Limyaael ([info]limyaael) wrote,
@ 2004-10-29 15:48:00
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Current mood: aggravated
Entry tags:fantasy rants: autumn 2004, world-building: magic

Rant on necromancy
This deals mostly with clichés of fantasy, as usual, rather than individual things that authors have done or what necromancy was originally.



1) If you mean your necromancers to be scary, write them that way. At this point, making necromancers into "typical" villains, just as with demons or vampires or werewolves or Dark Lords, doesn't work. Black candles and dark rooms and chants and chalk circles aren't enough to scare the reader; they've seen it all before. Neither is purple language like "eldritch depths of the stygian catafalque" going to make anyone cower. You have to give your audience a reason to feel like they're reading horror or dark fantasy (whatever you choose to call this genre that flirts with both). You can't just expect them to feel that way.

Some good ways to make necromancers scarier:

a) Use very straightforward, almost casual language, or an observer to whom a necromantic ritual is usual. This can make the scene seem surreal, uglier or more desperate in contrast.
b) Invent your own tropes and types for a necromantic ritual. So your mage wants to speak with the dead. Does it really matter if he confines them in a circle? So that's what happens as usual in fantasy. Who cares? Is your fantasy world supposed to be connected to those worlds where it happens? No? Then you don't have to imitate them. Perhaps the mage actually has to enter the "space" he creates to speak with the dead and wrestle them into submission before they'll answer him. This might not be the usual necromantic thing to do, but it's the trope in tales like "Tam Lin." For every complaint that, "That's not the way it happens," you can find a different tale where it is the way it happens.
c) Invest the ritual with some risk. Yes, yes, gross things happen during a ritual, the evil necromancer sacrifices his young apprentice, the dead zombie eats a virgin. Whatever. What if the risk is mostly to the necromancer himself? If he has to bleed to feed the dead and drift into a trance-like state to hear their voices, is he going to come back from the trance-like state in time to prevent himself from bleeding to death, or the dead from draining him? Ethically risky magic could be more practically risky as well, to show how dangerous it is, and that necromancers are potentially mad- or have great courage.

2) Decide how much gore you're going to show, and be consistent. You could certainly have your necromancer conversing with rotting corpses. Few authors do. But it bothers me when an author does just one scene with a rotting corpse, to "give the feel" of necromancy, and has the rest of the necromancer's informers or servants be svelte vampiresses or pairs of drifting eyes. (Another thing to remember: Necromancers can speak with the dead. It's a form of fortune-telling in origin. Fantasy necromancers who don't send armies of the dead marching across the world aren't being stupid. They may not be able to do anything more, if the author is being true to that older tradition).

Necromancy has a stereotype in fantasy, but the details often differ from author to author, the way that the details of an elemental magic system will. I go into a fantasy book ready to be alert for what the author is telling me. What are the powers of this magical system? Who can perform this magic? Is it rare or common? What are its limitations? (Too many times, that last question is not answered, or answered only in inconsistent ways). I generally accept that the first time the author shows me something is a kind of truth-testing ground, and if details differ significantly after that, I wonder what happened. In particular, I dislike it when the author starts with an "emotional" scene, such as a gore-splattered one, and after that makes everything else more muted, as if once the reader's attention is won it will always stay involved. Necromancy goes along with every other system of magic in this regard. If things are going to be markedly different later in the book, you will want to explain why.

3) The limits of control over the dead had better be explained. If the necromancer can only command them to speak with him, and only at great risk, then no, I wouldn't fault him for not doing more with them. But if the dead can be raised and used as servants, why not? (Having the heroes always too virtuous to do such a thing makes me vomit). If they can be raised and used as armies, why hasn't someone done that?

If the dead lie, then that might be a limit on truth-telling. How do the necromancers have to adapt to ferret out the truth, instead of being tricked? If the dead have a habit of getting out of control, that would be an excellent reason not to raise servants or armies, but it doesn't explain why the necromancers are calling to them at all. Does it take an iron will, a strong mind, a strong sense of self, a strong sense of reality, to command the dead? All of them? Something else? If it yields great benefits, why isn't everyone a necromancer?

I think most fantasy authors, who can build a system of magic in dazzling working detail, don't want to think about what happens when that system breaks down. Or they don't want to take into account that their protagonists are other than perfect heroes, who would never, no never, try to enslave anyone, even someone who is dead.

By the lights of that culture you're writing about, though, is it enslavement? It might be in our world. It might be in Generic Fantasyland. But you will have to show me why, if the necromancer can safely and cheaply and profitably control the dead, he's not doing it. Moral concerns have to be expressed to matter to the story. If the dead are utterly mindless bodies, tied only to a shred of spirit that doesn't remember who it was or know what it's doing, then moral concerns could be believably much less than in a world where the dead remember who they were and hate someone rousing them from the darkness to use them for information or service or fighting.

4) What is the afterlife like? Have a clear picture. When necromancy's involved, the author often shows a contradiction: a rather happy, fluffy, green-fields and singing-lambs paradise is identified as part of the religious beliefs of the common folk, but the dead all describing the afterlife as dense and dark, peaceful, a sleep they don't want to come back from. (See also point 5).

Here, I think, is a case of a typical Fantasyland afterlife portrait colliding with the typical Fantasyland portrayal of necromancy. Reconcile them. It would be entirely possible to say that the dead don't want to be summoned from dancing in the fields and feasting with the gods. However, to have them speak of that as "sleep" is really strange. Perhaps the dead have a reason to lie and trick mortals, but it would have to be a really good reason. And if they give inaccurate information about the afterlife, why would they tell the truth about anything else? The necromancers who summon the dead mainly to hear the future or what's going on in a different part of the world would no longer have a reason to summon them.

Also, what happens when a young necromancer who believes in the Field of Fluffy Bunnies hears about this peculiar place of motionless sleep from the first dead person he talks to? How does he maintain his belief in the Field of Fluffy Bunnies? Are there two distinct kinds of afterlives? Do the dead go on a journey to the Field of Fluffy Bunnies, and only the ones who are recently departed on that journey can be summoned back? (There's a good reason for the dead to be pissed off: they're going to heaven, and they don't want to be yanked back to retrace their steps). Does every necromancer mentor explain the apparent contradiction to his student? Once again, a question like this could lead to a good source of plot tension or a mystery to be solved, but not explaining the contradiction between believed-in afterlife and apparent afterlife is moronic.

5) What is the effect of necromancy on religious faith? Here are people who know that the dead survive after death, because they've talked to them, seen them, maybe touched one or raised an undead army. The dead, if they can be trusted, might even describe the afterlife to them. How do necromancers relate to the faith-based religions that seem to dominate a lot of fantasy?

Here is where you, as the author, have to do some fancy footwork. Most authors don't want gods interfering in their world. They would upset the plot and put deus ex machinas on everything. So the gods are distant, and the common fantasy person's way of relating to them is described as "belief." That implies faith, a notion that the god is watching you even if you don't receive signs at every turn that yes, he is, and incidentally he knows that you peed on the haystack behind the barn.

Yet necromancers have knowledge. With knowledge of the afterlife, the dead, perhaps even the gods themselves, there is no need for faith. There's especially no need for faith if the version of the afterlife that the necromancers know about is very different from what the common person believes happens to them after death.

So why haven't the churches disbanded? Why isn't the relationship of the common people to the gods based on knowledge instead of faith, and why is death regarded with so much dread and fear of the unknown if they do know?

Perhaps the necromancers have protected the secret. Why? You need a good reason, since people who go into death for the sake of magical wisdom wouldn't seem to have natural inhibitions about spreading that wisdom to others. The "things man was not meant to know" gimmick is overtired and needs to be done just right to work, since so often the grand secrets don't seem to be all that grand, the way most fantasy religious doctrines are simple things at the heart of them. If the churches are powerful enough to make the necromancers afraid, why are they allowing mages not under their direct supervision to do all this research into death in the first place? (Perhaps they're not. Perhaps the necromancers are part of the church, and calling on the dead is part of the worship of that particular god. I've seen that mentioned in fantasy, though never deeply explored; the priests of the undead gods who do it are usually the Bad Guys).

If the afterlife the necromancers find out about is the same one that people believe in, there's no reason that religion has to be destroyed. Yet it should change if it's faith-based and if the necromancers make their work known. That'd be a fascinating story to read, really.

6) Do not make your necromancers think they are Evil, even if they are the villains. I am so tired of this. The author starts a scene that could be genuinely terrifying. The necromancer is summoning the dead. Rotting bodies are rising up around him. He's gesturing with his hands to make them arrange their flesh in such and such a way, a master artist at work. If he slips one step to the left or the right, the dead will consume him.

And in the middle of that he thinks something like, "The village would tremble and suffer before his power. Terros uttered a wicked laugh. They would be sorry they had driven him forth from his home! He would show them the power of evil!"

Please. Who thinks his own laugh is wicked? Who thinks that what he's doing is evil? Maybe if he's insane, yes, but insane bad guys are far, far too overplayed. I would also like to know how, if necromancy is so rigorous and exhausting a form of magic, an insane mage would have the concentration or the ability to advance very far in it.

Done right, a scene from the villain's viewpoint will be exactly like a scene from any other character's viewpoint. He thinks, he plans, he has a personality, he doesn't exist just to set forth weak stratagems- or undead armies- that the hero will easily defeat. The other characters can think of him as a villain night and day if they like, but he won't think of himself that way.

The reason I mention what might seem a common-sense point here is that necromancers are 90% of the time used as the bad guys. The fascination with death and the fact that many fantasy authors think there's a universal moral prohibition against disturbing the dead- there might not be, in a made-up culture- combine to render them so. Some authors apparently see nothing wrong, even when they characterize other "villains" as complex, with making the necromancer a one-dimensional caricature. I'm asking you now to apply the same level of thought to him as to anyone else. Just because you hate him doesn't mean he hates himself.



Rant the next shall concern ghosts.




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[info]bookwormauthor
2004-10-29 12:55 pm UTC (link)
Hi! I found a link to your rants on the NaNoWriMo forums, and I've been avidly trying to read them all. I haven't succeeded yet, but I've already realized just how many things I take for granted when I try to write fantasy, and that I need to think a little more deeply about my assumptions.

So, since you asked to be told, I am friending you. I also want to spread the word about these rants to my NaNo fantasy buddies; I think some of them would love to read them. Your rants have definitely influenced where my NaNovel is going. Thank you!

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[info]minervasolo
2004-10-29 03:54 pm UTC (link)
It took me four days to read all the fantasy essays, which I felt was not too bad at all, considering I even managed to attend a few lectures as well. Opened my eyes to a lot of assumptions I made as well.

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(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2004-10-31 07:28 am UTC

[info]silent_sybil
2004-10-29 01:12 pm UTC (link)
Regarding 1-c-- Aaa! I haven't even finished that story yet, how did you read it? (That's an almost-word-for-word definition of what happens to my Mori when she talks to dead people, as well as the risks involved. Oh... and my necromancers are, um, more protagonists than villains. ^ ^; Not like there's anything wrong with summoning the dead, right?)

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[info]limyaael
2004-10-31 07:29 am UTC (link)
It was just an extrapolation of something that might happen, given that a lot of fantasy books portray the dead as hungry for warmth and life, and I wanted something that would make it dangerous for the mage, as well. *grin* Good luck with the novel; I'd like to see what the concept does in practice.

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[info]wolfychan
2004-10-29 01:39 pm UTC (link)
(Having the heroes always too virtuous to do such a thing makes me vomit).

Hm. You've railed a couple times against having someone avoid using their powers for destruction merely on ethical grounds. I'm just not sure if this makes sense. I mean, in the real world, lots of people are capable of doing horrible things for their own gain, yet don't. If owning a gun doesn't make me shoot everyone I can get away with, why should having magic powers make a fantasy mage conquer the world?

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[info]tavalya_ra
2004-10-29 06:50 pm UTC (link)
I think she means scenes in which the hero won't do something obviously beneficial to himself because it's unethical. Like kicking the villain when he's down. So what if it's unfair- he's the villain. Just kill him already if it will go a long way to solving the problem.

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(no subject) - [info]dnwq, 2004-10-30 03:02 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2004-10-31 07:38 am UTC

[info]sabotabby
2004-10-29 01:48 pm UTC (link)
I've had a grand total of one necromancer-type character. I think I balanced out the silliness of having him practice anthropomancy somewhat by having him otherwise be a pretty upstanding citizen with good taste in suits and really, really mundane evil plans.

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[info]kay_brooke
2004-10-29 02:19 pm UTC (link)
I want to read a story about a culture where necromancy isn't evil or wrong or unethical. Or that has a necromancer that's actually the hero. Non-traditional heroes are fun!

By the way, hi! I've been reading through some of your old posts and I love the fantasy rants. As a fantasy writer I agree with most, and others have made me take a deeper look at my own writing. Would you mind if I added you as a friend?

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[info]mushroomhunterd
2004-10-29 04:06 pm UTC (link)
We might be able to lay some of the blame on DnD for that one. Animating dead (as opposed to resurrecting people) is an evil act. If a cleric tries to create a skeleton, even if it's for a good purpose, they risk an alignment change towards evil.

I think too many fantasy authors take the DnD ruleset as a given. Especially the system of morality.

-[)

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(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2004-10-31 07:40 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]robling_t, 2004-10-31 04:59 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2004-10-31 07:39 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]irian, 2004-11-01 11:02 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]idadebeautreux, 2004-12-18 11:18 am UTC

[info]alex_von_cercek
2004-10-29 02:30 pm UTC (link)
BWAHAHA! I KICK ASS!
Not as much as you, sure, but still a non-neglectable amount.

1) If you mean your necromancers to be scary, write them that way.
She's not supposed to be scary. She's a 12 year old girl. A not particularly nice or well behaved 12 year old girl, sure, with little respect for human life, but still a little girl.

The fact that she IS a necromancer should be a little scary, as well as her apparent lack of morality, but that's about it. Have I mentioned that I love her for lacking morals? It's like a twisted sort of innocence.
Author's Darling, sure. She is.

2) Decide how much gore you're going to show, and be consistent.
Most certainly enough to point out that we left the pretty bunny land behind a while ago.

3) The limits of control over the dead had better be explained.
A dead person, when summoned/caught by a necromancer, is 100% at said necromancer's mercy. Sure, the dead can choose not to cooperate, but the state of being summoned is not something they enjoy. In fact, just existing in the world becomes quite painful.

Most dead people cooperate with the necromancers immediately, in hopes of being released as soon as possible. It's sort of necromancer ethics not to have a dead soul summoned much longer than is neccesary. It keeps everything working, because the dead know they can count on being released after they've done their job.

4) What is the afterlife like?
It's not there. There is no afterlife. After your body dies, your soul floats off and begins to very slowly melt, according to the law of entropy, untill it's utterly gone. This is much like having your brain cut out bit by bit without feeling it. You simply decay.

Of course, that's not what the afterlife is OFFICIALLY LIKE. Officially, there's the Good Place, and the Bad Place, and depending on how obedient you were in life, you get your reward.
Of course, any necromancer will just smirk at this.

5) What is the effect of necromancy on religious faith?
Necromancy is punishable by death. They are viewed as servants of evil, when in reality, serving someone else is not a necromancer would ever do.

In fact, all non-Church magic is evil, and is being rooted out. And they're good at their job, too. Although they don't really have to denounce necromancy, because even under the Old Gods, which are being replaced by the New God, necromancy was viewed as evil, because necromancers have no respect for deities at all.

So people have a natural distrust of necromancers, and always have. Which is why necromancers don't have neon signs declaring themselves as such, at least not most of the time.

6) Do not make your necromancers think they are Evil, even if they are the villains.
Necromancers don't believe in good or evil, or Good and Evil, or Justice, or Mercy or Strength or any such word that starts with a capital letter.
It's based more on their own personal whims.
So, instead of...say, helping a village defend itself from bandits because it's The Right Thing to Do, a necromancer might refuse to get involved, sell the village out for his or her own personal gain, or help the villagers, either for a price or because he or she is irritated enough by the bandits that he or she is willing to take defending the village as an excuse for some decent slaughter.

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[info]lingzer0
2004-10-29 02:57 pm UTC (link)
I think the things you posted above is the reason why I love Garth Nix so much. I'm really glad you did this essay - it's going to be useful...

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[info]limyaael
2004-10-31 07:41 am UTC (link)
I read Sabriel, and you're right, I can't really remember much, if any, of these stereotypes in it. It escaped those. I didn't really find much about the book that compelled me to read on, though.

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Try this:
[info]dsgood
2004-10-29 04:13 pm UTC (link)
The spirits of the dead always lie. So, any necromancer with a little experience knows that whatever the truth is, it's not what the dead say it is. The really smart ones know that what the dead say can be misleading.

But the scrolls/books on practical necromancy don't mention this.

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Re: Try this:
[info]limyaael
2004-10-31 07:49 am UTC (link)
So someone learning necromancy on his own would walk right into the trap? Probably. But I don't think that it could endure beyond the one time that the necromancer asked the dead for information on the movements of his enemies and then walked right into a trap- assuming he survived.

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Re: Try this: - [info]dsgood, 2004-10-31 06:12 pm UTC

[info]marumae
2004-10-29 04:19 pm UTC (link)
This is perhaps the most useful rant (to me) that you have ever written! I developed my own system of Necromancy that is based in this world, but has it's origins in Norse mythology, Ydraggsil, a dying Norse warrior who was tricked by Nidhogg. You've given me a lot of points to use as a check list for solidfying, what I *could* consider my baby. Especially on the conversing with the dead aspect!

The reason I mention what might seem a common-sense point here is that necromancers are 90% of the time used as the bad guys.

This has always bothered me, why do those who work with the dead always be considered "creepy" and "wrong"? Didn't necromancy get it's origins in speaking with the dead for fortune telling purposes? I wish someone would tell me where this "raising undead armies and zombies" thing came from, and why it stuck so much. My necromancers aren't inherently bad, it's their powers that are incredibly dangerous and that's why they have such a bad rap.

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[info]limyaael
2004-10-31 07:49 am UTC (link)
I think a lot of people have a prohibition in their heads (culturally induced or not) against disturbing the dead. So necromancy is by definition yucky. But it wouldn't have to be in another world.

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[info]sparrow_wings
2004-10-29 04:33 pm UTC (link)
Thankyouthankyouthankyouthankyouthankyouthankyou. For my NaNo novel, three quarters of the cast is dead, so they all have to know some necromancy in order to get back and forth between Earth and the afterlife, and this will be really helpful.

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[info]limyaael
2004-10-31 07:50 am UTC (link)
You're welcome. Three quarters of the cast is dead... heh, that sounds interesting.

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[info]otakukeith
2004-10-29 04:52 pm UTC (link)
Speaking of afterlives: The Other Wind was, of course, all about this. I loved the way the characters basically sat down and went "Hold on, our afterlife really sucks. And not everyone seems to go to it. Maybe this is why the dead are begging to be let out?"

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[info]tavalya_ra
2004-10-29 06:58 pm UTC (link)
Necromancy would not work in my world at all. Reincarnation is the rule- you try to summon the dead and you're more likely than not to find out that so-and-so already has a new incarnation. (There are, however, memory regression spells and even form regression spells. When people try to relate to other people as who they were rather than who they currently are, then it gets messy.)

Recently, I've begun some mental work with another world that has ghosts, so I'm looking forward to the next rant.

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[info]corundum
2004-10-29 08:51 pm UTC (link)
Regarding #3, one has to ask, what's the point of raising the dead as zombies? What use are they? I mean, you don't want zombies growing your food, or washing your clothes, or cleaning your castle, right? Yuck! And sure, you *could* use 'em as battlefield fodder, but unless your necromancy is a Unique Special Power, you wind up with a zombie arms race... and two zombie armies duking it out would be the Most Boring Battle Ever.

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[info]goblin_11
2004-10-29 09:13 pm UTC (link)
Well, it depends on the state of the dead. if they are a rotting skeleton, they might not be to useful, but if they are recently deceased they could be. In fact, with proper care you wouldn't even notice the smell at all...

If you assume that zombies can follow basic orders like "go right" and "kill" they can be quite nice. Think about it. They can't be killed by wounding and blasting off an arm might not even slow them down! They don't need health insurance, they don't complain of working conditions and I am not even sure about the need for food. No zombies ever ran off with local girls and deserted either, did they? Give me a zombie army any day of the week!

Also, I wouldn't go with boring. Just unimportant in terms of casualties. It would feel sort of like a real time strategy game from the commander's point of view really. Also, being trapped anywhere near the front would be bad, because zombies have little intelliegnce and end to...stray. And also, how would you give them directions? Shoot everybody in blue? Ah, but what if you sent in a few zombies in red and told them to shoot the red? Would they shoot themselves? Would they be a bit smarter? Do zombies carry a mark of whoever conjured them? And more, now deleted for the sake of everyone's well being. I, for one, second the person who said that they wish to see a seriosuly developed necromantic society.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) - [info]criada, 2004-10-29 11:09 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2004-10-31 07:51 am UTC

[info]youraugustine
2004-10-29 10:12 pm UTC (link)
My necromancer is one of the good-guys. Her path is demonised by the Church, but her own people view her as a sort of a guardian of the gateways, a necessary thing; someone to be feared and respected, sure, but no more than any other being touched by the gods. She watches the pathways between life and death, and if necessary she can call a spirit back, for a while. That's dangerous, though, particularly if a certain god was fond of them, or if they went on to a pleasant afterlife; they might lose their way back, or the god might be Angry that they were coaxed away.

Magher's fun.

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[info]paendragaan
2004-10-29 10:24 pm UTC (link)
Here's an idea that I've had for a while. Have the necromancer only be able to re animate a body that they have killed themselves. That way, it's a lot harder to have a zombie army. You'd be exhausted.

Great rant as always!

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[info]criada
2004-10-29 11:12 pm UTC (link)
I guess it would depend on your requirements for killing. If poisoning is enough, I'm having terrible visions of Jonestown and Heaven's Gate. How's this for scary: thousands of loyal patriots sacrificing themselves to be a part of the army.

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(no subject) - [info]paendragaan, 2004-10-30 03:41 pm UTC

[info]isdestroyer
2004-10-30 12:16 am UTC (link)
Regarding number six: true evil does not think of itself as evil.

For example, Hitler (yes, I know, he's an evil cliche reference but it fits). Sure he was a little crazy, but he honestly believed all that stuff about the "pure" race and that he was justified in killing the jews. HE didn't think he was evil.

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The dead next door
[info]sanguimane
2004-10-30 01:55 am UTC (link)
What i have never quite grasped is why the dead, who lets be frank are only extinct humans, frequently become so 'all seeing and wise, to say nothing of stentorian and blithe, the instant their heart stops. Where do all the legions of misinformed morons go? Why does no seance ever contact a beer swilling foul mouthed fool?

It must be the same mechanism that apotheosizes anyone who is murdered. Of all the unfortunates done for by a stranger that i can recall the victim has always been described as a saint like creature destined for great things had their existence not been so cruelly curtailed with a waffle iron. Never has a killer, no matter how random, managed to knock off anyone universally or even apparently somewhat disliked!

The dead would be as stupid as the living, after all ten minutes ago they WERE the living!
And yet no, here they drift, "Hear me!" they moan, "Hear me foolish mortal..." Elocution lessons must be the first thing they are herded into in the afterlife. Thereafter 'annoying prig' class.

But consider, as I recently did, how weirdly the living act from the veiwpoint of the dead! There you are, standing in a room, perhaps looking out of a window, as the departed seem to enjoy doing. In comes one of those annoying heart beat jockeys. They stare into the opposite corner of the room and intone, "Are you there? Is there anyone there?"
After this dismally stupid question they progress o new heights of idiocy.
"Can you hear me?" Surely one of the stupidest questions ever uttered.
"If you are there, can you pop over here and bruise your discarnate knuckles rapping in this little wooden table for half an hour while we shriek with fright and jump up and down?"
Some invitation.
The dead would be just dead people not transformed into some completely 'otherwise' race.
Hence my character the Medium with foul mouthed and hyper-critical spirit guide, a character who was a joy to write up BTW!

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Re: The dead next door
(Anonymous)
2004-10-30 06:06 am UTC (link)
There is actually a reason why the dead are supposedly able to portent the future or to clarify situations. We live in the temporal world. Hence, we are bounded by time and place. The dead, however, according to tradition, are ethereal and therefore removed from the temporal plane. For them, time does not exist which allows them to see everything that has happened and everything that will happen. Which, of course, is why necromancer's like them so much.

Mind you, that completely depends upon your world's theory of the dead, but it is the reason the dead are normally shown as all-knowing. Unfortunately, due to writers' love of stereotyping the dead's mannerisms, I get the idea that they aren't aware of this and are just copying each other.

There's no reason why becoming all-knowing should make them act exactly the same. Their individual characteristics and personalities should still come through. And why any ghost should wish to amuse themselves with naieve teenagers when they have the the entirety of time to play with leaves me completely baffled...

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Re: The dead next door - [info]limyaael, 2004-10-31 08:00 am UTC
Re: The dead next door - [info]sanguimane, 2004-11-01 12:07 am UTC
yay
[info]decaf_kitty
2004-10-30 08:43 am UTC (link)
Yeah, I friended you ^^ Just for your knowledge!

I totally loved this one, mainly cause one of my three protagonists in the fantasy novel I'm working on is what you would call a necromancer. He, of course, doesn't call himself one, and breaks anyone who might even suggest it. Nonetheless, he does all the speaking with dead, raising dead, etc, stuff a normal necromancer does. Oh, and what? He's on the good side? He saves the hero over and over before the hero gets his footing? Hollah. Glad I'm not the only one breaking out of the box, though! Thanks for the rant!

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Re: yay
[info]limyaael
2004-10-31 08:02 am UTC (link)
Hi. Thanks for telling me!

Are there evil necromancers in your world? If not, it would seem strange for your hero to resent the name.

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[info]wyrmie
2004-10-30 06:36 pm UTC (link)
Hello, long-time lurker, first time poster.

Someone up above mentioned Garth Nix; I'd like to second. Sabriel is one of my most favoritest books ever, and if you haven't read it, you should. I think it's technically YA, but really. He's an example of an author who thinks through all the details and the consequences of his system of magic. I have problems with some of the foundations of his world (namely that science and magic can't coexist; but if machines are based on basic physical principles, then they should work everywhere. Don't mind me. :) ), but not with the magic within the Old Kingdom.

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[info]limyaael
2004-10-31 08:02 am UTC (link)
I read Sabriel, and really admired the world and the magic. The characters didn't intrigue me enough to make me read the others in the series, though. Sabriel herself seemed a little flat, and her companions fell pretty easily into stock territory.

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[info]bork
2004-10-31 01:11 am UTC (link)
Hi.

I love your rants, and have found them useful as I plow through in writing Fantasy. I'm friending you. You can friend me back or not; I don't care either way. I just love your rants, and want to read more of them!

Thanks,
C-ko

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[info]limyaael
2004-10-31 08:03 am UTC (link)
Hello. *Friends back*

There shall be more rants, as long as the well of complaining about fantasy clichés doesn't run dry. And so far, it doesn't seem as if it's going to.

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(Anonymous)
2004-10-31 04:36 am UTC (link)
Hey I really love your journal. I've learned so many helpful hints and advice on writing that your lj has become a daily read for me. I was wondering if you could possibly do a rant on gender stereotypes? I'm interested in writing and I find it particularly difficult to write from the male point of view(as I am female). It'd be interesting to read your take on that.

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[info]limyaael
2004-10-31 08:11 am UTC (link)
I've done a rant on heroines, but not on male heroes. Thanks for the suggestion.

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[info]robling_t
2004-10-31 05:17 am UTC (link)
Neither is purple language like "eldritch depths of the stygian catafalque" going to make anyone cower.

Among my necromancers, it would draw the response of "Oh, shut up, Murray." But thanks for the plotbunny. ;)


RE #5 -- interestingly enough, my society where necromancers are a tolerated faction did come out very secularized as I wrote it. The general population swears by a heaven but not a hell, which seems to indicate at least a vague idea of having gotten consistent trip-reports from the dead, and they don't have an organized Church as such, just a scattering of folkways and superstitions -- as if they're confident enough in What Comes Next not to need the whole intercessionary structure. (In fact, the necromancers are the closest thing the society has to priests, in that part of their activities include speaking to the dead on behalf of the neighbors.) Resurrection is possible, if acted upon swiftly enough, and if not reanimation into zombies is also mentioned, although the necromancer narrating the piece complains repeatedly that zombies are just about useless, practically speaking. And then there's ghosts, who often seem to have been called away from something they'd much rather be doing than talking to necromancers...

Damn, I need an agent... {stares at mailbox}

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[info]thedeadqueen
2004-11-01 09:32 am UTC (link)
This reminds me why I love Paula Volsky's The Wolf of Winter so much. The author has clearly thought for more than two seconds about how necromancy actually works and what the limitations are. Necromancy is sort of an addiction that heightens your senses, as well as allowing you to speak with the dead, and if you overstretch yourself, you go mad and become a sub-human creature.

Plus, it contains the best anti-hero ever. ::Worships Varis::

Anybody here read it?

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[info]irian
2004-11-01 11:05 am UTC (link)
Paula Volsky is an author who should receive a lot more attention than she's getting. I love her Illusion, but then I'm a sucker for anything even remotely French revolution related or inspired.

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As I'm going through l.'s memory list - [info]white_serpent, 2005-05-06 04:53 am UTC

[info]irian
2004-11-01 11:10 am UTC (link)
Two words. Garth Nix. His take on necromancy is very much unique, and the limits of the craft are well-defined even if it's a YA book trilogy.

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[info]damien_winter
2004-11-06 07:10 pm UTC (link)
There's a really excellent example of some villain raising an unstoppable army of the undead and proceeding to almost win the battle in the Rangarok manga (by Myung-Jin Lee) in volumes 5-7. The dead just keep going and going and so on and so forth. Plus the necromancer is a demigod, or something.

It ends in something that's pretty much a deus ex, but it's worth a read. Don't bother buying it though.

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