Limyaael ([info]limyaael) wrote,
@ 2004-11-04 22:54:00
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Current mood: bitchy
Entry tags:fantasy rants: autumn 2004, pay attention to: class, rants on power dynamics, world-building: society

Rant on slavery
This is the rant on slavery.



1) What kind of slavery does your fantasy society have? Slavery might exist for many different reasons in a fantasy society. The usual kind is (apparently; see point 3) the kind that existed in the United States, Brazil, and the Caribbean Islands until the nineteenth century: chattel slavery, under which people were treated and regarded as property, and the condition of the parents could be passed onto the children without qualms, and slavery itself was sustained by certain mechanisms of coercion and thought that helped perpetuate slaveowning among the ruling class. However, that isn’t the only kind that has existed.

Other possible kinds of slavery in a fantasy society:

-Debt slavery. Does someone in the fantasy world borrow money and then fail to pay it back? Does he default on a different kind of debt that he owes social superiors, or a neighbor, or someone else? Then he may be seized and made to work it off, or perhaps his family could be sold into slavery to pay for it.
-Crime slavery. Slightly different from debt slavery, this would be more like forced prisoner labor—a much more common threat in fantasy than anything actually portrayed.
-‘Foreigner’ slavery. Perhaps, for whatever reason, the only way that people of another race, species, or nation can enter a particular part of your fantasy world is as slaves. Eventually, they may be able to buy themselves free and become respected members of society. This kind of slavery would not pass on from generation to generation.
-War slavery. Prisoners of war could be made into slaves, servants, adoptees, or sacrifices among nations such as the Aztec in North, Middle, and South America.

Frankly, most of those systems would add some variation to the usual fantasy idea of chattel slavery, which many fantasy authors not only choose to portray, but portray without much competence (point 3 again).

2) Decide if your society is a “society with slaves” or a “slave society.” This is a useful distinction that historians have come up with. A “society with slaves” is a society in which some people have slaves, but they’re not fundamental to the economy; they might exist side by side with indentured servants, free but poorly-paid workers, slightly more important artisans, and mechanized (or magic-ized) industry. A “slave society,” on the other hand, is one economically dependent on its slaves, probably because its staple crop, say, is not one that most free people would willingly tend and harvest, or because whatever must be done to earn money is difficult and dangerous. The profits tempt people to keep on doing it, but on the other hand, they want to live and spend their money, not die. So they’re more likely to take slaves and then to make them so important to the society that the temptation to stop slavery becomes slim to nonexistent before the threat of what would happen to their money. The harvesting of sugar cane in the Caribbean islands, at which the majority of slaves died, is a prime example of this.

This will make a difference to the way that you portray slavery in fantasy. I’ve read a lot of fantasies where slaves were common and not really questioned, but they also seemed incidental to the economy; in fact, sometimes I couldn’t really tell why they were there at all (see point 4). In others, slavery was seen as wrong and the heroes had to convince other people of that, but the owners seemed to just give in and agree with them without much thought of consequences, or to oppose them for silly reasons (point 4, damnit). Slavery should make just as much sense as anything in the fantasy society. When it is flung in, I think it’s to serve a different purpose: not to make sense, but to provide objects of pity or an easy moral issue to attack. Writing fantasy should be difficult, complex, complicated, nuanced, detailed, a struggle, a joyful battle. Make sure to explain and integrate slavery into the society.

3) What leads to the dominance of masters over slaves? In some fantasies, the author writes about slaves living in fields, barely getting any sleep or food, enduring difficult and dangerous tasks—working out in the hot sun seems to be a favorite—enduring beatings, and so on. And the big question in my mind is:

Why don’t these people just run away?

Seriously, in some fantasies there is not an answer. The slaves suffer horrible treatment, and they know it’s horrible, and they hate it. Yet they make no attempt to do anything but go along with the masters. That’s because they have to wait for the Wonderful Hero to come and rescue them, of course, but that’s not a good reason. Look into the minds of slaves and see what keeps them there.

In the case of chattel slavery as it was practiced in the Western hemisphere, there were many psychological and social and legal constraints as well as the ever-popular whip and club. The concept of race was used to keep lower-class whites feeling superior to blacks (and Indians) and divide them from uniting with them and rising against the higher class. (There is evidence that before upper-class whites hit on this tactic, white indentured servants and black slaves did unite, fight together, make love together, and make common cause in other ways). Draconian slave codes threatened such punishments that the anticipation of them, far more than the actual infliction of them, kept many slaves quiescent. It helped enormously that the slaves were usually visibly different, of course. The mixing of slaves from different backgrounds and languages isolated them and destroyed the sense of belonging that they would have had in their own homelands. And in places like Barbados, the work was exhausting and dangerous enough to not leave that much energy for rebellion. That’s only the barest part of the mechanisms of coercion, of course, but it’s enough to give you an idea.

This doesn’t mean slaves never struggled against the constraints. They did. They could pretend to be sick, to be hurt far more than they were by a whipping, to be so stupid that they couldn’t understand what was required of them. They could work so slowly that almost nothing got done. They could steal small things to inconvenience their masters and make their own lives better. They could at least attempt to conduct their own ceremonies, such as funerals and weddings, so as not to let their masters control every aspect of their lives. And they could and did run away, despite the risks and dangers of that. The temptation was stronger if there was a friendly place nearby; Spanish Florida was near British South Carolina, for example, and offered freedom for any slave that got that far. Not many of them made it, but that didn’t keep them from running.

So consider reasons that your slaves don’t run away, other than physical constraints alone. And consider ways that they could rebel, not only including but up to an actual revolution (see point 5).

4) Why do these people need slavery, anyway? Really, I don’t understand why some authors use it. All right, so the evil nobles have slaves. But why not servants? They might have to pay servants, but not that much, and servants often didn’t have much more choice than slaves in a pseudo-medieval society; they can’t leave easily, they’re dependent on their masters, they can’t show open temper or rebellion without being punished, etc. Slaves are dangerous in a way that servants can never be, because they can decide that they would much rather hate and hurt and kill their masters than go serve in another place. They can’t go serve in another place. They’re backed against a wall. Back them far enough, and they’ll lash back.

Additionally, under chattel slavery, slaves make their masters incredibly paranoid. The fear of slave conspiracies was constant, from Barbados to Jamaica, from South Carolina to New York. Slaves were rewarded with their freedom if they brought the rumors of a conspiracy to their masters’ ears. When masters became convinced that their slaves were plotting against them, they didn’t hesitate to use torture, execution, and punishment they wouldn’t ordinarily have, for fear of damaging valuable property. Fear is a constant companion in a society with chattel slavery, on both sides.

So really sit down and think about why you have slavery at all. You may have a society with slaves rather than a slave society, and you may have a system other than chattel slavery, but it still needs to be thought about.

5) Portray all the difficulties in a slave rebellion. This is another consequence of fantasy authors wanting things to be easy for their heroes, I suspect. The hero talks to a few slaves, gets them outraged, talks to a few others, and suddenly the world is different and the hero is accepting congratulations from everyone (or being crowned, maybe).

In our history, there was only one successful rebellion purely among slaves: the Haitian Revolution. And that took 13 years (1791-1804), and involved double-crosses, steps backward and forward—France did abolish slavery for a time, and then Napoleon reinstated it—and the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people. It also went mostly unacknowledged by the United States and Europe, though it did inspire revolutionaries in other countries, like Simon Bolivar.

If you have a well-worked out system of slavery and a society to hold it up, then you have set yourself an enormous challenge to portray a realistic change in slavery. I think this could make an enormous story, at least as sprawling as the average fantasy fight against the Dark Lord, and a lot of heroes, villains, and characters who transition between both. It’s really in your best interests not to just wave a magic wand, literal or figurative, and clean the mess up.

6) Don’t portray slaves as happy to serve their masters. This is a variation of what I talked about in the servant rant, but it applies with peculiar force here, because authors seem to have a tendency to depict slaves as wise, patient, and happy to serve the whims of their masters, because they love them. Or something to that effect.

Tell me: if these people are willing, why are they slaves? Why aren’t they free servants? (Point 4 again). Why would a society really need a system of slavery if there was a whole group of people willing and eager to serve the dominant group, or if being of a lower class somehow magically transformed everyone into that stereotype?

Slavery takes away freedom. It might be in accordance with laws, like debt slavery; it might be something that the people in the slave position accept with stoicism rather than rebel openly against, such as if they’re prisoners of war and expected to be taken slaves if they lost. But they still didn’t make the choice to perform domestic work, scrub their master’s floors, tend his fields, or whatever else you have them doing. They didn’t make the choice to have all the constraints heaped on them that they do, and I haven’t encountered a fantasy author yet who could convince me that to a slave, that was somehow just an acceptable price next to the joys of serving the master.

That doesn’t mean relationships between masters and slaves are completely simple. There’s point 3, about the many small ways that slaves could rebel. There’s also the choice made by authors like Carol Berg, who portrays a system of chattel slavery based on racial and magical difference in the Rai-kirah saga, and yet avoids having the slave narrator, Seyonne, be either a helpless victim or a cheerful and grinning stereotype. He reluctantly takes up the task of protecting his master, Aleksander, against demons because that was what he was sworn to do before he became a slave, and he still considers it his sacred obligation. That being enslaved took away the magic he would ordinarily have used to perform the task is a further, cruel irony. Berg never forgets the cruelty, and slavery is not happy in these books.

There are very few things in fantasy that cannot be improved by being made complicated, and the relationship between master and slave is another of them.



Not sure what rant should be next, really.




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[info]troubadour118
2004-11-04 08:05 pm UTC (link)
Ha, I knew you were going to talk about Seyonne. ^_^ Point Number 6 is my favorite. "Oh, sure, the fact that my master is an occasionally nice guy negates the fact that I have, uh, NO FREEDOM." Ridiculous.

As for the next rant: what about author-specific ranting? I know you've done positive praisings of Carol Berg, Martin, and I think Guy Gavriel Kay, but I can't recall if you've done an entire entry devoted to the COMPLETE AND UTTER WRONGNESS that is Jordan or Goodkind. That way, instead of analyzing an individual aspect of fantasy, you can analyze how these faulty parts combine to make a really dreadful whole, or something of that nature. Just a suggestion. ^_^

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[info]nextian
2004-11-05 08:33 am UTC (link)
I'd love to hear a Jordan and Goodkind rant, I must agree. Oof. Arrrrg.

Another unrelated point: 6) bugs me hugely as well. I just read a book called "Souls in the Great Machine," all about a post-apocalyptic Australian society. A lot of it was interesting, a lot of the theories and world-facts were well thought out, plot-wise the book read like a NaNo novel--improvised. But boy, did it destroy the illusion when "units" in the "Calculor"--i.e. slaves forced to do simple mind-numbing calculations every day--decided that they loved their world and tasks so much they didn't leave when given freedom.

And this was supposed to be *inspiring!*

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[info]kadaria
2004-11-05 07:31 pm UTC (link)
>post-apocalyptic Australian society<

Like Mad Max? ;)

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[info]raincrystal
2004-11-05 10:52 am UTC (link)
I'd like to see the ultimate Limyaael list of which authors are good and which aren't. (For my own reading purposes as much as anything-- I like having an opinion that I can actually trust to recommend books I should read, and while Limyaael's taste in books is simply her own taste, I find it way more in accord with mine than my friends who suggest Mercedes Lackey.)

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[info]limyaael
2004-11-06 08:39 pm UTC (link)
Well, I've mentioned authors here and there I think are good or bad, but never done one whole collected list. A project for the near future, I suspect.

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[info]limyaael
2004-11-06 08:38 pm UTC (link)
Seyonne is the most consistently wonderful character as far as slavery goes that I've ever found. There are plenty of things that irritate me about him, but not the way Berg portrays his reaction to slavery.

And that rant is the one I'm working on right now.

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[info]enkelien
2006-09-27 02:57 am UTC (link)
I have to disagree with you there--to me she seemed remarkably inconsistent about keeping him "in character" as a slave. He reminds us that he's been a slave for sixteen years and any rebellion he might have had in him has been long since crushed out (which is realistic, and I appreciated) but then he turns around and is mouthy to Aleksander. He always remarks that he's being unusually glib, but then he does it again and again and it's hard to believe that being mouthy is "unusual" for him.

My impression was that being a slave, and thinking like a slave, was such an alien concept to Berg that she couldn't maintain it and keep him in character all the time.

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[info]almeda
2005-04-15 04:11 am UTC (link)
I admit (somewhat shamefacedly) that I actually *like* Jordan. Ok, the first three books of WoT. He has no excuse, and I refuse to defend him, for writing an extra eight middle books beyond what was necessary (and I'm sorry, the Seanchan deserved their own parallel DIFFERENT novel-series, like Moreta and Nerilka). If I could have had the willpower to stop after 3 and content myself that I'd never know how any of the stories ended, I could just enjoy the worldbuilding and the magic and whatnot. And I liked Egwene. At first ...

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[info]youraugustine
2004-11-04 08:14 pm UTC (link)
6 - and if you want to play REALLY twisted games, you can get into the things that slavery can do to some peoples' heads - to the point where they ARE happy to serve their masters . . .because they're so wholly BROKEN.

I do mass chattel slavery for my Last Alliance world. There's also mention of it at least in Winter Leaving, as that's alt 1700s earth. Should be fun. ^,..,^

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[info]world_wanderer
2004-11-04 08:55 pm UTC (link)
Hmmm, let's see here, Dragonaria has indentured service, generally selling yourself to pay your debts. There's worse, but the main political body believes it suitable for many crimes to brand the criminal as outcast. He doesn't exist in society anymore, and there's generally someone somewhere sadistic enough to take advantage of that to satisfy dark apetites.

In the beginning stories, the slave Races are taken becuase of physical advantages they have over the Slavers(anaerobic respiration for underground work, simple strenth combined with enough brain power to do complex tasks). Psychology is used most often, conditioning the minds to be subservient. Hundreds of years later when the slavery has essentially ceased to exist, they still think, and are thought to be, inferior. Technological development was a key point, it being considered cheaper to breed and use slaves than to develop robots.

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A reason why the slaves might be happy
[info]dsgood
2004-11-04 09:06 pm UTC (link)
Perhaps the slaves are really in charge. They might be like Sacher-Masoch as in 'masochism"), who I've read forced women to dominate him.

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Re: A reason why the slaves might be happy
[info]maureenlycaon
2004-11-04 10:15 pm UTC (link)
Hate to be contrary here, but in real life 24/7 sexual slavery doesn't work out for most submissives and masochists. (There are plenty who think it will, until they actually get a chance to try it . . .)

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Re: A reason why the slaves might be happy
[info]jetamors
2004-11-04 10:21 pm UTC (link)
It doesn't count as slavery if you do it by choice.

A society in which the people who appeared to be slaves were actually in charge would be pretty cool, though.

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Re: A reason why the slaves might be happy
[info]limyaael
2004-11-06 08:39 pm UTC (link)
Why would the slaves need to pretend that they're really slaves, though? There would have to be some compelling reason. It's the same reason I don't usually find societies where women, or hidden mages, or what-have-you, are the hidden power brokers convincing; most of the time it doesn't seem as though they have strong enough opposition to force them to conduct this elaborate charade.

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Things I've encountered while writing about slaves
[info]kadaria
2004-11-04 09:24 pm UTC (link)
> Don’t portray slaves as happy to serve their masters<
Well, it can swing either way but it all really depends on the placement of the character.
Take a look at Wilbur Smith's River God (more of a historical fiction though the 3rd book in the series, Warlock tips to fantasy). In Egyptian society, house and personal slaves lived the cushy life and were often loath to leave it, even if a master offered freedom.
Which is another point of interest. Slaves that work in different areas have differnt personalities, especially if the particular society breeds its own slaves. For example, a slave that does heavy labor in the broiling sun will not have to be as smart as a slave that works in the house or helps manage accounts (In Roman society, the house slaves were often used to teach Greek to the family's children). They will have to be big and strong and just smart enough to get the job done (but not smart enough to rebel as you pointed out). So your field slave is most likely not going to have long complex thoughts while your house slave will likely have a lot on her mind. Of course there will always be exceptions (an unpedigreed slave, a misplaced slave, etc) it's just a generalization.
Aside from laborers and house slaves there are also other types such as gladiators, overseers (slaves who were given special privialges and given control of other slaves) and concubines.
Oh, and just because a person is a freed slave (freedman) does not mean that they are immediatly sympathetic to all slaves and want to set them free. For example Falccus, the father of the Roman poet Horace was once a slave who was freed by his master. As a freedman, he worked as a slave auctioneer.

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[info]gehayi
2004-11-04 09:34 pm UTC (link)
Please do a rant about Jordan or Goodkind. God, do I have issues with these writers. The Wheel of Time series has four transitional books (two of them in a row), the most recent book, Crossroads of Twilight, is so filled with name-dropping that it's unreadable unless you are looking at Encyclopedia WoT and can check who the various characters are, and all of the characters have similiar names. For example, there are Moira Elward, Moiraine, Mora, Mordeth, Mordrellen, Morelin, Moressin, Morgase, Moria Karentanis, Moridin, Morsa and Morvrin. There are also Malind, Malind Nachenin, Malindare and Malindhe; Maigan, Maigan Nem and Maighdin; Mili Skane, Milla al'Azar, Milli Ayellin, Millin and Millis Fendry. And that's just a few examples.

Goodkind deserves to be ranted about simply because of Richard Rahl, quintessential Stu.

Let's examine the evidence:

* In the beginning of the first book, kills a quartet of uber-super-assassins single-handedly.

* He is the adopted son of a humble woods guide...

* ...while actually being the grandson of the First Wizard of the Old World and the bastard son by rape of the most evil wizard EVER.

* He is the first war wizard (a wizard possessing both Additive and Subtractive magic) in thousands of years.

* He is the only man ever who can touch Kahlan, the Mother Confessor, in a sexual way and not have his mind and will blasted from him.

* He is the Seeker of Truth and the Wielder of the Sword of Truth.

* He also ends up becoming the Emperor of D'Hara.

* He can do absolutely anything--woodcraft, magic, politics, art, medicine, diplomacy--despite having no training in anything but woodcraft.

* Has a multitude of dangerous siblings, many of whom are evil.

* Has escaped from a building enclosed in a space-time envelope that slowed the flow of time within that building, despite the fact that there was no way for him to do so. Goodkind mentions the impossibility of escape a number of times.

* Befriends a dragon. And rides her. This is also supposed to be impossible.

* Goes to the world of the dead (read: Temple of the Winds) to stop a plague. And returns to the world of the living.

* Every significant female character (with the exception of his half-sister) in the series is attracted to him. Three of these characters marry him, sequentially.

* He is said to be very handsome and rugged in appearance.

* His child has been prophesied to be a war wizard AND a Confessor AND a boy, which means, in terms of the series, that his child would be omnipotent, world-dominating and evil. Cue the angst.

* He has scored a number of victories over the Keeper of the Underworld (read: Devil).

* He has carved a statue of such astounding beauty that it inspired welfare-state empire subjects to bring hope, creativity and capitalism into their lives. The statue also caused a revolution when Richard destroyed it.

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[info]melarin
2004-11-04 11:28 pm UTC (link)
Let's all go read that book, then! [sarcasm]

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[info]rawles
2004-11-05 01:03 am UTC (link)
I've had the first book of the Sword of Truth sitting on my shelf for many months. I could never quite muster up the will to read it. I couldn't figure out why. Now I know. I've spent so much time on the internet reading Sues and Stus and horrid fiction I've developed a sixth sense that detected the suck emanating from it and subconsciously refused to allow me to do that to myself.

Now, I know that I never, ever will.

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[info]rubynye
2004-11-06 10:28 am UTC (link)
*writhes in pain just from the description*

Thank you for saving me from the Evil that is this series!

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[info]limyaael
2004-11-06 09:10 pm UTC (link)
*grin* The rant's up now.

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[info]maureenlycaon
2004-11-04 10:12 pm UTC (link)
*takes careful notes, with plans to use this on slavery in Raven's and Palin's world later*

Thank you for this one -- I can see I've got work to do.

How about that rant about demons?

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[info]limyaael
2004-11-06 09:10 pm UTC (link)
You're welcome.

Demons will probably be next.

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[info]tiferet
2004-11-05 12:26 am UTC (link)
The problem is, in Rome and the American South, some slaves did like their masters well enough, even when they didn't particularly like slavery..

The biggest problem I have with slavery in fantasy and SF is that it's so very often used as a pretext for the writing of bad porn or to create sexual-abuse angst.

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[info]kadaria
2004-11-05 06:02 am UTC (link)
For one of my Latin exams, I had to translate an epitaph (part was written in first person the other was second) of a young man who as a boy was bought by a wealthy family. When he was about 14 they officially adopted him into their family as their son. Before that he worked for them in the man's shop and was trusted with money and accounts. The second part was written by his masters/parents praising him as a dear and kind son (filius carus).

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[info]limyaael
2004-11-06 09:11 pm UTC (link)
Would they like masters whipping and cursing and beating them, though? Would they really give up a chance at freedom to stay with someone who did that? It might be all right to portray a slave-master "friendship" where there was no chance at freedom and the slave knew there wouldn't be a chance at equality, either, but for a slave to stay with someone cruel when they can run is going to take a lot of convincing writing.

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[info]tiferet
2004-11-06 10:44 pm UTC (link)
Of course not! But one of the problems I have with fantasy writers who write about slavery is that in slave societies, the vast majority of masters are not sadistic, because they're ordinary people. They may not see slaves as equals, but most people don't see animals as equals, either, and we still condemn cruelty to animals.

Don't get me wrong; I agree with 99.9% of the literate world that slavery is a Bad Thing. It's just that being in a slave society doesn't automatically make people evil, y'know?

There'll be cruel masters who whip, curse and beat their slaves. There'll also be kind ones and indifferent ones.

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[info]rawles
2004-11-05 01:00 am UTC (link)
I enjoyed this.

I have one nation in my NaNoWriMo novel that has a system of indentured servitude and war slavery and the other has criminal slavery, for people who commit one of three big crimes (rape, murder, or treason).

Though, there's no revolution planned in any of the stuff I've written so far.

In the country where they have criminal slavery they have a magical sort of mental fix that they do, which is really rather cruel, that more or less leaves the slaves unable to rebel.

The war slavery country is actually running out of slaves since the war was quite some time ago and they spent the entire time beating the enemy back out of their lands. Which means that the vast majority of the slaves they took were soldiers instead of common people. And women don't serve in the army in the other country. So they pretty much got lots of soldiers (conscripted, naturally) who were all men. Supplemented by maybe a small amount of women from the tiny bit of countryside they managed to push forward into briefly and whores who were straggling along behind the army. Exponentially more men than women, a good amount of escapes (because their own country is next door and they don't look physically very different from the natives), combined with the passage of time, and you eventually run out.

The indentured servitude is na entirely seperate affair from the slavery. They aren't the property of the person they owe money, they can't be beaten and such, and their families only come into it if they bring them into to it. Though, a common tack for people with children who fall into debt (and sometimes ones who aren't in debt at all) is to sell a young daughter or son to a brothel. Because prostitution is both sanctioned and not looked down upon in their country, the parents get the money to pay off their debts, they don't have to worry about providing for that/those child(ren) anymore, and once the child works off their original price they get paid decent money. And if they manage to make to the highest levels of concubines/escorts they can actually get an in into a very high-class lifestyle, not to mention make a good amount of money to tuck away for when they're older.

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[info]sythyry
2004-11-05 07:10 am UTC (link)
World Tree prime society has debt slavery and crime slavery, and term bondage (selling yourself into slavery for twelve years). It's a society with slaves -- and not with very many of them. There's a continuum of lower-class people, from the free poor (say, 95% of the lower class) to slaves (half of the remainder) to people forced into the most despised jobs and positions (prostitutes and cley-sellers).

Slaves are treated pretty much like servants, except with a different pay scale and less worry about them quitting. They are rare enough so there's not much of a social model for dealing with them separately. Physical violence to slaves, beyond the occasional boxing of their ears, would be seen as inappropriately harsh.

(Exception: people enslaved for violent crimes get something more like hard labor.) No rebellions 'cause (1) not enough slaves, and (2) slavery is tolerable.

So why'd we have it there? I think maybe (1) 'cause we could have written this rant ourselves, and (2) we want to emphasize that World Tree values are different from, and often crueler than, 21st century Earth ones. Well, 21st century Earth in certain states of the USA at least. *sigh*

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[info]lnhammer
2004-11-05 08:48 am UTC (link)
Also, please everyone, disinguish between not just the several types of slavery, but also sefdom/villeinage and indentured servitude. And, especially, the social differences between the latter two and wage servitude.

---L.

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[info]goldjadeocean
2004-11-05 10:06 am UTC (link)
ditto on the request for Jordan/Goodkind. *grins* That, I wouldn't mind seeing.

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[info]tacoyaki
2004-11-05 12:16 pm UTC (link)
Another vote for that! I would love to see someone pick these guys apart :3

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[info]avrelia
2004-11-05 03:00 pm UTC (link)
5) Portray all the difficulties in a slave rebellion.

Another difficulty that a slave rebellion is not necessarily should lead to a newer, happier life for everyone. A successful rebellion may free the slaves, but not by changing the society, but by turning the tables (former slaves becomes new masters.) I am thinking now about Ancient Egypt slaves’ rebellion I read of. And even when slaves are not happy to be slaves, they approve that social order, or just never thought that there can be another – so they would prefer to have slaves of their own, not to be slaves, but slavery itself doesn’t seem wrong.


Another thing is the dependant peasants in the feudal system walk the fine line between being slaves and free people. And - depending on the country and time they can have more or less freedom and rights.

Re: next rant. What about Arthurian stereotypes? I’d love to read about them.

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[info]tainted4life
2004-11-05 09:55 pm UTC (link)
With fantasy, slavery could potentially be a lot easier to control. Ie., the slaves don't run away because their minds have been magically altered so that "I want to run away" will never come up as a thought.

But that'd kind of be a lot of effort. A magic-user have to get each slave, or each place with slaves, or make all slaves wear a special collar or something... And in a slave-dependent society, that could be hard.

...On the other hand, I'm only saying that 'cause my NaNo novel this year deals with an empire that conquered the continent 'cause of mind-control, but was toppled due to the mages breeding immunity and then spreading it by swapping chromosomes around.

Bahahah. I LOVE dropping hints. "We've never even found a foot soldier in over a hundred years of searching, so How. Did. They. Conquer. The Continent?"

Re: next rant, please, PLEASE rip into Goodkind and Jordan.

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[info]melarin
2004-11-06 01:58 pm UTC (link)
I've put a link to your rants in the profile of my LJ community, is that okay, or do you want be to take it down?
It's [info]thots_book if you want to have a look see first.

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[info]limyaael
2004-11-06 09:12 pm UTC (link)
That's fine; I'm flattered. You may link wherever you like.

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[info]castiron
2004-11-08 10:59 am UTC (link)
A sub-point of 1: How do people get out of slavery in your society? Is a slave enslaved for life (and are their children in the same state)? Or are they freed after a certain term? Can a slave earn money, save up, and buy their freedom? Are slaves traditionally freed at the death of the master (assuming the master wasn't murdered by a slave)? Is it customary to free a slave as part of a major festival, such as a child's wedding? and if so, is the slave chosen by lot, by length of service, by age, by whim, or what? Can the master free a slave as a reward for good work? Does the society have a Jubilee-type festival, where every N years all debts are forgiven and all slaves are freed?

I'd expect slaves in general to behave differently if they know they're slaves forever than if they know they can be freed for good service.

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(Reply from suspended user)

[info]9bloodychalices
2006-01-22 12:11 pm UTC (link)
Yes. I generally have societies with slaves, and they're generally a combination of crime and debt slaves - although, usually the justice system is different, so different things are considered "crimes".

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[info]little_e_
2006-03-28 11:47 pm UTC (link)
I find the question of why a society should have slaves a bit odd, mostly because I would ask the opposite question--why shouldn't it? The abolition of slavery is a very recent thing, even in the 'enlightened' parts of the world, and it still continues in many places. It seems to me that in almost any pre-modern society there would be slaves of some sort. Maybe not a lot of them, but they would still be there. Like the dirt and the zits and the germs. Unless the society has gone through some sort of revolution in which western norms and values such as 'individual rights' were imposed, I don't see any a priori reason a society shouldn't have slaves.

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[info]nick012000
2006-08-05 09:12 am UTC (link)
Hey, you can't forget Gor when you're talking about slaves in fantasy. :P

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[info]diannaskye
2006-12-11 04:21 am UTC (link)
This is one thing that makes me cry.
I've been roleplaying and GMing slave RPs for a year and a half now, and I know for a fact that there is no such thing as a society where no slave ever runs away, or conspires, or or or.
Really, some take it stoically, some believe that it's All Their Fault for being whatever whatever, some pretend to like it or at least not hate it and then vanish...

Reactions to slavery are as varied as slaves themselves-different people react different ways.

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[info]cat_i_th_adage
2007-04-11 11:55 pm UTC (link)
There's also temporary slavery, like for a span of seven years or something.

Near the beginning of Robinson Crusoe the protagonist escapes from, I think, Turkish slavery with a kid, is rescued by a (Christian) ship captain, and then sells the kid for the promise of a ride home. He made the captain promise to free the boy after seven years, which he agreed to, if the boy would convert to Christianity.

If I've got some of the details wrong, forgive me - I found the book rather repellent and haven't read it for many years.

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