Limyaael ([info]limyaael) wrote,
@ 2004-12-23 16:12:00
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Current mood: bitchy
Entry tags:characterization rants: groups, fantasy rants: december 2004

Rant on antagonistic families
First of two posts on families. There’s so much here.



1) Differentiate between your character’s perceptions of her family and the reality of her family. One reason I loathe and detest and hate and would like to set on fire the majority of teenage protagonists in the fantasy genre, and run away from most books with them, and much prefer adult protagonists, is that the teenagers are almost always represented as perfectly right about their families. Either their families love and adore them, or they despise them for no good reason. Whichever it is, the teenagers are sure to think about it within a few pages of their introduction. And they are right. They are right, and that will never change.

I’ve been part of family interactions as well as seen them from outside. I think almost everyone has. And I would ask: How many arguments or problems in a family are only one person’s fault? Almost none. Yet the families of fantasy protagonists are often sure to blame them unfairly. The innocent protagonist only wants to daydream, and her mean ol’ parents will insist that she work. (See point 2). She almost never appears to consider that sitting around on a bale of hay and daydreaming, especially if she’s part of a farm family, will make her a liability, since she still takes from the family without giving anything. I would have no problem with the daydreaming if she agreed to sleep outside or take a cut in the food her family feeds her in exchange.

What about if the protagonist’s sister makes fun at her for being less beautiful than she is, and teases her, and makes her run away in tears? It’s the mean ol’ sister’s fault, of course. (See point 3). Yet the protagonist continues giving her sister exactly what she wants, the tears and the running away, and she never does anything new. For example, she never attempts to suggest a reasonable solution to the problem to her parents. She just has conversations with them about her sister “exactly like every other conversation they’d ever had.” And that’s the problem, you stupid-ass. I don’t feel inclined to give unconditional sympathy to someone who keeps walking the same rut she’s trod every time. Sympathy, yes, but at some point I would expect her to consider what new thing she could do, and at least try it. Passive-aggressive mumbling of the same tired kind will make her parents irritable and snappish. I am speaking from personal experience, here. (Recovering passive-aggressive addict with two younger siblings).

Does her brother keep beheading her flowers? That mean ol’ brother! (See point 4). So the heroine puts fire-spells on her garden to protect it, and then the fire-spells burn her brother, and her parents blame her, and isn’t that unfair?

Well, no, I don’t think so. I think a human life is worth more than flowers. And if it was a true accident—for example, if the heroine misjudged the strength of her spells—that just proves that she isn’t ready to be fooling around with magic yet. Her parents might have a point there.

Always, always remember that the other family members may have reasons for acting as they do. Think about what it would be like from their perspective. Don’t assume they’re just mean ol’ people without thinking about it more carefully. Even “straightforward” abuse is a lot more complicated than it seems on the surface. (See point 5).

2) Don’t over rely on your audience’s tendency to identify with lonely dreamers. Some fantasy readers do. They were lonely dreamers themselves. Others don’t. They were never lonely dreamers, or they outgrew it, or they changed, or they got up and made their dreams fucking real.

Sometimes I feel as though the author, at a loss to make her protagonist readable or sympathetic, decides that “daydreams” and “dreams of adventure” and “wanderlust” (though it’s rarely called that, presumably because you don’t want to use the word “lust” around a delicate maiden—fantasy heroines are almost always virgins) are enough to do it. Awww, lookit the widdle girl, wanting to adventure and she can’t! Awww, lookit the wonely boy, teased and taunted by his brothers because he would rather read than help with the farm chores! How sad they are! Let us cry for them.

Sorry, but when that first moment of oh-so-special sharing is past, I want to know more about them. What do they dream about? What do they want most out of life? Have they given up on their dreams, or have they half given up, or do they still think that there’s a chance of achieving them?

It’s remarkable, after all the pages devoted to the protagonist’s dreaming, how vague the answers to those questions often are. Probably because answering the question “What does your character desire most?” is a good first step on the road to someone definable. And what will the story do without the vague Everygirl or Everyboy who’s taunted by their families? (Or perhaps you can’t use the word “desire” around those delicate, virginal maidens, either).

Think about it, please. Why not a dreamer whom her family cherishes and understands, but as well as leaving her alone to daydream, they do insist that she does all her chores? And no, I don’t think that requiring she do as much as her brothers and sisters in terms of chores is abuse. Nor is insisting that, if the lonely reading boy gets books, his brothers get swords. (Books in most fantasy worlds are expensive). Life is so much more interesting when dreams have to get shaped and channeled by the limits of the possible. It’s the first step towards achieving them, for one thing.

3) Don’t base the protagonist’s relationship to siblings of the same sex on appearance. I try. I really do. I make a valiant effort to keep going when it becomes clear that the author is going to compare how beautiful two or three sisters are, or how handsome two or three brothers are, and zzzzz.

Wait. Wait. I can do this. See, the protagonist is the youngest sister, and her elder sister makes her feel bad for having blond hair, and zzzzz.

No, no, really! See, the youngest sister also has color-changing eyes and, and, zzzzzz….

Not going to work. Gee, I wonder why?

Maybe because it’s a fucking shallow thing to base sibling relationships on? Yes, it can be a start, but it’s far more likely that the protagonist would relate to a stranger or schoolyard rival that way, not someone she’s known all her life. She would remember embarrassing stories about her sister as a child. Yes, the male protagonist might feel squirmy if a girl he likes prefers his more handsome brother to him, but he’s hardly going to creep about and think only of how he always knew his brother would get the girls, because of his appearance. They’ve also had far more serious conflicts based on clashing personalities, having to share the same possessions, competing for parental attention, and so on.

There are two other reasons that sibling appearance contests send me to sleep:

-If the fantasy author who can build reasonable suspense about the ending is one in a hundred, the fantasy author who can build believable romantic suspense about whether two characters will really end up with each other is one in a thousand. If the protagonist appears to be losing her crush—I refuse to dignify the silly games that go on in these fantasy books with the term “love”—to her prettier sister, either she will win him by being more beautiful in the end, or he’ll turn out to be shallow and she’ll find someone a million times better. There’s not a whole lot of variation.
-The author winds up changing her mind about the protagonist’s appearance anyway. Retellings of the ugly duckling story are rampant in fantasy novels. The protagonist will always “bloom late,” or “grow into her own beauty,” or “shine in his eyes because he knew and loved her.” The male protagonist always loses his acne, if he even had to begin with, sooner or later and grows a manly jaw and is sure to be described as “ruggedly handsome.” It’s predictable as the sun rising.

4) Don’t make relationships with siblings of the opposite sex exclusively bitter little sniping contests. Once again, they’re complicated. I fought with my brother bitterly, but that’s because he was three and I was eight, and we had opposite interests. Now we manage to get along all right when one or both of us isn’t in a pissy mood. People do change.

I admit, I have to raise an eyebrow when I see a protagonist who has a younger fourteen-year-old brother acting just like a five-year-old. Yes, it’s possible that he just never grew up, but I would think that less likely in a fantasy world than in our own. Fantasy worlds are usually harsher, with more work, more disease, less comfortable living conditions, more violence, and on and on and on and on, to say nothing of the random rampaging dragons or marauding evil guys. Someone who’s still that childish at fourteen would probably attract attention and condemnation from outside the family, and it’s doubtful that a peasant family (where most fantasy protagonists come from, or apparently come from) could afford to have a child who acted like that; they’d either get him to straighten up before he hit fourteen or get him out of the house somehow, perhaps by apprenticing him. So the protagonist is being put in an utterly unrealistic situation just so the author can milk the maximum pity for her. I see. Good-bye.

For an older sibling, consider creating an antagonistic relationship out of something other than jealousy. So many times, the older brother or sister hates the younger sister or brother because they’re “jealous.” Yet, at the same time, the protagonist is represented as having almost nothing—no powerful and influential friends, because they’re too “different” from everyone else in the village or the castle; no good possessions, because of course their horrible hateful parents give the good stuff to their favored siblings; no free time; no way of making their dreams come true. So, um, why are these siblings “jealous” again? And don’t say that the older siblings recognize the inherent goodness of the protagonists or some such bull. I will bite you.

Very, very often, the writing of these relationships makes it sound as if it really were a teenager writing them. That could be a good thing, I suppose, if the goal is to get across the protagonist’s teenage mindset. But if the world is also teenager, if everyone really does act out of jealousy and petty hatred, then the book has a BIG problem. (See point 1 again. Do you really want a teenage world, where people never think of anything deeper?)

5) Don’t do the abusive parents/uncle/aunt/guardian shtick. Please, with cherries? I already did a whole rant on abused characters, so you can go look at that if you want detailed explanations of everything I’m saying here. But this applies specifically to abusive relationships with parental figures.

-Such abuse is blatantly exploitative. It exploits audience pity, it exploits audience cleverness that might otherwise notice obvious plotholes, and it exploits the reader’s immersion in the story. Of course everyone is against child abuse. If you don’t like the protagonist, are you saying you’re for child abuse? It’s wrong, it’s sick, it’s stupid, and I wish people would stop writing about it for the same reason that I wish people would stop writing those Chicken Soup for the Soul books.
-It’s become the typical thing to do. The fantasy protagonists who emerge from abused backgrounds aren’t special. They’re common as grubs under a log.
-Such protagonists are very rarely like real-life abused children, for all the supposed “trauma” they’ve endured. They have the showy signs—some scars, some broken limbs, some nightmares (nightmares are a favorite). They don’t have the gaping psychological wounds that abuse often leaves. The author may claim that they do, but for some reason, those wounds usually vanish the moment the wise old mentor “rescues” them and tells them about their special magic and destiny.
-The reasons for the abuse are not treated with any complexity. They usually come out of jealousy, or because the parents wish the protagonist’s magic had gone to a sibling, or because she wants adventure and is a girl, or something of the kind. The abusers are not people. They are the good ol’ mean abusive robots.
-It stands in for real characterization. The protagonist is simply Abused, much like she’s Not Pretty Compared to Her Sister.
-It leads to a revenge set-up—how will her abusive parent(s) feel when she comes back with magic and money and a prince on her arm, huh, huh?—that can’t be done with any more variation than most typical fantasy romances.
-Author issues stand a nasty chance of coming to the fore. Not all fantasy authors were abused, but they may have strained relationships with their parents, and use this to talk about those things. I signed up to read a fantasy, not a therapy session, thanks.
-Most of the time abuse is, simply, boring. Look, her father’s breaking her arm now. And is she thinking about how much it hurts and how unfair it is? She is. And look, I bet the author’s going to use “her arm snapped like a broken stick” comparison—yes, there it is! Yawn. A lot of authors seem to think abuse is easy to write. It is not. There has to be a sense of real horror, tension, drama, suspense. And a lot of fantasy authors regularly shoot their own suspense dead as a doornail.



Next part is on special loving families, and also twin relationships.




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[info]cygna_hime
2004-12-23 10:13 pm UTC (link)
It’s wrong, it’s sick, it’s stupid, and I wish people would stop writing about it for the same reason that I wish people would stop writing those Chicken Soup for the Soul books.

Word to everything, of course, but especially this. I got one of those books as a present once. Blah blah blah teen angst blah blah. I don't see the comfort.

These authors really show their illiteracy the most in their description of the daydreaming hero(ine) whose parents don't understand him/her, and who gets in trouble for not doing his/her chores. Speaking from experience: Multi-tasking works. Really. No true bookworm (of those I know, anyway) is incapable of reading while doing basic chores. If Angsty Abused Misunderstood Character A can't or never bothered to learn how to hold a book with one hand while washing clothes with the other, then they are probably just lazy. And yes, deserve to get yelled at.

I love my disfunctional god family, oh yes I do. Even the eternally-arguing siblings. Who are both right, or both wrong, possibly, since their main argument is character flaws, and really care about each other a great deal, somehow. And are so not jealous of each other the idea is laughable. And have a family where being the favored one is not always exactly a good thing. And I need to stop starting sentences with 'and'.

There is a point in the protagonists panegyric on how they are So Very Different and their parents Don't Understand and their siblings are Horribly Jealous where I fall asleep. Usually it's about the first sentence.

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[info]limyaael
2004-12-24 12:57 am UTC (link)
Blah blah blah teen angst blah blah. I don't see the comfort.

Supposedly, it echoes a great many people's real-life experiences. However, having known five or six fantasy readers who emerged from very, very ordinary backgrounds- one was an only child, so she had no sibling conflict whatsoever- and who admitted that their relationships to their parents were strained but not abusive, yet claimed that these books represented their experiences "perfectly!"... well, I'm skeptical of that. I'm also skeptical that every fantasy reader was a dreamy bookworm. Not really. Again, many might be, but the author can't lean on that alone to carry the story.

I used to read the protagonist's panegyric. Then I skipped it. Now I put down the book if that is what starts it.

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[info]art_of_kore
2004-12-24 06:20 am UTC (link)
>>Speaking from experience: Multi-tasking works.<<
Damn right it does. I'm a janitor. All night I do nothing but daydream and scrub toilets. My creative life has never been more prolific. It's not like your average heroine's chores are going to consist of solving differential equations or anything that requires much thought, after all.

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[info]tasllyn
2004-12-25 07:53 am UTC (link)
ok, i may be about to sound stupid, but what is a protagonists panegyric?

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[info]johnnymcbadass
2004-12-23 10:29 pm UTC (link)
Now here's one I want advice on.

You commented that you liked Bern and Liya's relationship in that it wasn't over-the-top abusive but rather aloof. In counterpoint you also said you thought the ending was too big a twist, which I understand, hell, I understood as I was writing it. That's why I need the advice. ;)

I want to portray Bern as a cold, broken man with nothing left to care for. I'd like to insert a scene in which, between his increased drinking and Liya's increased sense of independence, he hits her, to help foreshadow the ending. On the other hand, I don't want it to be cliche and stupid. So, anything you have to say is cool.

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[info]limyaael
2004-12-24 12:58 am UTC (link)
One effective way to do the scene is to go for understatement. Instead of having Liya meditate on the unfairness of the universe or storm out of the room in a temper, for example, use very simple, stripped-down, laconic language and gestures that are typical of Liya, not Abused Kid #474747474.

I would also say that the effects of the abuse should show up other places in the story. Perhaps it drives Liya to be more of a success in her swordplay studies?

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(no subject) - [info]johnnymcbadass, 2004-12-24 10:07 am UTC

[info]holyschist
2004-12-23 11:18 pm UTC (link)
I don’t feel inclined to give unconditional sympathy to someone who keeps walking the same rut she’s trod every time. Sympathy, yes, but at some point I would expect her to consider what new thing she could do, and at least try it.

Try being key there. There are always people who you just can't communicate with, no matter which techniques you use, no matter how much you compromise, even if you bend over backwards to avoid conflict.

Not that I'm bitter or anything.

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[info]limyaael
2004-12-24 12:59 am UTC (link)
Yes, it's possible that trying may do nothing. But I've gotten sick of stories where the protagonist can, apparently, imagine things that she could do differently, but never tries them- or is described as a great thinker and planner, very intelligent, yet can't think of any way to change her situation.

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[info]youraugustine
2004-12-24 01:02 am UTC (link)
Such protagonists are very rarely like real-life abused children, for all the supposed “trauma” they’ve endured

Indeed. D'avan was an abused child. He's a shit now. He can't form emotional attachments, he's paranoid beyond belief, he has a low value of human life, he's cruel, sharp, nasty, impatient, cold and in general, broken and emotionally stunted.

The "Destiny" only makes these things worse. ::g:: I think I may have the only God-chosen protagonist I've come across who looked at his Destiny and went, " . . .fuck you. Gimme what I want, or I'll SIT here and WATCH the world go to hell. Try me." and never, at any point, repented that or thought maybe he'd do things anyway.

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[info]damien_winter
2004-12-24 01:28 am UTC (link)
>I think I may have the only God-chosen protagonist I've come across who looked at his Destiny and went, " . . .fuck you. Gimme what I want, or I'll SIT here and WATCH the world go to hell. Try me." and never, at any point, repented that or thought maybe he'd do things anyway.

My _Hero_. I've wondered why this never happens in, well, anything. 'Course, it wouldn't be much of a fulfillment fantasy then.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]youraugustine, 2004-12-24 03:08 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2004-12-24 02:29 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]otakukeith, 2004-12-24 04:29 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]criada, 2004-12-24 05:21 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]youraugustine, 2004-12-24 05:28 pm UTC
You can develop a noble person out of an abusive situation. - [info]saadiira, 2004-12-25 10:52 am UTC
However... - [info]ravenclaw_devi, 2004-12-26 04:03 am UTC

[info]autumnstar1
2004-12-24 01:04 am UTC (link)
I can't wait for the twins rant!

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[info]damien_winter
2004-12-24 01:26 am UTC (link)
>(though it’s rarely called that, presumably because you don’t want to use the word “lust” around a delicate maiden—fantasy heroines are almost always virgins)

Now I'm wondering if there are fantasy heroines that are prostitutes. Hmm... I've read badly-written male prostitute heroes, but never a female. How odd.

>3) Don’t base the protagonist’s relationship to siblings of the same sex on appearance.
>4) Don’t make relationships with siblings of the opposite sex exclusively bitter little sniping contests.

Amen. Being an only child, I've never had to deal with this, but every one I know with siblings is so protective of them that it's scary. They fight all the time, but if someone hurts their family... 'Course, I've latched onto younger friends in much the same way. =P

Bibliophiles make awesome heroes, in my opinion. I ran into one named "Banal Irony", and it hilarious. He didn't do original things, he just copied what he'd read.

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[info]chiyo_no_saru
2004-12-24 01:52 am UTC (link)
It's the whole "I can make fun of them, but if you go near my siblings, you DIE." sort of deal. And it's so, so true.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) - [info]lnhammer, 2004-12-24 02:36 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]othercat, 2004-12-24 06:50 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]winterfox, 2004-12-24 07:01 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2004-12-24 02:36 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]damien_winter, 2004-12-25 02:53 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2004-12-24 02:31 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]damien_winter, 2004-12-25 03:06 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]greenygal, 2004-12-24 04:44 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]damien_winter, 2004-12-25 03:07 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]greenygal, 2004-12-25 05:07 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]damien_winter, 2004-12-25 05:33 am UTC
Not to be a pest... - [info]saadiira, 2004-12-25 11:21 am UTC
Re: Not to be a pest... - [info]damien_winter, 2004-12-25 08:40 pm UTC

[info]tiferet
2004-12-24 01:56 am UTC (link)
I once started to write a daydreaming heroine and she burnt the rice because she was reading. And it suddenly became very clear to me that there was a very good reason why most of her family was annoyed with her 90% of the time--you couldn't trust her with the simplest of tasks.

I am a lot like this myself (it's called ADD) but it's not what I'd consider a shining recommendation of a great personality, and, in fact, I take medicine in part so that I don't do things like this, because wasting food and having to clean up the mess you made ceases to be funny the second you have to pay your own bills and clean up after yourself.

I think the people who write these characters don't understand that mothers don't have time to pick up after you in this kind of world--that there are no labour-saving devices whatsoever and ordinary housework is backbreaking drudgery.

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[info]limyaael
2004-12-24 02:40 pm UTC (link)
that there are no labour-saving devices whatsoever and ordinary housework is backbreaking drudgery.

This is the exact problem. The author puts so much of herself in the heroine that it's as though the heroine could walk into the next room, turn on her computer and her stereo, and run the vaccum. I don't think they really take the labor-saving devices away, just pretend they're temporarily invisible, so that they can continue to play the part of the heroine.

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[info]tiferet
2004-12-24 01:57 am UTC (link)
On the other hand, my brother and I still can't stand each other, and we'd probably never speak to each other if we weren't related. But I'm weird. I have a very, very, unusually strained relationship with my family of origin.

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[info]limyaael
2004-12-24 02:43 pm UTC (link)
In the case of a relationship like that, though, the causes are usually more complex than "jealousy." I would expect authors who are writing from personal experiences like that to know it- at least if they haven't clung to the stupid "He's just jealous!" explanation for years and years and years.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]lnhammer
2004-12-24 02:32 am UTC (link)
One reason I loathe and detest and hate and would like to set on fire the majority of teenage protagonists in the fantasy genre, and run away from most books with them, and much prefer adult protagonists, is that the teenagers are almost always represented as perfectly right about their families.

This is often true of fantasies written for the adult fantasy market. It is quite vigorously not true for fantasies written for the young adult market. This is because a) authors trained in YA know better and b) YA editors (who edit a lot more and often a lot better than adult SF/F editors) generally won't let them get away with that crap. YA writers have to get teenagers and their families right, or the major reviewers will call them on it and the libraries (who drive a lot of the YA market) won't buy them.

Another reason to read YA: even the mediocre stuff is better written than the average adult SF/F book (see above comment about editors).

---L.

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[info]limyaael
2004-12-24 02:50 pm UTC (link)
It depends on the YA fantasy. I enjoyed Diana Wynne Jones's Chrestomanci books (except the third one, the plot of which seemed disjointed) and Dave Duncan's A Man of His Word series (two of the only teenage characters in fantasy I have affection for as teenagers) because they didn't scruple to put real obstacles in the characters' way or make their lives complicated, and they gave their heroes flaws. With series like Tamora Pierce's Alanna or Mercedes Lackey's Arrows Trilogy, it seems as though the heroine got everything she wanted (in Pierce, the favor of a goddess and the love of three men and a talking cat and magic and great sword-skill and a faithful horse and the adoration of everyone who wasn't "jealous" or "evil"; in Lackey, skill at mind-magic and the love of two men and a telepathic white horse and the favor of the Queen and a snatching away from a dreary sexist life and the adoration of everyone who wasn't "jealous" or "evil") without having to work for it. If it seems as though the heroine is about to do that, or if it starts out with a sexist scene, which both Pierce's and Lackey's series did, I am now wise enough, I hope, to run away, YA fantasy or not.

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[info]sabotabby
2004-12-24 02:32 am UTC (link)
Dysfunctional families make for great reading; abusive families are boring.

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[info]alex_von_cercek
2004-12-24 12:53 pm UTC (link)
Amen.

Also, simply having them be dysfunctional can actually be scarier. Instead of a father who breaks his daughter's hand because he's oh so mean, consider a father who sees his daughter with a broken hand, asks her if she's alright, and offers her some bandages before heading off to do something more interesting.

Of course, if you do this, the family should be fully dysfunctional, not just diysfunctional towards the heroine. The same innability to communicate should pervade not only the relationships between our heroine and her family, but between each other family member as well.

Now THAT'd be a scary fucked up family to read about. The father doesn't HATE our heroine. The problem is that the father, much like the heroine, is a compulsive dreamer as well. Sure, he could deal with his daughter, but he prefers to fantasize about a perfect world in which everything runs soothly and everything is fine.

Hell, it'd be a perfect criticism of all the "“daydreams” and “dreams of adventure” and “wanderlust”" stuff, because it'd show what it does to OTHER people.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]alex_von_cercek, 2004-12-24 01:00 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2004-12-24 02:52 pm UTC

[info]raincrystal
2004-12-24 03:29 am UTC (link)
Sometimes I feel as though the author, at a loss to make her protagonist readable or sympathetic, decides that “daydreams” and “dreams of adventure” and “wanderlust” (though it’s rarely called that, presumably because you don’t want to use the word “lust” around a delicate maiden—fantasy heroines are almost always virgins)

*falls over laughing* Best observation EVAR.

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[info]limyaael
2004-12-24 02:55 pm UTC (link)
*grin* Thankya.

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[info]deathglare
2004-12-24 05:07 am UTC (link)
Definately nice on that one.

How about something along the lines of feuds between different families eventually? That could put added stress on a family already having problems internally.

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[info]art_of_kore
2004-12-24 06:37 am UTC (link)
Like the Romeo and Juliet syndrome? I'd love to see a rant on that, to be sure.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2004-12-24 02:58 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]alex_von_cercek, 2004-12-24 04:21 pm UTC
lovers - [info]deathglare, 2004-12-25 01:14 am UTC

[info]art_of_kore
2004-12-24 06:30 am UTC (link)
This is why one of my favorite lines in my NaNoWriMo novel is:

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[info]art_of_kore
2004-12-24 06:33 am UTC (link)
This is why one of my favorite lines in my NaNoWriMo novel is:
Teenaged protagonist- "I want to get away from my people, they all hate me."
Wise old mentor - "You're a teenager, everyone hates you."

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]limyaael
2004-12-24 03:00 pm UTC (link)
*grin* I do like that.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) - [info]starfishofelves, 2004-12-24 04:12 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]deathglare, 2004-12-25 01:10 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]damien_winter, 2004-12-25 02:39 am UTC

[info]minervasolo
2004-12-24 10:10 am UTC (link)
I've been struggling with this so much recently. I think I've hit it perfectly in one family, with an alcoholic father and resentful son, but in the protagonist's family the father dies in the first few chapters, and I'm struggling to convey that the son only thought he was doing these things because he was evil. In fact, the father's trying to mould the son to be a good heir, and is bitter and cruel because his father was just the same, as was his, and so on back down the line. Short of "Galahad thought he father did x because he was evil, but his father knew he was doing it because of y" I'm getting a bit stuck.

For a brief moment I was proud of myself for avoiding all the sibling problems. Then I noticed all four of my main characters are only children. I can't even see anyway to change that. One is cursed to be an only child, one is an orphan, and one comes from a family where at least one of the parents was always/became infertile after her birth. That and any sibling I introduced now would be woefully underdeveloped as a character.

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[info]limyaael
2004-12-24 03:04 pm UTC (link)
I don't think only children are a problem, as long as there are reasons for it (and not something silly like the evil mage managing to kill all their siblings but them).

To show off the father's true motivation:

-Galahad could find a written or pictured record of his family- perhaps his father's diary- that would explain this pattern of abuse is nothing unusual.
-He could see a similar relationship from outside and start wondering and comparing it to his own relationship with his father.
-Someone could listen to him talk about it and tell him what they think.
-If his father is struggling to make him a good ruler, then show flashbacks, either from Galahad or other people, of him as a good ruler. I assume that his bitterness and cruelty must have helped him somehow? Show how.

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(no subject) - [info]alex_von_cercek, 2004-12-24 04:19 pm UTC

[info]marumae
2004-12-24 06:09 pm UTC (link)
Most excellent rant, I used think I have the abusive family schtick down but reading this rant makes me realize I have a few mislead ideas in my head. (Thanks a lot Lackey), this rant has been really helpful. *grins*

4) Don’t make relationships with siblings of the opposite sex exclusively bitter little sniping contests.

Well you could go one way and make it all secret incestual tension *cough*VC Andrews*cough*. But then in that case, the snippy comments are usually merely playful banter between siblings.

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[info]marumae
2004-12-24 06:10 pm UTC (link)
I say that last comment because my most recent story actually started unconsciously moving in that direction. A direction I might I did NOT want to go. At least not in that story. I still haven't found away around it, those characters refuse to be changed and are currently shoved away in a (to be used later) closet.

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(no subject) - [info]damien_winter, 2004-12-25 02:43 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2004-12-26 02:21 pm UTC

[info]jaquiel
2004-12-24 06:31 pm UTC (link)
I found this rant very interesting to me, since I have a character who was... abused. Sort of. Wel, no, she wasn't abused, but she was traumatized. Basically, her mother went crazy and started killing people. (She was essentially a serial killer, I'm thinking 30-40 victims, so no, she didn't destroy the world while sweet little daughter watched. Set [the main character/daughter]actually killed a few people herself)Furthermore, she was a 'victim' of statuatory rape at the age of 12, when she was somewhat knowledgeable of the consequences and perfectly willing. Obviously, this fucked her up severely, along with heavy alcohol use around her (no beatings) and a dead father. The dead father is cliche, and yeah, is is the sexual abuse to an extent. I've actually never seen statuatory rape in a fantasy novel whre the girl/boy was willing.

Anyway, I'm interested to hear some feedback. I think that it is possible to do abuse well, but you're definitely right about the typical blatant beatings. Boooring. The funny thing is that most authors who write about that probably have never gotten a real beating in their lives. They're probably just pissy about getting spanked as a little kid. Boo hoo.

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[info]damien_winter
2004-12-25 02:47 am UTC (link)
>her mother went crazy and started killing people. (She was essentially a serial killer, I'm thinking 30-40 victims...

Actually, that fits the profile of a mass murderer better. Serial killers can be completely normal whenever they're not killing people, and tend to have a low number of kills spread over a long time period. IIRC, that is. And of course, they target a specific group of people (ie: Jack the Ripper targeted young girls). But you knew that.

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(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2004-12-26 02:23 pm UTC

[info]kleenexwoman
2004-12-24 06:35 pm UTC (link)
I liked the "lonely dreamers" thing when I was, like, twelve and felt oh-so-ostracized by the cold and skeptical world. After that I started reading science fiction and got over it.
In a novel I started this year and never finished, I did try to give my character a really good reason to skip out on her mom--she was trying to do something interesting with her life. Didn't think that farmwork was fulfilling enough. I don't know how good a reason that is for a peasant girl, and I don't think I did it too well.

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[info]limyaael
2004-12-26 02:25 pm UTC (link)
I'd be interested in finding out why farmwork wasn't fulfilling enough. Did they regularly receive peddlers who talked of a more distant land? Did she have dreams about other things (and where did she get the dreams from?) Did her village used to be in the center of important events, and then the important events moved elsewhere, so she wants to go find them? Peasants would be much more isolated than even nobles and knights in their castles, never mind twenty-first-century First World citizens. Where did she hear the stories?

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Oh yeah, one more thing...
[info]jaquiel
2004-12-24 06:48 pm UTC (link)
I just forgot to mention this in the last post. XD

Screwiness can come from things other than the typical abuse. My mother (actually a pretty normal person) came from a family with three other siblings. Now, bear with me here, because this is a true story. And frankly, I think it's more horrifying than anything you'll ever find in a fantasy novel.

So anyway, my mom had three siblings, Mary Ellen, Greg, and Marty. Mary Ellen became a druggie at an early age, using weed at about 13 and later moving on to every kind of drug imaginable, as well as heavy smoking and drinking. She spent a long time homeless, and I'm not sure of the details but I know that she became a prostitute for money to buy drugs. At some point she slept with her brother, Marty. She is currently on incredibly heavy medication, and she just got out of a drug induced coma and lost 50% of her hearing. Her brain is essentially fried. Ozzy Osborne fried. Worse, really. She also is/was a heavy self-mutilator who has cut herself so deeply that she has hit arteries by accident. Furthermore, her blood vessels could all collapse at any moment, so when she gets blood tests she has to get them from the jugular vein. She has diabetes and Hep C.

Greg spent a long time working as a servant for some rich asshole. He, too was a drug addict and a heavy drinker and smoker. He eventually got off the drugs but continued to drink heavily. About to years ago, he got totally clean. No drugs, no smoking, no drinking. He now lives near us in a trailer park and works as a bus driver. He also apparently stole a car at age fourteen.

Marty was also a heavy drug addict who still smokes pot to this day. He's married to a nuerotic diabetic named Pat who recently was admitted into a hospital after threatening suicide. His adopted son, Jason, is the epitome of a stoner. He is the definition of stoner. He currently makes money by stealing from his mother, who is currently senile. He ives an expensive lifestyle but has no job, nor does Pat. He is about to go bankrupt.

Now, they were never beaten, aside from spankings. They were never sexually abused by their parents (only by each other, apparently, or in Mary Ellen's case, by people who were paying her), they were never tortured. Their parents didn't spit on them. They didn't live in horrible poverty, they lived in a nice house in Ohio and went to a Catholic School. But their parents basically ignored them.

Seriously. The kids would smoke pot in the house and the smell wuld get s thick it was hard to breathe, and they said nothing. The kids would be sleeping with each other and they said nothing, did nothing. Mary Ellen stood on the roof of her High School and threatened to jump and they said nothing about it, did nothing. Pretended it didn't happen. There was no conversation at the dinner table. My mother didn't say a word in the house for an entire year and nobody noticed. When her father died, my mother didn't even flinch, because she had no connection to him. He was just another guy.

*That's* abuse. That's the lives of three people, down the drain. Done. Greg, at least, has begun to recover, and Marty could recover if he wanted to. Mary Ellen, however, will never recover from her problems.

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Re: Oh yeah, one more thing...
[info]damien_winter
2004-12-25 02:51 am UTC (link)
That's really scary. That's really, really scary. I'm really surprised that your mom got out of there relatively normal. Or at least, more stable then her siblings.

Wow. *shakes head*

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[info]edda
2004-12-26 06:10 am UTC (link)
*applauds* Excellent!

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[info]limyaael
2004-12-26 02:25 pm UTC (link)
*grin* Thank you.

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And now, for something completely different...
[info]jinnigan
2004-12-26 05:15 pm UTC (link)
How do I get started in writing? Are there writing classes of sorts that I should be taking? Should I just start writing away? I mean, I have these ideas for books and plots and whahaveyou, but largely they are like, 9-book series, or something, and I'm thinking that's maybe a bit too much for me to chew without any experience, yes?

Yeah. So I guess what I'm asking, is, "How do I learn to put my ideas down on paper in the way that I want them to."

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Re: And now, for something completely different...
[info]limyaael
2004-12-26 06:14 pm UTC (link)
I don't think classes are necessary, though they may be helpful. I do think that if you take them, it's important to find one that won't denigrate what you're interested in writing; part of my problem was that I couldn't find a creative writing group where fantasy was respected.

Other than that, try a different variety of techniques. It took me a while before I figured out that writing a few pages every day worked for me. Vary time and location and kind of writing until you find a combination that works. Try working with outlines and without them. Try different kinds of word processor programs, different preparations, and so on. The ones that work best for you are the ones that work best for you.

Only advice I can offer there is that practice and perseverance do more than anything else. If every free minute is consumed in elaborate preparations or planning, nothing gets written.

And I don't think 9-book series are too large, particularly if you're the kind of writer who can work on alternating projects, or two projects at once. Just don't set yourself an impossible goal- "I will have all of these books done by 2007"- if it's not going to work.

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Re: And now, for something completely different... - [info]jinnigan, 2004-12-27 02:46 pm UTC

[info]onyxflame
2006-03-05 08:17 am UTC (link)
You know...abuse could be used in a totally different way than it usually is. (Probably a lot of ways actually, but it's after 2am. :P)

Why not have it be the protagonist's sibling who gets abused, instead of the protagonist? Only the protagonist doesn't know about it. (This is entirely possible. How many molestation cases have you heard of where those who weren't involved in the acts had no freaking clue?) And when he finds out about it, what do you think his reaction is gonna be? Especially if he's treated this sibling like shit himself.

Not all abuse is visible from the outside, especially in a world where there probably aren't people trained to look for it.

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