Limyaael ([info]limyaael) wrote,
@ 2004-12-04 17:47:00
Previous Entry  Add to memories!  Tell a Friend!  Next Entry
Current mood: For the love of gods, WHY?

Rant on slippery-slope plotting.
I’m taking this term from the slippery slope fallacy. Briefly (if you don’t want to click the link, which has several examples) it involves making an argument of the form, “If this event happens, then that event will happen,” which conflates a whole bunch of small steps into one huge one. Usually, the second result is extreme, and the author does not bother to provide any evidence to show that the second event would actually follow on the first one.



1) People will suspect me! Because of Badly Explained Event X! This is the kind of thing that’s used to get fantasy protagonists up and moving out of the small villages that spawn so damn many of them. In cases where the villain doesn’t come and kill the protagonist’s parents/uncles/siblings/lover/dog/pond scum, something happens that the protagonist fears she will be blamed for. Thus she takes off into the night without bothering to find out if the angry mob is storming her house.

Um, author? Just why, if a random fire happens out of the blue, would anyone suspect that the protagonist had caused it with her OMG forbidden! magical powers?

Really, do some fucking thinking here. In a fantasy world where the greatest threat is a Dark Lord hovering on the horizon and the villagers are really suspicious for that reason, I would expect them to question or deny entrance to strangers, jump at every mysterious happening, tell wild tales of ghosts and black riders in the shadows, and be sure that perfectly ordinary events which don’t go well are the work of the Dark Lord. That’s all fine. But why in the name of heaven would they suspect that one perfectly ordinary young woman in their village, or even one who’s bullied and tormented—and isn’t that the natural state of a fantasy protagonist?—was the cause of the fire or the lightning storm?

It gets even weirder when the protagonist has made sure to keep her powers secret. So, no one suspects her. That’s fine. That’s dandy. That’s even smarter than 80.6% of naïve fantasy heroines are. I suggest she keeps it up. But why, why, why would the village then turn against her, if they have no reason at all to think she’s different from them?

If anything, fantasy protagonists in this situation would make people more suspicious, not less, by running. Make some of them do something besides panic, or else explain the connection of the event and the instant suspicion of the people around her. For example, if this woman takes strangers into her house, grins at the mysterious happenings, has been seen consorting with the ghosts or the black riders, or is known to have magic, I could see people getting suspicious of her. Doesn’t explain why they didn’t turn her out already, of course. But one can’t have everything.

2) The evil is hunting me! Because of No Reason! I know that you thought no example could possibly be sillier than the first one. I am sadly, sadly horrified to tell you that you were wrong. Sometimes the protagonists take off on a world-trotting quest, hunted by evil demons, evil monsters, evil leathery-winged dragons, evil nobles, evil wizards, evil beings from the Seventh Dimension…

And we don’t know why. Or else the connection makes no sense in fucking hell.

Yes, I know it’s a time-honored tradition to keep your protagonists in the dark while the wizard rushes them around, because somehow the wizard just doesn’t have time to tell them the truth, even when they’re doing nothing but jogging through the countryside for hours on end. You know what? Time-honored traditions are sometimes worth honoring, and other times worth shooting in the head and leaving for wild dogs to eat, and this is one of the latter.

For me, the story loses a large part of its momentum and interest if I can’t figure out why in the world the villain wants to hunt these characters, especially when said characters are young, innocent, and powerless or seemingly so (which is the vast majority of fantasy characters hunted by villains). The explanation that they could be a threat someday, and the villain knows it, doesn’t measure up. If he always had a prophecy or scrying mirror or whatever plot device it is this time that tells him the protagonist will be a threat, why didn’t he go and eliminate them as a baby? If the prophecy is mysterious and he only just figured it out, why are the people who save the protagonist and rush out of town with her always in the nick of time? If the place where the protagonist was hidden is obviously open and chancy, why the fuck didn’t the good guys do a better job of protecting her? And why don’t they tell this hideously frightened young person whose life they’ve just changed completely the truth as soon as possible, or at least a comforting lie, instead of sneering at her and charging on? I tell you, fantasy villains are fucking stupid more often than the good guy secondary characters, but good guy stupidity is much, much deeper and broader. And most of them are no good with children or teenagers.

“But wait!” you are saying. “I’ve read plenty of fantasy books where the wizard or the guard or whoever does eventually tell the hero or heroine why the Dark Lord wants them!”

Yes, eventually. After hundreds and hundreds of pages. And then, you know what? That often makes no fucking sense, either.

Why is the Dark Lord afraid of a teenager who might someday destroy him, as opposed to this older wizard who can already rip up mountains with his magic? Why does the Dark Lord not take the magical object he wants so badly away, and just kill this annoying little girl trying to use it against him? (I know, he probably can’t touch it. Then why does he want it?) Why does he go charging in the moment he figures out the protagonist’s location, instead of sending his minions dressed as ragtag gypsies to lure her away? With the amount of teenage girls stuck in random villages and longing for adventure, that last part should be easy.

Please consider why this hunt is going on at all. If the villain really can’t hurt the protagonist, he should be doing something else. If he has powerful enemies opposing him, let him take care of them first. If the wizard has to conceal the secret of the protagonist’s birth or powers for hundreds of pages, there had better be a damn good reason, or I will hunt you down. And trust me, that hunt has a good objective.

3) People will die for me! Because the Author Said So! I’ve ranted before on various aspects of the hero’s relationship to secondary characters, but for sheer irritation value, there is little worse than the instant and complete loyalty said secondary characters hand to the protagonist the moment they meet him or her. Most of the time, they don’t even have to know that much. They hear “last descendant of the Royal Line of Kehehrjehehe” and they’re bowing and swearing their lives away before the reader can figure out how to pronounce that stupid name.

Lots of people say things they don’t mean. Lots of people are devoted to ideals in principle, but would faint away if ever asked to actually put them into practice. Still other people demand proof of someone’s character before accepting that she’s their natural leader. Then there are the characters who won’t want to be pulled away from comfortable homes, and the ones who couldn’t be the heroine’s loyal servants because of the way the author portrays them, and, and, and…

You see the problem. Having every (good) secondary character bow in awe to the heroine is a matter of author’s convenience, not good portrayal. At its very best, it reduces the characters all to the same stereotype of noble, selfless, blind faithful follower who will probably end up dying on the battlefield so the heroine can shed a few sparkling tears. At its worst, the characters might have excellent reasons not to go haring off on this mad quest, but they go, because…

Because…

Look, it’s because the fantasy author doesn’t want to do any damn work! Did you have to make me say it aloud?

Show me why. Show me why these people are willing to sacrifice their lives—not only literally being alive, but the chance to stay with their families and make a living—to follow her. A long-ago oath sworn to royal blood can sound impressive, but when the time comes for its fulfillment, why does no one ever think that it means jack shit next to the chance to love and serve the people they’ve known all their years?

This is a place where authors actually pass up an excellent opportunity. The heroine’s natural followers are those who know her already, from her village or city or town, and can make judgments based on friendship or love. But for some reason, they rarely follow her. I think the author wants me to gasp at the way total strangers give everything up for adoration of some slip of a girl. All it convinces me is that the author doesn’t want to dig into these peoples’ souls. They’re just there to be marks on a page, not the awesome beacon of shining splendor that is the Heroine.

For her to deserve that capital H, I have to know why she deserves it.

4) These tricks work! Because the author is an asshole! There’s always the scene where the author has to pretend the heroine is clever and talented. So she does something based on a trick that she knows, or she sings, or she dances, or she tells the story of her life, and by the end everyone is thinking she has magic, or has been soothed to sleep, or has been won to her side, or is tearing up.

It reminds me of nothing so much as the scene in King Solomon’s Mines where the “advanced” white Englishmen trick the “simple” natives into thinking they’re gods by the means of eyeglasses and the color of their skin. It gets even worse when the fantasy heroine is performing these tricks in front a crowd of people of a different class, race, or species. It was one of the few things that drove me absolutely batshit about the otherwise enjoyable Kushiel’s Dart by Jacqueline Carey. Phèdre, the heroine, manages to listen in on her captors’ private conversations, impress everybody with her singing, free her fellow captive, and sneak out of the camp by stratagems that would be fine—except that her captors are always, always being compared to the D’Angelines, the people Phèdre is from, and being found wanting in beauty, in intelligence, in skill. At one point Phèdre explicitly compares them to children, while the D’Angelines are adults. There’s no sense that this is just Phèdre’s perception. The D’Angelines are objectively more beautiful and smarter and more civilized, and Phèdre is the most excellent out of all of them.

Pah.

Listen, authors. Not only does this make you sound stupid, it pulls the element of suspense out of your story. If the heroine only escapes because her captors are dumb, then that’s not a victory. And if the strategies don’t involve at least an element of risk, likewise. While I enjoyed Kushiel’s Dart, I felt that Phèdre was in danger exactly twice, once at the very beginning of the book and once at the very end, and neither of them came from the supposedly ferocious (but dumb!) enemies.

Show the cleverness in its own right. Make your heroine almost escape from the dungeon, and then fail. Make her get grievously wounded in the escape. Make her suffer, doubt, walk the knife’s edge. Otherwise, the author just excuses all the struggle with a wave of her hand, and suspense declines accordingly.

5) We’ve changed our minds! Because it was time for a plot turn! How many times have I seen a fantasy character change their minds on something they’d held a deeply entrenched position on for pages and pages and pages?

I don’t have a number, but I can still tell you. Too many frickin’ times!

Change, in a character, can’t be painted on. For one thing, your characters will smell bad and drip. And for another, it just isn’t convincing. Make the character who’s bitterly opposed the crazy plan to ride off to the frozen north change his mind on the dawn of the trip, and 99% of the time it won’t work, because his thought processes aren’t at all clear. He goes from the bitterest head-shaker to an equally fervent yes-man.

This is especially disappointing because there are all sorts of reasons a character might agree to something he didn’t agree to before, many of them rife with something other than that boring purity. Perhaps he wants to keep an eye on his pig-headed charge. Perhaps he counted on another character changing his mind, sees he won’t, and decided to go with him. Perhaps he plans to betray everyone involved. Perhaps someone’s told him that his family once had extensive property in the north, and he wants to get an eyeful. But, of course, he’s probably not the hero, and if he isn’t, then the author doesn’t explore his motives, because why would they be important????? (See point 3).

Character changes have to make sense in accordance with everything—not only what the author wants the story to do at a particular point, but with what comes before. Ignore it, and you are asking for a beating. From me, if no one else.



Is it really that hard for people to make sense?




(Post a new comment)


[info]cygna_hime
2004-12-04 03:45 pm UTC (link)
Is it really that hard for people to make sense?

Yes. Because that requires thinking and planning out a plot, or even (gods forbid) character continuity, all of which get in the way of the author's loving description of Crystialanalynne Emeraldraven III's sapphirine orbs, scarlet tresses, and curves in all the right places. In other words, might cause good writing.

1) People will often panic if they think they might be suspected. Even if there's no factual reason. However, the Hero(ine) who panics like this is no longer allowed to be brave, thank you. The world of writing needs more Rincewinds.

2) There are reasons, too, for why the Generic Mentor might not be able to say anything for a few chapters. They might suspect the hero(ine) or one of the comrades of being a spy--just not the obvious one, please. The enemy might be summoned instantly through the speaking of their name or the utterance of a key word or phrase. The Mentor might have been bespelled so as to be unable to convey a certain subject. There. Three, off the top of my head. But does anyone use things like that? No. I'll join that well-objectived hunt, please.

3) I will grant each character the following: 1(one) group religious/political/whatever fanatics, willing to die for her cause or symbol. 2(two) individuals, ditto. 1(one) doting and reckless family member. No more than 2(two) devoted love interests. After that, I doubt it. If she's paying the mercenary a really good wage, maybe. But they need at least one additional motivation. Characters aren't really as suicidal as the authors think. Not that I'm one to talk, having done something of the sort to a character only last week. But it was his idea, so it doesn't count!

4) Please. Crystal-whatever can fool a big crowd of common soldiers, if she stands in front of a fire and really plays up the drama and mystery (not hard for her type). Maybe she can fool one or two of the stupider officers. But not all of them. A good number of the higher-ups and, famously, NCOs will have used every trick in the book themselves. The dear heroine has no chance. Groups, though, are comparatively simple. I'll believe in a group or three (because if one, then probably more).

5) Very true. I refuse to buy a major character change without some key conversations and detailed development. I should see it coming--there should be some hint that the character is beginning to care more about X's opinion, or that Y is becoming their primary goal. No random switches. Is bad.

The whole 'I will do this! Because I feel like it!' only works if a lot of work has gone into showing how the character in question really will do something life-changing on a whim. But if that's the case, have fun bouncing from one adventure to another on the same whim! (Hmmm...plot idea)

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]limyaael
2004-12-04 09:01 pm UTC (link)
1) My problem isn't so much with the panic, but with the villagers suspecting them of something THERE'S NO PROOF THAT THEY DID. Also, I am really, really tired of heroines whose first instinctive reaction is panic. I would like to see someone capable of thinking for once.

2) But why does he never say anything else? Why not just tell them a comforting lie? It could be explained later. I don't understand why the Generic Mentors leave the protagonists to terror and panic, being completely silent.

3) It really depends more on the character him- or herself, I think. I've read people I could see giving up their lives like that. But some peasant who watches the heroine pet a goat or something has no reason to give up his life for solely because of that.

4) The incidents I mentioned with Phèdre involve her fooling everybody- ordinary soldiers, ordinary women, supposedly crafty leaders, and finally the general of her enemies himself. She keeps going on about how smart the leaders are, then turns around on the next page and says they're like children. I don't understand the author's choices at all there.

5) I've handled random characters before. They're great fun...as long as the author remembers that they should be as likely to do something for the plot's disadvantage as advantage.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]ciaan
2004-12-05 08:52 am UTC (link)
Yeah, I'd say if the heroine panics based on no facts in chapter one, she is required to go on being paranoiac all throughout the book, and almost ruin her chances to win her quest by paniccing at a key moment for no good reason and messing everything up.

And if the villagers really do suspect her... well, they would only do so if they had a reason, even if that reason was just some jealous little twit saying she did it (see for example: Salem witch trials).

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(Deleted post)

(Deleted post)

[info]tavalya_ra
2006-10-14 05:17 pm UTC (link)
Limyaael, I realize this is an odd request, but can you delete or screen this comment for me? Thanks!

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]limyaael
2006-10-16 03:06 pm UTC (link)
Sure, no problem.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]tiferet
2004-12-05 12:51 am UTC (link)
I couldn't figure out why the hell Phedre had to go on all those adventures to less civilised lands in the first place, and it was really annoying. It felt like: "Look!!! Look!!! Look how many historical cultures I can warp out of time and space and throw together on the same planet, because, you know, it's not like there's any historical relationships between them that would prevent 17th century France from being 17th century France if we're just now getting around to having Vikings!"

I liked the second book much better.

But the whole business of having all of the Jews worship Jesus is personally irritating.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]undeadgoat
2004-12-05 03:45 pm UTC (link)
Right, I've been seeing you around everywhere for months, using that icon, and I must ask -- does it mean anything, or is it just pure randomness?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]tiferet
2004-12-05 03:51 pm UTC (link)
[info]malafede started the Slytherin Revolution and we all have icons using this base.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]undeadgoat
2004-12-05 03:57 pm UTC (link)
So the text is your title, then?

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]limyaael
2004-12-05 08:35 pm UTC (link)
I took it as so much historical fantasy (rather than alternative history) that that didn't bother me. But I'm currently rereading the second book, and while I like it that she's toned down the description- a little- and I like the settings this time around better than Skaldia, I'm still at a loss to account for some of the plotting. The whole scenes with the dress-maker, for example, seemed designed only to prove that anyone who disliked Phèdre was just idiotic, and she would go out of her way to benefit them instead.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]alex_von_cercek
2004-12-05 02:30 am UTC (link)
Whoooooo. Now this is a heavy one, limyaael. You are, of course, correct as always on all counts.

PART ONE

1. Could be done, but you'd have to have the Heroine suspect of other things way before that. So that it comes natural to them to attribute the Strange Event to her, since they already think she's weird and a danger, and the Strange Event only proves the suspicions they already have.

On the other hand, someone who was not suspected before is quite unlikely to suddenly get suspected unless the people have a VERY good reason to suspect them, like a giant gain to be had on behalf of the heroine. Maybe the Strange Event kills off a few people she doesn't like, so it makes sense to blame her. Or maybe she gets to inherit something, so the people "follow the...gold pieces" (that's the standard fantasy monetary value, isn't it? GP. DAMN YOU, D&D! DAMN YOU TO HELL!!!) and find the heroine suspect.

Another possibility is that someone evil and smart convinces the people that she's to blame. This can be done eithe rby framing her, planting evidence, or just giving masterful speaches that build on subtle logical fallancies and circumstantial evidence and in the end form a case againt her.

If you have THAT, the Heroine has good reason to flee, as she has little wish to get pitchfork'd.

2.Why not have the Wizard Mentor be utterly clueless as to why the Ebil is chasing our heroine? It'd be easier to explain why he doesn't tell her. He simply doesn't know. He DOES know that the evil DOES want her, so the natural response is to make sure it doesn't get her.
Hell, even Gandalf initially had no clue whatsoever as to what that weird ring-thingy was. Wizards don't need to know everything. In fact, I think it'd be MUCH MORE INTERESTING for the reader to know they're as clueless as the mentor himself, and watch the mentor find out, so the discovery happens as you look.
Now preferably this discovery is so timed that we realize our heroes have been quite great fools, and are in much greater danger than they initially imagined. Probbably because they've been doing the exact wrong things/trusting the wrong people/doing exactly what the Dark One really wants them to do, that is deliver the Ring of Power directly to his doorstep.

Also, a truly great Dark One should be able to do many things at once. So not only should he be hunting down the heroine, but also subjugating kingdoms left and right, and being frighteningly GOOD at it.

3. scares me. It's because I feel this is exactly what I might end up doing.

Of course, with my love of antiheroes, my favourite would be Heroine who has a host of faithful followers due to her amazing charisma and everything, but the trick is that she really doesn't give a flying fuck for a single one of them, and is perfectly willing to sacrifice them allto get what she wants.

So the faithful followers start dying, and when she doesn't care, a few more get concerned and leave.
So she conscripts new ones.
Of course, if you like the kind of characters I like, at least a few will tag along with her BECAUSE she doesn't care.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]venusrain
2007-09-28 11:37 pm UTC (link)
GP.

Your GP, or your HP. *shot*

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]venusrain
2007-09-28 11:39 pm UTC (link)
Stupid enter button...

Yes, but GP makes for stupid puns. And cannon fodder for parody, which is what my story is. A little. I think. I've given up trying to define it.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]alex_von_cercek
2004-12-05 02:31 am UTC (link)
PART TWO

4. Damn straight!
On the dungeon bit, since I'll be using it in my story, so I've given it some thought as to how to make it...not something you hate.

If the Dark One has ANY sort of idea regarding the Heroine's abbilities, he'll lock her up in a specialized cell. Meaning that the extra-strong get really heavy bars and heavy doors and so on, whereas a mage would get a room witht the walls covered in arcane symbols that prevent him or her from using her magic to teleport or blast her way out.
A vampire, if vampires are known to turn into mist and so on, would get a room covered in religious symbols and garlic, and bags and bags of grain to count.
A syren would get deaf guards.
Etc, etc.

For an example, my heroine is a necromancer. She'll get locked up in a cell with custom-made spells designed to hurt her badly if she tries to cast anything, thus rendering her magicless. When she is transported around, it is done in a Hannibal Lecter kind of way. (Hey, you've established that the Dark One thinks the Heroine is the greatets threat on the planet, obviously he'll go overboard with security. Paranoia is what has kept him alive all these years, and what has doomed all his enemies).

So how does she escape? Ye olde Deus Ex Machina, of course. She will have been tempted and tempted by an evil god for a while before she's captured, and in the cell, she'll finally give in.
So she escapes despite the odds, but first, she has to promise the god something in return.

5. In books as well as in movies, the trick is to show it.
Is it so bad to show us how the person changed their mind? I mean, maybe someone else convinced them. Maybe the person doesn't want to leave because he'll live the wife and kids behind, and then the wife convinces him it's all right, or that it's his duty.
Or maybe he still thinks it's a bad idea, but he's going along anyway. Maybe it's because he wants to be there when the heroine fails so that he can say "I told you so!" or simply because he sees it's inevitable and wants to be there to make sure the Heroine doesn't fuck up as badly as she certainly wll without him.
Or maybe he thinks he can still change the heroine's mind and get her to abbandon this foolish quest before it's too late.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]alex_von_cercek
2004-12-05 02:31 am UTC (link)
Also, can I friend you, limyaael?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]limyaael
2004-12-05 08:36 pm UTC (link)
Sure, not a problem. Glad you like the rants.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]otakukeith
2004-12-05 08:04 am UTC (link)
Re: Kushiel's Dart - one other thing that really bothered me was the fact that Melisandre didn't kill Phedre when she had the chance, or at least make sure she was out of the way by more effective means than dumping her with some random barbarians. OK, she probably wanted to have lots more kinky sex with her, but she doesn't strike me as someone weak enough to let that influence her judgement. Phedre wasn't as stupid when the situation was reversed, after all (although I suppose one could argue that that's why she's the heroine, and this is Melisandre's fatal weakness).

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]tiferet
2004-12-05 03:53 pm UTC (link)
That didn't bother me as much as it normally does because Melisande Shahrizai has the hots for Phedre really, really bad, in addition to being her enemy, so even though it was stupid, it was stupid in an understandable way.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]limyaael
2004-12-05 08:37 pm UTC (link)
I could live with this. It was established early on that Melisande (and Delaunay, for that matter) wanted an audience, so I thought Melisande was leaving Phèdre alive in order to have one as much as anything else. I thought the really stupid thing was Melisande sending Phèdre her sangoire cloak in such a way as to point an arrow at where she was. She couldn't have been sure that Phèdre would dither around before figuring it out, not when Phèdre had proven herself good at figuring out mysteries before that.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]otakukeith
2004-12-06 03:33 am UTC (link)
*thinks* Was that at the very end of the book, where the sequel was set up?

I like the idea that Melisandre wanted an audience. If that was the case, though, why not keep her close in order to a) gloat to her about how great she (Melisandre) was and b) shag her?

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]tasllyn
2004-12-06 02:37 pm UTC (link)
It reminds me of nothing so much as the scene in King Solomon’s Mines where the “advanced” white Englishmen trick the “simple” natives into thinking they’re gods by the means of eyeglasses and the color of their skin. It gets even worse when the fantasy heroine is performing these tricks in front a crowd of people of a different class, race, or species. It was one of the few things that drove me absolutely batshit about the otherwise enjoyable Kushiel’s Dart by Jacqueline Carey. Phèdre, the heroine, manages to listen in on her captors’ private conversations, impress everybody with her singing, free her fellow captive, and sneak out of the camp by stratagems that would be fine—except that her captors are always, always being compared to the D’Angelines, the people Phèdre is from, and being found wanting in beauty, in intelligence, in skill. At one point Phèdre explicitly compares them to children, while the D’Angelines are adults. There’s no sense that this is just Phèdre’s perception. The D’Angelines are objectively more beautiful and smarter and more civilized, and Phèdre is the most excellent out of all of them.

i know this isn't what you were trying to say, but it reminds me of a scene from 10th kingdom.
(somwehat paraphrased because i don't feel like going through the dvd right now)
Anthony: (holding a gold rolex watch)see this here? this is a magical device from another world. it tells the time.
Toothfairy: (opening a cabinet full of 'em) we call them watches.
Anthony: (a bit disconcerted) oh, but this is a rolex! solid gold!
Toothfairy: (bites the watch)well, as long as it isn't one of those chaep imitations...

(Reply to this)


Create an Account
Forgot your login or password?
Login w/ OpenID
English • Español • Deutsch • Русский…