Limyaael ([info]limyaael) wrote,
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Rant on explanation vs. overexplanation

First of all, happy J. R R. Tolkien’s birthday!

Second, it’s a good thing that I did the rants in the order I did, or I would have been completely confused about which one people wanted next. (There are three that are absolutely equal in the poll).



1) Walk the line with figurative language and new vocabulary. After reading Sarah Micklem’s Firethorn, I might not have been able to tell you exactly what a ‘jackman’ or a ‘cataphract’ was, but I sure as hell knew what they did. Micklem uses the terms again and again, repeating them without any obnoxious, paragraph-long explanations, characterizing both occupations in terms of their functions. If only more fantasy authors could do this, instead of going off into half-page-long spiels that identify terms they’ll only rarely return to! Since 9/10 of the action of Firethorn takes place in an army camp, both these occupations—one a nobleman’s servant in charge of everything from food to raiment, one an armored and armed nobleman of a specific number of clans devoted to the gods riding a similarly armored horse—matter and appear often. But Micklem doesn’t bother jerking the audience out of the story to present them in clinical detail. How they work for the people of her world is enough for her, and it’s that understanding that the reader comes to share.

Likewise with figurative language. Authors tread a fine line between the banal (“black as a starless night,” “blue as a summer sky”) and similes and metaphors so impossibly involved that the audience steps out of the story trying to understand them (“hair like a summer silk breeze,” “a sky that changed color like the Eiras Weintrop”). Both tend to make the readers aware of the language as language, rather than immersing them in the story. Whether irritation or confusion results, your reader’s attention wanders away from the characters and plot and world that should be enticing them.

Try to provide some context to go along with your unfamiliar terms—but only some context. In the example of the Eiras Weintrop, because I don’t know if it’s a place or a plant or a thing, I have no idea how to interpret the simile. On the other hand, neither should the author use this as an excuse to infodump on the Eiras Weintrop for a paragraph. Instead, he should quickly provide me with clues that will let me figure it out on my own: “The sky changed color like an Eiras Weintrop that had suddenly noticed it was spring.”

2) Explain laws, customs, history, backstory, and so on as they become relevant. I admit it: I tend to read fantasy exposition by skimming. When the author attempts to make me swallow a whole list of names, a whole history of a royal line, a description of a city, or whatever, I skim past it, snatch what I can, and return to reread if I think I need to know something. If I’m on page 400 and I still don’t know what rank Lord Temblor holds or why everyone defers to him, I’ll return to the infodump and look it up. (On at least a few occasions, I’ve caught authors cheating this way; for example, they insisted that the nobleman wasn’t important at first, and then elevated him in others’ eyes without mentioning why).

An easier way on everyone involved is to mention these things as they become important. If Lord Temblor ascends in rank because he fought and won a desperate battle, then mention him casually at first, then with increasing insistence, and finally detail his relevant family history, hair color, and what he likes to drink with his morning tea when you bring him back to the capital. This has a number of salubrious effects:

-It introduces the character naturally, as the other characters learn about him, without having to interrupt the story with omniscient burble. Or, if you do have to eventually go omniscient, it’s not at the beginning, when the reader’s trust in the author is still fragile and she can be knocked out of the book by a display of infodumping incompetence.
-It enables readers to remember the character more easily. Multiple small mentions will always serve better to establish Lord Temblor by his all-important speech on page 400 than one giant text block about him on page 4 and then no mentions again until 400.
-It enables the author to weave in hints and clues, especially if the story is supposed to be a mystery.
-It gives hope that the reader will not be like naughty me, and skim past that essential worldbuilding information you’ve worked so hard on.

3) Exception to the above: Explain allies and saving graces long before the end of the story. Got a mysterious country across the sea that will send ships to the aid of your king in the final battle? They better be there early on.

Have a reason that the hero can make a fourth wish, when every other wishmaker in existence has only had three? Hit it early, hit it hard.

Sending dragons with a bad allergy to spikenard against natives who live among the nard plants? That allergy should fucking show up before the dragons arrive on the spikenard fields in page 500, please.

The reason for this is simple. While laws and customs and backstory often add just a touch of color to the narrative, and the reader may not miss them if he misses them—that made sense, right?—or can go back and skim to find them, allies and saving graces are often the reason that the kingdom/hero/world survives. Fantasy is addicted to loopholes. I think it should stop being so addicted to them. But the least a fantasy author can do is make sure that they don’t appear to be deus ex machina devices, which have ruined more fantasies than I care to count.

One reason authors often err on the side of too little explanation here is because they want a surprise ending. You aren’t supposed to be able to figure out that the hero can make a fourth wish until he makes it. Yet the line here is even thinner than the one between banal and incomprehensible figurative language. “No clues” is not the same thing as “clues that the reader can put together later.” When in doubt, put in another minor explanation of the ally or the saving grace.

4) Trust that your reader can remember and follow conversations. While the author may not include enough explanation about the ending for the reader to find it in a paper bag, they tend to make sure the reader would know information the characters discuss in dialogue in a haystack. Blindfolded. With both hands cut off.

A common pattern in fantasy conversations is for the characters to discuss their problems, suggest solutions, and then set up reasons the solutions would never work. Say they are stranded out in the wilderness with knowledge of the evil uncle’s plan, but have no way to get back to the palace before the good princess’s coronation, when the uncle plans to strike, and no way to send a message, either. They talk about ways of fast travel, magic, convincing someone else to take a message for them, and so on. One by one, they discount the solutions, until they hit upon one that works.

The thing is, fantasy authors seemingly don’t trust the reader to remember all that. There will be a few paragraphs of ordinary conversation, then one devoted entirely to a character summing up what the others have just said. Like so:

“But I don’t see how we can reach the palace in seven days, never mind five,” said Elzara, tone sharp as flint. “So pardon me for disliking the idea of galloping our horses to death.”

“Pegasi could make the journey,” muttered Feltaran. His drawing in the dirt had grown quite complicated by now.

“Will you stop playing with that stupid stick and listen to what I’m saying?” Elzara yelled, knocking the twig out of his hand. “We don’t have pegasi, either!”

Orich sighed and leaned back against the tree. Our horses can’t make the journey without dying in seven days, he thought in dismay. And we don’t have any pegasi.

What the hell does Orich’s thought need to be in there for? I think the readers are capable of holding what Elzara and Feltaran said in their heads for longer than that. They just said it, after all.

Dialogue tends to explain things a lot more clearly than action or description or poetry. Conveying information is one of its primary functions, after all. So there’s no need for continual summing-up. One great explanation at the end, maybe.

But even that has its perils.

5) Avoid scenes of pure ‘explaino.’ Fantasy novels of conspiracy, politics, intrigue, mystery, and the like tend to inherit these from detective novels. There has to be a scene (or a chapter, or even two chapters) where the fantasy character currently playing detective sits everybody down and explains it all.

The main problem? It’s the same problem with the omniscient burbling in block text at the beginning. They’re boring.

Why? Because of too little explanation or overexplanation. Far, far too many fantasy political landscapes imitate the Byzantine. Even after the explaino scene, there are still lots of unanswered questions—oftentimes of pure logic, since that’s something the fantasy authors tend to ignore in favor of giving their heroes multiple chances for daring last-minute escapes. Or else, what the author reveals is what the reader knew already, because the reader’s been peering over the hero’s shoulder as he discovered it. So it serves no more function than the constant summing-up paragraphs in dialogue, except that this is the Mac Daddy of summing-up paragraphs.

One thing fantasy can do more easily than almost any other genre is have things happen. Big things, important things, things to make the reader laugh or cry or shout. So have things happen during the explaino scene. Have a villain attack the character. Have the character hog a bit of important information to himself until the last minute. (This works best in multiple-viewpoint stories, since otherwise it seems as if the author’s been having the narrator cheat or flat-out lie until the end). Have something render the explaino scene useless, my utter favorite. The character researches until he can self-righteously present the tale of the evil nobleman who’s been trying to foment rebellion…only to find out that the king knew all along, and doesn’t care, because that rebellion is the excuse he’ll use to crush the nobleman and take his lands. Why should the hero be the only one who gets to play dramatic last-minute cards? And it sets up the next book of the obligatory trilogy, too.

6) Try providing multiple character motivations. And then not explaining all of them.

As well as the summing-up paragraphs and the final explaino scenes, scenes of psychological analysis haunt fantasy. This is the one where the hero realizes that the villain has been stalking him because the hero murdered his father years ago, and “experienced in one horrible moment all the terrible pain of those years, all the grieving, all the muddy despair of days and nights.” Of course, because you are not allowed to get away with stalking the hero, and no one ever stabs him while he’s standing there experiencing all this muddy despair, the villain either has to renounce his vengeance or die by the hero’s sword. And that’s it. Another human being is reduced to a neatly painted, ultimately flat, jigsaw puzzle piece.

This is the part where fantasy secondary characters really get short shrift. They might seem to have lives apart from the heroes, nuanced characterizations, and more than one desire in life, but that collapses the moment the hero encompasses them with his Mighty Understanding. They’re not allowed to have multiple motivations, because that would be too difficult to explain.

Try not explaining them instead. The hero might think of several possible explanations when the villain tries to stab him and ultimately dies, but he’s not ever going to get the chance to ask, because afterwards the villain’s lying dead in the mud with a smile on her face. He might remember memories she confessed to him, and wonder if they were true or just part of the ploy. Don’t do this “Something told him they were real” bullshit. He might be able to come up with six or seven reasons that she waited until the book’s climax (which he doesn’t know is the book’s climax, after all; someday I must do a rant on authors giving their characters the traits of people who know they’re in a fantasy novel) to stab him. Which is right? Who knows?

This is not, oddly enough, something most readers will let you get away with on the heroes. There, they do usually want to understand, fully and completely, the people they’ve spent several hundred pages rooting for. It’s a trade-off, I suppose. Heroes get more time for their complicated motivations to be spread on the page. Secondary characters get less, but in return, you get to paint them with shadows that suggest depths, even though those depths might not actually be there.

7) Prepare well some commonly-used last-minute avenues of communication, or don’t use them. This is small, but I will mention it because it bugs me so much.

If a variation on number 6 seems likely to occur, with a character dying with his motivations multiple or unexplored, the hero often gets some word that clears things up. The dead character’s ghost appears to him, or he finds a suicide note, or he “suddenly remembers” that he heard the character whisper she loved him the final night before she tried to kill him.

The main problem with these is that they’re so clumsily used. If you’ve worked speaking to ghosts into your story from the beginning, and perhaps even had the hero and the secondary character make a pact to come back from the dead and speak to each other if one of them died untimely, it’s one thing. But introducing a convenient necromancer at the tail end of the story just so that you can make sure no end is left intriguingly untied?

Quit it.

8) Put exposition in your character’s voice. So you’ve done everything you could. You’ve woven in subtle hints, you’ve saved what you could until later in the story, and you’ve leavened scenes of pure explaino with what action and humor you can. It’s no good. You’ve still got a great big block of exposition to be digested.

Let your characters masticate it and feed it to your audience for you. (And I will now abandon that metaphor, as it’s gotten really disgusting).

First-person fantasy owns the ground here. A first-person narrator talking about his or her experiences tends to lull us into following along even if we would find it obnoxious in omniscient. This happens in Micklem’s Firethorn. The book starts with a fifteen-page prologue describing the heroine’s past, in which she was beaten by her mistress and raped by the lord of the manor, and the Kingswood where she’s fled to live for a year. I didn’t care. The details of the forest and so on didn’t bore me. I was seeing it through Firethorn’s eyes, as she related what had happened to her, not just what had happened, and that made it interesting.

Yet it can work even in third-person limited, and even in pure conversation where the character’s describing, say, the history of the world to another character. Yes, you can rescue your conversation between the Wise Old Mentor and the Dunderheaded Young Hero from its well-deserved oblivion. Make your Wise Old Mentor not a Wise Old Mentor. Make him Esaragaar, who’s been waiting for this damn prophecy to finish for three hundred years now, and has always had an eye for a pretty young woman even though his body hasn’t been holding up to most of the demands he’s placed on it. Having him mention while explaining that he knew those mountains when they were unknown, and that that dead queen who set the prophecy into motion was like a wildcat in bed, and that he hates living in his secret cave hideaway because his knees ache in the damp, can make the story his story. Far too many authors don’t do this. The information they give could come out of any character’s mouth; it really wouldn’t sound any different if it was the Dunderheaded Young Hero telling it to the Wise Old Mentor.

Your characters are usually what your readers will root for, cheer for, violently hate or love, and find fascinating. The exposition by itself is not, no matter how much you love it for its own sake. Filter it through the characters. Never forget that this should be a story, not a textbook.

Tags: fantasy rants: winter 2005, rants on style

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  • 33 comments

[info]wolfychan

January 4 2005, 03:41:26 UTC 7 years ago

As you know, Bob, that was one of the most useful rants you've ever done.

I think the biggest problem facing writers (including me) in this arena is the fear that if we let the world just tell its own story instead of spelling everything out, no one will understand it and we'll end up with a story that only makes sense to ourselves. It's a scary thing, trusting the readers.

[info]limyaael

January 6 2005, 01:41:40 UTC 7 years ago

*grin* I'm glad.

I've actually seen far more authors who don't trust their readers than ones who do. Yes, there are esoteric fantasies out there, but there are far more where so much of the fantasy is padding that I feel I can't find the actual story. I think authors should keep a sharp eye out for how often they repeat things- explanations, vocabulary terms, certain kinds of conversational tactics. That would help with more problems than just explanation. (Round about the fourth "You're jealous/I am not!/You are too!" conversation that the characters have is when I really want to smack the author).

[info]otakukeith

January 4 2005, 03:50:59 UTC 7 years ago

Likewise with figurative language. Authors tread a fine line between the banal (“black as a starless night,” “blue as a summer sky”) and similes and metaphors so impossibly involved that the audience steps out of the story trying to understand them (“hair like a summer silk breeze,” “a sky that changed color like the Eiras Weintrop”). Both tend to make the readers aware of the language as language, rather than immersing them in the story. Whether irritation or confusion results, your reader’s attention wanders away from the characters and plot and world that should be enticing them.

You mean...you mean we're not supposed to just dazzle our readers with intricate turns of phrase and the "edginess" of our alleged subject matter?! You mean we have to tell a *story*?! Surely you jest! :P

Fantasy is addicted to loopholes.

This is a very good observation. It probably comes back to the cult of super-speshul characters.

What the hell does Orich’s thought need to be in there for? I think the readers are capable of holding what Elzara and Feltaran said in their heads for longer than that. They just said it, after all.

I hate authors who can't stop repeating information that was conveyed just a few chapters ago, maybe even a few pages. Harry Turtledove does this, and it really does come off as if he thinks all his readers have the attention span of a goldfish. Maybe they do, mind you, now that I've stopped buying his books...

Have something render the explaino scene useless, my utter favorite.

Another thing George RR Martin does! People often make elaborate plans in ASOIAF, only to have them fall apart.

And that’s it. Another human being is reduced to a neatly painted, ultimately flat, jigsaw puzzle piece.

YES. YES YES YES. One-note characters = the suck.

[info]marumae

January 4 2005, 05:57:30 UTC 7 years ago

You mean we have to tell a *story*?!
*scoffs* Blashphemy

[info]saadiira

January 4 2005, 12:30:58 UTC 7 years ago

Deus Ex Machina...

Goes back further than that. It's Greek to me. :).

Yes, it's gotten that old, and tired. Anything around over a thousand years does.

And YES! George RR Martin DOES do that. Man, those books are so awesome!

-Dira-

[info]nextian

January 4 2005, 17:01:38 UTC 7 years ago

Fantasy is addicted to loopholes.

This is a very good observation. It probably comes back to the cult of super-speshul characters.


That's not true! I'm not writing a sci-fi novel entirely about exploiting loopholes in the unspoken laws of the universe! Who ever told you that?

Although my main character's job is *preventing* them being exploited, instead of doing the exploiting, so I guess that's a little different.

[info]limyaael

January 6 2005, 01:44:28 UTC 7 years ago

The idea that you absolutely have to write with metaphors and similes is one I would like to get rid of. Some of the prose that's affected me most powerfully is written like that, but other pieces aren't (like 1984), and still work.

I read the first three books of Harry Turtledove's series, can't remember the name, that was an alternate World War II fought with dragons, then gave up. Cool concept, but I didn't care about any of the characters and couldn't remember their names from month to month.

One-note characters= the suck so often because when the authors set out to make an archetype, they don't do a good job. It's not a twist on what's been done before, it's just...what's been done before.

[info]otakukeith

7 years ago

[info]zekk_skywalk

January 4 2005, 07:24:12 UTC 7 years ago

On #4....if only books could be like video game RPGs where if you actually forgot information you want to keep in mind, you can just talk to a character multiple times to hear them repeat that information. The rest of us can just continue on without a second thought.

On #8, one of the reasons Tolkien should be praised (and Peter Jackson should be respected insofar as the movies and books are similar) is that no matter what historical narrative and exposition he uses, he applies them in areas that are relevant to revealing character. I've gotten irritated more than once with a person talking about how long and expository the Council of Elrond scene is in the book, and while it may be so, people miss how in so many other scenes characters reveal information of themselves and the world's history at the same time.

Frodo: Who is she? This woman you sing of?
Aragorn: Tis the Lay of Luthien, the elfmaiden who gave her love to Beren, a mortal.
Frodo: What happened to her?
Aragorn: ...She died. Get some sleep, Frodo.

[info]limyaael

January 6 2005, 01:45:40 UTC 7 years ago

I don't mind the Council of Elrond scene at all, partially because Tolkien was some of the first fantasy I read, but also because it gets treated like a real conversation. Parts are summarized, people interrupt, the conflicting emotions of the viewpoint hobbit are described, and so on. It's much preferable to the twenty-page monologue some fantasy infodumps turn into.

[info]rachelmap

January 4 2005, 09:02:45 UTC 7 years ago

Authors that cite chapter after chapter and verse after verse without getting on with the story; they do that which is evil in the sight of the readers.

[info]criada

January 4 2005, 09:15:15 UTC 7 years ago

I agree this is one of your most useful rants. #8 is particularly useful to me. I do most of my exposition through conversations between teachers and students. At the moment I'm working with a sorcerer who came north to visit the isolated culture there. He spends time with a local girl, who is rabid for knowledge of the outside world, and he's interested in learning more about her people. So they have long conversations trading info. I've been worrying about making sure it doesn't sseem like a boring info dump. So remembering #8 will definitely help.

[info]limyaael

January 6 2005, 01:47:17 UTC 7 years ago

It takes a different kind of skill to create a story like that than the straightforward action-battle kind. I think it can still be done, though. Witness all the great stories that are just set in a single prison or room, where the characters are talking to themselves or another person or the reader- and in this case it sounds like you have open space to play with. The most gripping part of Nine Princes in Amber for me was the section where Corwin's eyes get burned out and he spends years in his cell by himself.

[info]sanguimane

January 4 2005, 10:16:24 UTC 7 years ago


There are I am persuaded to beleive, a good many historians in the world and a good number of history classes that run at schools and universities?
They are in fact numerous and well attended.
History programmes on the Television are a thriving subject, indeed, there are entire cable channels dedicated to the subject. History books sell well.

And yet the 'Fantasy reader' that wierd mayfly memoried beast, is interested solely in text that centres upon character? Like some kind of monomanical gossipy psychology professor?

Hmmm.

Discussions i have read upon Tolkien are far from gossips upon who loves who and whose motivation for what originated where!
JRR himself wrote acres of text upon the history of his world all of which has been continually in print since its first publication.

I think we are in some small danger of not checking the bathwater for babies before we throw it away?

[info]otakukeith

January 4 2005, 10:30:27 UTC 7 years ago

Well, for a start, this rant is only one person's opinion. Some people have higher tolerance for purely descriptive text.

Secondly, I don't think the point being made is that historical details shouldn't be included; just that they should be part of the story, not long pauses in it.

[info]limyaael

7 years ago

Deleted comment

[info]limyaael

7 years ago

[info]tavalya_ra

January 4 2005, 12:43:28 UTC 7 years ago

someday I must do a rant on authors giving their characters the traits of people who know they're in a fantasy novel

If my characters knew they were in a fantasy novel, some of them would be screaming "let me out!", others would start plotting my agonizing death.

Make your Wise Old Mentor not a Wise Old Mentor.

I love my cranky suicidal talking raven.

[info]saadiira

January 4 2005, 12:43:32 UTC 7 years ago

Tolkien kinda drives me nuts, too.

But, I do recognize its impact, and greatness. I also recognize that the style was far more en vogue when he used it.

That being said, if the world is interesting, I don't generally mind long explanations, and descriptions. If they're well done. I don't tend to skim, though. And I almost never go back.

One of the things that kills me the worst, frankly, is too LITTLE description. I tend to feel as if I've been set adrift, and find myself trying to puzzle out what the heck is going on, at the expense of pondering the characters, and the rest of the story at hand. It can be as simple as an odd vocabulary word, or as complex as too little information about an entire area or set of creatures. Here I am, looking at this thing that's supposed to be good, or bad, or whatever, and wondering why. Or seeing this odd word that is definitely NOT in Websters pop up over and over, and not see anything contextually to really define what the HECK is being spoken of. And it's apparently important. Plus, the writer drones on as if of COURSE I'll understand. I get things easily, so when I don't, I'm going to err on the side of the writer isn't giving me enough here.

I don't mind a bit of omniscient, when it's done well. I don't even mind the odd block of text about the city, the country, the government, if it follows in logically. But, I do mind when a writer drones on and on about the wonderfullness or wonders of such and such, and so and so, instead of showing it TOO frequently.

What I suppose I'm saying is a bit of balance is ok. If a description of the area is particularly well said, and even thorough, I don't mind it included at the beginning of the chapter, IE, where the characters arrive in that area. I feel that that can actually help draw me in, and give me a good sense of where I'm supposed to be with this story, of what I might be seeing.

I also don't mind getting away from first person.

If they can make me care in third, in fact, I'm really happy with them.

-Dira-

[info]yesthatnagia

January 4 2005, 23:39:35 UTC 7 years ago

Re: Tolkien kinda drives me nuts, too.

Ditto. I don't skip much, and I don't tend to go back and re-read.

Too much description of place and clothing drives me insane. I hate it.

But when people start throwing world-building references in, like metaphors/similes that the characters would use, I like it. I LIKE to see signs of people in fantasy characters. I like seeing fantasy characters make assumptions or off-color jokes that depend on knowledge of the culture. It's an action against the "as you know, Bob..." crap.

And because I write what I like to read... Well, let's just say that I worry that my fantasy worlds are impossible to understand. But I think all of us world-builders worry about that...

[info]limyaael

7 years ago

[info]klgaffney

January 4 2005, 14:00:49 UTC 7 years ago

*glee!* this rant and the one previous absolutely rock the house. *pets them*

on this one, since i've noticed a slight disagreement as to reader preference---well. it kinda also depends on what audience/what style of writing you're leaning towards. personally, i'm tired to death of your basic third-grade reading level super simple best seller style of writing, where there's only one level of thought and it's simply expressed, and god knows, i'm not going to write that way. i prefer to give my audience some credit for brains, and dammit, i want to write a story that I'D enjoy reading.

hazards involved so far is that a] not everyone Gets It. (which is somewhat disappointing, but they do still enjoy the story on a fantasy adventure/romance level, which is also good. i don't want to abandon half the audience altogether) and b] worse, sometimes they misinterperate entirely. *sigh* but. via comments, i can usually go back and tweak something here or there until it comes clear, or explain in my response and make a mental note to rework a line or two. because really, sometimes a single line or even word usage can put everyone on the same page you are. ....i really have a demented fascination with this right now. how non-explanatory can i get of someone's emotions and thought processes and still have everyone on board. *glee* ahem.

i figure, hey. i could always gather up my worldbuilding notes and write one of those exaustive encyclopedias of the world and how it functions later. =p

[info]saadiira

January 4 2005, 15:09:09 UTC 7 years ago

Well Written...

Does not mean impossibly complex and impossible to "Get". I am also sick unto death of the third grade dumbening of fiction styled novels. They bore me unto tears.

What I hate almost as much, however, is when a writer talks over the heads of the readers, and gets completely esoteric in ways that only he or she is going to fathom, then does not explain them so that the reader might be privy to the secrets.

If I wanted to read a six hundred page metaphor for something entirely else, I'd do it (And make sure to pick someone who'd done it right, besides). In fantasy, I'd much rather see a good plot, great descriptions, thorough characterization, and decent structure, along with vocabulary usage suitable for something well beyond the fifth grade.

The self indulgent, uberesoterica does not come across to me as smart, even when I get it, which I will, if there's enough there to do so. It's actually rather insulting, IMHO.

[info]klgaffney

7 years ago

[info]saadiira

7 years ago

[info]klgaffney

7 years ago

[info]limyaael

January 6 2005, 01:55:08 UTC 7 years ago

I think there'll probably always be differences of reader opinion. My experience is based mostly on what were/are the dominant trends in the fantasy I've read, and those were description everywhere, so lush it choked me. I haven't actually read many fantasy novels that didn't give me good pictures. (Science fiction, on the other hand...)

And then there are people who really like the lushness. I like it in poetry (Swinburne and Keats). And there are authors who can make it work, just like there are authors who can make omniscient voice work. I do get puzzled when I see people defending description for its own sake, though. I don't think there's any part of writing that's inherently good, all the time, and that includes description.

Deleted comment

[info]limyaael

January 6 2005, 01:56:00 UTC 7 years ago

Re: Went ahead and friended you, btw...

That's fine. I'm glad you're enjoying the rants. (I proceeded to ignore most of my own advice on my own NaNo. The result was mixed, to say the least).

[info]sanguimane

January 5 2005, 10:51:32 UTC 7 years ago


The point of fiction is to appear to the reader as non fiction. If it does not then it would seem to have utterly failed. Historical non fiction is read by persons seeking the true story or an interesting speculation about events assumed to be at least partially factual. Fantasy is supposedly read by persons seeking the illusion of a true story that is convincing as at least partially factual. The mechanisms of delivery cannot be assumed to be so very different, hence the comparison. The difference is that no one leaves historical facts out of a history for fear that the poor thick witted reader won't comprehend them even thogh the writer mysteriously can.

Fantasy is in a particularly invidious position as it has to convince an onlooker that its unreal absurdities are in fact present and corporeal.
How that can be acheived by simplistic labelling of objects I cannot imagine, UNLESS, and here we come to an interesting thesis, that this difficulty is the very engine that runs the mysterious dearth of imagination that plagues the genre.

Proposition: That the publisher assumes that the reader is a moron and treats them accordingly, therefore the poor things can't be taxed by writers that write 'over their heads' (as if anything written by anyone whatsoever wouldn't be over someone's head!). It follows therefore that an easily labelled pre digested image, intellectual pablum, will serve best, hence the indescribable repetitions of 'imagination-less fantasy', something that should in fact be a contradiction in terms.

It should by rights be impossible to introduce something into a 'Fantasy' without describing it because if you don't need to then it must necessarily be unoriginal.

That none do is symptomatic of how many have fallen into the idea that books are written to be the mental equivilant of a warm bath.
Anyone truly plunged into an alien new world would spend all their time completely perplexed unless of course everyone spoke English and a talking Unicorn trotted into the woods along with a goblin and an elf. Then they'd know where they were.
But if they 'knew where they were' that easily they could not be 'in an original fantasy'!

I have never been able to fathom why it is insulting to assume that ones reader is capable of perfectly comprehending anything one writes no matter how complex the mighty brain of the writer may have made it, whereas it is NOT insulting to assume that a reader will balk like a startled bunny at anything 'difficult' and must be spoon fed a watered version of the pure outpouring in case their poor little minds cannot take it.

[info]saadiira

January 5 2005, 20:33:05 UTC 7 years ago

I think that I need to clarify.

I was referring to truly self indulgent esoterica, and copping out from actually finishing up a concept with deliberate vagueness, not warm baths.

My response is a bit long:

On Vagueries and Self Indulgence





[info]limyaael

January 6 2005, 01:59:11 UTC 7 years ago

Well, no. Fiction isn't indistinguishable from real life, and neither should it be. If fiction were meant to be indistinguishable, many more fantasy books would have to portray:

-every tiny hesitation and slip-up in speech, which can be listened to with relative ease but is trying to read.
-every time the characters relieved themselves or scratched an itch or brushed their teeth, again details that most people aren't interested in reading about.
-every character's every thought, which is impossible (how many people even understand their own minds well enough to do that?)
-every smell, taste, and sound, also impossible.

Really, it would have to include visuals, the way a movie does, but even that isn't a perfect comparison. Movies are edited constructions of reality. So are books. People grant leeway to fiction for just that reason.

Using such a strict standard as this, every piece of fiction ever written fails. But then, that's not what their authors were usually trying to achieve.

[info]saadiira

7 years ago

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