Limyaael ([info]limyaael) wrote,
@ 2004-12-20 21:27:00
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Current mood: cheerful
Entry tags:fantasy rants: autumn 2004, world-building: society

Rant on technology in fantasy
Right, this is technology in fantasy.



1) Technology is usually easier than magic. In many, many fantasy worlds, magic is represented as rare, for a variety of reasons:

-It may be an inborn talent, which is highly dependent on the individual people possessing it.
-It may have been once widely used and then destroyed, as in those fantasies where there is a fallen sorcerous empire lurking in the history. In such cases, the ‘modern’ fantasy world often has no idea how to use the magic or the artifacts it may have left behind.
-It may be very expensive because of the materials used to make it (unicorn hair, hen’s teeth, etc.) or restricted to a certain area because of those materials (such as a hedge witch’s herbs).
-It may be distrusted by peasants and other superstitious people.
-The mages themselves may be unwilling or unable to help for a variety of reasons.

Technology, applied properly, is a much less individual art. Yes, skilled wood-carvers would be relatively rare, but assembling a rough and ready table out of stumps and lengths of wood is not beyond most people. Materials can take the place of one another—stone for wood in house-building, glass for shutters in windows—without disastrous metaphysical consequences as in magic. (There may be physical consequences, certainly, such as a wooden house burning down more easily, but not the same kind of oh-no-the-world-will-end-if-I-don’t-do-this-just-right consequences that more often hang on magic). Most people can be taught to use technology, whereas the usual trend in magic is that mages have to have innate power as well as training. I really would like to see more authors write about magic that’s not linked to bloodlines and inborn talent, but I’m enough of a realist fantasist to suspect that that’s probably not going to happen.

Basically, unless you have a world saturated in easy-to-use, easily-available, inexpensive magic that everyone can use, technological solutions to problems should be more common.

2) Form follows function. Here I go with the obvious lessons again. Well, you can skip this part if you like. Or you can apply it to technological constructs driven by magic.

Imagine that a person in your fantasy world wants to get from place to place. He wants something that will move. He wants something that will carry his trade goods, let’s say lumber. He wants something that can handle mud and steep slopes. He wants a means of sheltering his lumber from the rain that will cause his wood to warp.

So he creates a cart. It can move, with the wheels rolling and oxen or donkeys or horses (or unicorns!) drawing it. It’s big and heavy enough to carry lumber. It goes through mud if the wheels don’t get struck, and it goes up and down hills thanks to the power of the animals pulling it. It has a cloth cover that can be drawn over the bed to protect against the rain and snow and other precipitation.

Does it have huge wings extending off to the side? No. Why? It doesn’t need them, and the wings would drag and slow the cart without providing enough propulsion (without some kind of external power source) to get it off the ground. Likewise, it may have lanterns hanging on it in the case of a dark or snowy night, but does it have a thousand lanterns? No. Why? It doesn’t need them, and there’s probably no place to hang them anyway.

When you’re designing new technology for your world, or deciding on the level of technology that your world needs, keep form follows function foremost in your mind, not second or fifth or last. Every part of the design needs to have some use, even if it’s only to look pretty, and such things should only be common in places where people have the money to afford the decorations and little or no need to actually use the object for its intended purpose (such as a jewel-decorated sword in the hand of a noble). Even more common are parts of the object that once had a purpose, like the abandoned wing of a building, and have been left behind or excluded as they’re not needed any longer. Don’t design useless gewgaws to add to your technology, especially not ones that would actually impair the functionality.

For machines driven by magic, keep this very sternly in mind. You might think that a skimming platform powered by magic could easily serve as a sort of flying machine, but how fast does it go? How high does it go? Does it have any kind of protection against the weather, or any way to keep its passengers from falling off? Unless the skimming platform had a dome of magic around it, the passengers would probably suffer. It would be easier, in that case, to build walls around the thing, or at least a railing, especially if the magic to create the dome would cost more and the lifting magic could lift the thing regardless of weight.

3) Consider transportation and communication. I could shorthand this one as: I wish people would pay more attention to the fucking geography.

No?

Very well, then. You’ve got a castle stuck high up in the mountains, or in the middle of a dense forest, or in the middle of a vast desert. It has silks and spices from countries half a world away, on the other side of not only the continent but a vast ocean. Its inhabitants also know the latest news, such as things that happened in those distant countries.

Well, how? Those kings would have to be some awfully rich kings to pay to have those silks and spices transported all that way. And they would have to have very good communication devices, either technological or magical, to learn the news so quickly, and not just once in a while from the traveling merchants.

I am not a big fan of building castles wherever they strike the author’s fancy anyway, but if you love your castle in the middle of nowhere, then you have to cut back on how often they receive trade goods and news. Otherwise, the kings will have to have a mighty treasury and extensive trade contacts and all the necessary magic and/or technology to keep the current news and goods coming. And if they can talk to people on the other side of the world via a magical portal, what’s to keep them from transporting food and other goods through the portal as well? It would probably be easier, no matter how much you mourn the loss of your trade caravans and bright bazaars.

4) Know what technology will change the world, and what will not—and why. Two of the most significant inventions in the history of the world were gunpowder and the printing press. The former changed the nature of weaponry and spelled the eventual doom of the armored knight. The second led to almost too many consequences to count, but included more communication in general, higher literacy rates, the easing of the way for social movements like the Protestant Reformation (if people had not been able to read Bibles, Martin Luther’s recommendations would not have gained so wide an audience), the development of science, the growth of modern media, and so on and on.

Yet these inventions occurred in China first. Why didn’t they affect the West earlier and more profoundly?

The Chinese alphabet was the problem for a Chinese printing press; it was simply too big to print easily. An alphabet of 26 letters was much easier to manipulate. And both inventions occurred in a country distant enough from most of the West that their immediate influence on Europe was not profound.

So, consider what kind of technologies you’re inventing and the impact they will have. A means of global communication might change things wonderfully—if it was relatively inexpensive, and if the people who invented it saw the need to propagate it, and if it was reliable enough, and if the country it occurred in was both open enough to other countries to make the invention known and accessible enough for the technology to spread, and if it didn’t require years and years of special training to know how to use, and if there was a lively interest, commercial or otherwise, in getting to know the rest of the world…

You see that there are immediate problems in the way of developing a world-spanning, world-changing technology. Only if they’re able to be overcome, or if the author cheats, such as giving technology the help of magic, will its impact be deep and wide-spread—and even then, it will probably be less sudden than something like the Internet, since, in a less technologically changed fantasy world, it will need more time to spread.

5) Know what other technologies must develop around your new invention to enable it. Fantasy authors are often accused (rightly) of leaving holes in their ecology and economy, even as they develop elaborate systems of magic. It’s almost as though the typical fantasist falters when asked to work with interconnected systems outside the fantasy elements. I know I am happier when I can Make Shit Up than when I have to do research.

However, if you’re going the technology route, you are much more restricted by the limits of the physical and the possible. Let’s go back to our system of global communication, and let’s assume that it’s technological instead of magical. What does it depend on?

The flight of birds? Then the people who use it must already have figured out ways to tame birds, and train them to home, and keep them alive in captivity, and adjust for messages lost to chance and storms and predators, and send messages with the birds in such a way that they won’t be blown loose. (The length of messages that birds in fantasy are sometimes asked to carry is so great that it frankly surprises me the poor things don’t have to hobble to their destinations).

Fast couriers? Then there must be fast horses, and posting stations, and clear roads, and ready sources of food for the horses, and people to take care of them, and places to draw the people from, and means of keeping the posting stations free of attack (like horse thieves wouldn’t try to hit them!), and places to get food for the employees, and the development of leather or some other relatively inexpensive material to make the tack, and the art of the farrier, and means of riding fast, and…

Electricity? Then, first of all, they have to understand what electricity is, which frankly is not common in most fantasy worlds. Then they have to have a source of it. (Say lightning, and I will laugh at you. Then I will want to know how they tame it enough to be usable). Then they have to figure out how to generate electricity from the source. Then they have to figure out how to transport the electricity to every place it’s needed, and how to channel it, and how to protect people from it, and how to contain it, and how to regulate it, and how everyone will pay for it, and how much to allow everybody, and how to make devices work on it, and, and, and…

Be prepared to do some heavy research, yes. But those books don’t weigh as much as the shame that will come and hang around your neck if you plow blindly ahead and then make a silly mistake, or worse, invent some new technology that absolutely depends on a smaller science your people haven’t developed yet.

6) If your world has no science, how did the technology get there? I’m perfectly willing to believe that a fantasy author could develop a method of creating technology that did not resemble science as practiced in some part of Earth. That is, I am willing to believe it when I fucking see it, and not before.

The moment you go wandering off into metaphysics and magic to talk about technology not actually driven by magic, there are problems. You might argue that, “Well, yes, people believe in invisible gremlins to drive their cars when there aren’t any such things, but it does no harm.” What happens when they apply this magical thinking to dealing with car trouble? If they believe gasoline is gremlin food, what happens if they decide to light some of that gasoline on fire as a sacrifice to a god to send them more gremlins? There would still be nasty consequences.

A purely magical or metaphysical system of tenets to support and create technology would depend on an incredible number of stupid coincidences and blind good luck. Besides, at some point someone would discover Occam’s Razor. Why accept some elaborate explanation of invisible magical power when someone else can explain, in clear and physical and natural terms, how this particular invention works? And why continue to persist in making technology when the magical explanation doesn’t prevent people from getting hurt or killed? Sooner or later, people would abandon the work in fear, and the technology would stall.

A lot of fantasy authors seem content to let technology into their work, even if in fairly limited fashion. Very few of them are willing to let in science. Yet, why not? Science fiction has certainly kidnapped enough from fantasy, given all those galaxy-spanning empires. Perhaps fantasy should kidnap some things back.



Next time: those pesky families, probably in a two-part post.




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[info]inarticulate
2004-12-20 06:32 pm UTC (link)
What I like about this rant is that most of these problems can be avoided in a setting where magic wasn't discovered until recently. Which happens to be what I'm writing. :D

On a more serious note, I really wish there would be more fantasy set in slightly more technologically advanced settings. I'd love to see magic and guns interacting realistically, because guns would SO be the obvious counter to magic. Mmm. I think that may be why I like well-written urban fantasy so unashamedly. And the Final Fantasy series, if we're expanding to video games.

Science fiction + fantasy = OTP!11!

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[info]limyaael
2004-12-20 06:35 pm UTC (link)
It depends on how powerful the magic is and how many people can use it, as well as how recently it was discovered, I would argue. I'm reading Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell right now, which is alternate history fantasy set during the Napoleonic Wars, and since the English magicians can move landscape around and create threatening illusions and create weather to slow cavalry charges, they're causing problems for the French within seven years of magic's return.

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(no subject) - [info]marumae, 2004-12-20 07:21 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]lemurkat, 2004-12-21 01:27 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2004-12-21 05:00 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2004-12-21 04:59 pm UTC

[info]world_wanderer
2004-12-20 09:57 pm UTC (link)
L.E. Modesitt Jr. wrote into one of his series that guns weren't used because the chaos wizards had a tendency to make them blow up on you. Sorry, can't recall the name of the world right now. Makes a good argument though.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]sparrow_wings, 2004-12-21 10:43 am UTC
Whew - [info]karenrei, 2006-02-06 09:43 pm UTC

[info]luna_manar
2004-12-20 07:00 pm UTC (link)
Hmmmm. What if you have a world in which one small section of a continent is technologically advanced, but the rest is not?

I've found this to be something of a challenge in the story I'm writing...there is a history behind the technologically advanced country, how and why it evolved differently from the rest of the world, but the difficulty I'm having is in keeping track of which technologies escape the country and work their way into other less advanced societies, and which ones remain relatively exclusive to that part of the world. There is a strict code in this country that disallows sharing of advanced technology with other societies, but since they aren't outright xenophobes and still engage in cultural trade, mistakes and smuggling do happen, and things like firearms do make it outside the country's borders from time to time--it's appealing to people because it's like magic you don't have to study to learn. Press a button and you can make things happen. Technology is instant gratification, so people like it and it's difficult to contain.

But I've had to take into account that not all technology would be practical in a more renaissance setting--you need batteries to power computers. You need plastic to make styrofoam. I've found that, in general, the technology that escapes the country is mostly of a type that does not require electricity or complex artificial materials to function. You can make a firearm out of metal and you can make it work with explosive chemicals--nothing special there, so that kind of thing is fairly prolific. Even telephone/intercom like systems don't need anything super-complex to work. But cameras? Aerisol? Aluminum foil? Computers? Automobiles? As handy as these things may be, they require advanced technology to start with in order to make or maintain, so there isn't much point in smuggling them out of the country unless you're going to put a lot of time and effort (and likely, money) into reverse-engineering them.

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[info]limyaael
2004-12-21 05:02 pm UTC (link)
I'd say it's inevitable that some of the technology will get out sooner or later. Someone will get exiled who has the necessary skills to build the complicated technology outside the isolationist country, or someone will get miffed at the government and deliberately do it to piss them off. It might be a slow trickle at first. The best thing the government could do in this situation is propaganda as well as physical barriers. Impress the costs of technology on people outside the country, and they could well decide to reject it out of fear.

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note
[info]kadaria
2004-12-20 07:01 pm UTC (link)
I'd like to add that not all technology or science is met with open arms. Especially if it goes against previous standing science or religion.
Galileo faced charges of hereasy and was reviled by the scientific community for challenging ideas laid down by the church and Aristotle (things like the Earth moves around the sun, not the sun moves around the Earth).
Imagine what the local priests would think when your scientist-heroine tells the people that God's Gremlins aren't running the cars, it's a combustion engine that almost anyone can make.
Just a thought that not everyone will react the same to new technology.

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Re: note
[info]deathglare
2004-12-20 09:48 pm UTC (link)
On the other hand, it's somewhat amusing that some people that know cars are run by a combustion engine do their damnest to spend as little time in the cliocking fireballs waiting to happen as possible.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: note - [info]kadaria, 2004-12-21 07:06 am UTC
Re: note - [info]limyaael, 2004-12-21 05:03 pm UTC

[info]worldserpent
2004-12-20 07:03 pm UTC (link)
Where do psionic powers fit in? Those are inborn also, and a staple of SFF. See X-men.
With chemistry, you can't just randomly fit in one thing vs another (isn't chemistry mostly about making rare materials?), and depending on your magical system, you are allowed to make materials easy to find.

I would say that you can plausibly argue that technology has always been used by humans, because tools are technology. Especially if magic is rare, technology necessarily must be used by humans.

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[info]deathglare
2004-12-20 08:44 pm UTC (link)
Not all psionics are inborn. There's so little of the other cases that one would seem to that that there was only one choice. There are psionics due to artifical proceedures like in the Dune series (well the spice technically can give you those powers like a guild navigator) or the Lensmen series where the Lens itself is usually the catalyst for some of them. The rarest would be the psionists that trained themselves without seemingly having. So few that it would seem like they don't exist but the very end of the Lensmen series I think the example for them are at

It's all about the potential of the mind itself and not if it's an inborn talent or not

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(no subject) - [info]worldserpent, 2004-12-21 12:32 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]deathglare, 2004-12-21 08:54 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]worldserpent, 2004-12-21 09:46 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]world_wanderer, 2004-12-20 10:00 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]worldserpent, 2004-12-21 12:35 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2004-12-21 05:06 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]deathglare, 2004-12-21 09:54 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2004-12-21 05:04 pm UTC

[info]johnnymcbadass
2004-12-20 07:03 pm UTC (link)
"If they believe gasoline is gremlin food, what happens if they decide to light some of that gasoline on fire as a sacrifice to a god to send them more gremlins"

Now that's a story waiting to happen.

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[info]tavalya_ra
2004-12-21 04:40 am UTC (link)
Agreed!

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[info]chiyo_no_saru
2004-12-20 07:27 pm UTC (link)
Messages in my world are transported by means of buvies - sort of like messenger pigeons only they have the desire of dogs to serve, are hardier, and are found in most climates due to breeding, etc. They do not, however, just go all out - there are trade off locations, they're carefully bred, and all sort sof other patterns.

Likewise, in my world, we have basic things, such as carts, oil lamps - the carts don't have wings; they have a part to carry things and wheels, along with bars to hook horses up to.

Also, the world is fairly nwell developed, and mages do trasport some
messages telepathically - not very reliably, as mages can easily change it, etc. Towns are also fairly close together.

Magic, however, is very very common in my world - something many kids can do, and it is very rare to find someone who can't do anything. So technology and magic are really quite equal; although, obviously, some things are easier than others.

The medicine is also pretty good in terms of healing magic and herbs, along with a vague understanding of how the body works - as the necromancers are indeed allowed to dissect human bodies, although the Church does make a few noises about it, they really don't care as long as they don't touch the genitals. (Rape is worse than murder in that religion.) They also do have science - research, etc.

Sorry. Long response :-)

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[info]othercat
2004-12-20 08:06 pm UTC (link)
The bit about the skimming platform reminded me of "flying carpets" in Glen Cook's Black Company books. They are flying carpets...stretched taut over a big wooden frame, and if I recall correctly, there were straps for hanging on.

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Question...?
[info]kaiz
2004-12-20 08:15 pm UTC (link)
Most people can be taught to use technology, whereas the usual trend in magic is that mages have to have innate power as well as training. I really would like to see more authors write about magic that’s not linked to bloodlines and inborn talent...

I'm real curious about this...could you elaborate a bit more?

See, I'm thinking that even with technology, people differ in their abilities to use/adapt/understand it (i.e. many people know how to use a car, but fewer know how one works or how to to repair it, and even among the people who can be taught to repair cars, some will be better than others at it because they have some innate mechanical skills.)

So, even if you have magical devices that everyone can use (say a charmed mirror or something), not everyone who 'has' magic could necessarily make one, or understand how the charm works, or repair it, etc. Right? Or am I missing something? I mean, nearly everyone can run, but not everyone can be a world class sprinter, even with training.

i think I'm having an acute lack of imagination here, but...what would magic that *didn't* have some connection to the magic-users' skills or access to training look like? Wouldn't it look pretty much like technology, where some people are more gifted than others at inventing things and marketing them to the masses?

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Re: Question...?
[info]paendragaan
2004-12-20 11:01 pm UTC (link)
I completely agree with you. My two best friends are complete computer geeks, yet I can only do the most basic things with a comp. My friends can sit down, read an instruction manual and do things on a comp that teachers I've known couldn't do.

I am also a really good reader. I can read 6 different books and keep the plotlines seperate and finish a book in a day. My bestfriends can't. That's not to say they are stupid or slow readers, I'm just naturally better at it than they are, same with them and comps.

Everyone has a natural talent for something. You could teach me about cars all day, and two days later I would have forgotten it all. That's just not one of my skills.

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Re: Question...? - [info]limyaael, 2004-12-21 05:17 pm UTC
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic - [info]angrypaladin, 2004-12-21 12:53 pm UTC
Re: Question...? - [info]limyaael, 2004-12-21 05:15 pm UTC
Re: Question...? - [info]kaiz, 2004-12-21 09:21 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]topios, 2004-12-22 12:34 pm UTC

[info]deathglare
2004-12-20 09:19 pm UTC (link)
I definately love steampunk and cyberpunk settings, not as much the risk of over exposure as one might have for epic fantasy or space opera saturation.... yet.

So how far science has progressed and what technology actually exists on it's own is the question. In a setting where learning to cast spells is not an innate thing, any body with enough smarts or determination to dabble with technology could play with magic as well.

The real difference would be that technology most of the time a device just does one thing, but once it gets going that one thing is damn good. What can be done with magic is a lot more varied, even with just one spell if someone knows what they are doing. Of course some of the simplest tools have more varied uses. Just in how many ways can a person use a knife after all? Then after your done with that, ask yourself how manys things Macguvyer could come up with. Then when you combine sorcery and science, well the device still tends to be focused more towards a tech device instead of a magical a good many of the time

The last thing I can think of is the over all view of society on the whole thing. Even in a world where magic is common those that don't posses it and don't have enough learning to understand it are going to be wary of it if they don't outright fear it. Same view can be taken of our very own world today. Dispite using so much technology, we only understand a fraction of what we actually use. It makes us wary of anything we don't fully understand. Given a bad enough mess up, they try getting rid of the offending device ande maybe a few other things they don't need. OF course commercialization puts out the fact that we shouldhave more devices setting about then we actually need sometimes. Useless stuff that have a minor use that we could just do better ourselves in other situations.

On the communication note. Given enough time for a stable system or network for the use of communication to arise, the problem that we suffer in the modern world will come up as well. The hell of constant advertisements

On could easily see how such a thing will effect the economy.

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[info]onyxflame
2006-03-05 12:46 am UTC (link)
Ahh. Mage telepathy spam. *snicker*

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(no subject) - [info]deathglare, 2006-03-05 01:49 am UTC

[info]world_wanderer
2004-12-20 10:08 pm UTC (link)
Eric Flint edited an anthology of Anvil stories recently, and Anvil included a most interesting story with the point that psi and technology are polar opposites. They went to a world where everybody was psionically capable. Now alot of these people were strong enough, that they'd unconciously effect their surroundings. One of the characters explained the scientific method, and was rebuffed, as they just knew that he was wrong, as an experiment would not produce consistant results. They would unconsiously influence the experiment to produce inconsistant results. Therefore, science didn't work. On the other hand, science would completely discredit psionics, since it seems physicaly impossible. I thought it was an interesting point. if there's enough magic in the universe, there won't be any advanced technology, and visa versa. One of them is going to be dominant. It made me think a little while, to try to figure out how to balance this out in a universe with a good bit of both.

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[info]paendragaan
2004-12-20 11:08 pm UTC (link)
The technology in my world is balanced by the fact that the world was technologically advanced in the past, but nuclear war almost wiped out humanity. But a group of scientists got togther and decided to create a group that would concentrate the technology already existing and try to continually expand on it. But they also didn't want the world at large to have access to high levels of technology because of what had happened, so they created a military arm to secretly take out people who started to get into technology they didn't want unleashed. Sort of keeping the world in a state of enforced semi primitiveness.

In response to the lack of technology, magic had to evolve. So now, thousands of years later, you have both magic and technology in the world, even if technology is mostly hidden.

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[info]jenlittlebottom
2004-12-21 12:52 am UTC (link)
I really would like to see more authors write about magic that’s not linked to bloodlines and inborn talent, but I’m enough of a realist fantasist to suspect that that’s probably not going to happen.

Heh. Any elf can learn magic, although there's obviously differing levels of natural talent, but especially if they start training young enough. Someone with a few hundred years of training behind them is always going to beat out someout with two months, even if person with two months is super!talented, because it takes a lot of focus and skill. There's a supposed blood link in that descendents of certain lines are claimed to have greater talents, but that's one of those made-up-to-keep-the-peasants-down things, like the thing about only the nobles being able to talk to the Gods.

Plus magic is not innate within elves (and humans can't use it at all), it has to be collected and stored before use. The collection part is very dangerous, so magic is expensive, and training to use it is expensive, which is the main barrier to your average Joe having it. (Using it straight from the source is possible, but far more likely to blow up in your face and not something that's been done since Nyadre the Blasphemer)

There's no major source of iron around, so they're all stuck in the Bronze Age as regards metals, although waterwheels have been around for a while and some clever elves have just discovered steam power - certainly possible with bronzes although you won't be able to go to as high temperatures and thus won't get as much power out of it. I'm sure these technological advances will go far towards improving the lives of the rich; the rest, as far as the noble classes are concerned, can go fuck themselves.

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[info]limyaael
2004-12-21 05:18 pm UTC (link)
See, this sounds like it would work. Of course, kick away the class system and have something more like a Marxist or democratic society, and it would probably change very quickly. (Not that I'm suggesting you do that).

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(no subject) - [info]jenlittlebottom, 2004-12-22 03:59 am UTC
*Rubs hands together in glee*
[info]saadiira
2004-12-21 01:11 am UTC (link)
This is a subject I really can get into. Due to having heard complaints similar to the rant for years in gaming circles, and a love for just developing worlds, I've actually put a good deal of time and thought into related subjects.

Long addendum to the rant on a subject near and dear to the heart)

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[info]damien_winter
2004-12-21 01:37 am UTC (link)
>I really would like to see more authors write about magic that’s not linked to bloodlines and inborn talent

Hah. I remember concept-storming about a way to get around the inborn magic thing. I think I came up with a race that produced no males (or females. I forget), and so it claimed members of other species (animals, humans, whatever) through a process that was basically a rape. Then the Claimed's personality got totally overhauled with complete devotion to their master. Plus they got magic to protect their master.

Yeah. It was weird.

>You’ve got a castle stuck high up in the mountains, or in the middle of a dense forest, or in the middle of a vast desert. It has silks and spices from countries half a world away, on the other side of not only the continent but a vast ocean. Its inhabitants also know the latest news, such as things that happened in those distant countries.

But more importantly than this: _How the fuck did the castle get there?_ Cities are built for a variety of reasons. Being in the middle of nowhere is not a viable reason for building a city (On a mountain, maybe. Defensive purposes... but that's a stretch). Trade routes, often are a viable reason.

And of course: _How the hell did they build the castle?_
In a mountain, you might have the raw materials, but how are you going to get the thing built? Slaves would revolt (probably. Unless you made like the Egyptians, and drugged the hell out of them at night), and no one sane would work there (especially in winter). In a forest, odds are less that there will be resources readily available, though labor would be easier to come by. Plus, if there aren't any local resources, and it's still out of the way, how are the resources getting there?

Okay, DC was built on a swamp. But that's because it was in the middle of the Confederacy.

Yeah. I get mad about city-building.
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>I really would like to see more authors write about magic that’s not linked to bloodlines and inborn talent

Hah. I remember concept-storming about a way to get around the inborn magic thing. I think I came up with a race that produced no males (or females. I forget), and so it claimed members of other species (animals, humans, whatever) through a process that was basically a rape. Then the Claimed's personality got totally overhauled with complete devotion to their master. Plus they got magic to protect their master.

Yeah. It was weird.

>You’ve got a castle stuck high up in the mountains, or in the middle of a dense forest, or in the middle of a vast desert. It has silks and spices from countries half a world away, on the other side of not only the continent but a vast ocean. Its inhabitants also know the latest news, such as things that happened in those distant countries.

But more importantly than this: _How the fuck did the castle get there?_ Cities are built for a variety of reasons. Being in the middle of nowhere is not a viable reason for building a city (On a mountain, maybe. Defensive purposes... but that's a stretch). Trade routes, often are a viable reason.

And of course: _How the hell did they build the castle?_
In a mountain, you might have the raw materials, but how are you going to get the thing built? Slaves would revolt (probably. Unless you made like the Egyptians, and drugged the hell out of them at night), and no one sane would work there (especially in winter). In a forest, odds are less that there will be resources readily available, though labor would be easier to come by. Plus, if there aren't any local resources, and it's still out of the way, how are the resources getting there?

Okay, DC was built on a swamp. But that's because it was in the middle of the Confederacy.

Yeah. I get mad about city-building. <_<

>And if they can talk to people on the other side of the world via a magical portal, what’s to keep them from transporting food and other goods through the portal as well? It would probably be easier, no matter how much you mourn the loss of your trade caravans and bright bazaars.

The only justification I can come up with here is that maybe the portal is too expensive to produce for many people. And seriously, if you're a king, are you really going to let a bunch of dirty pesants use your special magical stuff?

>(Say lightning, and I will laugh at you. Then I will want to know how they tame it enough to be usable).

Mages, maybe? Dunno, if they're all-powerful as they're often portrayed, they could be.

>Why accept some elaborate explanation of invisible magical power when someone else can explain, in clear and physical and natural terms, how this particular invention works?

It confuses the pesants, obviously. No one wants smart pesants. Smart pesants that realize they can do stuff is not conducive toward the aristocracy's survival.

Gewgaw is one of the best words ever.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]limyaael
2004-12-21 05:20 pm UTC (link)
I've asked people about how the castle was built in the first place, but they tend to wave their hands at the long-lost sorcerous empires. "It was magic that has since been lost." That still doesn't explain why they chose this place for the castle, though.

Well, if mages were taming the lightning, why wouldn't they use it for magic and not technology? ;)

It confuses the pesants, obviously. No one wants smart pesants. Smart pesants that realize they can do stuff is not conducive toward the aristocracy's survival.

Only applicable in a monarchy. Take, say, a colony situation, or a democracy, or a Marxist-like situation, and everything changes.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

A few possibilities? - [info]saadiira, 2004-12-21 09:48 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]damien_winter, 2004-12-22 06:45 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]onyxflame, 2006-03-05 12:57 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]venusrain, 2007-09-29 02:02 am UTC

[info]tavalya_ra
2004-12-21 04:35 am UTC (link)
After reading this rant, I think I'm doing pretty well. Magic isn't rare in my world and its easy to manipulate (although not everyone can cast the more complicated spells).

They have the printing press. I don't think they have gunpowder.

A means of global communication might change things wonderfully- if it was relatively inexpensive

Depends on whether or not you want visual and oral contact. That's expensive- only governments use it. Sending messages as pure words is cheap. The equipment is expensive, but that's a one-time cost (excluding repairs and recharging the magic- the expensive of repairs depends upon the extent of the damage, raw magic is cheap). Most people don't own such equipment themselves- they go to a place that does to send messages.

and if the people who invented it saw the need to propagate it, and if it was reliable enough...

Yes to these and to everything else.

(Say lightning, and I will laugh at you. Then I will want to know how they tame it enough to be usable)

Lightning is how they know electricity exists- but because that's the only source of it they know, they don't think it's good for much beyond zapping people. Raw magic is a good power source and there are enough magic-users in the world to meet demand- providing the power is exhausting, but it's easy and it's lucrative. (Magic-users have some ability to set their own price because there is no alternative power source. Prices aren't unreasonable because a magic-user is competing with his peers for the market.)

If they believe gasoline is gremlin food, what happens if they decide to light some of that gasoline on fire as a sacrifice to a god to send them more gremlins?

O_O

(Reply to this)


[info]kalorlo
2004-12-21 05:28 am UTC (link)
*bounce* I heartily recommend Ian R Macleod's The Light Ages as an example of a world where technology and magic work together. It's British industrial-era fantasy, where magic (aether) is mined out of the ground. The society has coal too, but aether is far more important. Of course, it also has drawbacks. Like pollution...

It's a really excellent book. It follows the life of a boy who grew up in an aether-mining town, sees him run away to London, get involved in a proto-Marxist uprising, and gradually discover some of the secrets about aether that the great Guilds have been keeping for years. Incredibly well done, with familiar things right next to ones that are totally fantastical.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Off Topic buuuuuuuut...
[info]marumae
2004-12-21 05:35 am UTC (link)
That icon ownz Christmas because it's so damned cool. *loves upon*

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Off Topic buuuuuuuut... - [info]kalorlo, 2004-12-21 05:39 am UTC
OMGWTFBBQ
[info]jaquiel
2004-12-21 07:44 am UTC (link)
Yay ranty!

And yeah,doing research is one of the hardest things for writing a novel, but also one of the most rewarding. I know from experience how awesome it is to read a fantasy novel and suddenly realize that the author has a clue what the fuck they're talking about.

(Reply to this)


[info]youraugustine
2004-12-22 07:36 am UTC (link)
I really would like to see more authors write about magic that’s not linked to bloodlines and inborn talent, but I’m enough of a realist fantasist to suspect that that’s probably not going to happen.

::shrug:: Human magical inclinations within the Wind of Ashes arc are pretty much as hypothetically genetically linked as technical inclinations in normal human beings - that is, there are MASSIVE arguments going on whether or not it is inborn, whether or not it's due to method of raising, or whether or not it's purely random. My personal inclination is that it is somewhat genetic, akin to eyecolour or haircolour, but my personal inclination is to say that about pretty much anything the mind does, so.

(Reply to this)


(Anonymous)
2004-12-22 01:29 pm UTC (link)
I'd just like to see fantasy worlds get out of the pseudo-medieval mindset! Less castles, more concrete bunkers. Less horse-pulled ploughs, more tractors. Less magic swords, more magic bombs...
Basically, create your pseudo-medieval world, throw in magic... and then *advance* it through the next thousand or so years of technological development. With magic intact-- it doesn't have to conflict with technology at all. It's much more interesting to see both of them coexisting; that can highlight the differences.
It might also help fantasy break away from the royalty-centric tradition. In a medieval world, the upper-classes might be the only people who get to do anything halfway interesting, but in a more advanced world, even an average person can get to go on adventures and do important things without becoming a king.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]criada
2004-12-23 02:08 am UTC (link)
I heartily agree, I like the saying about magic and sufficiently advanced science being indistinguishable. I am trying such a thing myself. It's been tough, since my stories span about a millenium or more. I have to write an entire history, and figure out what inventions inspire events, and vice versa. But I've got magic bombs. :) On a Hiroshima scale.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]deathglare, 2004-12-23 03:45 pm UTC

[info]blunder_buss
2004-12-26 05:45 am UTC (link)
I noted one thing with number 3. If this castle had 'a mighty treasury and extensive trade contacts and all the necessary magic and/or technology to keep the current news and goods coming'...

The author had better have a good reason why every other king and his dog isn't trying to take over this castle. Or at least, the world's equivilant to the Mongols/Huns/barbarians. If my memory of history serves me right, castles full of goodies had massive defenses to protect themselves from anyone who would want to plunder it. And many of them did crumble eventually.

(Reply to this)


[info]rhjunior
2005-09-11 08:00 am UTC (link)
In Tales of the Questor, "Magic" is actually the manipulation of an exotic form of energy known as Lux. Some people in each of the sapient races are born with the innate ability to sense and manipulate this energy--- the percentage of lux users in the population and their relative raw power varies from species to species (racconans having effectively a 100% magic-user population.) However, it's not just a "snap your fingers and tell the magic to do this" system. Though there are some effects any lux-gifted person can achieve, the full potential of it comes from learning the system behind it, and how it is used. And even then raw knowledge isn't enough to make a magic user powerful. It's like literacy: most everyone in a literate society knows how to write and read--- but not everyone is going to be able to take those phonics and letters and compose superlative poetry with them, or write the All-American novel.

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[info]korimyr12
2005-10-13 05:41 pm UTC (link)
"A lot of fantasy authors seem content to let technology into their work, even if in fairly limited fashion. Very few of them are willing to let in science. Yet, why not? Science fiction has certainly kidnapped enough from fantasy, given all those galaxy-spanning empires. Perhaps fantasy should kidnap some things back."

There's nothing wrong with science in fantasy, but I really do believe there's something wrong with modern science in medieval fantasy. We're dealing with worlds based on an idealized form of medieval Europe-- except that there are real gods, and all the magic actually works, and so on and so forth.

So... why would we assume that any of our scientific knowledge applies?

In the settings of these fantasy novels, we can see first-hand the effects of alchemy, of invoking the spirits, and of correcting the balance of bodily humors.

If these things work in a fantasy setting, then *that* is how reality works in that setting. If their reality actually works that way, then we have no basis for assuming that their understanding of their universe is somehow fundamentally incorrect.

We abandoned those theories when-- and only when-- we discovered theories and procedures that actually worked better.

(Reply to this)


[info]onyxflame
2006-03-05 01:10 am UTC (link)
My world is kinda interesting in this respect, and I only just now figured out why, heh.

It seems that they've likely had various eras of high technology, which the gods aren't usually too happy about because the more scientific they get, the less they believe in gods. The gods, however, aren't a particularly united force, so technology eventually gets developed anyway. The mortal belief in gods dwindles to a handful, leaving the rest of the gods to either sit around in the equivalent of an old folks' home yearning for the good ol' days, or running around on earth screwing with the mortals. Eventually the high technology empires die out for one reason or another, and the world swings back towards the other end of the cycle, leaving bits and pieces of past technology around.

And to think, I came up with all this just to figure out why cigarettes exist, considering they usually don't in fantasy books. :P

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