Limyaael ([info]limyaael) wrote,
@ 2004-12-15 20:16:00
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Current mood: content

Feral child rant
Finally, another rant.



I think writers usually have orphaned children growing up among animals because they see it as an easy “excuse” for the child being able to talk to animals or have animal friends or whatever. The problem comes when you sit down and really begin to look at that plotline.

1) Why was the child abandoned at all? The motive of exposure, of wanting to kill the child without actually bloodying one’s own hands, is the oldest and, I think, still the best. The others usually fail one test of plausibility or another.

-If the family really doesn’t wish to expose the child and wants it to survive, abandoning it on the doorstep of another family would be the best option. Parents who are dim-witted enough to think an infant would have a high chance of living by itself in the wilderness deserve to be killed by the Dark Lord.
-If the Dark Lord’s servants want it dead, why not just kill it themselves? Usually, they’re not represented as the kind of people who would scruple to murder a child.
-Parents killed as they flee into the wilderness by the Dark Lord’s servants might have a chance to abandon the baby in a thick clump of brush, but there’s absolutely no guarantee that the baby won’t scream and reveal itself. In fact, if the baby has been ripped out of a sound sleep, or thrown from a dying mother’s arms, it’s rather more likely than not. If the child is older and its mother has told it to keep quiet, then this plotline would have a much better chance of succeeding.
-The forces of light coming too late to save the parents but soon enough to kill the bad guys—and then just leaving the baby that was the cause of the Dark Lord’s servants searching the family out in the first place? Those are some damn dumb good guys, there. I would think they would at least look around, and not a casual or quick glance, either. Only if the mother really had managed to hide the baby in a good hiding place and the child kept quiet for hours for whatever reason would it work.

Of course, as I noted above, the problem could be solved easily enough by having an older child instead of a baby. And that solves some other problems, too.

2) There is a limited window of language—and it slams shut quickly. If you want a feral child who has a functional chance of coming back into society, I would say that she needs to be at least five, six, or seven before the wolves adopt her. There have been real-life cases of children reared from infancy by wolves, gazelles, and other animals, but they have enormous problems. The deepest and most basic of these have to do with language.

Children will learn languages quickly, as long as they are children and get encouragement from other people. By the time they’re ten, children’s ability to learn a second language has already begun to decline. By the time they’re teenagers, which is the age at which most feral children were discovered, it’s an uphill struggle to alter anything about their speech.

Now, imagine a child whose only companions have been wolves from the time she was a month or even a year old. She hasn’t heard adults around her speaking words and explaining abstract concepts. She hasn’t had other children to babble with. She hasn’t had a single word of human language except maybe from a distance, and now she’s sixteen.

She will never become a fully functioning adult human being. It’s too late. Some feral children have learned to speak, but it’s the same kind of struggle that it takes to learn a second language—and with a second language, at least most people have recourse to their first tongue, to compare it to. This child will have nothing. Yes, thought can take place without words, but it will be almost completely image- or concept-bound. She won’t be able to explain herself at first. She can learn only by long and patient instruction, and if the people around her don’t have that time to give, her chances of learning are in the shithole.

Most fantasy authors seem to prefer the idea of abandoned babies as orphans in the wilderness because, oooh, so dramatic, they don’t remember their parents then. However, such is the way to produce a true feral child. A child abandoned around the age of five or higher will have a much better chance of becoming “human” again. And even if you’re going to cheat with the psychology, it’s a puzzle how a girl who’s never spoken to anyone but wolves comes back into the human world speaking aloud.

3) Feral children lack the most basic social skills. This is only a partial list of the concepts that most human children don’t need to think about, since they’re reared from childhood understanding them, but which a feral child abandoned as a baby would have no grasp of:

-clothing.
-facial expressions and the meanings behind them.
-the complex and multiple reasons behind emotions (it would be almost impossible to make her understand, without language, whether a person was angry at her for breaking a vase, or angry with someone else and taking it out on her).
-art.
-buildings and how to get around in them.
-lying.
-math/numbers/means of counting and keeping track of time that relied on precise numbering.
-manners, including table manners.
-silverware.
-bathing.
-normal human daily routines (a child raised by wolves might well be partly nocturnal).
-means of creating light.
-politics.
-how to cook/prepare food.
-human ways of tending wounds.
-promises.
-notions of family, blood kinship, or inheritance (how are you really going to make the little feral princess understand that she’s the ruler of a country?)
-history.
-symbolic notions attached to colors, phrases, clothing, certain places, other animals.
-sexual mores.
-human ways of doing magic.
-crimes.
-“taboos” (for example, murder, cannibalism, incest).

And almost everything else you can think of.

A feral princess would be a disastrous ruler of a country if she was abandoned as an infant. She just wouldn’t be able to do it.

4) Reintegration into society would not be quick or easy. Perhaps you do have a child in a plotline you can work with. The child learned to speak and some basic notions like clothing and family before she ran away or was abandoned, and though she’s been reared by wolves for the past seven years, she had seven years of human socialization before that. So she has to play a key role in the plot, perhaps as the sole possessor of a particular kind of magic, and they have three days to get her ready.

Not enough. Not near enough.

For one thing, even though the child will have learned language and so on, that doesn’t mean that it simply comes back to her like that the moment another human being talks to her. If she’s been snatched from the wilderness, then she’s probably angry and frightened, more ready to lash out than to listen. It’ll take some time to calm her down and rekindle the memories.

For another, children can learn fairly complicated things without learning the “why” behind them. “You’ll understand when you’re older” might be a cliché, but it does hold true for quite a few things. So this little girl might have learned how to use her magic, a bit, as a child, but that doesn’t mean that she’ll necessarily understand what it means that she’s the only one in the world with it now, or why she should care about these people who want her to use it (especially if they took her away from the place that’s been her home for the last seven years), or that she’ll even realize what it means that perhaps the enemy they need her to defeat killed her parents or whatever. Explanations are needed to build trust, but before the “rescuers” can even give them, they’ll need to lay all the groundwork, all the “whys.”

For another, this will be a little girl who hasn’t had to hide her emotions or regulate her behavior to some human standard for the past seven years. She wouldn’t hide her anger, her disgust, her fear, or anything else. If someone tried to put a gown on her, she’d probably take it off. If someone told her not to do something, she might do it anyway. So her sitting quiet and calm and agreeing it would be a horrible thing if the world was destroyed is not an inevitable result when the explanations do come.

Months would be a more realistic timeline for a plot to have the girl return to society. Years would be even better.

5) Telepathy or magic is not a catch-all answer. Perhaps the writer looks at the chances she takes abandoning a child in the wilderness as a baby, frowns, and then says, “Well, these wolves are telepathic wolves. That means they can teach her about magic and humans and families and other things!”

Question for the supposed genius in the corner: Why would contact with lupine minds make her more human? She might well learn to use telepathy, but still, how would she learn to speak aloud? If the telepathy is conducted in images, which is the usual recourse with animal telepathy in fantasy books, she might develop very sophisticated mental imagery, but still not know what it means when a human talks about “family” to her. And why wouldn’t lupine notions of family be different from human ones?

For that matter, magic-using wolves living in the wilderness is not an answer, either. Once again, they might teach her to use their magic, but that doesn’t mean it’s automatically magic that humans would consider useful. Imagine a feral child returning who knows spells to kill the weakest deer in a herd, but not to kill a strong human opponent. It’s more likely than her just happening to have the power to destroy an army. What use would wolves have for such a power?

6) Why does being raised among one group of animals give her the power to command all animals, or even all of that species? Let’s return to the girl who spent seven years with her family and seven years in the wilderness, among wolves. Now she’s returned. She was living with a pack in a wooded valley, and her captors transport her a hundred miles, to a castle near a wood where another pack lives.

Why is she able to control that pack, summon them, and boss them around? Why would they care about her? She’s not their abandoned human infant.

This returns to the question I asked in the previous nature rant about why all animals of a particular species start drooling and following the heroine around. So someone’s killing wolves. If they’re not harming that particular pack, why does that particular pack care? So someone’s hunting leopards. Leopards are usually solitary; why does the one in this territory care if leopards are dying a thousand miles away? And why do they follow a human girl who wasn’t raised among them, whom they have no connection of familiarity or emotion to?

Animals don’t have the species-wide recognition that humans do. They do struggle against each other in mating season, fight against each other, kill each other on occasion. One reason animals don’t have wars is because of a lack of certain instincts that humans have, and one of them is our very aggressive social instinct. Animals don’t expand into nations and conquer each other, but neither do they extend helping paws towards a wolf across the mountains who’s starving to death. And they don’t have any reason to listen to some strange human thinking at them, even if she is doing so in wolf-images. She would have to establish a trusting bond with them in return, and, if they have anything like a normal pack social structure, take over from the alpha, not just move in and take that place like it’s been waiting for her.

Feral children having a “general bond with all animals” is just lazy. The author doesn’t explain how the magic works, why strange animals would care, or why people who have spent similar lengths of time in the wilderness (like hermits, trackers, druids, and so on) don’t have it. If there was a gift that everyone could have who spent a similar amount of time in the wilderness, or if it was attached to the age at which someone came among the wolves, then it would make more sense. I’m sure you can have something that makes more sense. Go forth and make it make sense.



Think I know which rant I want to do next, but I’m not sure. I’ll consider it.




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[info]marinarusalka
2004-12-15 05:26 pm UTC (link)
I agree with pretty much all the points in the rant, but I find myself wondering -- is there actually a large number of fantasies with children-raised-by-animals that I managed to miss somehow? 'Cause I've been reading fantasy for about twenty-five years now, and aside from Mowgli and Tarzan, I really can't think of anyone. Is this a recent phenomenon? Or have I just been incredibly lucky in my reading choices?

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[info]holyschist
2004-12-15 08:08 pm UTC (link)
Yeah, that's my questions.

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[info]raincrystal
2004-12-15 08:51 pm UTC (link)
Same here... though I have to say, now, that feral-princess-done-right sounds like a really intriguing plot idea.

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[info]oloriel
2004-12-15 11:56 pm UTC (link)
There are some real-life cases - Caspar Hauser, for example, and I think there were cases in India and France as well, though I can't remember any names. From these cases, one has gained much of the knowledge about the difficulty in learning speach and such...

but in fantasy? Hm, the only others I can think of would be the classic examples of Romulus and Remus - and they were found by humans in their infancy, so they grew up in a human environment...

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[info]shanra
2004-12-16 05:39 am UTC (link)
Is this a recent phenomenon?

It depends on whether you count mythology as fantasy. ;) Romulus and Remus were raised by a she-wolf, for example. And in Sumerian mythology you have Enkidu, who was said to have lived amongst gazelle.

The whole notion that children raised by animals could reintegrate with human society probably at least partially derives from myths like these.

http://www.feralchildren.com/en/fiction.php <- several mentioned fiction books. I've never heard of any of them except the ones you already mentioned and the myths I mentioned, though.

Actually, I'd recommend that site to anyone who wants to write on the subject. ;)

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(no subject) - [info]inarticulate, 2004-12-16 08:15 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]otakukeith, 2004-12-16 11:28 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]shanra, 2004-12-17 01:32 pm UTC

[info]limyaael
2004-12-16 06:51 am UTC (link)
There's a series out pretty recently, by Jane Lindskold, and starting with the book Through Wolf's Eyes. It's about a girl reared by wolves, though it at least does start with her older. (In other ways, I think it cheats, by having the wolves talk and so on). There's also The Elvenbane, by Andre Norton and Mercedes Lackey, about a half-elven girl reared by dragons- again, cheating, since they not only speak aloud and teach her to use magic, but can change into human and elven forms to show her how to use her hands.

The feral children plots are ones I've seen mostly in amateur fantasy on FictionPress.com and so on. I read a few of them because I thought they might be good, if they tried to handle actual feral children. And then I realized that, no, they didn't.

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(no subject) - [info]lnhammer, 2004-12-16 04:54 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]lnhammer, 2004-12-16 04:55 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2004-12-16 08:10 pm UTC

[info]youraugustine
2004-12-15 05:29 pm UTC (link)
-facial expressions and the meanings behind them.

Thank you. A smile or grin would probably terrify a feral child - because it's showing teeth. Human expressions are insanely varied and nuanced - tone of voice would fall under that one, as well.

Beyond that, when the child is being rehabilitated, he or she will mimick almost exactly the actions/etc of the people she's being rehabilitated by. Probably above and beyond what a normal child would, due to the lack of ability to process the extra information.

Alot of which would be made much easier not only if people had the children be four-to-six when being lost, but also had them foud before that magical age of fifteen/sixteen that everyone loves so much.

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[info]chiyo_no_saru
2004-12-15 05:48 pm UTC (link)
Why would the child mimic the Rehabers? I believe you, I'm just curious. And that's a really, really good point about smiling - that hadn't occurred to me before.

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(no subject) - [info]youraugustine, 2004-12-15 05:53 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]chiyo_no_saru, 2004-12-15 05:57 pm UTC

[info]limyaael
2004-12-16 06:58 am UTC (link)
The level of cheating in books like The Elvenbane hurts my head. In essence, the heroine, a girl reared by dragons, would have had to have three educations in everything- including human gestures, dragon gestures, and elven gestures. Even though the dragons could change into elves and humans, I always wondered why the heroine didn't display more slip-ups when she finally "went home."

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[info]ursulav
2004-12-15 06:24 pm UTC (link)
Actually, chimps do fight wars. But you probably knew that, I just have to say it, because I'm me. *grin* And it is pretty much for the same reasons as t'other primates--they want the territory, they think they can take it, and the young males are bored. Some of the footage of those conflicts is some of the more disturbing stuff in the vast archives of disturbing anthropology footage...

Then again, Tarzan aside, I haven't seen a single modern fantasy waif raised by primates.

Another problem with feral children is that if they're abandoned as infants, many of them can't even use their hands very well--opposable thumbs evidentally require a bit of learning rather than instinct (presumably in much the same fashion that baby elephants have to learn to use their trunks.) Some of the feral children that have been rescued literally can't pick stuff up with their hands, they use their mouths, and they have difficulty manipulating objects with any dexterity because they literally don't know how to use their own hands.

They also have grossly shortened lifespans, tend to be extremely tiny due to early malnourishment, etc, etc. I can't recall reading any fantasy beyond Tarzan and Jungle Book (both that sort of charming wish-fulfillment noble savage thing, and very much a product of that era) that tried to use feral children as a plot device--certainly not in this day and age.

I obviously don't read bad enough fantasy...

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[info]lemurkat
2004-12-15 08:25 pm UTC (link)
IIRC, a book I read had a boy raised by badgers.

I think it was "Quest for the Faradawn". I didn't like it much. The boy was too civilised (then again, so were the badgers) and the plot irritated me. I won't read the rest of the series.

Kat

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(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2004-12-16 06:59 am UTC

[info]sashayaki
2004-12-15 06:26 pm UTC (link)
See, this is what I think Through Wolf's Eyes does well. The feral child is portrayed very realistically (I think, and admittedly I'm not all that critical when I'm reading). She was talking and learning to read when.. she got left in the woods (don't want to spoil that, I suppose). The girl never integrates well into society, doesn't understand humans (facial expressions at first, motives, etc.), never gets a very good grasp of the language (even in the last book she struggles a lot), she's happy to be violent to anyone who threatens her, and she realizes that she would make an awful human ruler because of all this.

The being raised by larger-and-smarter-than-normal talking wolves and other creatures may be a bit iffy, but...

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[info]limyaael
2004-12-16 07:01 am UTC (link)
Well, the talking wolves I did think was cheating, as was the wearing-clothes-and-using-human-weapons thing; it just didn't seem like something she would have much use for. Humans can survive in the cold if trained to it, and the weapon seemed to be a way to make her equal to wolves and give her an excuse to eat cooked food.

Actually, though, the book did sound interesting. But the info-dumps in the beginning, oh, the info-dumps! They dropped on me like bricks, and I came out of there still stunned.

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(no subject) - [info]sashayaki, 2004-12-16 12:23 pm UTC

[info]shaycaron
2004-12-15 07:12 pm UTC (link)
If the family really doesn’t wish to expose the child and wants it to survive, abandoning it on the doorstep of another family would be the best option.

Now I'm imagining a boy who finds out he was abandoned on his peasant family's doorstep, and he's really the son of... another peasant family from the next village over. *snicker*

There's also actually a serious what-if question in my mind now. Suppose the two species (call them human and wolf, for the sake of discussion) are both sentient, but their methods of communication are different enough that neither think of the other as sentient. A human child abandoned in wolf territory might be thought of as a pet at first, until it started to pick up on the language... Ooh, I like this one. Kinda getting "The Universe Between" vibes.

Another enjoyable rant, as usual; I've placed it on the site. Oh, and if I may, I'd like to suggest amnesia as a possible future topic.

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[info]jinnigan
2004-12-15 08:22 pm UTC (link)
Ender's Game, and Speaker of (for?) the Dead even moreso.

The language thing, I mean.

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(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2004-12-16 07:11 am UTC

[info]khukuri
2004-12-15 07:17 pm UTC (link)
Hear, hear, for everything. I have yet to see a glamorous animalkin princess with fused joints and no language. It would make a rather interesting story, I think.

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[info]damien_winter
2004-12-15 07:52 pm UTC (link)
Heh. Wonderful.

Though I'd still like to know why Ms. Special is always the Alpha of the pack. 'Cmon, they don't have decent jaws, or teeth, or even the ability to mate. What use do they have?

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[info]limyaael
2004-12-16 07:12 am UTC (link)
It's explained as superior intelligence, from what I've seen. But I don't know how setting a snare for the alpha would convince the others that she should be alpha. The connection in wolf brains from snare= captured alpha= intelligence of this human child would be hard to make.

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[info]dsgood
2004-12-15 08:20 pm UTC (link)
Note that for some people -- including me -- a lot of thinking isn't done in language. But if it's to be conveyed to other people it does have to be translated into language.

I've seen someone learn to speak, at a summer camp for handicapped kids. When he arrived, he had two gestures. Later on -- he was praised for cussing out one of the counselors.

But he understood other people's speech before that.

I can think of two situations in which a feral child would be better able to learn language than in our world. 1) Raised by birds which are given to imitating various sounds -- mockingbirds, parrots, and such. 2) Most animals are accustomed to negotiating with members of other species, and are able to convey such messages as "You probably can't climb these rocks as fast as we can. There's something slower and tastier that-a-way." She's a bit better than most at this kind of communication, and this gives her the rudiments of language.

Alternatively: The wolves could turn her over to a local werewolf family, under the mistaken belief that she's one of their kids.

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[info]ankewehner
2004-12-15 11:58 pm UTC (link)
Raised by birds which are given to imitating various sounds -- mockingbirds, parrots
That is a bizarre thought XD

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(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2004-12-16 07:13 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]tasllyn, 2004-12-16 01:44 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2004-12-16 08:09 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]klgaffney, 2004-12-16 07:14 am UTC

[info]lemurkat
2004-12-15 08:21 pm UTC (link)
Heh, this is one section where I can feel a little superior. I recently created a character that lived feral with a pack of dogs. But I did some research and remembered what I had learnt in psychology.

He ran away at around the age of 5 or 6 and joined a pack of feral dogs (this apparently is not uncommon in some countries), and he was "Rescued" some five years later. He has a strong friendship with a wolf-cub that he rescued, but no particular bond with other animals, has rather feral tendencies and although he can talk, prefers not to. He is only relatively civilised because of the dedication of the man that rescued him. And he still slips into a feral state when around certain stimuli.

And when he was found he was terribly dirty, growled instead of speaking, suffered from fleas and worms and his growth was stunted. Even now, at seventeen, he is small for his age. He also prefers to eat with his fingers and acts as though he expects someone to steal his food from him. Also, Jakob lived on the outskirts of a villge and had the occasional human interaction. However, noone could keep him confined for long and the village were pretty poor, so noone was really willing to adopt a wild-boy, although occasionally some of the more kindly women would leave food out for him. He would have heard and understood speech, even if he never really used it.

I really liked him, pity the story sunk before it flew... He barely got two-three pages "Screentime" before I gave up on it altogether. Maybe I'll write his story sometime, instead of just having it as background for another story.

Anyhow, that is "Feral" - any civilised behaviour is not - so any book that featured a child that had lived with monkeys or wolves or whatever, and had them behave perfectly normally would probably having me toss the book aside in disgust.

Of course, if they were raised by dragons, gryphons or centaurs, and such creatures were portrayed as intelligent, they could easily enough get away with it!

KAt

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[info]limyaael
2004-12-16 07:15 am UTC (link)
I did read one book that had a half-elven girl raised by dragons, The Elvenbane. But the dragons could turn into human and elven shapes to show her how to use her body, and taught her the human and elven languages, and so on. I still think she reintegrated into society too easily, given that the dragons didn't have things like money, and that most of her problems in the dragon society were caused by two dragons who were "jealous" of her. But the idea was interesting in conception, at least.

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[info]maureenlycaon
2004-12-15 08:24 pm UTC (link)
WELL PUT. *applauds* One of my favorite rants so far.

A point that's easily missed: the animals that raised Mowgli, Tarzan and even Eric John Stark of Mars weren't non-sentient animals, but thinking and talking ones that weren't in the least realistic. The animals in The Jungle Book not only talk, but have passwords for safe passage, codified laws set into verse, and so forth. The native beasts of Mercury who raised Stark also had speech and culture, as did the super-apes who raised Tarzan. These fantasy heroes grew up in conditions not much like real-life "feral children".

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[info]limyaael
2004-12-16 07:15 am UTC (link)
One thing I always appreciated about The Jungle Book was that Mowgli didn't just go into the village and get accepted by everybody there; he remained different enough that they didn't really know what to do with him.

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(no subject) - [info]maureenlycaon, 2004-12-16 09:51 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]tasllyn, 2004-12-16 01:47 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]maureenlycaon, 2004-12-16 06:08 pm UTC

[info]tasllyn
2004-12-15 09:49 pm UTC (link)
wow, another rant that turns out to be relevant to my story after i think about it for awhile! well, sort of. at least the learning language/culture bit. kind of.

laid out for your critiquing pleasure:
caerassa is educated. extremely educated for a female, for that matter, even for a noblewoman. a bit of a brat, really. anyway, she was "imprisoned" and tortured for treason against the king. no one has spoken to her while she was imprisoned, probably a few thousands of years. she has had human contact, just all of it silent or the non-silence not directed at her(well, i dunno, maybe some of the kings who raped her would have yelled at her or such). now, the current prince takes a different tactic than his ancestors did. at the moment, he's trying to teach her the current language(he's studied the old language, and he's probably learning it even better from her).
so, the questions: how long should it take before she has a working grasp of the new language? on the one hand, i really don't want them to spend years in the mountains - they'll be discovered by then, anyway and it would drag out way too long. on the other, she's going to need to be able to reintegrate herself back into society decently quickly. she's going to try to rule it. note, i said try. i was planning on having them be gone in the mountains for a few months, maybe, with a couple of episodes here and there(i hate not being able to fill up space, but there's only so much "we're hiding in the mountains and we must face the danger!" i can put into that without it getting too boring). does this sound ok? can anyone think of other problems she's going to have? (quite honestly, i can say that she's going to have problems with the new fashion among noblewomen, and possibly some with the money - not sure about that. most likely, she didn't have to deal with money before she was imprisoned, so i doubt she'll even think about it until she absolutely has to). other than that, it seems that forsyian society isn't too far different than it was when she was growing up. which now that i think about it, probably isn't true - i just haven't come across the changes yet.

i'm hoping that a month is long enough to hold limited conversation. ::sigh:: or maybe i should follow the path of landover and get her a Magical Device::cringe:: to make her understand everyone and make everyone understand her. or give her a translation spell or something. actually, that sounds more likely. thoughts?

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[info]limyaael
2004-12-16 07:24 am UTC (link)
I think you'd need longer than a month. If nothing else, she'd have trust issues, too, and trouble understanding the current shape of politics, and what history might be relevant to the present politics, and she might have no real reason to help a royal family that's held her prisoner for so long.

A magical translation device for the language wouldn't be a bad idea, but the other problems would be much less suceptible to being solved like that.

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(no subject) - [info]tasllyn, 2004-12-16 01:54 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]tasllyn, 2004-12-16 01:55 pm UTC
I liked this rant very much.
[info]saadiira
2004-12-16 12:02 am UTC (link)
The points are all valid. No idea of why, but I read up at one point on feral children, and have seen various documentaries, besides. The so-called Wolf Boy never adapted properly to human society, for all that great efforts were actually made by later care takers.

Hmm. I'm actually now finding this quite inspirational.

Just on an off note, did anyone see the article a couple of days past on Prairie Dogs and language? It appears we might not be the only species that has it, after all. However, it is somewhat limited, and involves sounds that no human could hear. Oh well. :).

-Dira-

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Re: I liked this rant very much.
[info]otakukeith
2004-12-16 02:39 am UTC (link)
If I remember correctly, dolphins have language, and possibly whales too.

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[info]otakukeith
2004-12-16 02:39 am UTC (link)
One reason animals don’t have wars is because of a lack of certain instincts that humans have, and one of them is our very aggressive social instinct. Animals don’t expand into nations and conquer each other

Except social insects. Social insects are cool. I want to see a pixie child raised by ants (or a human child raised by giant ants).

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[info]castiron
2004-12-16 07:20 am UTC (link)
#2 -- I could see an interesting story with a telepathic non-verbal ex-feral kid, if the author actually wrote it using non-verbal thoughts; it'd be really hard to use the feral kid as the viewpoint character, though.

#3 -- Interesting that many of these basic things are concepts that real-world kids with autism have real problems picking up. Reading about autistic kids, as well as real-world feral kids, might be useful for getting a handle on what concepts the feral kid would have trouble grasping?

I'd like to see a rant on families in fantasy.

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[info]limyaael
2004-12-16 07:26 am UTC (link)
2- Perhaps if the author had the thoughts "translated" through a speaking human's mind, that could work. I agree it would be very hard to write a feral viewpoint character, though.

3- I hadn't thought of that, but then, I don't know much about autism. Yes, if someone wanted to understand what trouble a feral child might have fitting in, that wouldn't be a bad idea.

Ah, good idea. That will go in the poll I'm putting up in a moment.

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(no subject) - [info]londonkds, 2005-01-07 04:05 pm UTC

[info]eclective
2004-12-17 03:39 am UTC (link)
I really <3 this rant.

I'm a big fan of the feral-child idea (don't remember too many of them in fantasy - Gau in Final Fantasy 6 was one, if videogame storylines count), and I don't see why anyone would want to take a feral child and have them automatically act civilised. Surely the fun of that kind of character is to have them be feral - to show up that being human in body doesn't automatically make you civilised, that we're all essentially animals, and that our cultural norms, social mores, taboos etc. are all arbitrary constructions that we adhere to because they keep society running smoothly, but ultimately have no Great Meaning beyond that? Feral children are cats amongst pigeons - they should repel civilised humans, they should scare people on a deep psychological level because they don't care about society's trappings or gestures of deference and politeness, and they make people afraid of the fact that sometimes, they just want to forego all the pleasantries and pomp and act on instinct without care or restraint.

But maybe I'm just overly fond of animalistic traits, non-conformity, and scruffy dirty little urchins. :3

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(Anonymous)
2004-12-18 09:06 pm UTC (link)
Interesting. Again, seems a tad mammal-centric (I'm more into birds-- their social structures are more human in some ways, and less so in other ways; also, their means of communication are closer to human language than those of most mammals), but I guess it's not really practical to have animals with very non-human physiology trying to raise human infants. I do wonder at the choice of wolves-- but hey, if that's what people are writing... : /

Actually, it might be neat to write about a child raised by a flock of woodpeckers or something. Of course, such a child would probably have to be changed into the appropriate animal for this to have any plausibility, but...

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[info]fanfare
2004-12-24 02:50 pm UTC (link)
This is really good stuff, and I'm adding most of these rants into my memories for furthur refrence ^_^

I read a book once - not fantasy, but about feral children - that was really, really well done. The animal of choice was dolphins. Naturally, she can't breathe underwater, but the way the author described it was perfect. "It was like the girl had to remember to breathe, her breath was coming out in sudden pops, and the way she moved was disturbing. She spoke only in squeaks and laughing noises, like a dolphin."

That's what I remember, anyways. The girl was twelve when they rescued her, and she was very, very well done. I'll post the title of the book when I remember it. But I really liked it.

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[info]lightningkit
2007-06-13 10:31 pm UTC (link)
Hmm...I think I may have read that book. Was the girl's name Mila? And was there another feral(?) child named Shay?

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(no subject) - [info]fanfare, 2007-06-13 11:04 pm UTC

[info]enkelien
2006-09-28 04:17 am UTC (link)
I read a book once, "based on a true story," of a boy in 18th/17th century France who'd been found living in the wilderness, and yes he had all those problems and more. What you said about a limited window for language? SPOT ON. They never managed to get this boy integrated into society AT ALL. He simply hadn't learned to think like a human being. The example I can think of is where they finally get him to connect the word "knife" with the knife sitting in front of him, but he can't extend that idea to other knives, just that one. Also, human socialization? No masturbating in public. They have an extremely embarrassing time trying to stamp that one out of him. I think the book was called "Mordicai", but I could be wrong.

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