Limyaael ([info]limyaael) wrote,
@ 2005-01-24 18:19:00
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Current mood: content
Entry tags:fantasy rants: winter 2005, world-building: culture

Rant on music
Ah, on to music in fantasy. Once again, as with clothes, this is going to be about general things, since I can’t tell you exactly what kind of music was played at ancient Greek festivals or whether the people in your alternate-England shouldn’t be enjoying a certain style of music because that would have to be alternate French. (Those kinds of things are researchable. But I am a) lazy, and b) interested more in researching poetry).



1) Not every character’s voice has to be compared to music. Other than generic words such as “soft,” “harsh,” and so on, the most common adjectives attached to fantasy characters’ voices tend to be ones from music. “Musical” itself and “silvery” are right up there, with “flute-like” or “fluting” not far behind.

This is irritating. I can recall my intense disappointment the first time I heard what I knew was a flute by itself, and realized it didn’t sound at all like a human voice.

“But it could be an elven voice!” someone will shout out now from the audience, and I will hit that person over the head. Because, at this point, the “silvery” elven voice, the “musical laughter” of the hero’s love interest, and the “fluting tones” of the Mother Goddess are all equally clichéd. The author wants to make them special. The problem is, they can’t be special when there are thousands and thousands of other descriptions out there just like them.

Only way to reclaim this: either go for a strictly unusual comparison—what about a dragon’s voice sounding like drums, and that being reflected in the rhythm of its speech?—or note that the character’s voice really does resemble the instrument, and that’s eerie. I don’t know about you, but I would get slightly freaked out if someone who really did sound like a piano chose to address me.

2) Put some damn limits on the power of musical magic. The only system of magic to get more of a work-out is elemental magic, where mages can suddenly do thousands of things that seem entirely unrelated to water, earth, air, fire, and whatever other elements the author’s included. This is because a lot of beginning fantasy authors latch on to that system first. They don’t think past the immediate clichés to do something new with it. Nor do they respect the limits. Their characters have to be able to do anything, so anything they get to do.

It seems that way with magical singers, too. Someone wounded? No problem, the singer will sing them well again! Someone needs to find a hidden door? No problem, the bard has a song that will open it! The bad guy’s rushing at them? No problem, the harpist just strums a little, and the bridge collapses beneath his feet!

Look. No, don’t look over at that tempting panoply of magical singers, look here. This has to be restricted somehow. Music may soothe the savage breast, sure, but it should not also be able to do anything else it likes with the breast.

Put some hedges around this the same way that you would around any other magical system. Start with the obvious disadvantages. A singer has to be able to sing. (Do not take that cheating route where the singer can sing in her head and still accomplish as much as she could with her voice. A mental version of a tune may be quite complex, but it’s not the same thing as the physical song that’s been the conduit of the magic so far). What happens if her enemies gag her or cut out her tongue? If her magic comes from playing an instrument, one crack of the bad guy’s hammer on a few sensitive fingers and bye-bye musical future. Fantasy villains often have their reasons for not killing the heroine—not to say that I don’t think those reasons are often contrived for maximum angst and minimum actual harm—but if so, they shouldn’t knowingly leave her able to wield her magic against them. And, again, no cheating! It doesn’t count if the heroine gets her fingers broken on day 1, bound on day 2, and is able to play again on day 3. For one thing, as most people will tell you, broken bones take a lot longer to heal than that. For another, fingers are delicate; someone may heal enough to still grip things with her hands, but intricate playing on a harp may be quite out of the question.

For another, what about tying specific kinds of instruments or specific kinds of song to specific results? Perhaps someone can only cast a sleeping spell with a lullaby, and if he just knows ballads, he’s shit out of luck. Perhaps another kind of magic works best with a full symphony orchestra, all right with about half the orchestra, and not at all if a single musician is trying to work it on her own.

Use any limits you can. Magical musicians who can do anything are just as boring as telepathic mages or elemental mages or destiny-chosen mages who can do anything.

3) Make music of some kind other than heroic songs part of the festival celebrations. This is something I almost mentioned in the holidays rant, but decided to leave for later. Now I know what it was missing. There are plenty of fantasy authors who do locate music in scenes of country fairs, or coronations, or court entertainments. But they’re always what I would call, loosely, “heroic songs,” telling about ancient rulers to infodump the fantasy world’s history, or prophecies that will turn out to be important to the hero’s future. They’re one of the sneakier ways of getting information across, sure, and if the author’s a talented songwriter and goes about it the right way (see point 4, please), they can be enjoyable. But no other kind of music ever shows up.

Please. People in our own pre-modern period didn’t only sing about heroes and kings, however large a part those were of the tradition. There were also:

-Lullabies.
-Prayers/hymns.
-Ballads that might relate some event of only local interest, or a mythological one that wasn’t strictly tied back to identifiable history, the way that a lot of fantasy heroic songs are.
-Lore verses (such as keeping alive knowledge of herbs, flowers, certain colors).
-Poems set to music.
-‘Love songs’ (though that definition is not really the same as our own; see point 4, again).
-Humorous songs, including bawdy ones.
-Laments and elegies.
-Children’s nonsense verses.

All of these are expressions of the human spirit. All of them would work. If there are several children having a naming-day party, there might be songs that would appeal primarily to children sung, and then a lullaby to put them to bed. I would despise an author who took the occasion to chant the prophecy to a bunch of five-year-olds, and then had the future main character go through the “somehow, he felt deeply drawn to the song” thing, while the rest of the children are more occupied in playing with their toys. It’s so obvious and cheap an excuse to have the prophecy in there early.

Likewise, laments would fit well at funerals, prayers and hymns for religious occasions, love songs at a wedding or a courtship scene—why not have the hero serenade the heroine with something other than the prophecy?—lore verses for a rite of initiation, ballads for celebrations of a certain town’s special event, and humorous songs for a nonsense celebration along the lines of our own April Fool’s Day.

4) If you’re going to write your own fantasy songs, please avoid the pop music model. It just doesn’t sound right. It expresses sentiments that are too often modern, in distinctly twentieth-century or twenty-first-century language, and with a huge dose of mawkishness. Here’s a song that I wrote for a parody story:

So don’t let me down,
Don’t let me see you frown,
Always brighter tomorrow, someday,
In a good way…


Ouch. I’d forgotten how awful that was. *scrubs brain*

Can you imagine a fantasy maiden singing that in all earnestness as she walks along? I can’t, sorry. She may sing something that is as insipid, in its own way, but it won’t have a) phrases like “don’t let me down,” b) references to situations that could only work in the modern world, or c) that succession of vague phrases and metaphors that mark a pop song doomed to vanish in two months and never to be remembered again. Fantasy songs, especially ones in a culture that is predominantly oral, will usually be made to endure. If this maiden is singing something that a respected old balladeer made up, it will not sound like this. It may if she’s singing something she made up herself, but in that case, please have her be embarrassed about her efforts, not proud of them. And, in that case, though it might have c), it still should not have a) or b).

For the difference between modern love songs and pre-modern ones, go back and read pre-modern ballads and poetry. It’s the best education you can have. See what kinds of metaphors are used, what kinds of rhyme patterns—one reason I snicker uncontrollably at the lyrics of many songs is my exposure to pre-modern and much better-written songs—and what the lovers tend to concentrate on. Usually, it is not crying that their parents have grounded them and now they can’t attend the prom with Johnny.

5) If the song is the climax of a scene, it should be thrilling. This might not seem like such a problem. After all, most fantasy authors like to describe, and here’s a perfect chance to go into a cascade of metaphors about the music that would do credit to a character with synesthesia. What’s the problem?

The problem is that quite a lot of fantasy author descriptions fizzle on the page when it comes to this. The same way that an author can write about a battle and make it the most deadly boring thing in the world if she doesn’t do it right, someone can write about a grand song that is the climax of a whole book and send her readers straight to sleep.

In general, watch your descriptions like a hawk. For music descriptions:

--Include lyrics only if you’re absolutely sure of them. (Point 4, again. Memorize it, learn it, love it).
--Make the descriptions grand and thrilling. A song that would only be suitable for a hero to sing to his love on some day thirty years in the future when they’re both tired doesn’t deserve that much description. Nor does it deserve to stand at the climax of a book, frankly.
--Fit the music in with the occasion and the setting. If it’s a funeral where the person who died is mourned and will be much missed, why the fuck is the bard singing a happy song? (Point 3, again). If this is an alternate France, sing music that sounds like it could be French, or at least a translation of alternate French into English. (Guy Gavriel Kay does a pretty good job with this in A Song for Arbornne, although there he’s not dealing strictly with France, but with an alternate Provencal). If the music is battle-music, make it damn martial. (Good example: Finrod and Sauron struggling with music in Tolkien’s Silmarillion.)
-Be specific about the placement of the musician(s) and what instrument(s) are being used. Sometimes, it’s necessary to visualize the scene. Sometimes, it’s a matter of practicality. If the bard has to sing a magical song to fell the Dark Lord, would he really be standing over in the corner of a room with bad acoustics and whispering the lyrics?

And finally:

6) Learn what’s involved in the care of any instruments your heroes bring along. Strung instruments like harps will go out of tune; the heroes will need to check them regularly. Most instruments should have cases, or the wet and dirt and other hardships of a typical fantasy journey could destroy them. If a hero falls off a horse and his case is beneath him, your more alert readers will want an explanation of how the instrument survived, or at least have the hero patting frantically around to check that it did. Huge instruments like grand pianos are going to be a bitch to transport.

About voices: If the hero’s been screaming for a while, has a dry throat, or has been running, he’s not going to be at his best to sing. Likewise for hands if he’s been traveling in the cold without protection. These are the best kinds of details to make your fantasy journey “real,” since they don’t take much time to mention, they’re easy to research, and they’re not disgusting to read about or so joltingly lyrical they throw the reader out of the story.

These will vary depending on the instrument in question and the conditions surrounding the heroes. But try to make notes of them.



The rant on narrative fantasy poetry is next, and then a new set will start.




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[info]luna_manar
2005-01-24 11:34 pm UTC (link)
Limyaael: Have you ever read Madeline L'Engle's A Swiftly Tilting Planet?

Setting aside the blatant Christian undertones for a moment, I thought the use of the chant/song in that book was quite well-done. Each chapter name was a line of the poem, and the chapter itself would reflect that line in some way. The song itself has no power unless the person saying it understands completely what it means, and the way it comes together at the climax of the book, I thought, was very well-executed.

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[info]limyaael
2005-01-24 11:37 pm UTC (link)
Yes, I read it when I was about 11 or so. That was a period of my life when I didn't really pay attention to the Christian stuff (I just didn't notice it), and I still retain a lot of affection for it. I still remember a few of the poem's lines.

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[info]tabicetas
2005-01-24 11:54 pm UTC (link)
I'd love seeing a full orchestra do musical magic. Each section could be responsible for different parts of a spell: percussion for stability, basses and celli to provide the core, violins to do the main bulk of the spell, and woodwinds to fine-tune the magic. Or something.

For point number six, singers can't even sing well after they've eaten certain foods. It'd be interesting to have a battle scene after dinner, and the singer can't work her magic because her vocal chords won't cooperate. I've never seen anything happen to all of these musical magicians when they're out of tune, or botch a rhythm, or miss a note. I can't imagine that the results would be pleasant, yet they're never shown.

I do have a race whose voices are described as silvery, but they actually have metal vocal chords, and their voices freak most people out. The entire overtone series is wrong in their voices, as compared to 'normal' ones.

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[info]beccastareyes
2005-01-25 12:04 am UTC (link)
Hevaens, yes. Not to mention what an upper respiratory infection does to the human voice. I was in choir in high school, and our teacher told us in the weeks before a concert, we better be extra careful to have lots of vitamins and wash our hands a lot, because of the risk of colds.

This didn't stop me muddling my way through dosed up on cold medicine.

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(no subject) - [info]tabicetas, 2005-01-25 12:21 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]angevin2, 2005-01-25 12:26 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]farmercuerden, 2005-01-26 02:21 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]criada, 2005-01-25 09:29 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]tabicetas, 2005-01-25 12:37 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]criada, 2005-01-25 07:57 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]jmeadows, 2005-01-25 12:10 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]frenchpony, 2005-01-25 02:56 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]jmeadows, 2005-01-25 03:02 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]criada, 2005-01-25 07:59 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]aurorae90, 2005-01-25 10:28 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2005-01-27 03:35 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]onyxflame, 2006-03-09 06:38 am UTC
Harry Potter Sue Comic
[info]isdestroyer
2005-01-25 12:28 am UTC (link)
I just found this link to a comic making fun of Mary Sues in Harry Potter. I didn't know where else to post this so here it is.

http://piratemonkeysinc.com/ms1.htm

Hmm, I can post links here, Right?
I apologize again for being off topic.

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Re: Harry Potter Sue Comic
[info]limyaael
2005-01-27 03:37 am UTC (link)
I've seen the comic before, but I'd lost the link. Thank you for posting it again!

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Re: Harry Potter Sue Comic - [info]isdestroyer, 2005-01-27 06:43 am UTC
Re: Harry Potter Sue Comic - [info]kjkhyperion, 2007-02-28 01:23 am UTC

[info]youraugustine
2005-01-25 12:51 am UTC (link)
Ahh, music, my first love.

May I add?

If you are going to use musical terminology make sure y'damn well know what you're saying. I will never forget how much I blinked when McCaffrey went on about the "horribly difficult dynamics that change every bar".

Dynamics are how loud or soft a bit is. The only kind of music that has dynamic changes every bar that would actually be difficult is something out of the distressed mind of a twentieth century abstractist. And even then, not so much that three master musicians would be complaining about it.

Tempo or metre changing every bar, however, is both very very difficult and would also still be the kind of music one would find in a society like that.

And people will notice.

Large parts of the Winter Leaving 'verse magic are based on the human voice (I posted an example recently). The kind of voice limits the kinds of things they can do (Magher, for instance, is a necromancer. This requires the kind of voice she has, the kind of training she has, enough time uninterrupted to set up the spell, etc, etc).

And I acknowledge that not everyone knows or really needs to know enough to be able to say that faux bourdon is a style from France mimicking a style from England in the mid-Renaissance, but I would appreciate it if people writing in a mediaeval environment would do some basic research about the kind of music they'd be dealing with, which is very different from what we consider "normal" nowadays.

. . .end ramble.

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[info]tabicetas
2005-01-25 01:37 am UTC (link)
Um... If you want to get really technical, there are very few passages where you shouldn't be changing dynamics, at least subtly. Music is always supposed to be going somewhere, and one of the most effective ways to do that is through small dynamic changes - crescendoing on long notes to add intensity, diminuendoing before ending a phrase. McCaffrey probably wasn't thinking of that, true, but the point still holds. On the other hand, I've never seen a piece that changes its time signature every measure. I'd probably cry if I did, especially if it's going between a metre counted in duple and triple time.

But I agree completely that research whenever you're using music (or phsyics, or anything else you don't know about) is important.

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(no subject) - [info]youraugustine, 2005-01-25 01:43 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]frenchpony, 2005-01-25 03:01 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]farmercuerden, 2005-01-26 02:33 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]tabicetas, 2005-01-26 03:16 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2005-01-27 03:40 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]youraugustine, 2005-01-27 03:52 am UTC

[info]larathia
2005-01-25 12:57 am UTC (link)
I do have a song-mage among my stock set; the theory behind what he does is that music is mathematical, and forces can be represented in mathematical equations.

So he doesn't sing "songs" or even "melodies" when he's casting spells, and he can't really improvise on the fly - each spell he creates is the product of pages and pages of mathematical equations translated into musical notation, and it's holding that whole equation in his head while he sings that creates the magical effect.

To be a song-mage via this system, he had to have perfect and absolute pitch, with a musical ear that matches an electronic tuner for accuracy, because to be off the true note in the slightest will change the results. However, he doesn't have to sing it - he can hum it, or play it on an instrument if the instrument is properly tuned.

He can use this in battle - at least, from the edges of one - owing to many years of operatic vocal training and field work as a bard. (Nothing like managing to sing a ballad acceptably with a chest cold in order to get a place to sleep to really make things tricky.) For the most part he uses song magic for personal convenience - cleaning spells around the house, or something more practical in a fight, like summoning a weapon to his hand, or a shield. Most people decide it's much more effective to take up, say, sword training, than meet the requirements for a field of magic where the payout is so variable. (My song mage only does it because he's a very dedicated musician - for him it was a natural progression of things he was doing anyway.)

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[info]hyzenthlay
2005-01-25 01:38 am UTC (link)
I may not much care for the author... but even so, I must grudgingly admit that LE Modesitt's Spellsong Cycle is actually decently realistic about the limits of his soprano sorceress and her voice, the difficulties of having to sing on tune and the fact that, since music is magic, no one makes songs for beauty, just as tools- he does know his musicians.

I loved point #6- about the care of instruments. It's incredible the number of musicians who carry along their stringed instruments, and at a sign of trouble they whip it out and play out a spell- without having to check that the strings haven't slipped, never mentioning having to take along extra strings in case they break, etc.

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[info]limyaael
2005-01-27 03:42 am UTC (link)
Instruments and horses are the two great victims of what passes for "reality" in fantasy, I think. Everyone's horses should be dead by the time most authors consider resting them, and everyone's instruments should be warped or out of tune or destroyed beyond repair by the time authors deign to notice them.

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[info]shanra
2005-01-25 01:40 am UTC (link)
(first off, my apologies if I screw up English musical terms. ^-^; )

1) They can't be special if the author ends up comparing people to instruments that do not exist in the speaking viewpoint's character either. ;) Not sure if I've done that. I hope not, because I find it more annoying than clichéd statements.

2) I was hoping you'd address this point. ^-^ I do believe that magic that powerful can be done well, and I purposefully made the choice of using it. However, as you point out here, it comes with limitations. Most of them stem from common sense.

If your magic depends on, say, voice, how can your character cast two spells at the same time? Combine them? How? And why doesn't it create another effect entirely?

If your magic depends on the physical aspect (like mine does), what happens if your character is off by, I don't know, half a tone? Half a second? That's going to have reprecussions, so you'd better have your characters be extremely talented (or trained) or have a very solid explanation why it still works the way the character wanted it to.

One of the limits I particularly enjoyed implementing/discovering in regards to thesae (read - form of magic that uses voice the way scientists use precision.) is that which spells you can use depend on background and build.

Background: Farmers won't learn the same spells hunters do. What use is being scentless on a field of crops? Likewise, what good is making soil more fertile when you're a fisher?)

Build: Every person can handle only so much magic. If your body can't take the amount it takes to destroy a bridge (to continue on your example), then you'll never be able to do it.

Likewise - and forgive me for jumping back to general commenting so abruptly - if the spells depend on the height of the tone, a bass will not be able to cast a spell that requires him reaching notes that he can't. (the complaining of the guys in my music class spring to mind: "We can't sing that! It's too high!")

Or what if your magic depends on such things like volume and your character doesn't believe she can sing or doesn't like being the centrepoint of attention? The moment they get into that tight spot she could get them out of by singing loudly, she'll be useless for... oh, I don't know, probably long enough for said spot to make mince meat of your characters. ^-^;

I'll let that part of the topic rest now. ^-^; I think I could rant and ramble on for quite some time. *directs ranting towards own magic instead*

3) Or make instrumental music. Not every piece had vocals. The music at banquets usually didn't. Or at least I've yet to see a piece that did and isn't from modern times.

6) Ah, you touch upon one of my largest problems here - durability. Talking (or screaming) too long makes you lose your voice. Similar to what you've already said, but not as fast fixed, I think.

Another question is which instruments are appropriate. It's similar to the matter of style, I suppose, and which does require authors to do research. The level of technology (or magic) in a culture does influence instruments. Think about a synthesizer or a keyboard; there is no way that they could exist in a world that doesn't have the technology to produce them.

Unless that world was a post-apocaliptic one, perhaps. In which case, the darn things would still need a power source and someone willing to learn how to use them. Either way - it'll be a long, long time before the characters can use them. And if the instruments aren't unusable already, there is a high chance that that's what the characters would because they don't have a clue what they're doing.

In any case, had been looking forward to this rant. Especially considering the way dersaee view music and my constant troubles getting their view to rhyme with another.

You pointed out a couple of limitations on magic that I overlooked for some vague reason. I'm very grateful for that. ^-^ And I'm just as grateful for the limitations that writing this reply made me more aware of than I was before.

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[info]eisoj5
2005-01-25 02:02 am UTC (link)
I feel so musically inadequate reading this rant. I mean, I spent time in middle school band, I played the piano for thirteen years...and there's just So Much about music I simply don't know or understand. Which is probably why I'm not really planning to include it in my story terribly much.

Still, it fascinates me anyway. And I want to see some fantasy hero lugging a keyboard or something around instead of a lute, or harp, or flute, or whatever. It would amuse me greatly. Plus, it would offer a greater range of music, wouldn't it, what with chords and one hand harmonizing and all?

(Also, I've friended you on my world/story journal, [info]kahlurs for easy access to your rants while I'm over there. You certainly don't have to friend [info]kahlurs back by any means, but I would love any comments or whatever you could offer in your copious ;) free time. Which would actually require you to friend that journal, but of course, that's at your discretion.)

-josie

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[info]limyaael
2005-01-27 03:44 am UTC (link)
Learning to speed-read and add touching little details is just right, I think. No, no one will know everything about music; by the time that you researched it all, you'll just need to know everything about something else. But if there's a very specific problem, one can always ask someone who is an expert in that area.

(I've friended back. Thanks for letting me know! I've been running around like a chicken with its head cut off the whole week. I owe several people comments on stories. Hopefully I'll manage to pull myself together this weekend. I really would like to read it; it's assignments coming down like rain that make it difficult).

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(no subject) - [info]robling_t, 2005-01-27 10:31 am UTC

[info]ariescelestial
2005-01-25 02:18 am UTC (link)
For point #3 I like George R.R. Martin's series. I started reading it because you recommended it in one of your earlier posts...I've been stalking for a while. ^^;

But his series is neat in regards to the fantasy music because it's the first time I saw a variety in the themes for songs. There's "The Ruins of Castamere" (sp); "The Bear and the Maiden", which is just silly; and the hymns they sing for their gods. I can't remember right now if any of the hymns were given a title.

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[info]limyaael
2005-01-27 03:45 am UTC (link)
I was actually thinking of him quite a bit, but I thought people were sick of hearing me babble about him, so I didn't.

I can't remember hymn titles, either. But they might have very simple, descriptive ones- "Hymn for the Healing of a Child" or some such.

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#3
[info]illian
2005-01-25 02:33 am UTC (link)
I read a book ages ago where they had magical musicians. The undefeated champ of them was this little old lady who used songs the educated court musicians didn't know how to counter.

The music? Shanties and ribald songs. =)

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Re: #3
[info]saadiira
2005-01-25 11:52 am UTC (link)
Now, that's really cute. Do you recall the title of the book?

-Dira-

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Re: #3 - [info]limyaael, 2005-01-27 03:45 am UTC

[info]nextian
2005-01-25 02:43 am UTC (link)
Yes. I love how serendipitously your rants are always timed. I just got home from my upright bass lesson, so this makes a LOT of sense to me.

For another, fingers are delicate; someone may heal enough to still grip things with her hands, but intricate playing on a harp may be quite out of the question.

OMGWTFYES. Two weeks ago, I burned one finger on my right hand. The blister popped pretty rapidly, and within five days I was out of bandages and left with only a scab. I couldn't play the bass until YESTERDAY without shooting pains going through my fingers. It was even more present with more finger-oriented instruments, like when I tried to pick up my guitar and finger a tune, and had to stop because the pain was making me want to pass out.

And this is with a minor second-degree burn on one finger. Imagine a broken hand. Wow.

) Learn what’s involved in the care of any instruments your heroes bring along. Strung instruments like harps will go out of tune; the heroes will need to check them regularly.

Any instrument with a wooden body--guitars, harps, lutes, the usual run of fantasy instruments--will warp in cold and are hard to carry without heavy cases for protection. You can't play an upright bass when the temperature's under 20 degrees Farenheit; it's fatal to the instrument. Likewise, although less so, for smaller stringed instruments. I want to see more scenes where the apprentice harper leaves the instrument out in the cold, or is up playing it until the "wee hours of the morning," and then discovers it's been warped beyond repair and is unplayable.

Can you imagine a fantasy maiden singing that in all earnestness as she walks along? I can’t, sorry. She may sing something that is as insipid, in its own way, but it won’t have a) phrases like “don’t let me down,” b) references to situations that could only work in the modern world, or c) that succession of vague phrases and metaphors that mark a pop song doomed to vanish in two months and never to be remembered again.

Yes, partially, I agree. (And that example? OUCH.) But I think it's possible to create an urban fantasy or the like where GOOD pop music fits right in. It's all dependent on whether you can actually write lyrics that scan or not. (And poetry doesn't count, Brian Jacques. Internalize this.)

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[info]reinderrocr
2005-01-25 09:57 am UTC (link)
On the other hand: I have played, and even recorded music, with a broken hand. It was the most disciplined playing I ever did, but I could play (metacarpal bone of the right pinky was broken, but I play with a pick anyway).

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(no subject) - [info]nextian, 2005-01-25 03:01 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2005-01-27 03:51 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2005-01-27 03:50 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]nextian, 2005-01-27 04:04 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]onyxflame, 2006-03-09 06:55 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]sinande, 2009-01-28 06:20 pm UTC

[info]fanfare
2005-01-25 02:44 am UTC (link)
I try to avoid music unless it's nessicary for a character's job. A non-magical bard or songtress, dancer or whatever, could have singing. But otherwise... I'm tired of all these people that can sing to the heavens and bewitch people with their voices.

I know where a lot of the "teenybopper" magical music powers come from. Final Fantasy X-2 spawned a lot of that, from what I've read in fanfiction. The songstresses in that can kill, curse, blind, poison, stop, slow, speed up, make things deaf, confuse, put to sleep and do various other things with their voices. After the game came out, I saw a HUGE raise in musical-based fanfiction in many fandoms. And Songstress class characters are actually really annoying to deal with.

A character from Watase Yuu's Ayashi no Ceres series, Shuro, had magical powers that had to do with her voice. But hers were extremely rare, and she wasn't fully aware of them until she was eighteen. Whenever she sang, it had the power to boost the emotions of a character around her, like if she sang a sad song, the people around her would feel sad. However... she nearly killed herself and many people singing a very sad song when her best friend in the world died. Literally almost destroyed her soul and body with the music. And she didn't really sing much since, or use her powers.

I dunno, I'm just blabbering 0_o

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[info]tasllyn
2005-03-24 01:49 am UTC (link)
ok--it's obviously time for me to rewatch that anime. or is that in the manga? cause--i really don't remember that right now...

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[info]fleurrochard
2005-01-25 05:00 am UTC (link)
Strung instruments like harps will go out of tune; the heroes will need to check them regularly. Most instruments should have cases, or the wet and dirt and other hardships of a typical fantasy journey could destroy them.

Yep. Plus, under certain conditions instruments like harps and lutes will go out of tune really, really fast. I remember one LARP where our group should make music for the big feast (we were bards) - it was cold, it was wet, the barn we were in was drafty and the lutes went out of tune during one song. We couldn't finish one song, because the instruments were sounding horrible.

And that of course means that if you want to do magic with your lute, you maybe won't be able to do so because the weather is against you.

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[info]rachelmap
2005-01-25 11:22 am UTC (link)
Oh, yeah. Especially if your strings are made of catgut or silk.

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(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2005-01-27 03:52 am UTC

[info]deathglare
2005-01-25 07:44 am UTC (link)
Probably one of the funniest things I've done during a short bout of writing. Have this magic user with a musical voice and plays some instruments rather well. First off he does not use music as his magical focuse. Second despite his pleasent sounding voice most of the time when he sings, it sounds like the gutteral aligator voice one hears when they listen to alot of death metal. Instrument preference, anything that remotely resembles a guitar, and something like a sitar just goes all out for sheer annoyance factor. It's a nice sounding instrument, but it pays off to be used to the thing if your going to listen to it alot.

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[info]minervasolo
2005-01-25 09:38 am UTC (link)
Musical voices: The Clangers. Always and forever The Clangers come to mind. I'm sure there are some other kids shows that use the same technique (Pingu, I think), but it's always The Clangers that I think of. Unless your beautiful maiden is a wollen pink mouse living on a moon with a soup dragon and Iron Chicken, best to leave it well alone.

Though I have actually met someone with what you would have to describe as a 'fluting' voice. Very high pitched and breathy and slightly nasal. The sort of voice you would assume someone was putting on. Makes your head hurt after a while. Again, not something you want a beautiful heroine to have.

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This rant made me think of several things.
[info]saadiira
2005-01-25 09:40 am UTC (link)
Firstly, I really liked it. Very good points, all.

One of the thing that most annoys me tends to involve anachronisms.

Of course, I suppose that a fantasy world MIGHT have very different music than a medieval version of our own (If only because of what magic might allow with instrumentation, and even care of instruments, or boosting of voices), but still. Our own modern slang phrases are something we really do need to take care not to involve in most situations.

(To find some slang phrases that might not be so modern at all, one can try out, for example, Chaucer, or look up a copy of the dirty word dictionary. It involves some very archaic bits, including actual thieve's cant.)

When I was a kid growing up, I listened to some pretty odd music for the times. My parents encouraged it. They were of a much older generation, with some odd tastes of their own.

Anyway, they must have thought that it would be better for me to be listening to madrigals, and historic songs from before the industrial revolution for some reason or other, instead of rock. At the time, It posed some real social problems (How many kids, after all, know all the words to dozens of songs of the American Revolution?, etc.). Now, I'm more than half grateful, having gone well beyond just getting caught up on what's modern. lol.

Anyway, that brings me to a few possible suggestions if you want to involve music in any capacity in fantasy.

Check out the music store for classic folk music, madrigals, and various other historical music. Not just classical, of course, as you'll want words.

Some of the Irish and other celtic folk music can be pretty amazing, besides, but also look specifically to see if you can find things like madrigals.

You could also try to catch a few subtitled operas, but that more for other descriptive reasons (Ie, period costuming can get really incredible with some of those.)

Even just going back to the civil war period, or the American Revolution, you can get some excellent ideas of the sorts of material sung during wartime before electric guitars and such. To boot, some of the songs popular then had roots far older than that period.

Just keep in mind to be wary of any period slang.

-Dira-






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Re: This rant made me think of several things.
[info]limyaael
2005-01-27 03:54 am UTC (link)
Striking a balance on the language is always best, I think. I've read way, way too many fantasy lyrics that made me wince, to the point of thinking that they really should have gotten someone else to write the poetry and songs. Those authors really need to get some musical education, of the kind that you suggested- the specific suggestions are good, BTW- before they try again.

On the other hand, I read a story today where everything was in archaic English, and it was very, very painful, because the author obviously had no idea what the hell she was doing. People need to learn the language and music and slang of other times, not skim them.

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Re: This rant made me think of several things. - [info]saadiira, 2005-01-27 07:21 am UTC

[info]otakukeith
2005-01-25 09:56 am UTC (link)
Huge instruments like grand pianos are going to be a bitch to transport.

OK, now I have a hilarious image of the musical mage having to take half an hour to set up his grand piano before his duel with the Dark Lord, or an army of magical mages setting up a phalanx of grand pianos like a battery of artillery. :D

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*Snarfl.*
[info]saadiira
2005-01-25 11:51 am UTC (link)
That's funny. Can you picture it with a full orchestra, or with massive pipe organs?

*TeeHee*.

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Re: *Snarfl.* - [info]otakukeith, 2005-01-25 02:28 pm UTC
Re: *Snarfl.* - [info]saadiira, 2005-01-27 07:27 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]the_s_guy, 2005-01-26 07:00 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]onyxflame, 2006-03-09 07:04 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2005-01-27 03:54 am UTC

[info]jmeadows
2005-01-25 12:25 pm UTC (link)
Wow, I think I adore you! THANK YOU.

(And I have friended you; I hope you don't mind)

I've played the flute for... *tilts head in thought* almost ten years, and I couldn't tell you everything about it if you threatened my life. And that's the only instrument I play (unless you count banging my fingers on the piano, but for the lives of my fuzzy ferret friends I can't do two different things with my hands at one time)!

As much as I'd love my heroines to play the flute, I'm simply too lazy to research how flutes were made then and how the fingerings were done. I mean, my flute has a billion and one keys (I exagerate a little...) and all kinds of wires and itty tiny screws. I'm pretty certain they couldn't do that and make flutes avaliable to manymany people in medieval times. It's just too. much. work. Which is why it infuriates me to see authors having their broke heroines play the flute.

But I digress.

Thank you again for this rant (and others). You are lovely.

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[info]limyaael
2005-01-27 03:57 am UTC (link)
Don't mind at all. Thanks for telling me, though. (I get twitchy when someone shows up and I have no idea where they came from).

I can't say how right you are, since I don't know anything about flute production, but instrument-carving is a hard job, and without mass production, it'd be much harder. Hmmm, perhaps a rant on industry is in order; a lot of authors seem to think that their medieval fantasy worlds have printing presses, too...

And thank you very much for the compliment. *blush*

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[info]frenchpony
2005-01-25 03:26 pm UTC (link)
Oh yes, yes, yes! I am an ethnomusicologist (in-training), and it irks me to no end when people who don't know the first thing about music write pretentiously about it. All those flutelike voices -- why? There are instruments that are said to sound like the human voice, and the flute is not one of them. Certain members of the fiddle family can sound very human, especially the 'cello, and I have read that the saxophone was invented in an attempt to mimic jazz singing, but you never see a fantasy character with a saxophone-like voice. Or a voice like a sackbut. There are people with voices like that.

Actually, that could be funny. Our Hero is set to have an arranged marriage to a lady who is said to have a musical voice. Of course, when she arrives, he discovers that, although the miniature portrait improved considerably upon reality, her voice does resemble an instrument. Only the instrument is a sackbut. But she probably turns out to be a decent sort, if a little pissy at being pushed around for not being beautiful. And she doesn't really give a fig about Our Hero, and they end up in one of those marriages where they lead separate lives and vaguely recognize each other in the corridors, and yet they still manage to remain married and have fantasy adventures. [/tangent]

I think a major source of the problem is the pervasive national habit of cutting music classes in schools. No one is taught about music, so they don't know from different styles unless they happen to listen on their own. I've found textbooks on balladry from 1930, but who'd teach balladry in school these days? People think classical music is all stuffy pantywaist stuff that only The Elite can appreciate, so they don't listen and don't hear the amazing variety of what's out there. Folk music? Isn't that what long-haired chicks like Joan Baez sang? People just fall out of their seats when they hear a band like Cordelia's Dad for the first time. They didn't know that folk music could be so engaging, or so funny.

And the bawdy ballads, especially. Tim Eriksen wrote in the liner notes to one of the Cordelia's Dad recordings that he was amused by people who decried the bawdiness of modern pop music and wanted to go back to the good old days when music was clean. He wrote that he had no idea what good old days they were talking about, since the track he was writing about was "The Spencer Rifle," which would certainly call down the wrath of Tipper Gore for its absolutely transparently sexual metaphor involving the rifle. People just don't know how wonderful bawdy ballads can be.

And then let's not forget all the stunning variety of dance music. Celtic reels, Balkan dancing, with its irregular rhythms, Javanese gamelans accompanying classical court dancing, the grand showcase that is Renaissance dancing. . . I could go on and on.

Actually, in the realm of authors abusing music while writing, one would have to cite Tolkien, the grandpappy of them all. He sends Fingon to rescue Maedhros from a mountainous rocky stronghold and when Fingon can't find Maedhros at first, what does he do? He whips out, of all things, a harp! And then plays musical Marco Polo with it. Why in seven heavens would anyone bring any musical instrument at all, much less a delicate harp, along on a rescue mission into the heart of your evil godlike enemy's most evil, rocky stronghold. A sword, yes. A bow, yes. Duct tape, signal flares, rope, WD-40, extra help, all these might be logical things to bring. But what does Fingon bring? A harp.

No wonder the Noldor lost in the end.

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[info]starfishofelves
2005-01-25 10:51 pm UTC (link)
*insert everything in your last paragraph and the last sentence of your post here (in italics) because it's too long to copy and paste*

Mwahahahaha! So true. *still loves Tolkien anyway*

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(no subject) - [info]otakukeith, 2005-01-25 11:47 pm UTC
One word solution to that... - [info]saadiira, 2005-01-26 09:05 am UTC
Re: One word solution to that... - [info]frenchpony, 2005-01-26 12:45 pm UTC
Re: One word solution to that... - [info]saadiira, 2005-01-27 07:16 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2005-01-27 04:00 am UTC

[info]sythyry
2005-01-25 06:27 pm UTC (link)
If you’re going to write your own fantasy songs, please avoid the pop music model.

I can't just now think of three authors who could write lyrics that sounded halfway lyrical.

Make music of some kind other than heroic songs part of the festival celebrations.

To which I would like to add, worksongs: songs sung while people are working their tails off, to keep a rhythm (e.g., sea chanties) or just be less bored (African farmwork songs).

The only time I dared include a song with lyrics in a story was one of these, sung by a bunch of farmers trying to get a treestump out of the ground. It included one of the farmers' names, so it was obviously composed on the fly by someone who wasn't a professional composer at all. Which is good, 'cause it wasn't a great example of the songwriter's art.

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The Russians have some doozies.
[info]saadiira
2005-01-26 09:08 am UTC (link)
There's also marching songs, and military music.

As in my above post, some marching songs can be pretty darn bawdy. It's a definite chance at some humor of a slightly less than savory sort.

Every now and then, I've actually seen a decent example of it in fantasy.

-Dira-

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Hehe...
[info]jaquiel
2005-01-25 08:42 pm UTC (link)
I have a lot of fun with this. Most of the songs/poems I have in my fantasy story are humorous/bawdy or children's nonsense rhymes that I made up. Children's rhymes + Serial Killers = Fun for the whole family.

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[info]starfishofelves
2005-01-25 11:22 pm UTC (link)
Adored this because I am a huge music whore, though it would be nice if my instruments (marimba and suchlike) got a little love in fantansy. Couldn't you just see someone hauling around a rickety xylophone to perform their omg music magic with?

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[info]limyaael
2005-01-27 04:00 am UTC (link)
*snickers* It'd be a change, wouldn't it?

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[info]ggmoonycrisco
2005-01-25 11:26 pm UTC (link)
I love your rants. They're informative, a bit cruel in places but I always look back at my own work and go, "Dammit, she's right." You've got excellent points on magical music here. ^_^

One really great example of magical music put to good use is the little-known manga Violinist of Hameln. The main character plays a 5-foot violin, and there actually IS a guy who hoists around a grand piano. It's a riot. It also points out what happens when a music-playing character attempts to do so in the rain, or with injured hands.

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[info]limyaael
2005-01-27 04:01 am UTC (link)
Thank you!

See, why don't more authors have fun like that? Why be all dour? Fantasy needs to be not take itself so seriously. (Or the authors need not to take themselves so seriously, maybe).

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(no subject) - [info]onyxflame, 2006-03-09 07:12 am UTC

[info]buymeaclue
2005-01-26 12:29 am UTC (link)
Just a heads-up and hope-it's-okay that I friended you. I usually don't go in for rant-posts, but yours seem startlingly well thought-out. Much more interesting/useful than the average bear!

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[info]limyaael
2005-01-27 04:02 am UTC (link)
Thanks for letting me know. *friends back*

I've had some people tell me they're not rants, but I don't know what else to call them. Nice to know they can appeal to people who don't ordinarily read rants, though.

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(no subject) - [info]buymeaclue, 2005-01-27 05:59 am UTC

[info]duckmole86
2005-01-26 07:02 am UTC (link)
Lovely. I'm very much enjoying the time I spend reading through your rants... and they seem destined to prove helpful with my senior project. For convenience's sake (not to mention how much I enjoy reading), I'm friending you. I hope you don't mind.

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[info]limyaael
2005-01-27 04:04 am UTC (link)
Not at all. Thank you for telling me.

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