Limyaael ([info]limyaael) wrote,
@ 2004-11-25 14:58:00
Previous Entry  Add to memories!  Tell a Friend!  Next Entry
Current mood: amused
Entry tags:characterization rants: villains, fantasy rants: autumn 2004

Rant on creating non-Dark Lord villains.
For [info]readerravenclaw, a rant on creating villains that aren’t Dark Lords—or aren’t even designated villains, really.



1) Exaggerate a trait that could be good. One reason I find Dark Lords boring is because so many of them seem utterly inhuman. They’re inhumanly cruel. They torture people in ways that it’s hard to conceive of many people dreaming about or implementing on that scale. They know that what they’re doing is wrong, a great deal of the time, and yet they do it anyway. And that’s just not much of a human motivation. The people who inflicted torture and cruelty throughout history often did it for an ideal, not something they thought of as perverted and evil. Religion, improving society, bettering the position of a group that until then hadn’t had anything, purifying their races—all those sound like good ideas, and that was why people followed them.

Much more interesting, I think, and one way to get human villains, is to take a trait that’s double-edged, both “good” and “evil,” and show the villain as someone who’s taken the “evil” side of that trait to its logical extreme. Heroes often get the virtues that could be faults, but their authors always write them as gifts instead (something else that annoys me. How many times have you seen a quick-witted hero actually jump to false conclusions, for example?) If you have a quick-witted villain, show them as moving so quickly to reach a conclusion that they miss some logical steps in between. If you have a quick-tempered one, show them as letting their anger dominate and cause their cruelty. They might be very sorry afterwards. Abusers often are.

What often marks a fantasy villain, both Dark Lords and the more human kind, is their exaggerated power to cause harm; no one would really care if they were only causing harm to themselves, or even to a small village. So show them as exaggerated in all aspects, if you want. But that exaggeration has to be based on something identifiable as occurring in other people, too, or the villain becomes a shadow-puppet, a caricature—a Dark Lord. Cruelty that no one can see themselves committing under any circumstances is only disgusting, not scary. The scariest thing about a villain is the, “There but for the grace of gods” aspect. The reader should remember that the hero could have become this kind of person, and, if the author’s really good, she’ll see herself in the villain, too.

2) Add little aspects that make the villain more admirable. I don’t mean necessarily show that he had a bad childhood or anything of the kind. Too often, that comes off as an “excuse” for the way that he is now. But do acknowledge that he’s not 100% evil and horrible and cruel. That keeps the reader off-balance, and not so ready to say, “Oh, what a jerk!”

I’ll use a personal example here. The series I’m writing now has a powerful villainess, Hellenta Ravenflower, who is, nonetheless, 100% human. She managed to achieve power for herself in a very male-dominated society by bearing 14 children and using them ruthlessly to gain control of lands, other noble families, and eventually politics. There’s really no excuse for any of what she did. She used and manipulated other human beings, and it showed.

Along the way, she was also cast out of her home for having bastard children, forced to bear eight children within nine years, raped (and impregnated with more bastard children at the same time), and kept from achieving anything until she finally, finally secured herself a position as a regent for her small son and had the money and power to strike back at her enemies. Her overriding motive is security for her family. Everything she does is done to insure that. And three of the children she raised love and adore her.

Is she evil? Oh, yes. I think selling one of her bastard daughters into a service where she would be raped and made to simulate sex in public from the time she was six years old counts as evil. Is she hateful? Oh, yes, if the reactions of the people reading her are anything to go by. But is she inhuman? I don’t think so. She has courage, she cares deeply for the future of her family and her children—she just doesn’t agree with most of them on what the best course for that future is—and she is a survivor, whose hard experiences only made her the more determined to fight. And she is clever enough to frighten her enemies even as she pisses them off.

I think this is the best way to create a villain who isn’t really a villain at all, only a protagonist seen from a different angle. If the motives are understandable and the villain possesses some qualities we would be ready to admire in isolation, it’s a very good start.

Note that I didn’t say it was easy. I don’t think it is. But I think it is very, very good.

3) Make the villain an interesting person to talk to and about. Want to know a bad, shameful secret? One reason I put down fantasy books so often is because their villains are fucking boring.

Strong characters are a must for me to enjoy a fantasy. I think what most authors forget is that that means strong characters for everybody, not just the hero who’s intended to suck up all the attention. Secondary heroes are shadows compared to them, let alone the nasty, dark, cackling shadow of a villain.

Villains can avoid the most obvious and stupid Dark Lord mistakes—for example, killing most of their servants in botched attempts to capture the hero, or blabbing everything to the hero just before he blasts them—and still not be interesting or strong characters. They will still use clichéd dialogue, such as, “You wouldn’t dare!” or “You cannot stop me!” or “I like a woman with spirit.” They’ll still want to rule the world with no justification for it being given. They’ll still do torture scenes with utter gratuitousness, where it seems as though psychological tricks would work better on the hero. They’ll still hate the protagonists for extremely ill-explained reasons, like jealousy of the heroine’s beauty or wanting to “possess” the hero, whatever that means.

Try to clear the preconceptions from your mind before writing a scene with the villain in it. Think like he does. Try to imagine that you share the same goals and desires. Now, how would you achieve them? Authors don’t hesitate to give the heroes bits of themselves, grow close to them, love them. The same process has to happen with the villains, or they’re automatic Dark Lords.

4) They don’t have to have a stronghold. People keep trying to steal Mordor, and their name’s not spelt T-O-L-K-I-E-N. So this doesn’t work.

Really, why does the villain have to live in one place at all? That only gives the “good guys” a target, and leads authors into raptures of ugliness that start echoing each other, and eventually result in Mordor-theft. Sensible villains whose ego is not their greatest fault (please, can’t we have more of them?) and whose main purpose is wreaking havoc against the good guys would not be sitting ducks. They would make sitting ducks of the forces of good.

What about a bandit villain? A guerilla villain? They’re light, quick, and fast-moving, and they often have forests, mountains, or jungles to hide in. They can strike fast, providing they know the country, and leap away again before the good guys, sitting in their own castles or strongholds, can muster the forces to face them. And even if the forces do come to the forests, mountains, or jungles—well, good luck in finding them.

I think one reason authors don’t do this more often is because the rebels are automatically assumed to be the heroes. Don’t have to be. Just because someone is in power doesn’t make him evil. Here and here are some suggestions for adding some reality to rebels. Wield them on the “wrong” side, and you could end up with a truly formidable villain—or antagonist, which might be the better word, since I think in that case fantasy author preconceptions about rebels would, at least in part, neutralize fantasy author preconceptions about the people opposing their precious heroes. You might end up with something far more human than Dark Lord.

5) Show a villain whose problems aren’t stereotypical. When fantasy villains are blinded by their own faults, those faults are either arrogance or insanity. Both are desperately overplayed.

I always wonder how arrogant villains ascended into power. Arrogance usually leads to overestimating one’s own abilities and underestimating the abilities of others. I would expect them to have underestimated a fairly minor antagonist fairly early on and gotten themselves blasted. Or perhaps, if they were summoning demons to aid them, they would have summoned a more powerful demon than they could control and gotten eaten. Or they would have commanded their “loyal” soldiers to follow them into a life-and-death situation and had the soldiers refuse. The odds aren’t good that someone as arrogant as most fantasy Dark Lords would have survived long enough to become a Dark Lord.

As for insanity… once again, how did they get into power? Why do people follow this madman? It’s one thing if the villain is cool enough and charismatic enough to keep his insanity hidden fairly well, but that would require fantasy authors to be subtle, and fantasy authors don’t go for that. Everything must be dramatic. So their villains gibber and gloat and, yes, make stupid mistakes. Why are they rulers at all? Why do their followers not betray them en masse? Why don’t the trusted lieutenants simply ignore their orders, make up better ones instead, and then lie when the Dark Lord finds out? Hey, if they’re as crazy as the authors usually portray them, they could be fooled by fairly simple lies.

Villains with different problems can still often achieve a modicum of power. A quick-tempered man might lose his temper at his wife, but keep it around his troops because they never do anything to piss him off. A man who’s always accusing people of things they didn’t do might not be trusted in the front lines of an army, but he might be perfect for a suspicious king to put in charge of a treasury. Or perhaps the villain has his power and then starts having problems with arrogance or insanity—cracking under the strain, as it were. It’s hard work ruling an empire, y’know? Authors show emperors and kings with problems all the time. Your villain might be the exact same sort of man in exactly the same sort of situation.

6) Shake off the “diametrically opposed” conception. Do you want to write a fantasy novel where the characters are living in another world, interacting with magic, have different histories and societies, and yet don’t serve Good and Evil, Darkness and Light? The first thing that has to go is the concept of Good and Evil itself.

By this, I don’t mean getting rid of all moral distinctions. I mean getting rid of capitalized moral distinctions. Fantasy authors as a group use waaaay too many capital letters. Try not referring to your villains by a capitalized name like the Dark, the Shadow, or the Dark Lord first. See what happens.

Then, show why those villains, under the circumstances, have performed questionable actions and made wrong decisions. It doesn’t mean that those actions and decisions would always be wrong. It means that, in these circumstances, it was the wrong thing to do.

This cuts out a whole other bunch of behavior. Most people would not agree that raping and disemboweling children is right under any circumstances. Nor would they think that raping hundreds of women is right, or commanding your army to destroy villages full of old people, or torturing people by putting hot wires into their eyes. That means that, if your villains and heroes are going to be the same people serving different ideals, they can’t pull this shit that authors use all too often to differentiate the heroes and their allies from those bad, bad people over on the other side. “They must be bad! Look what they’re doing!” runs the mantra of the Dark Lord creator.

Toss that out the window, and you’re playing with new techniques. You’re on tricky ground, in fact, because a “hero” might go too far and become, for one scene, a “villain.” Someone might do something that has bad consequences, but arises from the most noble of motives, and in which they couldn’t foresee the bad consequences. Are they a villain or a hero in that case? Someone might turn a fugitive over to the guards, under the impression that he’s a wanted murderer, and then find out he didn’t do the crime he was accused of, so they go to set this man free—only to have him, once he’s free, become the catalyst for a rebellion in which hundreds of people die. Is that original person a villain or a hero?

Fantasy authors avoid this for a good reason. It fucks up the “clear moral base” that supposedly all fantasy depends on. Topple the pedestals—the ones built either way, to exalt the villains in darkness or the heroes in light—and everyone has to walk on the same level ground. That level ground has quicksand of moral ambiguity and briar bushes of nasty consequences. And quicksand and briar bushes don’t discriminate.



Rant on balancing description, dialogue, and action next.




Page 1 of 2
<<[1] [2] >>

(Post a new comment)


[info]inarticulate
2004-11-25 12:02 pm UTC (link)
That's why I can't write villains. I keep seeing it from their perspective, too, and wanting them to win, and it turns into a whole big mess. I want everyone to be friends! Live happily ever after!

I suspect this may be why I can't plot my way out of a paper bag. ;)

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]limyaael
2004-11-25 12:06 pm UTC (link)
Well, working one's way through a diplomatic or peace process could be a plot, I think. Say the two sides have fought to a standstill before the story begins, and then have to reconcile. I think most fantasy authors don't do that because it's not "dramatic" enough.

But it might be something to consider.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]sir_hellsing, 2004-11-25 01:02 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2004-11-25 02:48 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]tiferet, 2004-11-25 01:53 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2004-11-25 02:51 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]tiferet, 2004-11-25 01:51 pm UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2004-11-26 02:57 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]tiferet, 2004-11-26 03:13 pm UTC

[info]troubadour118
2004-11-25 12:11 pm UTC (link)
Again, this is where I looooooooooooove Martin. Your conceptions of who is "good" and who is "evil" don't last past A Game of Thrones.

Can you recommend any good fantasies besides the Brust books where the protagonist is the "villain," per se? Jacqueline Carey's new duology is a fairly intelligent deconstruction of the Tolkien stereotypes from the perspective of the villains, but I haven't made up my mind yet whether it's actually a good STORY or just . . . clever commentary on stereotypes. XD

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]tiferet
2004-11-25 01:54 pm UTC (link)
Well, Cersei has certainly not managed to redeem any of her actions in my eyes, but I'll go for your basic premise because if anyone had told me before book 3 that I would ever like Jaime...

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2004-11-25 02:54 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]otakukeith, 2004-11-25 03:27 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]maureenlycaon, 2004-11-25 08:42 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]othercat, 2004-11-25 04:41 pm UTC

[info]troubadour118
2004-11-25 12:14 pm UTC (link)
It's also interesting to read this because one of my ideas I have on the backburner has to do with "Dark Lord Syndrome" where the fantasy world has an elite soldier unit dedicated to taking out leaders and rulers with "Dark Lord Syndrome" before they acquire too much power. It cries out for parody. XD

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]kutsuwamushi
2004-11-25 12:46 pm UTC (link)
Queer Eye for the Straight Evil Guy, Dark Lord edition: "Quick! Lord Swartblatt has taken to wearing all black! Thom, where's the visa? Unless we get him a colorful new wardrobe, this will end in disaster!"

Now I'm imagining a short story about your elite soldiers gluing frilly pink hats on to the heads of wannabe Dark Lords, because no one in a frilly pink hat can be a Dark Lord.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]otakukeith, 2004-11-25 03:29 pm UTC

[info]kutsuwamushi
2004-11-25 12:32 pm UTC (link)
I'm curious ... do you know of any fantasy that was written from the point of view of the "villain" that worked well?

The best villains, in my opinion, aren't villains at all. <3 tragedy.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]limyaael
2004-11-25 02:59 pm UTC (link)
Brust's Vlad books, of course. ;) His Agyar, in which the protagonist is much more like a true villain. Zelazny's Corwin is pretty darn unlikeable at first. Grunts! might count, but I've heard conflicting opinions about that.

Other than that, I'm running dry right now.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]kutsuwamushi, 2004-11-25 04:14 pm UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2004-11-26 02:05 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]worldserpent, 2004-11-26 02:05 pm UTC

[info]lnhammer
2004-11-25 12:43 pm UTC (link)
Re: #1 — yes, yes, yes.

Aristotle's whole point was that the strengths of tragic heroes are also their weaknesses. (The translation of harmatia as "tragic flaw" has caused no end of confusion.) Aristotle's example shows this most clearly — Oedipus is quickwitted and fastacting. This makes him a good hero and effective king, but this not only causes all the trouble, but speeds the discovery of same.

This also works with comedy — only, of course, the direction of irony is reversed, with the comic hero's flaws turning out to be their strengths. But I digress.

---L.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]limyaael
2004-11-25 03:01 pm UTC (link)
I think one problem with most fantasy authors is that they simply don't realize how essential flaws are. I've read a lot of character profiles where the flaws the author listed either didn't impact the story at all- for example, the character can't dance, but then never gets into a situation where dancing is important- or are checklists of problems to be "solved" by the story, which was why I did the flaw-scrubbing rant. Authors think characters must be flawlessly beautiful, flawlessly smart, and flawlessly perfect, which I think is one reason characters often have such good singing voices and other talents that aren't essential, but help to make them "more wonderful."

And they wonder why people tell them their characters are wooden...

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]lnhammer, 2004-11-26 06:59 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]ingriam, 2006-05-02 07:35 pm UTC

[info]cygna_hime
2004-11-25 01:19 pm UTC (link)
This is why my NaNovel is going to make 50,000 at all--I sat down and thought about, not what people do, but why they're doing it, and I came up with deep motivations for everyone. Including the major antagonist, who doesn't, as far as he thinks, see his children enough. Or the other one, who hates certain characters because he's burdened with being the Perfect Son (sorry, caps) and they're not. Or the other two, who just want to be free.

Of course, there's also the fact that everyone seems to be headed for living dysfunctionally ever after (which, let the record show, I did not plan). But that's another story.

(Reply to this)


[info]sabotabby
2004-11-25 01:32 pm UTC (link)
I tend to get bored very quickly with anything I'm writing if a significant amount of scenes aren't from the villains POV and generally sympathetic towards him or her. By and large, everything I like to read has interesting antagonists and flawed protagonists, so I don't see why I should write differently.

Of the two big projects I'm working on now, one (the more realistic story) has no named villains whatsover yet, and it's likely to stay that way. The set-up involves people who are more or less well-intentioned but brought into conflict for reasons beyond their control. And while I have vast, epic battles planned, the ultimate resolution is diplomatic and political rather than military in nature.

The other one does have a villain, but he's a nice guy compared to the antihero. He wants to do the right thing, but the means to his end are so steeped in corruption that he ends up just making everything worse. He's the product of a bad way of thinking rather than just being a bad person.

(Reply to this)


[info]tiferet
2004-11-25 01:47 pm UTC (link)
Hmmm. I have a villain who has done all kinds of bad things to his own children, but it was because he saw them as threats once they reached an age to be a challenge to him. He likes to surround himself with people who are not as strong as he is, or to make sure that the people around him who are strong knuckle under to him, which I think will be his downfall, but my biggest problem with him to date, and the reason the novel is not finished, is his motivation. I know one of the reasons he was so cruel to his daughter is that he is afraid of the goddess Ataniell and the girl has the marks of Ataniell all over her. (Ataniell is not a Good, Truth and Light goddess or a Dark Evil goddess, she's just a really dangerous goddess of a people who have been suppressed and dispersed, to whom desperate people tend to turn for justice/vengeance.)

But the thing that bugs me the most about this character is that he wants power, power, power and he has never ever managed to give me a satisfactory explanation of why he wants to be in charge of everything so badly that he is willing to do significant damage to the infrastructure and settle for broken lieutenants.

A lot of people tell me 'well, he's just power-mad'. But I'm really not sure why and I'm not sure I can accept it as a reason in and of itself. I keep thinking there's got to be something he's scared of--either that the Empire, which is made up of a lot of disparate ethnic groups which are constantly engaged in infighting, will fall apart, or a threat from outside.

Gah.

I refuse to go for the easy "he's possessed" crap that readers of my stories think would explain it all.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]limyaael
2004-11-25 03:07 pm UTC (link)
Perhaps he once had noble intentions, and was going to use his power to change the world for the better, and then got trapped into the situation of only acquiring power without using it for that purpose? That's apparently fairly common with money. People dream of everything good they would use money for if they had it, but when they do achieve it, their main goal is to get more money instead.

Perhaps the way he is now is just a holding pattern. Is there anything in the past that could have qualified to change him?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]tiferet, 2004-11-26 03:17 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]youraugustine, 2004-11-26 06:58 pm UTC

[info]maureenlycaon
2004-11-25 02:36 pm UTC (link)
The scariest thing about a villain is the, “There but for the grace of gods” aspect.

And here I thought myself alone in being a masochistic sort who actually enjoys that moment when, looking at a villain or an antihero, she thinks "That could be me!" Thank the gods I'm not.

But I think this gets into the distinction I've heard of between a villain and an antihero. Villains are essentially two-dimensional cardboard cutouts whose reason for existing is mainly for the hero to bring down, and so they often appear to be evil for evil's sake, and also often do stupid things: "Good evening, Mr. Bond. Let me explain my secret plan for world domination to you before I put you into a death trap that doesn't work." An antihero is a true character in his own right, and in fact is most often the protagonist -- one of those "morally ambiguous" characters.

Show a villain whose problems aren’t stereotypical. When fantasy villains are blinded by their own faults, those faults are either arrogance or insanity.

One of my favorite parts of the Vampire: the Masquerade trilogy is the book Chaining the Beast, because it has a section devoted to describing ten different personality disorders in roleplaying terms, and offering an example of a plausible character having each one. Maybe more writers could stand to read it.

For that matter, more writers could stand to read the Evil Overlord List.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]limyaael
2004-11-25 03:09 pm UTC (link)
Well, maybe it's just the way I write. I enjoy the hell out of getting inside my characters' heads- even the non-viewpoint characters- and understanding what makes them tick. I've heard from other writers that they don't like doing that, that they prefer the villain, especially if really distant from them morally, remain distant. I think it's harder to find common ground with the villain like that, and so perhaps harder to consciously acknowledge those moments where the villain seems very similar to her writer. I think it could still happen, but not in the forefront of the mind.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]maureenlycaon, 2004-11-25 09:18 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2004-11-26 09:21 am UTC

[info]jenlittlebottom
2004-11-25 03:15 pm UTC (link)
Heh. I simply can't write 'Dark Lord' types, so this is good. I suppose Nikola and Leander come closest, although in that case it's two Dark Lord types having a go at each other and who cares who get in the way.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]limyaael
2004-11-26 09:22 am UTC (link)
I can and do find characters like that fascinating. I think it depends on the tone the story's written in, too. If it's causal and funny, I can find it causal and funny- at least until I step back and remember what these characters are really talking about.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]otakukeith
2004-11-25 04:13 pm UTC (link)
New rant in my journal! (Finally.) On Themes and Issues in fiction.

Eminently sensible arguments, as ever. Books where everyone is a human being (i.e. three-dimensional) are so much better than yet another Good vs. Evil walkthrough. The argument is applicable to science fiction as well - Stephen Baxter's aliens, who are just trying to survive/prosper in their own ways, are much better than dribbling tentacled beasts from outer space who want to eat our brains, take our gold and steal our women. (Ironically, the seriously alien aliens like Baxter's or the ones in Peter F. Hamilton's most recent book tend to make better antagonists than ones who act like human Dark Lords.)

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]limyaael
2004-11-26 09:24 am UTC (link)
I've heard that Good vs. Evil walkthroughs are powerful because they call to archetypes in the brain or something. I think people forget that 'simple' doesn't necessarily equal 'powerful.'

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]youraugustine, 2004-11-26 06:38 pm UTC

[info]tavalya_ra
2004-11-25 04:25 pm UTC (link)
I think this is the best way to create a villain who isn't really a villain at all, only a protagonist seen from a different angle.

That's a major goal for me. If I can succeed at this, I think I can die happy.

One reason I put down fantasy books so often is because their villains are fucking boring.

That's not shameful. I openly admit that there are few things I love better than a well-crafted villain.

Authors don't hesitate to give the heroes bits of themselves, grow close to them, love them.

I actually like my villain better than my protagonists. I can't let him win- but I'm going to make damn sure he isn't defeated (or partially defeated- I'm not quite sure what state he'll be in at the very, very end) in a cheap way.

People keep trying to steal Mordor, and their name's not spelt T-O-L-K-I-E-N

I got so sick of lands of darkness marked by blights and evil creatures. I will not write about a blighted land unless there's a good reason- and that reason will be something other than a cheap means of illustrating how very, very evil (::snort::) an antagonist is.

I won't write random monsters or any "inherently" evil creatures. They just annoy me. >_<

Point five... I do have an insane villain, but by the time I get to him, I'll have had established other villains with other motives and personalities, so I think the reader will accept it. He really is nuts to do what he does knowing what he knows. But he's sane enough that insanity is NOT what will kill him. I prefer villains who, in the end, are defeated because they are overcome, not because they self-destructed.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]limyaael
2004-11-26 09:34 am UTC (link)
The insane villain probably would work better as a part of a constellation of other villains. But when he's the only one... well, why? Apart from the questions I asked in the rant itself, why hasn't one of the other, less insane villains risen up and toppled him?

One trilogy that I otherwise might have forgotten, the Time Master trilogy, remains dear to me because of the villain-like main character, Tarod, and the way the author deals with the woman who betrayed Tarod. The woman's not insane or even really evil, just an incredible bitch, and the comeuppance is among the best I've read.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]tavalya_ra, 2004-11-26 12:08 pm UTC

[info]undeadgoat
2004-11-25 04:33 pm UTC (link)
The reader should remember that the hero could have become this kind of person

That's one of the greatest plot points of Thief of Time, I think, when we realize that Jeremy and Lobsang are similar because they're the same person. Wait, no, that example sucks. It's really more ike in The Truth, when we realize that no matter how much we hate Lord de Worde for being a supercilious bastard, we love William for exactly the same reason, and the only material difference is that William is determined to Not Be Like His Dad.

“I like a woman with spirit.”

"No one knows why men say things like this."

This is a very heartable rant. I likes it.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]limyaael
2004-11-26 09:35 am UTC (link)
Thanks. And yes, Pratchett is often good at this, as well as at including villian-like qualities in his heroes. I can think of so many authors in whose hands Vimes would have become a caricature, and Vetinari, and Sybil, and Nobby, and Colon, and Carrot, and...

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]undeadgoat, 2004-11-26 12:06 pm UTC

[info]readerravenclaw
2004-11-25 05:05 pm UTC (link)
Thanks for the rant. :D I fully agree that antagonists who consider themselves the "good guys" are much more interesting than stereotypical villains.

If anything, I err too much on the opposite side; I don't include enough (any?) characters who are actually trying to prevent the hero from reaching his goal. The difficulties and set-backs result from the hero's lack of knowledge and nature(magic-based conflicts more than anything else. The only "villains" around are one who is now mostly reformed, another who is long dead, and a couple who are just nasty without going out of their way to cause problems. Of course, there are also various people who make things difficult for the hero along the way, people who try to prevent him from reaching side goals - but all are hoping that the hero succeeds in reaching his main goal.

But as I type this, I'm realizing that I do have the potential for adding another plot element to the story; there's a group of magicians who do have a motive for wanting to get rid of the hero - but only if they're kept ignorant of certain key information. I'll have to think about that. :)

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]limyaael
2004-11-26 09:41 am UTC (link)
Beyond characters, there can be antagonists in the weather, in nature, in the hero himself. Some of the best fantasies I've read are about the hero struggling with himself, trying to leave behind the aspects that would prevent him from achieving his goals and strengthen the ones that would actually help him. The struggle doesn't have to be easy, short, or one-dimensional, though, like most aspects of writing, it can turn into that.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]youraugustine
2004-11-25 07:37 pm UTC (link)
Granted, I am writing an unabashed Dark Lord. :) He, like most of the story, is me looking at the stereotype and wondering what would happen if it were Real.

The reader should remember that the hero could have become this kind of person <--frankly, if Puck ever goes off the deep end, he'll make his brother look like Mickey Mouse. We shall hope this never happens.

Authors don’t hesitate to give the heroes bits of themselves, grow close to them, love them. <-- . . . .yeah. How about that. (we're not going to get into my occasional psychopathic tendencies, nor how close I often feel to that rift. It's not a fun topic.)

Really, why does the villain have to live in one place at all? <--bingo. :) Especially when you have formless, shapeable chaos to work with.

5) Show a villain whose problems aren’t stereotypical. <--an issue where I wonder if I can get it across properly without working in a quick lesson on psychopathy, because neither arrogance nor insanity are responsible for Hawk's downfall - although it LOOKS like arrogance. It isn't. It's an honest and complete lack of understanding of two peoples' motives, because he literally can't understand it, and never gets the opportunity to study it and see how it works, understanding it aside. It's a downfall of psychopathy. :3 (Likewise with the impatience/lack of self-control that gets him there in the first place.)

. . . .and then, of course, there are the fun scenes I get to do soonish of him warping people like Dhialsthe right round in their heads. Fun.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]limyaael
2004-11-26 09:43 am UTC (link)
an issue where I wonder if I can get it across properly without working in a quick lesson on psychopathy, because neither arrogance nor insanity are responsible for Hawk's downfall - although it LOOKS like arrogance. It isn't.

Well, Tolkien managed to convey that Sauron didn't understand that his enemies wouldn't wield the Ring against him, and that was why he didn't even look for them to destroy it- but he did that by working lessons into the body of the story, too. So I'm not sure that would work. Perhaps have a character who, like Boromir, can't understand why Hawk can't be defeated in a straightforward manner, and have one of the others explain to him why. It wouldn't have to take long.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]youraugustine, 2004-11-26 06:42 pm UTC

[info]deathglare
2004-11-25 08:20 pm UTC (link)
I'm so more likely to have villians in a more gnostic sense of the world.Instead of Dark.... the villians are of the Light varient. The forces that protect the world stiffling it as well. Authority crushing Free Will because they call it divine right.Destiny and Fate taking away people's dreams and possible happiness because the forces dictate that it should be so.

Who needs villains that try to ruin it all when you can have villans that don't care about the little people because they're zealous for their cause.

I'd definately like to see a reversel in how things are treated in fantasy in that regard.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]onyxflame
2006-03-04 02:07 am UTC (link)
Or villains who destroy things by trying to save them. Those are REALLY fun to RP, by the way. ;)

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]kadaria
2004-11-25 10:11 pm UTC (link)
I like your take on Dark Villians.
I have trouble seeing dark-evil-nasty-bad villians simply becaus I do not believe them to exist. To steal a quote from a friend's AOL profile: There is no right or wrong in the world. Only two rights.
A villian isn't going to think that what she is doing is wrong.

The only "good" sort of Dark Lord villian I've come across was Stephen King's Walking Man from his novel The Stand. Walking Man is a personification of Satan who shows up in post-plagued America, surrounds himself with not so nice people (A convict, a pyromaniac, etc) and some ok people in order to rebuild a new civilization with just as much violence and hate as the last. He doesn't do anything specifically evil but he does have that dark Aura.

I don't feel like I am writing a 'villian' though when I put in an antagonist. From my writing the best example would probably be Lord Dunthro. He holds the lives of the other characters in his hands, mainly because he owns them (which happens to be perfectly legal in his society). He's an antagonist because he acts on his whims (say, having sex with a certain slave or ordering that another be punishing in a horrible manner) but as their owner, he is perfectly within his rights since the only thing holding him back is the invisible social rules that only frown upon doing certain things with slaves. However, if no one finds out about them, then no one can shun him.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]deathglare
2004-11-25 10:50 pm UTC (link)
When you figure it how the Stand works into the Dark Tower series... things get a lot stranger in regards of the Walking Man.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2004-11-26 02:19 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]kjkhyperion, 2007-02-26 08:47 am UTC

[info]arian
2004-11-26 05:05 am UTC (link)
That's so true. I've thought that for a long time. It's far more interesting to write in shades of grey than Black and White. One of my long-term projects is currently taking that to extremes.

Bad guys are never good unless you can understand WHY they're doing whatever it is they're doing. And, of course, that makes them a little more scary because if you can understand why they're behaving that way then you are so much closer to behaving that way yourself.

All characters need to be real and need to have plausible motivation. I just hope a lot of people take your advice, then in a couple of years there might be some really good new fantasy around to read.

(Reply to this)


(Anonymous)
2004-11-26 03:11 pm UTC (link)
One of my bad guys is currently driving me crazy, because I just don't understand him.

There is a gang of three antagonists.

One, the boss, suffers from arrogance: He simply believes he knows best and doesn't play well with others. His town supports him, but he has disregarded to many treaties and compromises, and his chickens are coming home to roost... he's becoming ruthless and paranoid and believes everyone's plotting against him -- which causes everyone to plot against him.

His second-in-command believes that his boss is right, and that, even if his boss should be wrong, loyalty demands that he deny it.

And then there's the boss's left-hand-man, his chief bully. And that one I don't get. Every time I try to have him interact with the protagonists (who can't afford to antagonize him, and are already on his bad side because his boss doesn't like them), he spouts only idiotic bully lines. He should be threatening, and isn't. Sigh.

I wonder if there's any character in a book or movie who I could use as a template...

[whining ends]

inge

(Reply to this)


[info]damien_winter
2004-11-26 04:30 pm UTC (link)
You know what would be hilarious/brilliant?

A dark lord who created a land of utter decay, despair, fire, brimstone, etc, etc...

And then didn't live there. Seriously, the forces of All that is Good and Holy and Light would like, charge in, and the Dark Lord would be sitting in a shanty by a river, possibly near the protagonist's hometown, and drinking cider or something. Possibly plotting more booby traps for his Evil Land of Despair. The protagonist (henceforth, Prolet) would charge bravely into the throne room of the Evil Evil Dark Gory Ugly Castle, risking life and limb and all sorts of important things, and find... nothing.

And then while he's standing there with one of those 'OMGWTF o_O' looks on his face, a recording starts playing that says:

"Dear Prolet. I really can't believe how stupid you are. Do you actually think that anyone would live here? Look around! Look! There's *bodies* on the walls! *Decaying* bodies! Do you know how much those things stink? Listen! Do you hear the cries of the damned emanating from the dungeons? Could *you* sleep through those? I think not.
"In summary, dear Prolet, you're not worthy of the sight of my purple fingernails. Goodbye."

And then Prolet panics, and charges out, thinking it's gonna explode or something, and then it doesn't.

Okay, maybe I'm just confused like that. >_>

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]ingriam
2006-05-02 07:52 pm UTC (link)
No, you're just cool like that. *grin* I'd enjoy seeing something like that.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]raleighj
2004-11-26 05:34 pm UTC (link)
The scariest thing about a villain is the, “There but for the grace of gods” aspect. The reader should remember that the hero could have become this kind of person, and, if the author’s really good, she’ll see herself in the villain, too.

This is one of the reasons that I loved the production of Phaedra I saw recently (the retelling by Jean Racine). One could say that Ismene and Phaedra are the “villains” of the story – they accuse and frame Hippolytus, which result in him getting killed by the end. But Racine makes you realize that it’s not so wonderfully simple – Phaedra’s being driven half-mad by the gods; Ismene is desperately frightened for the safety of her mistress, and willing to do anything to keep Phaedra from killing herself. Both are frightened for the survival of the kingdom, and are willing to do whatever is necessary to keep the royal family from falling into disgrace and ruin. You end up with the realization that they aren’t “villains” per se – they’re characters fighting in a messed up world, where sometimes the only options are bad choices and worse choices. With no pure and clear way out, it’s almost no wonder they end up choosing the wronger courses of action.

It was one of the most powerful books/plays/movies I’d seen in some time; I truly did walk away a bit shaken, wondering, “would I have held up any better than Phaedra? Advised any differently than Ismeme? Judged and divined the truth any better than Theseus?”

What I would find really interesting in a book is a character like Phaedra, who knows that they are damning themselves by their actions, but can’t see any other way out of the mess they’ve gotten themselves into. (Even the recourse of suicide gets taken away eventually – one of the most incredible scenes in the play).

I think one reason authors don’t do this more often is because the rebels are automatically assumed to be the heroes. Don’t have to be. Just because someone is in power doesn’t make him evil.

This is quite true...I’ve been rather fascinated by this phenomenon ever since reading Bunyan’s “The Holy War” in 7th grade, and being unable to wrap my mind around the idea that the “rebels” were the “bad guys.” I’m not sure whether to blame Star Wars or the American Revolution or Braveheart or just the underlying sympathy we immediately feel for the outnumbered underdog. It’s interesting, though, that the American Civil War seems to present no such difficulty to people.

Fantasy authors avoid this for a good reason. It fucks up the “clear moral base” that supposedly all fantasy depends on.

Oh man…is this ever true. I’ve gotten into some rather heated discussions with people over what the nature of fantasy fiction is supposed to be, and usually end up being the only one arguing for something broader than the "clear moral base" view. What’s perhaps most discouraging is a general inability to see growing breadth, depth, and potential of the fantasy genre – the fact that can now encompass a vast array of styles and stories, and serve a number of purposes. Everything from black/white fables that function as a kind of poetic allegory, to “troublesome” stories set in worlds that are just as messed up and morally unclear as our own.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]worldserpent
2004-11-27 11:53 am UTC (link)
Oh man…is this ever true. I’ve gotten into some rather heated discussions with people over what the nature of fantasy fiction is supposed to be, and usually end up being the only one arguing for something broader than the "clear moral base" view. What’s perhaps most discouraging is a general inability to see growing breadth, depth, and potential of the fantasy genre – the fact that can now encompass a vast array of styles and stories, and serve a number of purposes. Everything from black/white fables that function as a kind of poetic allegory, to “troublesome” stories set in worlds that are just as messed up and morally unclear as our own.

Exactly. I've gotten into this exact discussion with people who feel that fantasy must have a clear morality with other commenters. People just tend to feel that all fantasy=epic heroic traditional fantasy. Not that this is bad, but I just feel irritated when people insist that this is the *only* thing fantasy can be, because that's such an arbitrary limitation of the genre.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Bravo on your post!
[info]saadiira
2004-11-27 01:05 am UTC (link)
Quite agreed, the darklord is overdone as such. I've always hated villains who at least lacked some saving grace or other. They are boring.

"Villains" who worked, or stories from the other point of view...hmm.

I can think of a movie example right off. Excalibur. Always thought that Morgana got the short end of the stick there. Sure, she did evil nasties, but look what got done to her, and why she did 'em. Mom raped. Dad murdered. All for the whims of Merlin's man of the hour. No wonder she went after her half brother with such a vengeance. This is the kind of thing that could so easily be taken from the other point of view.

I read Grunts. It was good, as I recall.

My brain is pretty fried at the moment, and I'll probably think of more and better later, but about the only other thing coming to mind at the moment was something based off a classic novel. Wide Sargasso Sea...written from the POV of the crazy woman (Rather villified) in one of those things they made me read about twenty years ago. I THINK it was Jayne Eyre. lol.

(Reply to this)


[info]tainted4life
2004-11-27 08:56 am UTC (link)
Heehee. My "hero" IS a Dark Lord! He's convinced that his soul belongs to the God of Sin. He sees the world in Black and White, and he is Black. Always. According to his twisted, dysfunctional worldview, he could go around doing good deeds for the rest of his days, and he would still be a Bad Evil Demon. So he does horribly vicious and cruel things-- he might as well, eh?

Except he's not a lord, 'cos it's urban fantasy.

(Reply to this)


[info]sythyry
2004-11-29 09:09 am UTC (link)
Nethry:
(1,2) Nethry is the antagonist because of her loyalty to her home city: a loyalty which justifies a great deal of manipulation, though it stops short of murdering her in-laws.

(3) My readers seem to think Nethry is a protagonist. Sauron never had that problem.

(4) Nethry doesn't have a stronghold; she doesn't even spend much time in her home town. For the second half of the book, she's travelling with the protagonists. (see 'manipulation')

(5) She's not arrogant or insane or anything.

(6) World Tree does not have Good and Evil. There are major moral dilemmas (and Nethry is on the standard-leftish-American-reader's right side of at least one big one.)

Lleollelsss is the protagonist of her novel, but everyone in the novel (including her) thinks she's the villian.

(1) She's a monster: a dragon with fearsome magic, one of the (few) members of a species of monster created by a nasty goddess. She and her kind are inhumanly cruel, which is a survival trait. She tortures one person by giving him a dozen new eyes that weep caustic milk, which is original at least. She's generally comfortable with those parts of herself. She's rapacious, which she resents. Even when she's entirely helpful to non-monsters, she causes them long-term harm (according to them, at least).

(2) She's a pretty sympathetic character, according to my readers. Her goals are small and personal; she'd be much happier if she weren't such a monster. (Her rapacious nature interferes with her goals.) She is powerful and monsterous, but young and naive and easily manipulated by the sophisticated non-monster people around her.

(3) I hope she's interesting. I think so.

(4) No stronghold. Well, she builds a big house of sorts by the end of the book, as part of settling down. It's not in a Mordor, though. It's in a border province where she was tricked into settling -- to serve as a buffer state.

(5) She's occasionally arrogant -- she thinks that lesser monsters and most people can't hurt her, and she's right. She's properly cautious of her (few) peers among monsters and people both. She's generally pretty sane.

(6) Still no Good and Evil on the World Tree. Lleollelsss is an exemplar of a big moral dilemma, though.

(Reply to this)


[info]kaymera_muse
2005-10-21 10:17 am UTC (link)
I think in reagind this rant my hero and my anti-hero may just have switched around.

My brain is not quite sure how to cope with that.

(Reply to this)


Page 1 of 2
<<[1] [2] >>

Create an Account
Forgot your login or password?
Login w/ OpenID
English • Español • Deutsch • Русский…