Limyaael ([info]limyaael) wrote,
@ 2004-12-26 16:44:00
Previous Entry  Add to memories!  Tell a Friend!  Next Entry
Current mood: bitchy
Entry tags:characterization rants: groups, fantasy rants: december 2004

Rant on good families
Complement to the last rant.



1) If you have sweet memories of a murdered family, please try to make them sweet and not saccharine. This happens both with protagonists who escape just as their family is being murdered and those who were orphaned at such an early age that they don’t really remember their parents. The memories they call up to keep them going, give them fuel for vengeance, are told about by other people, or whatever, might as well be seen through rose-colored glasses. The protagonist doesn’t seem to have stepped out of a family. She seems to have stepped out of a Hallmark card.

I suppose someone might argue—I have seen it argued—that the family is there only for symbolic purposes in such a case, so the Hallmark card does no damage. But I don’t like it when other characters are sacrifices to the protagonist’s self-esteem. I don’t like it at all. It’s no different than making one character the designated bully or comic relief. And really, isn’t it boring to write about a human character raised by a family of perfect robots? At least as boring as writing about a human character raised by a family of abusive automatons? Especially when the character herself exhibits traits that aren’t consistent with being raised in such a perfect family, or the daughter of two people who had nothing wrong with them at all?

The best solution, I think, is to show that while the protagonist can remember her wonderfully perfect Momma and Poppa all she likes, that doesn’t mean they never cursed or got drunk or made mistakes or woke up with bedhead and halitosis. Snap the connection between your protagonist’s perceptions and the world around her. Show that she’s not right about everything, and then the readers are more likely to accept her polished portraits as the defensive mechanisms of a grieving person, rather than the HOLY TRUTH as it’s often portrayed in fantasy novels.

2) Don’t ignore serious problems—like clashes of personalities—that the story sets up just to have everyone defer to your protagonist. Family interactions are an interesting middle drawing in most fantasy novels, and even short stories, between the fully developed, deep, and human picture that there would be if the author ever got off her lazy ass and the scribbled, barely penciled-in sketches that are most interactions between the protagonists and stock fantasy characters. Authors, perhaps drawing on memories of their own families, might start to set up situations where the protagonist isn’t always right. The sibling relationships can seem very real. The parents might have understandable reasons for not wanting their daughter to practice fire magic in the middle of a dry forest when there hasn’t been rain for weeks. The protagonist might make a severe mistake and seem about to get punished with it.

And then what happens?

The author defuses the tension, has the other person forgive the protagonist, and the story goes smoothly along.

I want to know where the authors find all this magical forgiveness. I wish I knew already. I’d buy it by the truckload and make my brother forgive me for every time we’ve annoyed each other since he was nine months old.

The thing is, you can’t have the fruits of conflict without the conflict itself. For pain and mistakes to cause character development, they have to happen in the first place. Rescuing your protagonist every time she seems about to get yelled at, probably by having her recite some sticky saccharine speech that would be right at home at the end of a sitcom and the other person blush and back down, doesn’t allow them to happen. It dumps the magical forgiveness sand on the whole bonfire. There’s the protagonist burning down half the forest and her parents racing towards her, making sure she’s all right, opening their mouths to yell…and then there’s the protagonist and her parents sitting on the couch, holding hands, while they assure her that it’s all right and she must have had good reason to use her magic the way she did, never mind the forest fire that threatened the village and destroyed hundreds of innocent trees, The End.

Remember: This is the plot you created. This is the conflict that you set up. You are doing your readers and your characters a disservice if the conflict then doesn’t happen because no one in the protagonist’s family can stand to get angry at her, but most of all, you’re doing yourself a disservice. This kind of shortcutting encourages authorial laziness like nobody’s business. And it is nobody’s business. If the character never makes a mistake or pays for one, she’s going to remain one-dimensional.

3) Try introducing some slippage between children’s perceptions of famous parents and what those parents did. I tend to back away from bad fantasy at a cautious pace. When I pick up a series that’s about the children of a world-saving couple from a prior series, my speed approaches the supersonic.

The series serves to let the children become copies of their world-saving parents, or let the parents save the world again, in 90% of the cases I’ve read. (I am so talking to you and your entire plot for the Malloreon, David Eddings). And the children have heard all about their famous parents from the time they could toddle, of course, and though they may at first be resentful and want to escape that shadow, in the end they will reconcile and All Will Be All Right.

You don’t think any world-saving couple would ever try to shelter their children? You think the near end of the world always makes for appropriate bedtime stories? You think that the stories the couple tells their kids about themselves would perfectly match what the old cronies of the couple, or their enemies, remember? There are dozens of ways that the “truth” would get distorted, and the children of the famous parents might well not remember what their parents really look or sound like, from the stories that come to their ears when they start listening. Think of the way that tabloids represent celebrities. Those are assuredly very different from the things that celebrities think about themselves- and tell their children.

So, if you must write about the children of a world-saving couple—and I would say think twice as hard about that as about any other kind of fantasy plot, except perhaps the one with the royal orphaned heir adopted by peasants who has a mysterious prophecy attached to him saying he will defeat the Dark Lord—give them a chance to get caught in that delicious middle ground between rumor and truth. Don’t let their parents be shining beacons. If the first series was good, they probably weren’t shining, flawless beacons then anyway, were they? If you have more to say about them, they shouldn’t have transformed into shining, flawless beacons between series, either. Make them (and their children) people, and the family can get along just fine without perfectly getting along.

4) If children have supernatural intelligence and/or a sense of responsibility, then show a family that would foster those abilities. This goes straight back to my reading of The Painter Knight by Fiona Patton, in which I had got about a third of the way through the book and started thinking, “This has a kid in it. The kid is five years old and doing stuff that would be exceptional for a child of eighteen…Oh shit oh shit oh shit.”

I did finish the book, but The Painter Knight remains the only book in Patton’s Branion series that I’ve never had the urge to reread. It can stay in its box, thank you.

Why? Because the child in question, five-year-old Prince Kassandra (no, that is not a misprint; Branion is a gender-neutral society) has a father whose air is one of benign neglect, who isn’t a very good ruler himself, who spends a lot of time drinking and carousing and doesn’t teach her how to handle their family line’s inherent flame-based magic—and then, when he's murdered and she has to flee with her father’s best friend, Kassandra is somehow the most intelligent and best ruler that Branion has ever seen. At five. She judges the cases of traitors and comes up with war strategies. At five. With that kind of father. At five.

I’m not going to say that fantasy children should never ever ever have abilities beyond the ordinary, because a medieval environment could well foster early adulthood, and besides, George R. R. Martin devotees would have earned the right to smack me for saying it. But do place them in a family where parents and/or siblings might have that kind of influence, hmmm? While one could argue that Prince Kassandra’s inherent magic told her what to do, none of the other royal children anywhere else in the Branion series show similar abilities, even in equally dangerous circumstances. She’s Just That Special.

At least show some reason for why the child became Just That Special.

5) Don’t play the “Anything you can do I can do better!” game between the protagonist and her parents, or the protagonist and her siblings. This goes back to 3 to a large extent. When the famous world-saving couple’s children rebel and run away, they often develop abilities that are carbon copies of their parents’. They’re also going to be the chosen of their parents’ gods, or they’re going to be fire mages, or they’re going to be the best fighters the world has ever seen, or whatever—except that they’ll do it even better. This is the prime reason that a second series focused on the couple’s children so often feels like an excuse for the author to rewrite the same concepts she’s already written once.

It also sometimes happens with siblings. All the children can talk to animals, but the protagonist has the most powerful magic—except that no one knows that, probably, because it’s hidden behind Stupid-Ass Plot Devices. So her siblings tease her, until the climax, when the protagonist talks to all the animals at once and brings all of them to help, and then her siblings collapse at her feet in helpless admiration. Piffle. Psst. Rubbish. But it happens anyway.

This is the obverse of the antagonistic and petty sibling relationship based on jealousy, while sharing some of its worst characteristics. Here, other characters can do things the protagonist can do—but she’s still the best out of all of them. They possess no skill that she does not. She is the container and repository of all magic, or all wisdom, or all skill.

Please, take this shit over there. I think the rosebushes need it more than the story does.

6) If you have twins, try making them separate people. I don’t say “different,” because it’s perfectly possible to make twins different—often obnoxiously so, so that one twin is wild where the other is refined, one is popular while the other is popular only with the suckers elite, one is extroverted while the other is introverted—and still not have them be separate people. They’re too obviously foils for each other. The story could have one perfect character, and no one would notice the difference. But because the author senses, dimly, the peril of describing someone as both wild and refined, popular and unpopular, extroverted and introverted, she separates them into two mirror images instead, just so that she can have them all the traits in boring perfection.

I get bored reading about twins because the author tells me over and over again about the “special” bond between them, while not showing it. There’s this thing about a bond, you see. You have to have at least two people to make it. And if you don’t have two people who register as people, instead of one person the author just happens to have two names for or an attempt at including all the possible perfect traits in diametric boringness, everything from Column A and everything from Column B, then I’m not interested.

Try thinking about what there is to say about the twins, besides the fact that they’re twins. If you really can’t think of anything about them that doesn’t depend on a complementary presence or lack in their twin, they’re probably on their way to boring perfection.

7) Don’t upstage another family with your protagonist’s family, and vice versa. You know the tale:

Once there was a bitter, lonely, unhappy protagonist who suffered at home because his family didn’t appreciate her. Then he went to her best friend’s house, and they treated him well and loved her, and everything was better there. The End.

Or:

Once there was a bitter, lonely, unhappy best friend of the protagonist who suffered at home because they didn’t appreciate him. So she went to the protagonist’s house, and got adopted by his wonderful family, and everything was better. The End.

Comparing families ultimately does no more than comparing abilities. It’s almost never a true comparison, darks to lights, advantages to disadvantages, but a tally that puts maybe one pro under the terrible family and gives all the others to the perfect one. And the perfect family always appreciates and loves the protagonist/best friend for who he or she was meant to be, of course. Somehow, they can understand this inherent specialness that other people can have lived with her for ten years and never seen. (Maybe because it only exists in her author’s head?)

One thing I appreciated, for all my irritation with other aspects of the story, about Robin Hobb’s protagonist, the royal bastard, FitzChivalry, is that his family is not ideal (his royal grandfather trains him to become an assassin so he will be loyal to him; his uncles are well-meaning but busy, or vicious; his father’s wife tries with him, but doesn’t always succeed; he doesn’t remember his mother at all), but neither is the family of his best friend and love interest, Molly (a neglectful father, and no adoring siblings). They had to find family in other places than each other’s set of inexplicably perfect blood relatives.



Travel in fantasy is next.




(Post a new comment)


[info]marumae
2004-12-26 10:22 pm UTC (link)
All this reminds me of the revelation of Harry's father in the 5th book. I nearly applauded Rowling when she pulled that plot device out of her hat. Made Harry all the more real in my opinion, to know that James wasn't all Gary Stu-Christ salvation that Harry thought he was. It rounds him more as a character. Though I'm a bit sketchy about Lily and I'm sorry to say someone in a fanfiction made me earn Petunia sympathy rather then Lily. (Man that was a great fic)

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]tiferet
2004-12-26 11:27 pm UTC (link)
Actually I feel sorry for Petunia too. It doesn't excuse the way she treats Harry, but it would have to suck to have a prettier, smarter sister who then turns out to be a witch and everyone in the family just loves it, instead of having normal reactions like being horrified or freaked out or even just accepting it.

I don't blame her for hating her sister. I don't think it justifies her abuse of her sister's child, but if Lily was my sister, I think I'd hate her too.

Especially after she married that wanker James.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]limyaael
2004-12-27 01:35 am UTC (link)
I think maybe the 'building sympathy for Petunia' thing is one of the reasons the Dursleys don't show up that often. (For such a dark and negative force in Harry's life, they spend surprisingly little time on stage). Building up the story of Petunia's and Lily's relationship might be inevitable otherwise, and distract from the story Rowling is telling.

(Now that I've said that, watch more information about that show up in the next books and torpedo my conceptions of the plot to shreds).

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]marumae
2004-12-27 03:27 pm UTC (link)
Oh I agree completely on the, 'it being no exuse to abuse your sisters child' thing. But I am just admitting I do feel sorry for her. It would suck if your prettier and smarter sister suddenly had a revelation that made her even MORE special. And yes especially if she was married to that wanker James.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]rhjunior
2005-09-11 07:32 am UTC (link)
I couldn't resist the temptation to point out that the memories that made James Potter look so bad were 1)very limited and 2)the memories of a man--- Snape--- who was James' worst enemy and a tenfold wanker himself. I'm surprised that JK Rowling has never addressed the unspoken flaw of the Pensieve: memories are very subjective, and only grow more so over time. What Harry saw was Snape's perceptions of what happened--- which could be vastly different from what actually occured.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]limyaael
2004-12-27 01:33 am UTC (link)
I think that scene hit me harder in OoTP than almost any other (except Neville's parents, and the scene where Harry shouted "Crucio!" at Bellatrix Lestrange). It does show that Harry's worldview is not always going to be perfect, and perhaps by the seventh book will be shattered completely. And it shows the damage that can result if the only thing an orphaned child hears about his parents is rosy memories. If he does hear something bad about them later, he doesn't have any preparation for dealing with it.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]edda
2004-12-26 10:56 pm UTC (link)
Well said. Thank you.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]edda
2004-12-26 10:58 pm UTC (link)
Also? I'm checking Fiona Patton out over at Amazon and getting a Mercedes-Lackey/Valdemarish feeling from them. Yes? No?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]limyaael
2004-12-27 01:37 am UTC (link)
Hmmm. Depends what you're looking for. Branion is very, very heavily based on England, down to geography and the kingdom having a war with Scotland, but the society is gender-neutral, bisexuality is normal, and the dominant religion is focused on worship of the elements, with the Christianity-analogue being a minor sideline.

Of the four books, I enjoyed the last two that were written, The Granite Shield and The Golden Sword, the most. Both followed ensembles of characters and seemed more skillfully plotted. The Painter Knight was cliché city apart from the king being lovers with the title character, and The Stone Prince read as though Patton took the plot of Lackey's Last Herald-Mage trilogy and somewhat replicated it- though I enjoyed the characters a good deal more.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]youraugustine
2004-12-26 11:29 pm UTC (link)
#3 - is an interesting thing to work with the vague outlines of plot for Storm of Ice and Darkness. It's an interesting thing to plot for a child who will know substantially more detail and have a more accurrate picture of what her parents did than anyone else - due to her father's oft-stated and firmly adhered to policy not to lie to children (at least no more than he lies to anyone else). Which means that she's biting her tongue a lot - and that her picture of the timeperiod is much grimmer, much darker and much MORE nuanced than the official history. Neither of her parents being inclined to give out massive details where they don't need to.

#5 - She does, in fact, share an ability with her mother. That's why her mother IS her mother; had circumstances been other, she'd just be dead, not adopted. That said, her baseline (that is, hardwired as opposed to learned) personality is rather wildly different, so they won't behave in the same manner at all - which is as much fun to explore as massive total differences are.

For #6 I went in completely the opposite direction. ::chuckle:: That's fun.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]limyaael
2004-12-27 01:40 am UTC (link)
3 can admittedly be done in interesting ways. I actually enjoyed the plot of Dave Duncan's series A Handful of Men, which followed A Man of His Word and focused on the children of the couple from the first series, because the children had such radically different experiences with some of the same choices; one was confronted with a gift which her father would most assuredly have rejected, and embraced it instead. I was glad when Duncan ended the series decisively after that, though.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]goblin_11
2004-12-27 01:25 am UTC (link)
>>6) If you have twins, try making them separate people.

And,you know, if they are separate genders, for Bob's sake do not have them sleep with one another. Because, the entire twin incest thing was only fun the first time I read it...and I am not saying that it cannot be only that it is really overused, so like, one should be careful with it.

And, erh, mystical bond. I think I would like to see fantasy world twins without a magical bond for once.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]limyaael
2004-12-27 01:41 am UTC (link)
I'd also add that if the twins were reared separately from each other, or deliberately took different life-paths, having them out to be exactly the same anyway is boring. It seems to be arguing, still, that the most important thing about the character is that they're twins, not that they made certain decisions.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]cygna_hime
2004-12-27 02:00 pm UTC (link)
For that matter, they don't have to sleep together if they're the same gender, which is oddly more popular among the bad writers.

I once swore that I would never, never write twincest. I should stop swearing these things. On the other hand, anyone using the Magical Twin Bond Plot Device of Convenience is deserving of a brisk whack on the head.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]youraugustine
2004-12-27 04:59 pm UTC (link)
::grin:: What about the Magical Twin Bond That Makes Their Life/Lives Hell Due To It's Complications?

I have love for taking things and twisting them just a bit to the side.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]cygna_hime
2004-12-29 02:08 am UTC (link)
Well, that's not Plot Convenience, now is it? It's Plot Inconvenience, and perfectly OK. I also love when the Helpful!Cliches can be applied to be complete nuisances.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]venusrain
2007-07-02 08:45 pm UTC (link)
D: Does that mean I'm a bad writer for having one-sided twincest?

*snrk* The MagicKal Twin Bond of DEATH is a nuisance. Especially if your twin is slowly dying in an horrificly painful way, and you JUST HAPPEN to be within two yards of them... *sadistic giggle* [/story reference]

*knows the post is late. Also doesn't care*

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]tavalya_ra
2004-12-27 02:34 am UTC (link)
6. This was a big problem for me- not with twins, but with my dual heriones. For a long time, they were either exactly alike or one was the exact opposite of the other. Or one had mostly positives traits while the other negative. It took me awhile to figure out who they were as people (I seem to have this great ability to create a story and plot even while the protagonist is a vague figure to me) before I could really produce something I liked.

(Reply to this)


[info]raincrystal
2004-12-27 04:04 am UTC (link)
Thank you for the twin comment; I was just being annoyed by instances of that in real life. Like how everyone in this family gets my nephews each the same thing for Christmas, but in different colors. I appreciate that people want to make sure they spent the same amount of time and money on both gifts, and that it's really hard to pick a good gift for one seventeen-year-old boy, let alone two, but... they're seventeen. It's about time the family started acknowledging their individuality, but somehow we have still failed to do so. I think that really shows the way that people think about twins. Unless we're very close to one or the other, we think of them as a set.

Of course, when it comes to buying gifts, we're all uberfocused on trying to make sure that everyone has gotten a fair share of stuff and that no one feels like they got the short end of any possible stick. And that happens when authors are trying to juggle characters, too: we worry, have I given each character an appropriate amount of attention? I wonder if it's based in the idea we all have that we Must Not Exclude or Forget About either, even for one second, because that one might feel Left Out. In our determination to PROVE that we aren't slighting either one, we slight both by treating them as a pair.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

slightly ot, but--
[info]klgaffney
2004-12-27 02:37 pm UTC (link)
...oy. is that what i have to look forward to? we've sorta fallen into the same thing, different colors trap--altho we did have them each make separate decisions about what they wanted and made sure that they got it. and well, they're 5. if one has one thing, the other wants that too. but i'd hope by 17, the family will have noticed that they're each doing their own thing.

*grins* but hey, someone could happily write about the stereotypical bonded pair that doesn't feel the need to follow each other around, because hey, what's the point? they already KNOW what the other one's up to, and if one likes to adventure, the other can feel free to stay home. maybe show up and bail the other one out of prison from time to time.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: slightly ot, but--
[info]youraugustine
2004-12-27 04:57 pm UTC (link)
. . . .STOP THAT.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: slightly ot, but--
[info]klgaffney
2004-12-27 04:59 pm UTC (link)
stop what?

i was thinking about the martaen twins. honest. *INNOCENT!!*

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Re: slightly ot, but--
[info]raincrystal
2004-12-28 06:12 pm UTC (link)
Yeah, it works better when they're five, because they Each Want One... and toys for a five-year-old are much more generic. Want a toy? Of course they do!

...I think the problem now is that no one knows what to get them. They work and buy/choose their own clothes. No one knows what movies or video games they'd want, because they don't TELL us, they tell their friends. They're sullen teenagers who don't want to reveal any details about who they are and what they like, because OMG we, the family, are beneath their notice. We know who their friends are and who they're calling on their cell phones, but not what material things they want.

So yeah, I think you have that to look forward to, but you would with any teenagers. It's a symptom of their age that they just don't wanna tell you stuff.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]tasllyn
2004-12-27 09:31 pm UTC (link)
off topic, but me loves your icon! (i've recently become re-obsessed with phantom of the opera--listening to it right now, actually)

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]raincrystal
2004-12-28 06:06 pm UTC (link)
You're welcome. I've been obsessed with it since I was twelve, but now, I have good screenshots. ^_^

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]raincrystal
2004-12-28 06:07 pm UTC (link)
THANK YOU. Not "you're welcome." Why do I mix the two up so much? ^^;

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]limyaael
2004-12-29 01:21 am UTC (link)
And that happens when authors are trying to juggle characters, too: we worry, have I given each character an appropriate amount of attention? I wonder if it's based in the idea we all have that we Must Not Exclude or Forget About either, even for one second, because that one might feel Left Out. In our determination to PROVE that we aren't slighting either one, we slight both by treating them as a pair.

To some extent I'm a supporter of that idea, just because I've read too many stories where the author paid attention to NO ONE except the protagonist, meaning none of the others appeared to have motives, personalities, or lives. They had all been waiting for the protagonist. They all obsessed about the protagonist even when she was off-screen. If she wasn't in the scene, they did nothing. Etc. However, I agree that authors may need to home in on main characters more, and strike a balance in how they treat them.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]kadaria
2004-12-27 05:00 am UTC (link)
Funny this should be the next rant, I have recently been thinking about this.
I had picked up an old Star Wars Character Encyclopedia and was reading through the various bios of characters from the movies and various fan-publications.
I think I wanted to kill all 3 of Han and Leia's children as well as most of the other children featured in the Jedi Academy series. Every adventure outlined just felt so cliched to a point where I could predict what was coming next in the story's summary. Not only that but al of them had special parents or relations and abilities.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]sesana
2004-12-29 03:26 am UTC (link)
Ugh ugh ugh. Those children are so uber special, perfect and wonderful that they make my teeth hurt. One of the many reasons I stopped reading the profic.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]klgaffney
2004-12-27 02:31 pm UTC (link)
3. *nods* that's....annoying. it usually winds up being a rehash of the first book but even less engaging, because they can always flash the "my mommmy and daddy are famous" card at the first sign of conflict, and then of course, they are gratefully recieved and followed loyally as if they ARE thier parents, which makes no sense whatsoever.

i'm harboring one kid of famous parents who is currently making a point of ducking them, anything to do with them, and anything to do with the huge responsibility they intend on passing on to him. it's...interesting. he probably will end up with a case of #4, but in case there's quite a few logical reasons as to why that would be so, and it's a precident that was set well before him.

7. i know of only a few examples of the fantasy twin bonding thing done well-- [~weaselbeast's pair are one of them] but for the most part, i'd like to see that convention done away with, because urrrgh. talk about a fictional concept that likes to be applied in real life....*sigh* i find myself correcting so many annoying preconcieved ideas about my real life identical children, that it absolutely boggles my mind. that being said, i have a boy-girl pair of twins who are omg! a] not bonded in anyway other than one might expect from two kids that spent most of their childhood dogging each other's steps, and b] are not even remotely near as powerful as their famous relations. it's amazing what you can get away with when you let your characters have a personality of their own. *wry*

8. yeeeah. outside of the example you mentioned, there's very few good realistic-feeling examples of a fantasy family out there. sad, 'cause it seems like there's so much that could be done with it.


(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]limyaael
2004-12-29 01:22 am UTC (link)
3- Fantasy is so obsessed with blood that it's as though the children really are the reincarnations of their parents. They have the same abilities, after all!! They're the heirs of the thrones, after all!!! But yeah, I don't know why that's enough to command respect from people who have no tradition of loyalty to their parents and have only heard about them from songs and bedtime tales.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]paendragaan
2005-01-02 05:53 pm UTC (link)
It would be amusing if the kids tried to use the "my mommy and daddy are famous" card and just got shot down. Everyone was like "so what? you aren't your parents." I think that could be really good if done properly.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]sythyry
2004-12-27 06:43 pm UTC (link)
*grin*

Lleollelsss (a dragon, more or less) thinks she's from a happy family, though it's just her and her mother Liashatheny and some slaves. Every morning Liashatheny sets Lleollelsss some lessons, in the form of a combat with some golems or whatever that Liashatheny makes, and Lleollelsss has to keep fighting them (possibly retreating to heal herself) until they're all dead. She thinks (and I agree) that it's good training for a monster who pretty much will have to make her own way in the world by her own combat skills. The reader thinks (and I agree) that it's hideous child abuse.

(Reply to this)


[info]readerravenclaw
2004-12-27 11:50 pm UTC (link)
...except perhaps the one with the royal orphaned heir adopted by peasants who has a mysterious prophecy attached to him saying he will defeat the Dark Lord

Lately, I've been getting anxious about whether or not certain aspects of the plot of my novel are too overused to work - and this plotline is similar enough to my own that it's made me wonder, uneasily, if you'd think so poorly of my own novel.

See, the thing is that my protagonist, at the start of the story, appears to be both orphaned and randomly adopted by the equivalent of peasant family, and about midway through the story discovers that he is of royal blood, and the future heir to the throne. There are no prophecies involved, and no Dark Lords, but the protagonist is - by virture of his bloodline - the only person who can "save the world." But appearances can be deceiving, and as it turns out, the protagonist is not an orphan, has an older brother who will be the next king, and was not randomly adopted - he was deliberately placed with this specific family by an uncle for very good reasons, and his adoptive father knew most of who he really was all along.

So the real problem is not that my story is inherently cliche-ridden - at least IMO - it's that my story might appear to be inherently cliche-ridden, which is probably almost as bad. I'm hoping that the fact that he doesn't discover his royal origins until halfway through the story helps somewhat, since by then he'll have already discovered that he isn't an orphan and the real truth of how he came to be living with his adoptive family. Plus, the news that he'll be king one day does NOT thrill him, and he never has a change of heart about this, and never does end up taking the throne. But still, the "orphaned heir living with a peasant family" hits awfully close to home.

I'd love to know what you think. :)

(And to be a bit more on topic, I think that at least on the family issue I'm safely cliche-free, as my protagonist is quite happy with his "peasant" family and is strongly opposed to leaving them - a major plot thread that turns up again and again throughout th ebooks.)

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]readerravenclaw
2004-12-28 12:01 am UTC (link)
Oops - left out the most significant part of that last point. :)

The protagonist is quite happy with his "peasant" family and is strongly opposed to leaving them, but there is also plenty of tension, as the protagonist messes up very badly and causes his "peasant" family many difficulties - and his family, particular his siblings, do NOT forgive him right away, and are still holding it against him by the end of the book.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]limyaael
2004-12-29 01:25 am UTC (link)
To be honest? If I heard the plot summary, I probably wouldn't read it. Being an orphan and a key to saving the world is boring to me just because it's been done so many times. (Yes, Tolkien's Frodo was both, but his parents weren't killed in a way that he had to take revenge for, and he was the key to saving the world in a very ordinary way, and he failed in the end).

Turning him royal halfway through the story is actually more disappointing to me than the other way around. It strikes me as using the royal blood as an explanation for all the wonderful things the character has done; no mere peasant could ever do them, after all. And I've read two series now which started off with the characters pretty much typically servant-born, let them rise to be heroes, and then revealed them as royal. Both of them, in my opinion, turned out much worse than they could have.

This doesn't mean it can't be done. However, reading from the summary, good family dynamics would not be enough to overcome the clichés.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]readerravenclaw
2004-12-29 05:17 am UTC (link)
Well, he isn't actually an orphan, and he discovers that before he finds out that he's royal - and there actually is a good reason why he has to be royal, it's not just an arbitrary decision. :) But I can definitely see that the storyline seems way too much like the typical cliches... I'll have to think about what I can do to make it appear to be more original - because even if the storyline actually is original, that won't help much if readers don't pick up the book in the first place. On the other hand, the cliches are essential to the plot....

Have you ever done a rant about the cliches generally found within this kind of story? (Have you ever done a rant about royal main characters? Orphans?)

In any case, thanks for hearing me out. :)

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]ciaan
2004-12-28 02:05 am UTC (link)
My mother has a twin sister. The two of them are just sisters. Except, ya know, the same age and all.

(Reply to this)


[info]tainted4life
2004-12-28 06:25 pm UTC (link)
See, this is where I sit back and say, "I don't suck!"

Most of the families in my fantasy novels are pretty well rounded-- the protagonist has Issues with the family, but the family has Issues with the protagonist, and the problems aren't just 'jealousy' or other stupid authorial concoctions. These are people who love each other, but don't get along.

Bella's family is torn between being hella pissed at her for not contacting them in 8 years and being overjoyed that she's alive. The oldest of her younger brothers hates her guts because she just came back and "stole" her birthright back, which he'd been thinking of as his for 8 years (their birthright being a Duchy). Her grandmother hates her for DARING to think she could come back and everything would be just dandy (which she, to her credit, didn't think, which was what kept her from trying to go back). Her father is angry about having to demand that she get married as proof that she's settled down (he wanted to marry her to a Ruthrique and therefore strengthen their House's position in Parliament as well as get more money). So now she's gone and married a Vabren man, which has everybody in her family except her mother (who is Vabren) faintly disgusted because Vabren are savages! They're a 'lower race'! Watching those two behave affectionately is like watching a woman kiss a donkey! And her husband is refusing to back her up in any argument or even pretend to play by her people's social rules, because her people are refusing to acknowledge the marriage, so why should he?

...Then again, looking at my family, I could give LESSONS on dysfunction...

(Reply to this)

Really, Really Late, and you're not reading this anymore, I know...
[info]lunar_music
2007-12-26 06:00 am UTC (link)
... but I thought I'd put my two cents in, anyway.

Re #6: I've been playing around with a story for a while now where the protagonist has to go find his estranged twin sister, because their dad just died and he can't claim his inheritance unless she does, too. He's more than a little put out to find, when he does find her, that there is absolutely no Speshul Bond between them - in fact, she only agrees to go with him because there's quite a bit of money in it for her. And there's also the fact that by the time he finds her, he's a little off his rocker because he's been scrying for her in mercury, which he knows how to do safely in his shop in the city, but not so much while he's on the road.

(Reply to this)


Create an Account
Forgot your login or password?
Login w/ OpenID
English • Español • Deutsch • Русский…