openly present in fantasy books as well, where a darker-skinned servant is working for a white-skinned prince or princess.

that infuriates me. but i'm also amused by the ignorance. the author is missing the part where there's a huge difference between what everyone learns to say (not to mention the smile and the nod and the pretence to fawning adoration of their masters) and then the things that are said behind closed doors and out of earshot. but i think it's a willful ignorance, because really thinking about that is scary at worst and very uncomfortable at best "but she's taken care of me all my life--smiled at me and picked me up and wiped my tears--how could she HATE my perfect princess character? especially since she's so good and innocent and yaddayadda!!11!!"

easy. mammie's here doing shit she can't do for her own family against her will. it would be easier to ask how could she not? how GOOD the princess is that she's butt-wiping isn't going to do much to make her feel better about it. don't expect her to cheer when said princess saves the kingdom that's keeping her in this position, either.

generally stuff like this i tend to file under "it's uncomfortable in real life, so they don't wanna touch it in their own happy fantasy world." category.

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[info]limyaael
2004-10-29 07:38 am UTC (link)
I remember beginning to hate a story I read recently on the first page, when a "bronze-skinned" maid started helping and consoling and fussing over a "pale blond" princess. And, of course, the maid turned out to have endured the princess's temper tantrums all these years because she wanted to and loved her, and the princess would be the perfect ruler.

The problem with uncomfortable stories is that they make the best ones, and if people get too caught up in writing "fantasy," they tend to produce pastel copies of things already better-written.

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[info]klgaffney
2004-10-26 09:55 am UTC (link)
*grrrs* and there needs to be a comment-correction thingy, 'cause i always remember something else i ment to add, not to mention the corrections on my weird typo-stuff. there was a sentance that's supposed to read "she took care of HER all her life," so on and so forth. i switched gears in mid sentance. -_-;

anyway. i'm also reminded of an article in a magazine where a young woman was in school/training/apprenticeship to learn to be household servant/butler/head of household as a profession (it's a rather lucretive one these days, amusingly enough.). and besides all 5million details there were of running a wealthy aristocrat's home--or worse, the nu-rich and the differences in both was the constant critism she was getting from her instructor, stuff like, "cut your hair, you're too attractive--when mister brings home a lovely trophy wife, she isn't going to stand for seeing another pretty long haired blonde around--you'll be on the street before you can blink." it was VERY interesting. i wish i had saved it. *kicks self*

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[info]maureenlycaon
2004-10-26 11:30 am UTC (link)
Darn! I would have liked to read that. It introduces a whole new issue into that nobleman-shtupping-the-maidservant problem -- how will the nobleman's wife react? Most likely, she'll take it out on the unfortunate servant, even if it was a brutal rape. Being fired might not be the worst consequence the servant will face.

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(no subject) - [info]klgaffney, 2004-10-26 11:35 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]avrelia, 2004-10-26 01:35 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]maureenlycaon, 2004-10-26 07:30 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]avrelia, 2004-10-26 08:19 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]maureenlycaon, 2004-10-27 05:44 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2004-10-29 07:45 am UTC

[info]minervasolo
2004-10-26 09:57 am UTC (link)
There was a wonderful series about a year ago called 'servants'. It followed the lives of servants in a country manor in the late 19th century. You barely saw the ruling family, except to boss them about, and the focus was on all the balances of power and the hierachy (sp?) within the servants. Something that always bugs me in fantasy is when the housekeeper and the girl who lights the servants' fires (lowest job of the low, since it meant getting up at about 4am) are treated the same by everyone. No matter how snobby the aristocrat, they'll treat their house keeper and butler with at least some respect, or they'll quit (the highest positions, especially female, were usually in demand since a lot of maid married and only went back to the profession if their husband died) and there'll be no one else to organise the rest of the servants. The master and mistress of the house wouldn't have much personal contact with any other servant - you'd say what you wanted to dinner to the housekeeper, who'd tell the cook, who'd tell the kitchen staff, or you'd say you wanted to go for a drive to the butler, who'd tell the footmen, who'd warn the grooms and stable boys. What an aristocratic child is doing in the kitchen I'll never know.

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[info]napthia9
2004-10-26 02:21 pm UTC (link)
Country Manor? For a mintue that sounded a lot like "Upstairs, Downstairs." Another great piece showing semi-realistic interaction between the servants and their bosses.

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(no subject) - [info]minervasolo, 2004-10-26 02:31 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]napthia9, 2004-10-26 09:15 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]minervasolo, 2004-10-27 01:56 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]napthia9, 2004-10-27 02:01 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2004-10-29 07:46 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]onyxflame, 2006-03-03 05:41 pm UTC

[info]wolfychan
2004-10-26 10:22 am UTC (link)
Have a servant who can think, who can be sarcastic, who rebels in small ways against the restrictions of her role.

Careful with this one, though. I've seen servant heroines who were so sassy and rebelious they wouldn't have stayed employed long, and would be lucky if they didn't end up with a flogging. Rebelling in small ways is one thing; telling the duke "I don't wanna wash your stinky clothes" and having him get flustered and not punish her is something else.

Rant on the dead and necromancy is next.

Oooh. Fun. I'm right now doing preproduction for a film about a man with a resurrected dead girlfriend, so... that'll be cool.

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[info]klgaffney
2004-10-26 11:32 am UTC (link)
agreed. there's a difference between the attitudes and treatment and the give and take between a characters, depending on whether they're a hired, skilled servant, a slave, an indentured servant, a hired, unskilled laborer type servant, etc, as well as whether the person in power is someone that is accostomed to being served and in what capacity. i know i wouldn't be sure how to treat/comfortable with a servant--and would probably err on the side of being to friendly/companiable, or deperately trying to ignore them.

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(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2004-10-29 07:48 am UTC

[info]mhari
2004-10-26 10:30 am UTC (link)
Heh.

I had a firsthand experience of this in RPing -- I only had one (maybe two) "pretty princess" who was any fun at all to play. All the others, whether I made them on a whim or for a specific plot, were a bitch to characterize and didn't get very far.

My favorite female characters from that world remain the kid who went from rags to ill-gotten riches, and the lady soldier who has No. Patience. With the prettypretty princesses and their OMG ANGST. "Look, lady, I'm defending your ass from the drowish psychopaths and the skeevy mysterious travellers. Do Not Give Me Any Guff."

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[info]limyaael
2004-10-29 07:49 am UTC (link)
That's right. There are so many interesting ways to play or write female characters that I never understand why authors seem stuck on noble ladies. They're just not that sarcastic or experienced when compared to a female warrior who's been on the road for years and seen everything the world has to offer.

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[info]lemurkat
2004-10-26 10:50 am UTC (link)
Just as a comment, the aristocrat that is kind to the servants and then treats them like furniture or snears at them isn't necessary a contradiction. Some nobles might be inclined to be nice to the servants when there is noone of their "equal" to see them but when around with their peers (ie; other aristocrats) treat them like crap, because they are showing off or they dont' want to look like sensitive souls in their friend's eyes. This makes for an interesting plot dynamic and also a cause of conflict.

I think servant chars are, if anything, more interesting then nobles. They're also useful at hearing things they shouldn't and sneaking people into, or out of, castles.

Kat

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[info]limyaael
2004-10-29 07:57 am UTC (link)
I've never seen it used as a source of conflict, actually. The author just forgets or has the servants immediately forgive the noble and "understand" everything he does. I want to murder those supposedly sensitive people.

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[info]eisoj5
2004-10-26 11:13 am UTC (link)
Great rant. *thumbs up*

Gosford Park is fabulous for looking at the way that servants' lives differ from the lives of the people (literally) above them. The servants have no identity beyond that which ties them to their mistresses or masters; they are seduced and raped and belittled and it's just a fantastic movie.

(Plus, Clive Owen.)

-josie

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[info]melarin
2004-10-26 11:31 am UTC (link)
the book is good to ;)

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(no subject) - [info]ladyvyola, 2004-10-26 11:49 am UTC

(Anonymous)
2004-10-26 12:44 pm UTC (link)
In more "modernistic" societies, though, servants could be people who *chose* their jobs and trained for the profession-- and who can quit if things get unpleasant. (In some Victorian fiction you get this-- a child is being bratty, the nurse gives notice and will leave in a week, and how will the family find a new nurse before then?)
It still isn't all rainbows and sunshine, of course, but it's a different perspective on the whole thing...

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[info]limyaael
2004-10-29 07:58 am UTC (link)
Most fantasy settings are medieval, and the class structure is very hierarchical. Servants wouldn't necessarily be able to find a job, especially if they left without references and/or pregnant from a rape.

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[info]illian
2004-10-26 12:51 pm UTC (link)
Necromancy should be interesting. I've got a character who is a necromancer (not that it means what they think it means). Will you be doing what necromancy originally was or what it has mutated into due to fantasy books and RPGs?

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[info]limyaael
2004-10-29 07:58 am UTC (link)
Probably what it's mutated into. I don't know enough about what it originally was.

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(no subject) - [info]illian, 2004-10-29 08:15 am UTC

[info]inarticulate
2004-10-26 02:20 pm UTC (link)
I love your rants so much. The thing that I've discovered is that the mistreatment of servant characters lessens if the author is admittedly for the whole power differentials thing. Halfway Human (science fiction) and The Still spring to mind, the second of which acknowledges the fact that the prince is a total brat but that the people below him in class, however little, have to do what he says. And, seriously, my heart broke every time because you could see them losing patience with him, and he was losing all his lifelines that he'd always taken for granted. They weren't servants, but, um. Power differentials! And Halfway Human is about a class of "servants" that are essentially slaves, and I still couldn't tell who was telling the truth by the end because it was all so messed up. And very disturbing.

*happy sigh*

The only loyal-under-any-circumstances servant characters that I've believed have been the servants who were given the job of raising the kid and have more of a parental relationship-- which means the prince/princess actually listens to them. Can't have absolute power and absolute loyalty, I'm thinking. And even then, authors tend to skim over the tensions-- and I say, "come on! You're passing up something that could be really interesting here!" Then again, I'm really interested in power/class differences.

But if you think about it, most people treat people doing the jobs that medieval servants are portrayed as doing (maids, janitors, cooks) as invisible, and perhaps that carries over into writing? *shrugs*

That being said and your essay being fawned over, I can't wait to hear the one about necromancy. It seems so many people forget that necromancy was originally defined as rituals to talk to the dead to find out the future-- a far cry from animating corpses. ;) And considering I really want to bring that back in some story, somehow... Mm. I need to know what to avoid!

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[info]aurorae90
2004-10-26 02:26 pm UTC (link)
You could also mention why a lot of authors make nobility fall in love with the servants or vice versa. But good rant otherwise :) Servants are my heroes.

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(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2004-10-29 08:01 am UTC

[info]sabotabby
2004-10-26 04:55 pm UTC (link)
Yes, and more yes. Nothing makes me hate a book faster than unrealistic class and power dynamics. I'm all excited about the necromancy rant too, 'cause I like necromancy.

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[info]decaf_kitty
2004-10-26 04:56 pm UTC (link)
Nifty stuff. Will keep in mind when writing. Thanks!

//I'm trying, and failing, to remember a scene in a fantasy novel that takes place in servants' quarters and doesn't have an aristocrat around to provide the eyes through which the reader sees. // ---- Tad Williams' Dragonbone Chair? Simon, the little protagonist boy, who forever and ever and ever in the first book lives at the king's castle. You've mentioned it before. I guess it might have slipped your mind. ^^;;

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(Anonymous)
2004-10-27 01:14 am UTC (link)
I'm trying, and failing, to remember a scene in a fantasy novel that takes place in servants' quarters and doesn't have an aristocrat around to provide the eyes through which the reader sees.

This is tricky. The first I could think of was "Les compagnons du crepuscule" by Francois Bourgeon [grrr, I had to "normalize" all the French letters in that or LJ weirds out], which is a graphic novel set at the time of the Hundred Year's War. The main character is a village girl who, together with the boy who used to bully here, are the only survivors after their village is destroyed by the English, and get picked up as servants by some grim knight errand. The most anyone accomplishes in the series is survive swamp monsters, war, werewolves and intrigue, and she does.

My own protagonists tend to be either middle class (academics or artisans) or outsiders (traveling folk, minstrels, witches-for-hire, mercenaries), so the actual noble/servant dynamic, when it becomes relevant to the story at all, usually takes the form of a plot point. Class-bias? You bet. ;-)

inge

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(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2004-10-29 08:17 am UTC

[info]lainyle
2004-10-26 08:03 pm UTC (link)
A bit off topic, but the thought came to mind while reading your #1.

For once I would love to see a book with a person on the "good side" with an annoying, bad-guy-like attitude who doesn't turn out to be a traitor, spy, etc. Or have I missed all the books with such characters?

I love my fantasy, because the characters are in a time of chaos and the class system changes as often as people change clothes. ;> First it was a monarchy (they got defeated and the castle destroyed...), then they tried a utopia-like idea of no leader or classes (which resulted in a hostile enemy takeover carried out with great ease on the enemies' part), and they're currently trying the whole oppressive dictator thing (soon the dictator will be overthrown and the town left in shambles again). I almost feel sorry for them. But hey, it's what you get for thinking you can live a peaceful life without bothering about defending your kingdom.

Sometimes I wonder why more kingdoms don't get taken over in fantasy novels, especially the peaceful ones. Maybe I'm just violent?

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[info]otakukeith
2004-10-27 10:01 am UTC (link)
For once I would love to see a book with a person on the "good side" with an annoying, bad-guy-like attitude who doesn't turn out to be a traitor, spy, etc.

Severus Snape.

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[info]sesana
2004-10-26 09:28 pm UTC (link)
Along the same lines of suggesting sources... Manor House. It's in the reality show genre, but much better. A group of people get sent to an Edwardian-era manor house and get assigned roles, either as servants or as members of the family. Most of the series was about the servants. Very useful to show just how hard it would be to adjust to that life, and a good example of servant to master relations. The lower servants were taught to retreat to a corner and face the wall when the master and lady of the house were in the room, for example. The family loved the servants, but most of them disliked the master of the house intensely.

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[info]robling_t
2004-10-27 03:17 am UTC (link)
The whole "___ House" group of shows PBS has been doing lately are absolutely incredible resources for any writer who wants to examine how our 21st-century assumptions can be completely off the mark, and so far "Manor House" has been my favorite, for showing just how quickly the demands of the work-situation take over despite one's modern egalitarian upbringing. (Look at the trouble they had with the scullery-maid, for example.) Definitely, everybody pop over to the PBS store while we're waiting for the necromancy rant...

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[info]edda
2004-10-27 12:52 am UTC (link)
Has anyone ever written the equivalent of Jeeves from P.G. Wodehouse in fantasy fiction, I wonder?

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[info]traffic_cone
2004-10-27 01:33 am UTC (link)
If anyone has, I want to know immediately so I can read it.

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(no subject) - [info]lnhammer, 2004-10-27 08:20 am UTC
Hi
[info]paendragaan
2004-10-28 11:41 pm UTC (link)
Great rant. I've never really thought about the role servents play. I think I'll put one in my story. It just might present another POV for the family. I've been reading your rants for a while, but this is the first time I've ever commented. They've really helped me. Thank you. Mind if I friend you?

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Re: Hi
[info]limyaael
2004-10-29 08:18 am UTC (link)
Sure, you can friend me. I'm really glad if the rants helped.

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[info]calanthe_b
2004-11-10 04:56 pm UTC (link)
I'm trying, and failing, to remember a scene in a fantasy novel that takes place in servants' quarters and doesn't have an aristocrat around to provide the eyes through which the reader sees.

Any of the kitchen scenes in Patricia A. McKillip's The Book of Atrix Wolfe qualify for this.

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Race/Class and "Taking it out" on those lower
[info]karenrei
2006-02-02 08:51 pm UTC (link)
What you wrote reminded me of a show called "Motherland: A Genetic Journey", in which scientists studied the genes of two black people whose ancestors had been slaves to determine where they came from. One of the two people had a gene that originated in white males in Europe, is carried only on the Y chromosome, and does not exist in any relevant quantity in Africa. The scientists pointed out that about a third of all decendants of african slaves who have no known recorded interracial marriage in their histories have this gene, unlike their African ancestors. It indicates how very commonly slaveowners used their slaves sexually that it would become so widespread.

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