Limyaael ([info]limyaael) wrote,
@ 2004-11-10 19:25:00
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Current mood: amused
Entry tags:fantasy rants: autumn 2004, rants on nonhumans

Demon rant
This is the demon rant, asked for by [info]maureenlycaon and several other people.



It takes a lot to get me to accept a fantasy story with a demon in it. Carol Berg managed, but then, she transformed the concept of ‘demon’ so thoroughly that she managed a break with tradition; I was interested in reading about her characters in spite of the name, not because of it, and remained interested. Other demon fantasies, especially that godawful…thing…by Elizabeth Haydon, haven’t managed to impress me much.

1) Does the demon have characteristics of Christian demons? Why? A lot of fantasy worlds are based on Christian mythology. However, even more aren’t. There may be a concept of hell, but why there should be demons who can possess people, live in hell and torture the dead, and are frightened by holy symbols is not explained. They’re snatched willy-nilly from one religious tradition and deposited in the middle of another, less accepting one. The author often doesn’t provide an origin story for the demons, either, the way that she might try to for her Dark Lord. They’re just There.

Give them the right to the name, for gods’ sake, or don’t name them “demons.” That word calls up a very, very specific picture, far more specific than something like, say, “evil spirit.” It limits you in ways that creating your own name for the species won’t. And it snaps the boundaries of suspension of disbelief too much when you’re trying to convince me that your fantasy world really is separate from ours, and yet, wow, here’s a traditional concept of demon. Go away and name them something else, or be prepared to transform your world to fit them. Carol Berg takes the latter course, but her demons aren’t Christian; they happen to live in another dimension that’s simply hell to human beings, and their possession of human souls is how they feed. Nor are they entirely evil. These are demons who paint. The name is chosen mostly for the possession aspect, and she doesn’t try to invoke the other stupid regalia that surrounds it.

Like, oh, demon-summoning, for instance.

2) Why should mages summon demons at all? Mages are usually represented as reaching between dimensions, into hell, or into another world to invoke a demon. It’s hard work, it’s dangerous (though see point 3), and demon-summoning always seems to lead the mage towards evil. Yet they keep doing it.

Why? Wouldn’t magical methods develop to control creatures in the mage’s own world, first? It would seem logical. The mage wants someone killed nastily, so he develops a method to summon and control a vampire. He wants someone terrified out of their wits, so he summons a ghost (and perhaps becomes a necromancer, which, while painted as evil still, isn’t usually represented as dark as demon-summoning is). He wants to know the secrets of the ages, so he summons and binds an elf. All of the functions demons serve could be served by creatures in the mage’s own world. The creatures probably wouldn’t be happy about it, but then, demons aren’t usually happy about it, either. It might take strong magic, but demonology is strong magic. And there’s the chance that the mage wouldn’t be irredeemably corrupted by it, except in the way that slavery of others irredeemably corrupts someone. And it’s not the slavery of the demons that’s the problem, for most mages, but the contact with hell/Demon Dimension/wherever.

If the demons are the only creatures that can be summoned and bound, that might be a legitimate reason for a mage to risk this hard and taxing course of study. However, it still puzzles me when I see a demonologist in fantasy trying to force a demon to do something that he could do in another way, and which sometimes exists openly in the novel. For example, if there is easily accessible elemental magic that would let the mage rain fireballs down on his enemies, why does he need to summon a demon to do so? Is elemental magic inborn, and it just happens that the mage’s talent is focused towards binding demons instead? Well, all right, but then why does there remain that inherent element of risk? A born demonologist should be able to control his creatures at least as well as a born elemental mage does his fireballs.

This boils down to a variation of number 1, but even if you have Christian mythology in there, ask yourself: Do I really need demon-summoning?

3) Please represent demonology as actually dangerous. I’ve read several fantasy books where the chalk circles to contain the demons had to be perfect, the right number of candles had to be lighted, the demons would try to trick and bargain with the mage for their freedom, and the mage himself could fall into the trap of his greed or desire or whatever. Demonology is supposedly an intricate, dangerous art in such books, and takes so much study that it appeals primarily to mages who never do anything else. Characters always face death when they face demons.

Yet, in only one of those books has a character actually died—and he was a minor character, an apprentice who summoned the demon and then couldn’t control it because he’d smudged the circle. So obviously he didn’t matter.

Demons have fangs, say the authors. I say, let them show their fangs. But the authors, who already have a bad case of worshipping and adoring their heroes, can’t permit anything bad to actually happen to them, even something bad that’s non-fatal (like the demon tearing an arm off). So they flutter and simper and hint, and the demons might as well be declawed kitty cats.

I’m sure you know by now that I think fantasy authors who have a case of Oh My Precious Baby syndrome for their protagonists need to go write something else. Fantasy has to have an element of danger and real risk to counteract the nearly universal, and universally correct, assumption that the heroes will win out in the end. I may be 99% certain that the hero’s going to live, and even live intact in all limbs and sanity and with the woman he loves beside him, but the author has to maintain that 1% that shows there’s still a chance. Since authors are going out of their way in demon-summoning scenes to present these creatures as ooh, scary, and the art as ooh, intricate, and the circles as ooh, there better not be a line out of place, I want to have the feeling that these demons could harm the heroes.

Demons who never get out of control, and have no chance of getting out of control, are like powerful magic that never gets out of control: they make the heroes look good with no effort on their own parts. Stop it.

4) Think about things from the demon’s POV. Reason number three, after the Christian thing and the non-threatening thing, that demons irritate me is the absolute evil thing. Authors who try to give their Dark Lords abusive childhoods and show how the evil henchman will be changed by the love of the pure heroine don’t think twice about making their demons sublime assholes.

And yeah, sure, that works in Christian mythology, but that’s because it’s Christian. The Devil is usually represented as purely evil, God as purely good. Take that support away, and you don’t have a reason to make immortal, knowledgeable, powerful creatures so purely evil. (I have problems with the Christian conception of demons, too, but that’s more tied in to my problem with absolute conceptualizations in general, which I’ll leave alone for now).

Think, think, think. Usually, demons’ characteristics in other fantasy races work to those races’ advantage, not detriment. Elves are long-lived or immortal, and so usually portrayed as more understanding of the earth, because they know what changes done in haste might reverberate with awful effects in a few centuries, and they’ll be there to suffer those effects. Dragons are wise, and a lot of fantasies nowadays take the tack that any heroine who listens to them is much better off than a heroine who tries to kill them. Authors don’t disdain to write about magically powerful humans or nonhumans; sometimes it seems as if no one is worthy of being a fantasy protagonist unless he or she has The Most Powerful Magic Ever. So why do these characters function to the dark side only in demons?

“They live in an evil place,” is the usual answer. And is a place purely evil? Can it be? Knock the Christian support away, and you’re left responsible for the justification of hell all by yourself, which can be a bit tough. Of course, most fantasy authors with this problem don’t think that far ahead. Demons are the convenient evil scapegoat, so in the scrap heap they go.

This is the case with Elizabeth Haydon’s demons, the F’dor, who can possess people and represent fire in the elemental scale of magic and want to awaken a monster who will destroy the world. Why do they want to do this? Because, um. Because, uh. Because, well, Elizabeth Haydon says so, and that fact combined with Rhapsody, an Author’s Darling to beat all Author’s Darlings, has made me vow never to read an Elizabeth Haydon book ever again.

Think like a demon. Jump into its skin. Even possessing people isn’t an unmitigated evil.

5) Possessing people can move a lot of plot. This is all over the place in Berg’s Rai-kirah books. A whole culture has formed to fight the demons who possess people and drive them to acts of evil (which is what feeds the demons: intense bodily sensations). Yet Seyonne, the main character, soon enough encounters a demon who’s possessing a merchant and simply letting him fulfill his lifelong dream of becoming a great painter, while feeding on the passions and emotions that that unleashes in his soul. And when Seyonne discovers the reason that the demons have to possess people in the first place… well.

If you are going to take the tack that demons are evil and possess people because of it, then use it to your advantage, not your disadvantage. I remember being awfully disappointed with the Changeling in Terry Brooks’ The Elfstones of Shannara, because (major spoiler) it basically just uses its gift, which is shapeshifting to the point of perfectly mimicking another person and then acting the way that a demon-possessed person usually acts, to cause minor trouble. An immortal creature could do something more interesting and grand, surely. If demons have been cooped up for generations, stewing about it, and then get let out, I want to see them possess kings and make them march their nations off to war. Not possess the King’s wolfhound, or change into it for that matter, and glare at people.

And what about good possession? Berg’s example is one where the demon, though he possesses the merchant for his own reasons, is benefiting and not harming him. Other demons with the ability to go into the mind, and who might be allowed to be good or evil by their authors, could have other purposes. Healing, perhaps? Working to awaken hidden memories or gentle evil dreams? Giving a wounded person strength to crawl the last few feet to reach help or shelter? It would involve an awful lot of trust, certainly, to give up control of one’s body or mind to a demon for a while, and the author probably wouldn’t call it a demon, but the possibility is there. Just reconceptualize possession in a new way.



I think the next rant will be advice on writing a fantasy short story as opposed to a novel.




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[info]inarticulate
2004-11-10 04:38 pm UTC (link)
I have a possible reason for the "demon" vs "evil spirit" thing.

Demon is one word. Evil spirit is two. Also, demon sounds better.

It explains so much. =D

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[info]raincrystal
2004-11-11 12:57 am UTC (link)
But this is November. Using two words is a good thing. XP

(...in more seriousness, you could just say "evil spirit" once and stick with "spirit" the rest of the time.)

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(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2004-11-13 03:53 pm UTC

[info]lainyle
2004-11-10 05:00 pm UTC (link)
Thank you for this rant. I had intended to better define my demons, yet since they are a minor detail to the plot have overlooked writing an explanation.

In my world demons are beings who in a past life became consumed with hatred and then died without releasing it. Their souls become corrupted beyond redemption; once reincarnated they are termed 'demons'. These reincarnate souls are still full of their past feelings so find themselves unable to let it go even if they have to create things to hate. This can get interesting. For example; a good person is consumed by hatred for a villain, dies without killing him, and in the next life finds himself with a constant desire to seek out someone and kill him. Once people figure out that demons are created through dying in a state of hatred they live their days trying to avoid such feelings, lest they die the next day. :) Now that I think about it I could expand on this much more in future novels... shame I'm already occupied with enough writing projects as it is. I'm almost afraid to bring up the demon issue in my books, anyway.

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[info]limyaael
2004-11-13 03:54 pm UTC (link)
Is vengeance all right, then, so long as they don't die full of hatred? That could have some (interestingly) dark implications.

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[info]erikomyoujin
2004-11-10 05:13 pm UTC (link)
I'd used the term 'demon' as a slang term for a certain race in my work, but now I see the should-be-blatant problems with that and realize that coming up with an original name would be much, much smarter. Ha.

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[info]limyaael
2004-11-13 04:01 pm UTC (link)
I think it really is better to do that, even with momentary confusion. Readers of fantasy are often used to unfamiliar names, and will get used to it with enough repetition.

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[info]dawnshadow
2004-11-10 05:16 pm UTC (link)
Um, hello. You post wonderful essays, Limyaael.

This rant reminded me of an anime series I'm currently watching that's based on a series of novels, Kyou Kara Maou. (Unfortunately, as the novels are in Japanese and I can't read Japanese, I've not read them. Hopefully, someone will liscense and translate the novels; they're fairly popular.)

Anyway, in Kyou Kara Maou the main characters are all demons. However, the Japanese concept of "demon" isn't the same as ours; their word that translates as demon doesn't have the "evil" connation that our word does. But the demons in Kyou Kara Maou are almost exactly the same as humans. They have a slightly different sort of magic and their own kingdom, but it's hard to see a physical difference between the two. I still don't know how the characters know the difference between human and demon on sight.

Anyway, the reason why the humans hate the demons is because, at some point in the past, they were enslaved by the demons. Those days are long past, but the old hatred remains on both sides, even though the hero (who was raised on Earth, very long and confusing story,) only wants peace.

And, yes, someone loses an arm.

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[info]limyaael
2004-11-13 04:03 pm UTC (link)
Thank you for the compliment!

There are legends in other cultures (or parts of other cultures, in this case) that can make interesting substitutions for the Western concept of 'demon.' The main problem is that so few Western fantasy authors incorporate them. They go straight for the usual medieval fantasy setting instead.

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[info]dsgood
2004-11-10 05:55 pm UTC (link)
Fantasy novel from the Demon's point of view: L. Sprague De Camp, The Fallible Fiend</>.

As for danger -- there's the short-short (by Fredric Brown, I think) in which a college student who has just summoned a demon to help him pass an exam starts to explain: -"You see, I've always been bad at geometry..."-

"I'll say you are," the demon answers as he steps out of the hexagon.

In the short story "Pact," Poul Anderson (writing as Winston P. Sanders) had a demon summoning a human.

I can't recall the name of the short story in which a human and a demon find out they're in the same profession, and happily discuss the insurance business. (After their problems are solved, of course.)

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[info]the_nic
2004-11-10 06:47 pm UTC (link)
That story was in a fantasy anthology that was my favorite when I was a youngin.

(youngin being a technical term)

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(no subject) - [info]the_nic, 2004-11-10 06:51 pm UTC

[info]maureenlycaon
2004-11-10 06:55 pm UTC (link)
Thank you so much for that rant. I found myself thinking of the demon in Mercedes Lackey's Oathbound. (What the heck was it doing in a pseudo-Wiccan world?)

But for once, instead of being slightly embarrassed as I realize I've made some of the mistakes, I feel positively smug. (I have a series of stories, the Dark Warrior stories, that use demons a lot.)

1) Does the demon have characteristics of Christian demons? Why?

Raven's world is loosely based on Christianity (with strong elements of Gnosticism, particularly Catharism) -- there are two sides, supposedly "good" and "evil", which each have their own supernatural minions. (Actually, mortals would be better off without both of them, but that's another story.)

2) Why should mages summon demons at all?

Raven the Dark Warrior summons demons because they're great "heavy guns" on the battlefield. His teacher, Zhevke, kept a demon in the shape of a horse in order to have a mount that was absolutely obedient, tireless, wasn't bothered by the desert heat and thirst, and wouldn't suddenly decide that a leaf blowing in the wind was a good reason to bolt.

3) Please represent demonology as actually dangerous.

*eyedart* Well, maybe I'm guilty here. But in Raven's world, the danger is really to your spirit, and since a Dark Mage is damned anyway . . .

However, for a demon to enter the material world costs a lot of magical power -- and that power comes from the Darkness Itself, which doesn't do loans or credit. The Darkness gets some power from being worshipped, but It mostly gets it from pain and suffering. So, in order to get power from the Darkness for anything, guess what you have to do?

Demonology in Raven's world may not be dangerous, except to your psychological health, but it's not easy or fun.

4) Think about things from the demon’s POV.

The Darkness in Raven's world is the very antithesis of the Light, and so "evil". It feeds off pain, suffering and agreement with its moral principles. How should its demons behave, other than "evil" -- delighting in pain, suffering and the defeat of the Light?

5) Possessing people can move a lot of plot.

The demons in this world don't possess people; that's just not how it works. Period. Sorry. :-) But it hadn't occurred to me that possession might make for some interesting stories . . .

A fascinating feature of the Voudun ("voodoo", to be vulgar) religion is that the loas actually possess their worshippers during religious ceremonies.

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Possession
[info]shadenv
2004-11-11 06:00 pm UTC (link)
You mentioned Oathbound. I think there are some scary similiarities between demonic possession and the possession of Need's bearer by that particular sword, yet Need isn't labeled a demonic blade, because Need takes over her bearer in order to protect her from magic or superior swordsmanship. And yet -- the means are the same -- the bearer's body and thought processes are being taken over.

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Re: Possession - [info]maureenlycaon, 2004-11-12 08:11 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2004-11-13 04:05 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]maureenlycaon, 2004-11-13 08:15 pm UTC
*sigh*
[info]ahsirakh
2004-11-10 07:05 pm UTC (link)
It is sometimes so infuriating that the Greek concept of attendant spirits was replaced by the Christian concept that all demons are evil without leaving a trace. Few people even realise the idea of the little angel and the demon resting on each shoulder doesn't stem from Christian tradition.

Daimons are dead.

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Re: *sigh*
[info]limyaael
2004-11-13 04:06 pm UTC (link)
I think they could be recovered in a fantasy novel, but few authors seem interested in doing so.

*sighs with you*

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[info]world_wanderer
2004-11-10 07:27 pm UTC (link)
My demons are more a subrace, really. Only some of them are bad, those are called demons. Reading this, I've come up with a few things for them.

Some books that came to mind:

Have you read the "Myth" series by Robert Asprin? There, a demon is simply a being from another dimension. They travel around, and do thier thing. In the first book, a mage summons a friend, who happens to be big, scaly, with lots of teeth, to impress an apprentice.

There's a book called Master of the Five Magics(I can't remember the author). Each of the five magics has its own strenths and weaknesses, summoning demons just happens to be one of them. He uses the abilities of various demons in combination with other magics to do stuff.

Eddings had his summoners be demon worshipers. They need demons to worship, right?

One big thing is that a magic-user can impress others by being able to summon and maintain a demon. Simply a demonstration of thier abilities, without much practical purpose.

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[info]limyaael
2004-11-13 04:07 pm UTC (link)
I haven't read the Myth series, no. If the demons can be summoned, though, I wonder why? Did the mages learn it for a certain reason?

I wonder if summoning demons to impress others would really be worth the magical cost, if the demons didn't do anything else.

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(no subject) - [info]world_wanderer, 2004-11-13 10:42 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]maximilia, 2005-10-30 08:42 am UTC

[info]shaycaron
2004-11-10 07:57 pm UTC (link)
I really don't tell you often enough how much I enjoy your rants (translation: I don't think I've ever told you how much I enjoy your rants). I always cheer when I see a new one on my friends list. Just about every one makes me think about the stories I'm writing, and some of them even give me new ideas.

I've got a comic idea I'm working on about demons trying to invade Earth from their dimension. Basically the Underworld is a really lousy place to live, and the demons want to come to Earth, which has, among other examples, much nicer weather and some really good food. Unfortunately it takes a lot of energy to move from the Underworld to Earth; I think the demons actually lack corporeal bodies as such, and they have to create them. But the easiest way to gather that energy is to steal a few human souls. So the demons who have already made it to Earth want to kill people, but not really out of malice, just to help their kinsmen.

I'm also involving the idea of possession, as a main cornerstone (is that the right word?) of the plot. The main character is possessed by the Underworld's military leader, whose body was destroyed in a fight with a demon hunter. Unluckily for the demon, though, he is so weak and the human's will is so strong, he's unable to keep control of the body -- and unless the human gets killed, he's unable to leave it. So the two are stuck with each other for the span of the comic.

I don't know if I'll do anything with summoning. Although... Say, maybe the first demon to come to Earth was summoned by a misguided mage who'd read one too many books about demonology, and he liked the place so much he decided to bring his friends and family over too. There, see? Another idea you've given me! ^_^

Ah, yes... I've been meaning to ask, would it be alright with you if I made a compilation page of your rants on my web site? I'd planned to sort them by date and subject and link each rant to its page on your LJ (because, really, the comments are half the fun). If you mind it, though, of course I'll drop the project.

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[info]limyaael
2004-11-13 04:13 pm UTC (link)
*grin* I'm really glad that I've given you so many ideas. Good luck with the comic. It sounds fascinating.

The compilation page is fine, and I'm flattered. Linking to me is also fine.

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[info]darthhellokitty
2004-11-10 08:10 pm UTC (link)
Not possess the King’s wolfhound, or change into it for that matter, and glare at people.

No, but a PUG, maybe...

But seriously - how I love an intelligent rant, which maureenlycaon sent me over here to see. If you do this sort of thing regularly, I may have to friend you. :-)

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[info]limyaael
2004-11-13 04:14 pm UTC (link)
I do it pretty regularly, every three or four days usually. Here are the other rants if you're interested. And thank you for the compliment!

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[info]sythyry
2004-11-10 08:13 pm UTC (link)
King Gorice XII, in The Worm Ouroboros, died when he tried to summon a demon. He's hardly a minor character in that book...

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[info]limyaael
2004-11-13 04:14 pm UTC (link)
*grimace* I never have read that book all the way through.

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(no subject) - [info]sythyry, 2004-11-13 04:57 pm UTC

[info]jetamors
2004-11-10 09:24 pm UTC (link)
I think, more than anything else, what annoys me about "Christian" demons, is that a lot of their trappings are actually fanon, not canon. For example, based on the Bible, demons don't live in hell. They live on earth. When Satan fell from heaven, he fell here. Paradise Lost is a wonderful piece of classical literature and all that, but it's not the source text.

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[info]limyaael
2004-11-13 04:15 pm UTC (link)
If the author is being more Renaissance/Restoration based, the Paradise Lost idea might make more sense. But I think demons are one of those things, like witches, that got tossed into the Big Fantasy Blender and mixed to a very bland consistency.

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[info]silverwerecat
2004-11-10 09:30 pm UTC (link)
Demonology is supposedly an intricate, dangerous art in such books, and takes so much study that it appeals primarily to mages who never do anything else.

Especially if the summoner's sacrifice wets himself and the urine breaks the circle, as I once wrote...

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[info]criada
2004-11-10 10:50 pm UTC (link)
I'm going to have to disagree with you a little on this one, because it seems ilke you're looking at demons from a strictly Christian viewpoint. But I still agree with you on most of it, particularly possession. You forget to mention that demons aren't just a Christian concept. Like angels, they exist in cultures around the world. Hinduism comes to mind in particular, where they give the gods something to stab at. Around the world, demons do tend to be simply, "evil spirits" or perhaps more appropriately, "malevolent spirits." 'Demon' is simply the word we use for them in English.
As for why bother summoning demons, as my boyfriend says, "why not?" Sorcerers can often be proud and power hungry, not smart. Chalk circles and bright lights are good for impressing the ladies. :) Seriously, though, if you ever look at the Lesser Key of Solomon you'll see it's like a directory of demons. Each has their own talents and abilities. If you need something specific (and they get real specific) you just look it up and call them up. If you were to summon an elf, as you suggest, you might not know what you're getting.
I also tend to look at demons from a psychological point of view, and use them to create appropriate symbolism.
And yes, the daimones are dead. :( Except for in the Catholic Church, where they became guardian angels.

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[info]limyaael
2004-11-13 04:21 pm UTC (link)
Yes, I am looking at demons from a strictly Christian viewpoint, because a good many of the authors in fantasy never look at them from anything else. When the authors start importing different conceptions, then I can be glad about them, or rant about them. Until then, I can only deal with the clichés that pop up most often.

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[info]lemurkat
2004-11-10 11:15 pm UTC (link)
One of the most interesting books for young adults that I've read is Jonathan Stroud's Bartimaeus trilogy. It has magicians - pompous and mostly useless people who happen to have the ability (or more probably just the learning) to summon and control (sometimes) demons. These demons do all the dirty work for them, including their magic spells, and range from silly little imp things to extremely powerful creatures. The "Bartimaeus" of the title is indeed a djin, an ancient being with a quick-wit and a dry sense of humour. He is summoned by a boy magician to do a task (using some fairly nifty tricks to make sure the djin obeys). These books are great because whilst Nathaniel (the boy) is a bit of a prat, Bartimaeus is indeed most excellent. And demons are not made particularly evil at all, although some are known to be vicious and murderous b@stards, others just want to be left alone. And of course they will all get their master if the ability arises. In terms of "demons in a different light", I strongly recommend these books.

My reviews: http://thebibliofiles.xi.co.nz/reviews/233584.html

LemurKat

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[info]limyaael
2004-11-13 04:22 pm UTC (link)
I've heard of them, though I've been somewhat wary of them, because I keep hearing they're written in a stream-of-consciousness/very "high art" style. I would prefer to avoid books where the author thinks he's too good for the genre. If they aren't like that, though...

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(no subject) - [info]lemurkat, 2004-11-13 07:01 pm UTC

[info]kiena_tesedale
2004-11-11 12:07 am UTC (link)
Hmm. This came at a good time, since one of my most recent projects involves a demon as the main character. I used demon as a more general term, though, not in the Christen sense, so it doesn't exactly mesh with what you ranted about. I could always change what she's called, but demon has a lot of the connotations I like that I would lose if I used a different name. It's sort of like witch vs. shaman vs. mage - they each have an entirely different mental picture, and demon has a picture a lot closer to what I'm going for. A completely made up word wouldn't have any sort of connotation, but I'm not certain I like that. Hmmm... Well, at least you got me thinking about it. :P

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[info]raincrystal
2004-11-11 01:13 am UTC (link)
I think I have to agree here with the people who point out that other cultures have things that are more like "demons" than something else, but aren't exactly Christian demons either. Granted, you could use the word in that language for the concept, but then you have to explain it and it never quite has the same resonant connotation in people's minds because it's a new word for them. It wouldn't tap into the many layers of cultural references we have in our minds, and wouldn't be quite as scary, I'd think. (Of course, the trade-off would be that some people may have particularly strong associations and references from some other work that has demons and will want to think of the demons in your story in that light.)

IMHO, something not fitting the Christian idea of "demons" may still have a right to the name. Since the beings are imaginary (or at least not verifiable as real,) and we can't go check what their characteristics actually are, one can say a "demon" is anything they want it to be, so long as they're prepared for the preconceptual baggage the readers are going to have about that word.

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[info]limyaael
2004-11-13 04:23 pm UTC (link)
Yes, other cultures have different ideas, but most of the time fantasy authors aren't using those; they're just picking up "ordinary" demons and plopping them into the story. If they were actually thinking more often, I wouldn't have nearly as many things to rant about. *grin*

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[info]minervasolo
2004-11-11 01:51 am UTC (link)
I think the problem with 'demon' is it's becoming more and more loosely defined. After Buffy started introducing 'good' demons it hasbasically starting sliding into meaning 'anything with scales and horns without a better name'. I think it helps if authors define what they mean by demons - is it a race, a species, a genus, a moral judgement or what? I use demons in my novel, but I decided that 'demon' was a human applied name, and they were in fact the same species as the gods. Immortals that want to wipe out Mortals = demons, Immortals that want to save Mortals = Gods, Immortals that don't give a damn = forgotten by Mortals. All in fact one species, with the simplistic designations applied by those who had no better way of understanding what was going on.

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[info]ahsirakh
2004-11-11 04:17 am UTC (link)
After Buffy started introducing 'good' demons it hasbasically starting sliding into meaning 'anything with scales and horns without a better name'.

Erm... actually, before Christianity got popular, demons were essentially both good and bad.

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(no subject) - [info]minervasolo, 2004-11-11 04:24 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]ahsirakh, 2004-11-11 04:27 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]minervasolo, 2004-11-11 04:48 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]minervasolo, 2004-11-11 04:48 am UTC

[info]kadaria
2004-11-11 06:28 am UTC (link)
One thing I do like about the anime invasion, is that it is providing people with eastern traditions to base stories and art off of. Hopefully, demons are also benefiting from this with the most recent wave of manga and animes featuring eastern demons as creatures that operate independently of a heaven/hell.
There also seemes to be more variety in the eastern demons (demons in fantasy novels I have recently read were normally presented as possessed humans or as little imps).
And I need to go eat...I may return to this later.

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[info]tasllyn
2004-11-22 07:24 pm UTC (link)
yep, gotta love new ideas! although, it does seem like there are several animes out now that are christianity based instead... still good, and it seems to ad a bit of extra drama, but...

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[info]otakukeith
2004-11-11 01:11 pm UTC (link)
The manga-style story/RPG prologue that I'm working out in my head at the moment has demons, who are the embodiment of chaos/disorder/entropy/whatever and angels, who are the embodiment of order/law/whatever. Both can be nice or nasty in equal measure. Not very original (it was variously inspired by the Amber books and the manga series Angel Sanctuary), but I was quite pleased with a change from the usual good angels/evil demons system.

Another rant idea, inspired by re-reading one of your old rants: Helpful Strangers. Those inexplicably nice people who help out fantasy teenagers on the run. You know, the kind Anne McCaffrey uses in pretty much every single book she writes?

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[info]ex_sailastar670
2004-11-11 02:04 pm UTC (link)
I found your journal today and have really enjoyed reading your posts. I hope you don't mind, but I'm going to friend you. :o)

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[info]limyaael
2004-11-13 04:23 pm UTC (link)
I don't mind at all. Thank you for telling me, though. ;)

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Struck by a thought
[info]shadenv
2004-11-11 06:08 pm UTC (link)
I liked the fact that you've brought up temperary possession by demons for the protagonist's own sake. However, I'm quickly thinking of a scene that involves something like a demon trying to defend it's action through invoking the over-protective mothering instinct. After all, we resent not only being controlled by something outside of ourselves, but being told it was "for their own good."

Oh gosh, I'd love to write dialogue for that scene.

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Re: Struck by a thought
[info]limyaael
2004-11-13 04:24 pm UTC (link)
That's a very interesting idea. It's possible that the hero would have to give permission for the demon to possess him for a good purpose, though, or it would still be "evil." That means that he wouldn't have as much to resent, or at least, it wouldn't be a rational resentment.

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Re: Struck by a thought - [info]deathglare, 2004-11-15 02:09 pm UTC
Yes, yes, those horrid christian stereotypes...
(Anonymous)
2004-12-19 04:37 pm UTC (link)
....Oh, yes, this is going to form into QUITE a rant.
-_-

Well, let us start.

Firstly, I agree with #4, in that demons aren't all evil. Why, you jest, with your little christian idealisms? ...Because, my dear little worm, they are PEOPLE. They have FLAWS and GOOD POINTS such as you and me. Though most--always with exceptions--abhor mortals, it's funny how they can be(in my eyes) as human-like as the ones they so hate. Like.. lets take a character from a current role play of mine...

Satan, for example.
Well, the poor guy was cast from heaven, and his wings turned to that of leathery likeness, much like a bat's, and meets Atari, a fellow fallen. Back in those days, he was filled with scorn and hatred for Jahouvah--the one who cast him from heaven('God'). So, he hears about Adam and Eve, and also of the Forbidden Tree. In his eyes, "Ooh! Revenge-time!" (To this Atari warns him not to do, and sneers from the shadows as he sets up his fate) As we all know, he tricks Eve, Jahouvah gets pissed and casts him into the pits of hell. Whee! banishment time!

Well, the guy gets soft over time(a few millenniums will do that to a person). By the time we come to him next, he's a sweetheart with a son. Then, Gabriel has to come along and murder him.

Boo Hoo. We all cry now.

Anyways, the point is that demons CAN be softies. Angels CAN be mean and hateful. When writing, PLEASE do not stick to the idealisms and narrow-minded view that most people(around me at least) have. PLEASE.

We all have faults that we accept and do not accept, plain and clear.

By the way... I'll be searching for a rant on 'Godmoding' and 'Powerplaying' as we call it, in the vast world of the RolePlaying community.

((Err.. if you were wondering... No, I'm not christian. In the least. M'just an agnostic soul. Whee.))

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Bartimaeus
[info]amber_oak
2005-01-05 05:19 am UTC (link)
Um, hi.

Another series with demons that rocks is the Bartimaeus trilogy by Jonathan Stroud. After reading this, Stroud seems to do everything here right.

The Bartimaeus trilogy takes place in an alternate 21st-century London where Britain rules the world by magicians. The only magical power they have is to be able to control demons from the Other Place (as Bartimaeus calls it) to do their bidding. And that's the extent of their power, just that. (Point 2)


The demons aren't evil. They hate being summoned because our world damages their essence, and unless the magicains are weak or make a mistake in summoning, they are under complete control and can be destroyed if they disobey directly. Though they are some who enjoy killing humans.

The book is split into two voices:Bartimaeus, the demon told in first-person(Point 4) and the rather annoying Nathaniel, told in third person. Our demon protagonist is really why the books shine. The five-thousand-year-old djinn is lovable sarcastic, witty, and sometimes pulls out humorous bits of his history. His parts also have footnotes, Terry Pratchett style. *grin*

Finally did it.



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[info]kag_kins
2005-01-25 09:12 pm UTC (link)
Wonderful rant. It might be a good idea to add, however, that not all 'demons' follow the Christian concept. Japanese youkai, for example, are very different. Just check out the manga Inuyasha.

I have a story someplace that has a demon in that sense as the main character. She's a cat demon, which in that universe means she has cat ears, tail, retractable claws, agility, speed and strength. The last of which is a common trait to all demons. Most have claws as well, but not retractable.

Anyway,

Kag-kins

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