Limyaael ([info]limyaael) wrote,
@ 2004-11-13 19:43:00
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Current mood: cheerful
Entry tags:character type rants, fantasy rants: autumn 2004

Comic relief rant
Yes, so, I lied about what the next rant was going to be about. I wanted to do this one instead.



This rant is a little specialized. It isn’t about just parodic or satiric fantasy, which I already did a rant on, and it isn’t about pure irony, either, which may or may not be funny depending on its position in the story. It also presumes that you know what humor is, and are not going to write so many “witty” comebacks to the Dark Lord by a character who really should know better that the readers would be interested in a five-minute session with your skull and a sledgehammer. This is about writing humorous little asides and so on in a larger serious framework.

Got it? Good.

1) Don’t write a character to be only comic relief. I can usually spot type characters from a long way off—not only the designated comic relief, but the designated love interest, the designated ineffective rival, the designated gruff but kind mercenary, and so on. It’s annoying. I have the feeling that the author doesn’t care that much about creating unique people for her story, but would rather come up with types, because it’s easier.

Fantasy writing shouldn’t be any easier than any other kind of writing. If it is, you are doing something wrong.

Supposedly, the jester or fool archetype is permissible in a fantasy story because…well, for the same reason that all archetypes are, I suppose. But starting out with archetypes is not a good way to get deep characterization, and very few people have the skill to write in the kind of distant, fairy-tale manner that will make the readers care about the story in spite of shallow characterization. You may find that a character in your story echoes, say, the Fool in King Lear, but set out to create the Fool, and you run into the limits of genre and situation almost immediately.

So. Decide on not only that your character is funny, but what context that humor is in. Does it come most often at the expense of the character’s own situation? She might be adored and pitied in the same breath. Does it come at the expense of other people? She might be the kind of person that her fellow travelers laugh at as long as her wit’s not turned on them, but she’s not likely to be very popular. Does it come from taking serious matters and adding a punchline after them? Depending on the danger they’re in, her party members might laugh or treat her like a pariah, for making light of, say, a death or an enemy who will kill them if he catches them.

One thing that’s usually unrealistic about the designated comic relief, beyond her actions, is the response of other people to her. Everyone almost always laughs, unless they’re jealous, even if they have pressing reasons to disapprove of her brand of humor. Try to remember that no one can possibly be funny to all people at all times, the same way that no one can possibly be beautiful to everyone.

2) Give the other characters a chance to shine. Want to use humor in your fantasy but not trap one character into the comic relief role? Then spread the humor among several characters. There may be one with each brand of humor, which would only make sense; people are amused by different things and crack jokes in different ways in real life, after all.

This has several advantages, beyond realism and getting rid of the comic relief stereotype:

a) It lends an element of surprise. If not every line out of the character’s mouth is a joke, it can surprise the reader when he comes out with a funny (or, alternatively, spare them from groaning because the author thinks his hero is amusing, and he’s really, really not).
b) Characters can use their humor in different ways—not just to relieve tension or make people laugh, but to gain approval for a plan or distract attention from something objectionable that they’re doing.
c) It makes the characters seem more individualized than mere speech style. I’ve seen authors conspicuously alter the speech style to portray different people. It was…painful.
d) Fantasy has a problem of not only making secondary characters stand in the protagonist’s shadow, but be shadows themselves, and the “quirks” that authors assign them are more memorable for their oddness than any inherent interest. A sense of humor is one way of making that person seem real, and not just a shadow. I would be more interested in an assassin with a dry sense of humor than an assassin who woke screaming from nightmares about ice.

3) Know when it’s appropriate to diffuse tension. It’s not always appropriate. I cannot tell you how often the following has happened:

*Limyaael settles in with a good fantasy book*
*building tension*
Limyaael: Ah, this looks good! I wonder what’s going to happen next?
*author snaps tension with a really dumb joke*
Limyaael: AAARGH!
*book shuts*

Supposedly, you can’t let readers get too tense. But fantasy readers are a bit different than, say, someone reading a romance. Part of the attraction of fantasy is the danger, the big battles, the “Ohmygod, that was so cool” scenes. If the author is forever destroying suspense with a character, oh, using potty humor, then the fantasy quickly becomes a bland mishmash of scenes. When you get to the dramatic confrontation or night before a battle that might kill everyone, the last thing you need is the character joking about the local equivalent of Port-a-Potties.

I’ve heard this defended as the character just being himself. But you need to think about the larger pace of the narrative as well as that one character. Want a reader to cry over your touching farewell scene, and know that that character would make a fart joke? Then leave out the character. It can be painful, it can be hard, but otherwise you’re sacrificing most of the story just to that one person. No one in fantasy deserves that. No, not even your protagonist.

4) Show the costs of humor as well as the benefits. Maybe your protagonist really is the kind of person who would wisecrack to the Dark Lord’s face while in chains. Maybe it’s even witty. (I’ve read a few stories like that, though those are far smaller than the overall percentage where it’s actually occurred). But why does the Dark Lord just sit on his throne and gape? Why is everyone always so taken aback when the protagonist makes a witty remark?

The Dark Lord might have his soldiers beat someone who insults him to his face. Hey, he’s the Dark Lord. He has the power and the will to do so. Perhaps he has his soldiers kill the wisecracking character. Perhaps, if the smart-aleck is the hero and needs to live, he kills someone else for every “funny” thing that comes out of the hero’s mouth. That should cure the habit quickly enough, and it would probably be in character for the Dark Lord. Most authors who are fond of witty protagonists forget that, as well as that one person being in character, everyone else needs to be as well. (A variation of point 1, where people tend to just laugh, regardless of whether it makes sense for them to do).

Perhaps the party’s wit just can’t hold himself back when the fat king is debriefing them on defending the country, and makes a crack about the king’s weight. I would be more surprised than not if the party wit didn’t wind up with shit detail.

Perhaps the witty noblewoman—who probably doesn’t want to wear dresses, either—spreads amusing but malicious stories about another noblewoman. She might not have to watch for poison in her tea, but a tear in her dress or cat piss in her perfume bottle? Quite possibly.

You remember the one kid in school who always tried waaay too hard to be the class clown? Now think of him in place of your oh-so-witty protagonist, and you might have a glimpse of how other people, especially the targets of her barbs, could see her.

5) Please, no puns that are dependent on English. I’ve had whole books ruined for me because the key to the plot was a pun or riddle that depended on the coincidence of two English words, or even an English letter. Most times, the people in your other world will not be speaking English. There are exceptions, certainly, but it destroys suspension of disbelief when you’ve gone to some trouble to set up the other language and then kill everything for the sake of making a funny.

Besides which, think of a fantasy author who is famous for using puns in his series: Piers Anthony, with the Xanth books, which have tended to decline steadily as the series went on. Do you really want a series that will remind people of the Xanth books in any way?

6) Don’t force the irony. Say one character makes a loud boasting wager: “I would stake my castle on it!” Meanwhile, the next chapter shows his castle being destroyed.

Ironic? Sure. Funny? It probably depends on the character and the situation, especially how much the reader likes him. Manipulative? Oh hell yes.

Irony of that sort, where one character unwittingly steps into trouble because of an occurrence that he cannot possibly know about, needs special circumstances to work. It has to be a natural part of the plot; if the writer of the previous example had the enemy destroy the character’s castle when he had no reason to do so, it would smack of the writer striving way too hard after what’s not a particularly good bit of irony. It has to happen for some other reason than to punish the character; since it’s an open author intrusion in the text, given that it depends on things like chapter arrangement, it’s very easy for the author to show favoritism or hatred for a particular character this way. And, finally, it has to not happen too often. If the author seizes every possible chance to display irony, then she’s going to become focused on making the story “funny fantasy” and not “good fantasy,” or, for that matter, “good funny fantasy.”

One or two instances of this kind of thing a book are enough, I think, and more than enough if they’re clumsily-handled. Irony is one thing authors love to use and snicker up their sleeves about. But when the snickering becomes loud enough for your audience to notice, you aren’t doing your job so much as indulging yourself.



Suggestions for next rant welcome.




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[info]youraugustine
2004-11-13 04:53 pm UTC (link)
::pets poor, oft-abused irony::

I seem to tend to irony that makes people flinch, rather than laugh. I find it funny, but I'm a little warped that way.

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[info]tiferet
2004-11-15 04:49 pm UTC (link)
Same here.

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[info]luna_manar
2004-11-13 05:32 pm UTC (link)
Have you done a rant on the role of celestial bodies in fantasy (i.e., stars, moons, suns, meteors, etc)? I see a lot of fantasy that uses celestial influences to power magic, prophecies and other supernatural ideals, but rarely is it ever explained why this is. It's just something that's sort of assumed in fantasy: the moon is magical, comets are prophetic and Speshul People become constellations when they die.

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[info]world_wanderer
2004-11-13 10:32 pm UTC (link)
I had forgotten my idea, until I saw that. I was gonna say, I've not seen Gods done good and proper. They always end up being exalted mortal people, even when they are supposed to be Gods in the Christian sense(omnipotent, omnisentient, etc.). Such things need a bit of work to come out properly.

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[info]criada
2004-11-14 07:54 am UTC (link)
I heartily agree with you. Even though many real-life gods, like the Greeks, often seem like glorified mortals on occasion thanks to their petty behavior, they are so much more if you look at them in a larger context of the society that worships them. They are inextricably tied to each other and usually come out being quite profound if you can get beyond the pettiness, taking it instead as a model for finding godly parallels in our own lives. (Or for that matter, does anyone question the gods' petty behavior in fantasy stories, like certain Greek philosophers did?) Most people don't get anywhere beyond saying that their goddess is the goddess of love and oh, look, she's marked the heroine with a pretty heart? Anyone who writes about gods should read some Campbell, Jung and/or other books on comparative mythology and religion.
I personally like keeping my gods ambiguous, like in real life. Maybe they're there, maybe not.

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[info]world_wanderer
2004-11-14 10:49 am UTC (link)
Oh, my gods are definitely there, but definitely not petty. There are ways. I'm Mormon, and that's how I'm going about God. The fun thing is going to be doing the other gods.

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[info]ciaan
2004-11-13 05:41 pm UTC (link)
Please, no puns that are dependent on English.

Oh. God. Yes. I hate that.

Want a reader to cry over your touching farewell scene, and know that that character would make a fart joke?

It did work in Shaun Of The Dead, but that doesn't mean anyone else needs to do it.

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[info]johnnymcbadass
2004-11-13 08:33 pm UTC (link)
Heh, agreed. The one time it worked, and partly thanks to Simon Pegg's acting chops.

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[info]lainyle
2004-11-13 05:49 pm UTC (link)
Your #4 made me grin. One of my characters often uses bitter sarcasm to get points across, often coming off as humor. This guy has been thrown in the dungeon for his remarks, beaten up, attacked, made enemies from friends, and in general only a handful of characters will tolerate him. I think the only person "taken aback" by his remark also happened to be the one to throw him in the dungeon. Does he learn? Yes, but can never get rid of it entirely.

Then again, I write parody fantasy, so the humor should be different. =]

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[info]tavalya_ra
2004-11-13 07:44 pm UTC (link)
1. The character who I think of as my primary comic relief is also the one who is the first to take control of the situation and is scrambling to make sure (as best he can) that the world doesn't fall to pieces. His humor is sarcastic and cynical- if he didn't look for humor in situations, I think he would have a nervous breakdown.

I would be more interested in an assassin with a dry sense of humor than an assassin who woke screaming from nightmares about ice.

Ice? If that's what freaks out the assassin, it's time to start hiring from another guild.

3. Hmm... I'm not sure if I have moments of inappropriate humor. I think that if I write them, I usually catch them and edit them out. If there is any sexual inneuendo or suggestion at a moment of tension, it is because the tension at that particular moment is sexual.

Want a reader to cry over your touching farewell scene, and know that that character would make a fart joke? Then leave out the character.

Or kill him. That might make the reader happy.

The Dark Lord might have his soldiers beat someone who insults him to his face. Hey, he's the Dark Lord.

I prefer the Dark Lord to say something that shuts the hero up. I'm more likely to fear someone who displays intellect then someone who uses brute force as a response to everything.

6. My plots tend to result in irony that manifests itself in another book. I don't plan it- I don't even realize it right away. It's not obvious either- I don't think most readers would catch it unless they were rereading the series.

(Oh, how I love talking of hypothetical readers for books I have not finished.)

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[info]luna_manar
2004-11-13 10:43 pm UTC (link)

I prefer the Dark Lord to say something that shuts the hero up. I'm more likely to fear someone who displays intellect then someone who uses brute force as a response to everything.


I read an awesome scene once, I wish I could remember where...but the villain had the maiden tied up and was getting ready to rape her, and she started telling him things like "I'm not your mother, you know, I'm not the kids who laughed at you, I'm not whoever it is that hurt you to make you like this, so you don't have to hurt me or kill me, because I'm not like them and I'll never tell anyone about this..." classic victim-trying-to-save-herself-by-psychologizing-her-captor. The villain abruptly stuck tape over her mouth and told her, "No, I'm going to hurt you and kill you because you talk too much." And, despite the fact that the rest of the scene was a grotesque and detailed rape and murder, which of course, is not a good thing, I was cheering for the author for not wimpifying the villain by making him get all teary-eyed and pouring his soul out to his VICTIM, which you see in SO many stories, fantasy or not, it makes me sick. That was hardcore, right there. I love scenes like that.

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[info]tavalya_ra
2004-11-14 07:52 am UTC (link)
The villain abruptly stuck tape over her mouth and told her, "No, I'm going to hurt you and kill you because you talk too much."

Haha. Well, I think the hurting part might be unnecessary, but the killing? Definitely. Just shut the hero up already.

My villain would just blink and ask the herione, "What on earth made you think I would rape you?" And then mock her for her assumptions and leave her very, very confused. (Easier to manipulate her later!)

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[info]litagemini
2005-05-18 09:02 pm UTC (link)
I think something similar happened in the Maxx. Cept, like, she killed the dood, but, you know.

Didn't realize you were reading this journal, just found it today. :)

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[info]luna_manar
2005-05-19 12:03 am UTC (link)
Yeah, I noticed you did. :P I've been reading it for quite a while.

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[info]corvid
2004-11-13 07:50 pm UTC (link)
Hmm - one other thing I hate in humorous scenes is when a character steps out of character purely for the sake of the joke. The idea of consequences of humor sounds interesting.

As for other topics, perhaps on creating a complex original "evil" society? Or complexity versus simplicity in general in plots? I can think of ways that a complex plot can weaken and help a story, and the same for a simplistic plot. I think you may have covered those already.

Another potential idea may be introducing new characters? Formulaic "he was wearing x, and did this which obviously encapsulates his character" kind of stuff, for example. I think you may have covered that topic too.

A personal weakness of mine is for sort of - puzzle like plots where everything interlocks. Or stories where the main characters can succeed through a clever use of what they have - though those sort of inventory puzzle kind of stories can be hard to write well. The only one I remember reading was A Gathering of Garoyles by Meredith Ann Pierce, and it wasn't a stunning book. (The amazon.com summary for it is far more amusing then the book was, as I rememeber it.)

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[info]ciaan
2004-11-14 06:52 am UTC (link)
I didn't really like A Gathering Of Gargoyles, and that made me very sad, because the first book in the series, The Darkangel, is actually quite good.

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[info]johnnymcbadass
2004-11-13 08:36 pm UTC (link)
Unfortunately, Martin uses English-dependent jokes. Well, he had to have one fault, I guess.

Did you get that mail I sent back to you? I ask because I never know with AOL.

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[info]limyaael
2004-11-15 04:14 am UTC (link)
He does? Where? I can't remember one.

I just sent the mail to you. Let me know if you don't get it.

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Next Rant
[info]isdestroyer
2004-11-13 09:49 pm UTC (link)
I would really like to see a rant on how to write short stories. I plan on writing a series of short stories to build my world up before I go on the "quest" story.

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[info]sanguimane
2004-11-14 01:33 am UTC (link)

I agree that no character should be entirely comic relief or you end up with Jar Jar Binks, and i don't think anyone wants that. The humour should arise only from situation. The actual people in PG Wodehouse are rarely being funny or think that they are funny it is all in how the authorial voice of PG informs the reader of their actions which, in other hands could be almost those of a romance novel.

Personally, I love to pull the rug out from under the unfortunate reader, leading them to
suggest they are about to witness unutterable horrors and then leading them into a silly conversation about magical face lift make overs, which I wrote up just yesterday in fact, (Details upon request).

I muse upon a scene in 'Confessions of an Opium Eater' by DeQuincy where what is essentially quite a tense scene about a strange visitor that DeQuincy later thinks he may have inadvertently murdered! Is actually described to hilarious effect. The nature of the scene is almost unimportant, it is how it is communicated that makes for humour or no.

The reverse s true as well, lure te reader into expecting comedy and then slap them with tragedy when they least expect it, the transition can be difficult to flag because it is very difficult to stop someone laughing when they have started, they will laugh at almost anything for a while. The real trick is doing both at the same time, which 'BUffy' has occasionally done to almost unique effect (for TV).

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[info]otakukeith
2004-11-14 03:24 am UTC (link)
AMEN. I can't stand it when serious stories get ruined by bad jokes.

Ideas for the next rant:

-Helpful Strangers. This comes up a lot in Anne McCaffrey's books, but I imagine you get it with other authors who have Mary Sue heroines/heroes. Some nice person or group of people take in the poor abused protagonist, feed him/her, give him/her nice clothes, etc., and generally are far nicer than anyone the protagonist has ever met, usually for no obvious reason.
-Themes and Issues in fantasy. I'm writing a rant on this myself at the moment, but I'd be interested to see your views on whether it's possible to get a "message" across or express a clear theme in fantasy without getting preachy.

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[info]melarin
2004-11-14 06:27 am UTC (link)
Great rant, very true.

How about a rant on clothing? Or noblewomen. You mention in your rants a lot about the "I don't wanna wear a dress!" type, who wants to marry the poor (but respectable) footman and has perfect shiny hair. How about giving us a rant on how to write a good noblewoman, who understand her role in society, yet isn't passive or shy?

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Ideas!
[info]shadenv
2004-11-14 08:36 am UTC (link)
Maybe not a rant, but a top ten list of your favorite books and series? Something I can print out and take to the bookstore or hand to people buying me Christmas presents?

Rants: merpeople, pirates, sailors, naval forces in fantasy, magical objects, magical objects, cursed objects, how to write interesting minor villians/characters, werewolves, transportation options, love spells, and astrology in fantasy.

Short story writing.

Not all in one rant, of course.

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[info]world_wanderer
2004-11-14 10:58 am UTC (link)
The first stories of mine are set in the near future. Man is just getting off into space, and the characters are finding themselves in situations that have only been speculated in sci-fi. I've been thinking about putting some humor in this way, making sarcastic and ironic references to such things as Star Wars and the like. I know it would take alot of work, but do you think it could work out?

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[info]cygna_hime
2004-11-14 01:08 pm UTC (link)
*pats her own pathetic humor* I worry that I'm not funny, because I am a non-recovering banter addict and can never write it as well. However, I find that the way I'm writing the current story (which has a character who might be mistaken for 'designated comic relief' at first glance), with many adjusting viewpoints, helps to restrict the one-sidedness to the alleged humor.

1) Heck no. I forget, now, how he did start. Now, he's turned into Mercutio. Somehow. Of his own accord.
2) I cannot cease to snark--okay, I can, but not when snark is needed. There's enough sibling-ness to be funny, and thank them my 'humor'-type is not the only one with a sense of humor.
3) I do try to avoid collapsing the tension once I've built it, but I do usually have to recourse to switching scenes. Once Mercutio-type shows up, he will diffuse the tension at least somewhat. Especially when it's not 'his' scene.
4) Hrrrm. He fights with his twin sister constantly about it, fights in a major way with his mother about it, and has a certain element of tension in his other relationships with his family/friends because he's never serious. Of course, he is serious on occasion, but usually makes it look like he isn't. He would sass the Dark Lord if he were before him in chains--but let the Dark Lord start hurting his friends, and he'd shut up pretty darn quick.;
5) Snark is not, so far as I know, particularly English-dependant. But I'll try to avoid puns, anyway--they are, in many ways, the most difficult humor to do well.
6) Not much irony, unless he's noting it himself. No me-snickering, either.

I deeply hope that I will be able to make this character funny, but I have a sneaking suspicion that he won't be. *sigh* I hate my own high standards.

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[info]sythyry
2004-11-15 10:33 am UTC (link)
I write about sophomores a lot. Some of my characters want to make bad puns; it's in-character. I find that it's better to write a bad English pun than to write something incomprehensible and give a footnote that it's a pun in Ketherian.

I am fretting about whether to have a note somewhere that the book is done in translation, and puns are translated to puns.

(But the pun is entirely in the dialog. I don't do Xanth.)

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[info]tiferet
2004-11-15 04:48 pm UTC (link)
I love it when you put things into words that I don't know how to. Like, for instance, when you perfectly nail 95% of the reasons I won't read anything that reads like it was written for the laughs.

I like it when things are funny.

I hate comedy.

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[info]thesmoot
2004-11-17 09:58 am UTC (link)
I agree about the benefits of characters not intentionally trying to be funny.

I see you're a Pratchett admirer, too- his stuff makes me laugh all the time, but very few of his characters crack jokes on purpose. (When they do, they tend to be like the unfunny Fool's Guild, horrible punsters like the Heralds, or just plain bad at joke-telling like Granny Weatherwax.)

Rant Suggestion: Education. (How do people get taught? Where do the Noble Peasants learn to read? What kind of lessons would the Greatest Swordsman have taken? When I see that sort of thing, at all, it seems very shoddily done...)

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