Limyaael ([info]limyaael) wrote,
@ 2005-02-07 23:38:00
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Current mood: accomplished
Entry tags:characterization rants: secondaries, fantasy rants: winter 2005

Rant on non-protagonist children
The title of this rant could be a little confusing, so I’ll just clarify: I meant children who were not the protagonist, as opposed to books about a child or teenager who tries to win back the throne/save the world/destroy the One Ring Golden Treasure of Hwortnoth. They might be children along for the quest, encountered in the villages on the way, or kidnapped by the villains.



1) No Cute Monsters. This is so obvious it shouldn’t need a warning, really. Yet whenever I open a fantasy novel and see a major child character, I wince and hover. About half the time I wind up fleeing to the rafters and peering down while I wonder if it’s safe to come out yet.

Yes, children can be cute. However. Not all people will find them cute in the same way. An adorable phrasing can be just as adorable to the child’s mother the two hundredth time around, but the tense soldier in the front may well be dreaming of a law that would prevent anyone from saying that phrase ever again. Likewise, some people think it’s cute when a child of eleven or twelve gets a very simple fact wrong. A teacher may think this is pathetic, and set out to correct the ignorance at once.

DO NOT insist that every character in the book, regardless of background or anxiety level or current concern, take time out to appreciate the Cyoot. Children have excuses for, say, revealing a hiding party’s location through a loud cry, because they don’t know any better. Adults who realize that they could be killed, and who smile and coo over that behavior anyway before turning to fight, are asking to die of trauma to the head with a blunt object.

2) No Mini-Grad Students. I’m a grad student. Specifically, an English major. Day in and day out I’m around other English grad students. And while our obsessions and the level of professional jealousy are profoundly childish on occasion, I assure you that none of the more specialized words we use are ones that would be coming out of five-year-old mouths, while the five-year-old brains behind those mouths understood completely and fully what they were talking about.

I’m sorry, in a way, because I know the genius child is a long-running conceit of speculative fiction. But when an author makes her child character sound like a grad student, there’s one important thing she’s missing: this kind of knowledge is not instinctive, the way that, say, the urge to learn language in the first place is. It has to be actually acquired. Books have to be read and synthesized, and discussion with other people has to take place, to fully appreciate what’s going on under all the theory. And, of course, every discipline on the planet has its own specialized set of references to those theorists who’ve gone before, considered the “greats,” whom people inside the discipline will know and anyone outside it is extremely unlikely to. Complete knowledge can’t be attained by reading three books, or a hundred, or two hundred.

And, genius-child-writing authors? That’s in science fiction, which has more reason in the first place to pull genius children out of its bum. Put a genius child in a normal fantasy world, and I would like to know just where the hell she found all these books and all the time to read them.

Lack or presence of a printing press. I swear, it’s the hidden god of fantasy. It determines how much knowledge is available more than most people realize.

So, no. I’m sorry. You might have a child smarter than the average, but there’s simply no way that she’ll know as much as a mage who’s studied this subject for fifty years.

3) Children aren’t good travelers. So your fantasy party is walking and walking and walking, or riding and riding and riding, and by the end of the day they’ve covered twenty miles. And somehow, the four-year-old has kept up with them all that way, uncomplaining and with no one really noticing whether she’s with them all the time. She just plumps down by the fire, eats some food, and goes to sleep.

Know the address of the guy who fed you the pretty mushrooms? I know some other people who might be interested.

The reason that you should not eat the pretty mushrooms is that this makes no sense. Children have shorter legs than adults, they tire far more easily, and most of the time they aren’t used to walking or riding that long. (Exceptions can be made for gypsy children, but many of the children in fantasy parties have come from villages or cities, and aren’t used to the pace). They get hungry and don’t want to wait for settled meals; if they do manage to wait, they’ll take more than a few tiny bites of whatever food is available. Is a child going to understand a food or water ration?

Children also get distracted. If this is a four-year-old in relatively good health, and passing through landscape she’s never seen before, she’ll probably want to stop and play with interesting stones, or follow animals, or hear a story from an adult. She can be found and brought back to the journey, of course, but that takes a) time away from progress forward and b) attention from the adults that fantasy authors seldom bother to write.

Finally, children may or may not be sound sleepers. Babies in certain stages of their life are certainly not going to be. Older children may wake up when sentries change shifts, or go to sleep before other characters and wake up earlier, or have nightmares and need to be comforted. Adults acting as traveling or temporary parents are definitely going to be in for some sleep deprivation.

If children are compelled to come along on a fantasy journey, pay attention to them. Arrange a cart or some other convenient way to travel. Make it clear that the child may not understand adult priorities, or may, if old enough, understand them but not like them, and have no inhibition against making her dislike loud and clear. Have adults actually parent, rather than toss off a few sitcom-worthy comments and otherwise forget about the children who are supposedly “their most precious burden.”

4) Gratuitous violence to children just makes your readers want to kill things. Maybe you. Someday I would almost like to sit a selection of fantasy authors down in a room and ask them why they write in children being gored, raped, disemboweled, turned into demonic creatures, skinned alive, and mutilated.

“Almost” like it being the key word, because I suspect all the answers would be variations on “Because it gets the reader’s emotional goat.” Some of them might be interesting variations, sure, but I already know the gist.

And this would be fine, if writing in scenes where the army sacks a town and kills all the children, or where the first time we meet the villain he’s raping a little boy, was ordinary getting of the emotional goat, on a par with making the protagonist confront an old lover or seeing an adult warrior fall in battle. But it’s not. These scenes tend to come across as openly emotionally manipulative, rather than playing the game behind the scenes.

I’ve complained about child abuse scenes before. Many of them are boring to read. Others seem tossed in because the author knows no other way to make the reader dislike a character than to go for the most obvious form of villainy imaginable. But even the well-written, multiple-note scenes are usually manipulative. They want the reader to steam with anger and passion and pity.

So you call up these dramatic emotions, and the reader usually realizes you’re calling them up. You’ve just kicked her out of the story, enough for her to recognize it as a story technique.

I don’t like being told how to react, thank you.

Whenever you plan to include a scene of violence against children, think twice. Think one more time for any of the following that applies:

-The person hurting the children is the main bad guy.
-The scene has no other purpose but to get the reader’s emotional goat.
-The gore is heavier, and the description more detailed, than you use in scenes of violence against adults.
-The reader has never met the character inflicting the violence before the page where it happens.

Think about it. At least that way, you’re likely to lead your readers instead of dragging them kicking and screaming along behind you. Remember: The best puppetmasters don’t show the strings.

5) Not everyone “wrong” can be “redeemed” by the love of a child. I’m so sick of this plotline that it gets a point all to itself. If you want to do a strong villain character turning back to the “light” or “goodness” or whatever the Fantasyland maniacs are calling it these days, please try something other than pairing him with a baby or young child and expecting that to change his mind.

Why is this stupid? First and foremost because it’s overworked, just like the genius-child idea. A lot of authors have done a lot with it. When writing it, an author’s mind tends to overflow with what she’s read before this, rather than concentrating on her character and the way that he might believably respond to this situation.

Second and foremore, some people just don’t enjoy the company of children. This isn’t a sign of villainy. It doesn’t have to be the reason that the “bad” character went “bad” in the first place. They can be bored by them, nervous around them, not interested in them. These people do exist (hi), and so it’s highly unlikely that everyone in existence would change the basis of their personal philosophy after being around a baby.

Third and fore, it could be dangerous to the child. So Gruffy McWarriorKnight has never held a baby, bathed a baby, fed a baby, burped a baby, changed a baby, soothed a baby to sleep, or learned how to care for a sick baby. And you’re giving him a baby. Go you, genius author. I would expect one very hurt baby in a few days. Such characters usually learn the knowledge by miraculous osmosis, which is Stupid. Hiring a midwife is a little better, but if Gruffy McWarriorKnight can find a midwife, why the fuck isn’t he dumping the baby there and hightailing it out of town?

No, children aren’t a Love Cure. Please don’t turn them into one.

6) Try using children the protagonist meets only briefly for purposes other than causing the protagonist to reflect on innocence. So Simple Not-Secretly-A-King-Really stops in a town to purchase supplies. He sees two children playing. They carry his mind back to his childhood, when his younger brother, Good Not-A-Stereotype-Really, played with him. He wishes he was still that innocent. Yadda yadda yadda blah blah, cue two paragraphs or more of blathering that makes me think the fantasy novelist is actually a frustrated inspirational fiction writer, and then he moves on and never thinks about the children for the rest of the novel.

Authors? Only put in secondary characters that you fucking need. (There will be a rant on that soon, since so many people crowd their books with characters who never appear again). If the children aren’t important in and of themselves, innocence isn’t an important theme in your book, Simple Not-Secretly-A-King-Really doesn’t need cheering up, and the reference vanishes never to appear again, what is the good of this?

Children can play exciting, important roles in fantasy novels. This one is neither.

7) Turn children the protagonist is trying to rescue into more than ciphers. I hate the rescue-and-revenge plotline for any number of very good reasons (hey, another embryonic rant). The one that applies here is the protagonist getting to the end of his chase, rescuing the child, slaying the kidnappers…and me thinking all the while, “Who is this child? What’s she like? Why does the protagonist love her? Did someone sneakily edit her name from Little Nell to Julia when I wasn’t looking?”

Oh, rescue-and-revenge protagonists often do have scenes with their children before the kidnapping, and they’ll have flashbacks during the chase to moments shared with them, but those scenes and moments are unrelievedly generic too much of the time. The child giggles and runs around, gets her bleeding knee kissed, presents adorable gifts to her parents or friends, says “I love you” in any amount of sappy ways, and, an obnoxious portion of the time, has curly blonde hair and blue eyes. She doesn’t do anything that makes her her, rather than a cipher for the protagonist to chase and rescue and talk about how much he loves at every opportunity.

There’s a saying that children, while obviously superior to all other children in the eyes of their parents, aren’t nearly as interesting to people outside the family (who probably have their own children to brag about). You can’t fall back on that excuse when writing the rescue-and-revenge plot, or, really, any plot in a fantasy novel that involves a child. You have to make that child interesting to people other than her parents, because your readers aren’t bored guests at a dinner party who smile and smile until their faces crack. They have the choice to shut the book and go away.



Rant on greed is next.




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[info]ariescelestial
2005-02-08 04:50 am UTC (link)
Well, I have a story with a bunch of children as secondary characters, and I did alright on all the parts...except for the first one. >.o Everyone thinks they're cute, even if they are a little annoying once in a while, and do occasionally do something stupid like oh, sneak into the woods at night.

I really need to change that.

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[info]limyaael
2005-02-09 04:45 am UTC (link)
If EVERYBODY thinks they're cute and says so repeatedly, or if the one character who doesn't gets bashed by everyone else for saying so, then I think you need to change it, yeah. There'd be too much of an authorial bias obvious there.

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[info]goldjadeocean
2005-02-08 05:04 am UTC (link)
I personally think children would be more interesting as little brats who weren't that bad every once in a while. I do know I'm having tons of fun with my twelve-year-old- she sulks, she screams, she gets sore and doesn't care who knows it, demands that her older brother stop speaking to her in the children's dialect of their language, and she alternates between hero-worship and authority-hate for every older woman in the novel, almost. But she can also be surprisingly courageous and gracious.

Children are a godsend of characterisation. Why give that up?

Also, I always retch in church when they get to talking about the purity of children and faith and love of children. Have these people all forgotten their childhoods? I was bullied through all of elementary school. If we treat each other like children do, we'd just end up calling each other "booger" more often, and little else would change.

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[info]limyaael
2005-02-09 04:50 am UTC (link)
If we're talking children who aren't the protagonists, I think that most authors simply don't want to flesh them out, the same way that they often don't bother fleshing out a rival or a bully or a parent who prevents the protagonist from doing what she wants to do. They're there to serve one purpose, which is only relevant because it concerns the protagonist. That purpose could be to get the hero to reflect on innocence, to give the heroine someone to protect, or to provide an excuse for a rescue plotline. But authors seem to think that they don't need to be fully fleshed out when that's all they're there for.

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(no subject) - [info]goldjadeocean, 2005-02-09 05:11 am UTC

[info]fadethecat
2005-02-08 05:10 am UTC (link)
Hee. I did have a bunch of children show up in one of my stories... But they're your basic street urchins, and they mostly helped the protagonist because she offered to pay them if they did. They chatter, they're distractible, they argue with each other and hit each other, they get really excited about something to an annoying extent... I mean, they're kids. They do that.

(I will admit that I gave the main urchin the obligatory Odd Speech Habits, but that was more a pointer of her social class that a Cute Speech Impediment, really!)

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[info]limyaael
2005-02-09 04:52 am UTC (link)
I remember reading a novel (I think it was one of Cherryh's Morgaine series) that contained a pair of truly NASTY street children. They were only in a few scenes, but they gave me the willies, and I still remember them. Street kids would have even more of an excuse for doing things children normally "would never do, oh never!" That authors waste them so much is doubtly disappointing.

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(no subject) - [info]lawnnun, 2005-10-03 12:30 pm UTC

[info]tyraarane
2005-02-08 05:31 am UTC (link)
On #7: IMHO, I've found that rescue-and-revenge stories (or even rescue, period) work best when the reader is able to sympathize with the protagonist somehow, while the protagonist is busy running around trying to rescue the kid. That way, to me at least, the sympathy the reader has for the protagonist bleeds over into his Search For Justice™, and the rescue attempts gain significance. (Er, if that makes any sense. It's late, and I have a cold. I'm probably babbling incoherently.)

Case in point, Outlaws (yes, I realize it's a computer game, player not reader, etc., but it has a rescue-and-revenge story, so). Personally, I knew nothing about Sarah, the kidnapped daughter, except that her father thought she had a lovely singing voice and she has a doll she calls "Bonnie." Really, that was it. And the story didn't give you any more information about her--there was nary a flashback about her in sight.

But while I didn't know anything about Sarah and really would've had no drive to rescue her if just given the bare facts I just outlined...I did care, because I cared about the protagonist, James. The story made it very clear that the only thing James has left to him now is his daughter. That's why he's so set on finding her; he needs to reclaim that one tiny part of his world that wasn't destroyed. When, for a brief period, he couldn't find any leads as to where she was taken, he nearly went insane. Because he cared so much, and I cared about him, by the time it got down to the last level and I was roaming around the same house Sarah was trapped in, I was determined to get James his daughter back--it was either that or watch him go stark raving mad.

Really, I think if you aren't going to employ flashbacks or have generic flashback issues...that's the way to go. Demonstrate to the reader why rescuing the kid matters so damn much to the protagonist.

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[info]limyaael
2005-02-09 04:57 am UTC (link)
Ideally, I want them both fleshed out. I've seen authors do remarkable jobs with protagonists whom they let truly desire something, but often I have the uneasy feeling that this protagonist would feel the exact same way if he were chasing someone who'd stolen, say, half his life's savings. What makes the person he wants to rescue a person and not an object? What makes the motivation driving him LOVE, instead of obsession, or the desire for revenge on someone who's perpetrated a crime on him, no matter what that crime is? Fantasy is general is good with revenge-driven heroes. I just want to see a hero whose revenge is really love at bottom, rather than an author relying on the convention of "Well, she's his kid, of course he would love her!" Not all parents feel the same emotion towards their children, so the author can't lean on that.

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(no subject) - [info]onyxflame, 2006-03-11 02:41 am UTC

[info]blunder_buss
2005-02-08 06:08 am UTC (link)
Children have excuses for, say, revealing a hiding party’s location through a loud cry, because they don’t know any better.

Y'know, that reminded me of an old American tale where a woman had to strangle her crying baby to death so the Native Americans wouldn't hear them. If a travelling party brings a kid, it'd be good to have a scene where the characters debate doing the same thing.

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[info]frenchpony
2005-02-08 02:16 pm UTC (link)
There's also the scene at the deportation plaza in The Pianist where the Szpilman family is sitting in the hot sunshine wondering what has happened to Halina and Henrik, and this woman is sitting behind them moaning "Why did I do it?" over and over again. Later, when Halina and Henrik return, Halina comments that the woman is getting on her nerves and asks what she did. Someone tells her that the woman and her husband had prepared a hiding place for when the Nazis came, and things were going fine until the woman's baby started to cry. She put her hand over its mouth to smother its cries and ended up accidentally killing the baby. Its death rattle alerted the Nazis to the family's hiding place.

Now, that is brilliant use of children and violence against them to prove a point. That it's a true event from Szpilman's book does not lessen it any.

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[info]dragovianknight
2005-02-08 06:20 am UTC (link)
some people just don’t enjoy the company of children. This isn’t a sign of villainy.

Hi, and thanks. Some of us find children nails on a chalkboard annoying, too (that wasn't listed as a possible reason not to enjoy the company of children). This doesn't mean we tear the wings of insects and torture small animals, though.

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[info]limyaael
2005-02-09 04:58 am UTC (link)
I thought people would get after me if I put that. *grin*

And yeah. So often whether or not someone loves children is taken to be a cornerstone of his or her character. (It certainly is in Elizabeth Haydon's books, where the heroine "adopts" children hither and yon). See, while I quite enjoy small animals, and adults, and even rational teenagers, I don't like babies and children. I don't think that makes me a bad person.

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Gods, yes. - [info]saadiira, 2005-02-09 08:17 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]onyxflame, 2006-03-11 02:47 am UTC

[info]otakukeith
2005-02-08 11:40 am UTC (link)
There will be a rant on that soon, since so many people crowd their books with characters who never appear again

Some people, of course, crowd their books with useless characters who hijack the plot and bring it to a grinding halt. *hurls assorted objects at Robert Jordan*

George RR Martin has said he doesn't like writing child characters (or at least finds it tricky), but he does it really well. I don't think any of his kids could be considered 'cute', at least not in the saccharine sense, and he captures the somewhat skewed viewpoint of a child. He also empasizes the way kids in the situations he writes about have to grow up quickly, and the ways in which their lives are different in a *realistic* medieval fantasy world.

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[info]limyaael
2005-02-09 05:02 am UTC (link)
Martin does so well, I believe, because he keeps in mind that his children are the people they are before they're children. He's learned the lesson I'm starting to believe most authors never learn: you can't say someone is "a woman" or "a firemage" or "a child" and expect that to determine the whole of his or her character. Real people are more than that, and though fictional creations can't approach the complexity of real people, they can do so far more closely than most of the types people scatter their fantasies with.

Supposedly, WoT will be concluded by Volume 13. From what I've read about the latest books in reviews, I doubt it. Or else it'll be a rushed conclusion that ends in a deus ex machina.

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Agreed. Martin Rocks. - [info]saadiira, 2005-02-09 08:30 am UTC

[info]cartesiandaemon
2005-02-08 11:47 am UTC (link)
What else might the title mean? Children who are supposed to be protagonists but in fact don't live up to it?

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[info]limyaael
2005-02-09 05:02 am UTC (link)
Someone asked if it meant children not related to the protagonist.

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(no subject) - [info]cartesiandaemon, 2005-02-10 11:57 am UTC

[info]adaneth_djd
2005-02-08 12:06 pm UTC (link)
4) Gratuitous violence to children just makes your readers want to kill things.
*coughs* Terry Goodkind *coughs*

5) Not everyone "wrong" can be "redeemed" by the love of a child.
They can be bored by them, nervous around them, not interested in them. These people do exist (hi)

*beams* Hello! *waves back*

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[info]subsidaryforge
2005-02-08 02:50 pm UTC (link)
*coughs* Terry Goodkind *coughs*

Heck, yeah. Someone gave me that Legends short story compilation for Christmas. Lovely little Goodkind story with a completely gratuitous "child beheading" scene that wasn't even real. I sure was impressed.

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(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2005-02-09 05:03 am UTC

[info]ilanalynn
2005-02-08 01:36 pm UTC (link)
Hello! I wandered over here from [info]gehayi's journal, and I like to read what you have here so I am friendifyinig you. :)

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[info]limyaael
2005-02-09 05:04 am UTC (link)
Hi! Thanks for letting me know that you're here. *friends back*

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[info]frenchpony
2005-02-08 02:38 pm UTC (link)
That, I think, is one of many Victorian hangovers. The Victorians fetishized childhood, and most of their child characters could either Do No Wrong (see most major Dickens child characters) or were irredeemable little shits.

Children are weird little critters. They live in a world they don't understand, where everyone is bigger than they are and they're utterly powerless. So they form their own society, keep their secrets, and are in general very interesting, but only if you look at them in all their dark glory. Maurice Sendak's stories are immensely disturbing if you read them as an adult, but children recognize the darkness in, say, Outside Over There as just being a normal part of life. Peter Pan is like this, too. I think that a lot of contemporary adults would be appalled if they actually let themselves realize just how sexual and violent the story is. Brilliant pieces of work, both of them, and cuteness is hardly an issue.

And, for the love of all that is good and holy, please, writers, have a clue about child development! Children brought up in strict environments may be outwardly more adult -- no one is expecting a Puritan child to run around cheerfully being Cute -- but most children go through fairly well-outlines stages of maturity, and it really irks me when authors write characters who are either way too mature or immature for their stated age. This is the nagging little flaw in A Distant Soil. The major child character, Liana, is supposedly fifteen years old. However, she looks and acts as if she's nine (she sleeps with a teddy bear), and apparently hasn't had her first period yet (so sayeth D'Mer, at least, though how he knows is anyone's guess). I wish Colleen Doran had just decided to make Liana nine years old and gotten it over with. Other than that, I really like A Distant Soil, though.

And no thoughts about writing children would be complete without a word from Susan Death: "Real children don't go hoppity-skip unless they're on drugs."

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[info]fanfare
2005-02-08 11:04 pm UTC (link)
Some people are just excruciatingly immature, though. I know a few - absolute pains in the ass, who throw temper tantrums and cry crocodile tears when they don't get their way. It drives me insane. Liana looks nine, though? That's pushing it.

I still sleep with a stuffed animal, and I'm almost fifteen :p *hugs her cat stuffie*

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(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2005-02-09 05:08 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]laraqua, 2006-02-18 05:48 pm UTC
Hear, hear!
[info]subsidaryforge
2005-02-08 02:48 pm UTC (link)
I'm a huge fan of well done children and child protagonists. But the quickest way to ruin kids is to flatten them out into cute moments or weepy, helpless dramatic moments. Having grown up with four siblings, who could not quote the dictionary from the age of five, but could very well do something else than dote on their parents and did -- it's just really, really annoying to me when kids are props.

And innocent. Sure, kids are "innocent" -- in the sense that they don't have an adult's experience or an adult's sense of causality. Which is all very cute, but in a tense action fantasy novel is a lot more likely to lead to trouble than to cute moments. And it's not always because the kid's being sweet and trying to pet the monster (we call that less innocent and more stupid if the monster's bristling with fangs). Kids are a little more complex than trailing halos. When your youngster attaches himself to a rotten kind of fellow you don't like, he's probably not just doing it out of the undiluted goodness of his heart. And smart parents probably aren't going to wait around to see if the rotten fellow is redeemed by the child's company -- uh, no.

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(snerks)
[info]subsidaryforge
2005-02-08 02:54 pm UTC (link)
Just to clarify, I'm not talking about anything specific on the end of that last paragraph -- kids can fixate on people they shouldn't that are dangerous for one reason or another -- out of rebellion, out of loneliness, because the person was kind to them ... a crush -- which isn't as weird and oooh, pedophilia! as it sounds. I had a crush on someone in their late twenties when I was eight. Happens. And, hey, if that person would have turned out to be a supervillain ...

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Re: Hear, hear! - [info]fanfare, 2005-02-08 11:11 pm UTC
Re: Hear, hear! - [info]limyaael, 2005-02-09 05:10 am UTC
Re: Hear, hear! - [info]youraugustine, 2005-02-09 06:20 am UTC

[info]youraugustine
2005-02-08 03:28 pm UTC (link)
I love writing children. I draw my material directly from my experience as a child and my experience as an older sister and babysitter. From this I have learned:

Children are capricious, small, loud, obnoxious, selfish, demanding, using little monsters who are far more likely to beat each other up, steal each other's toys and make each other cry than they are to be a useful bar for reflecting on innocence. They are also actually more closed-minded, more likely to descriminate because of truly random things and more likely to be horribly nasty to each other than humans are.

And they honestly think that whatever random treat they want right now is at least as important as whatever vital-to-survival thing an adult is doing.

At least, those are the characteristics of the children that fantasy writers seem to want to write about ('tora was such fun.) There are also the children who don't have a childhood because they've been Working To Survive since they could walk, and the stilted-strictured-structured lives of the noble children of the kind whose parents (if they were girls) shoved them into corsets at the age of ten . . .

And so on.

I remember reading a commentary on Calvin and Hobbes once which pointed out that the cartoonist did something with Calvin that no other comedic writer for children ever seemed to do: actually wrote a child, in all his winsome and feckless glory.

Think about how nuts Calvin would drive a person. And there's your Bright Inventive Fantasy Child.

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[info]limyaael
2005-02-09 05:13 am UTC (link)
And they honestly think that whatever random treat they want right now is at least as important as whatever vital-to-survival thing an adult is doing.

That's what drives me batty about the scenes of fantasy adults trying to reason with children into keeping quiet, staying with the party, only following certain trails, or whatever. The children shouldn't listen. Why should they? If they're young enough (as I said in the rant) they won't understand, and if they're older, they might decide to do something contrary out of mulishness or because they didn't like the way their sister poked them earlier that day. If the adults threaten to punish the children, or just told them to follow along, it would be nastier, but it would at least make more sense.

I haven't yet read a story about working children that's managed to convince me. Every child working in a factory turns into Oliver Twist once the protagonist gets them away from the factory. Probably is Dickens' influence...

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(no subject) - [info]youraugustine, 2005-02-09 06:23 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]lawnnun, 2005-10-03 12:38 pm UTC

[info]castiron
2005-02-08 03:33 pm UTC (link)
Patricia Wrede's Caught in Crystal is one that handles children -- and a protagonist who's a mother -- quite well.

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[info]limyaael
2005-02-09 05:14 am UTC (link)
I read it a long time ago (probably eight years or so). I remember enjoying it for just that reason.

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Contrary Children
[info]reiknight
2005-02-08 03:42 pm UTC (link)
Oops... guilty of the child-genius... but hey, this book *is* set in present time Earth... he taught himself to read off the TV... it has a teletext option...

No1 ANNOYS THE FRIGGING SHIT OUT OF ME!
There is something fucking unnatural about children being Glorious Little Cherubs(TM) in fantasy novels.
In the REAL world, children are noisy, annoying, messy, whining little brats who most often need a sharp slap on the arse.
No, I'm not a child hater, but just sick of the Glorious Little Cherub(TM) stereotype.
My mother owns a greengrocers shop, and the children that people bring in there are Brats with a capital B. THeres a tot that eats the grapes by the handful, another tot who enjoys taking the baskets and throwing them over the floor, and endless kids who love to pull the bags off their roll like a dozen rolls of toilet paper.
Kids scream, they spew, they pee all over the floor. They chuck tantrums, and are contrary to a point. Of course, i'm talking about the baby to preschool age here.
Older kids are different, but still, they are contrary. If fact, if you look at children in general, they are contrary to their parents/ guardian's wishes all their fucking lives? Have you ever met a 7y-o who will eat her greens willingly? A 12y-o who doesn't want to play GTA/NFS/Manhunt on PS2? A 16y-o who doesn't want a curfew/mobile phone/ a date with the hot young dude down the street?
And when kids get too loud, I'm all for a sharp smack on the arse. It never did me any harm, and I learnt, and leart fast. (I'm not a child abuser eiterh)
WE had this girl who would not stop screaming in the shop, with about 20-odd customers there with grin and bear it smiles on their face. I let mum take over doing the till, and chucked my own tantrum, throwing myself on the floor, throwing the oranges, kicking and screaming, and making a general ass of myself.
The kid shut up real quick, which was good, because it braindead fucking mother wasn't doing a fucking thing to shut the little bitch up.
Sure, this is coming from a 16y-o, who, unlike her friends, DOESN'T want a tribe of brats. (HI!) I can not think of anything worse than being pregnant, (apart from having a child itself, lol) I don't hate children, but they aren't for me. So why do i get critised for not wanting brats? If the parents want the family line to carry on, well, i have a younger brother whose turning out to be quite a looker. He's braindead enough to end up with a girl(or 100) and have his own tribe.
Oops, off topic.

Second and foremore, some people just don’t enjoy the company of children. This isn’t a sign of villainy. It doesn’t have to be the reason that the “bad” character went “bad” in the first place. They can be bored by them, nervous around them, not interested in them. These people do exist (hi), and so it’s highly unlikely that everyone in existence would change the basis of their personal philosophy after being around a baby.

YES!
If anything, my protag wants to run for cover. He knows he won't be a good father. Why? One, He's too young. (15) He only got knocked up cuz he was drunk, and he was sleeping with his friend in a non sexual way, she got drunk, and sparks started to fly between them.
Two, his lifestyle isn;t the best to raise a child. He's on the road almost permanently, and dragging a sqawlling baby through desert/forest/swamp/enemy territory/between worlds ain't exactly going to be a picnic.
Three, he simply doesn't like children. He came from a family divided between two places, and things were tense. They were on the run almost continually on Earth, and if he didn't do as he was told, he would be in Big Trouble.
*Hisses* Children+Grizzled Warrior = Redemption.
It. Doesn't. Work. That. Way.

I won;t even START on that, or I'll be rambling until dawn.
But i'm sure you get my drift.

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Re: Contrary Children
[info]reiknight
2005-02-08 03:51 pm UTC (link)
Bah, Meant To add that another reason why my protag ended up with the girl was because he likes sex.Now that says it all, doesn't it?

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Re: Contrary Children - [info]onyxflame, 2006-03-11 03:19 am UTC

[info]spaceoperadiva
2005-02-08 04:47 pm UTC (link)
I think the *Big Rule* for writing kids is:

Don't write children if you don't personally know any.

And, no, your own knowledge of your own childish self doesn't count. It can be the kids next door, the kids you babysite, your relatives, your spawn, just don't write make children characters unless you have some actual solid knowledge of what a child of that age is really like.

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[info]fanfare
2005-02-08 11:19 pm UTC (link)
WORD.

As I've been babysitting for three years now, I've seen my fair share of horrid children. I've been slapped in the face by one kid, screamed at, told I'm "a stupid, useless meanie!" and that I "shouldn't ever come back" because I'm a "horrible, nasty person." I've been kicked around, hit, kicked, screamed at some more, yelled at, told I'm "the worst babysitter ever" and that I "should go away forever and die" and more. Until you've babysat for a fair time, you really don't have the first-hand experience of knowing how children will act and react.

Oh, and I was almost stabbed once with a knife. That was one horrible kid.

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(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2005-02-09 05:17 am UTC
That I don't necessarily agree with. - [info]saadiira, 2005-02-09 08:41 am UTC
Re: That I don't necessarily agree with. - [info]spaceoperadiva, 2005-02-09 04:20 pm UTC
Re: That I don't necessarily agree with. - [info]onyxflame, 2006-03-11 03:33 am UTC

[info]jordansc
2005-02-08 06:20 pm UTC (link)
Speaking of children-who-act-like-grad students... I wonder if I'm the only one who hates fakey sounding scholarly arguments in some fantasy. An example doesn't immediately come to mind, but more than once I've read something where two characters produce imaginery examples for their points, examples that are impossible to appreciate if you don't live in Midearthianor or whever.

Granted, something like "Tlon, Uqbar, and Orbius Tertius" is good and the wizard who throws out arcane references can work but if there's a conflict between two characters and it comes down to who can produce the best bit of expository background info --

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[info]limyaael
2005-02-09 05:18 am UTC (link)
No, you're not the only one. Mostly because those arguments all lack an edge of humor that I notice in academic arguments around me all the time, and which I don't think the authors would have failed to add in if they actually knew what they were talking about.

I have heard that the literary arguments in Simmons's Ilium are good, but I haven't read it, so I can't say for sure.

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Amen.
[info]jaquiel
2005-02-08 08:30 pm UTC (link)
A-freakin-men. Just out of curiosity, have you ever written a rant on how to do good adult characters? Or at least how to do good mature older teens? I mean, a lot of people like to keep their characters physically young/teenaged (for whatever aesthetic reasons) but mentally mature.

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Re: Amen.
[info]limyaael
2005-02-09 05:18 am UTC (link)
No, but that option has now been added to the poll. Thanks for the idea!

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[info]avrelia
2005-02-08 11:03 pm UTC (link)
Oh those cute little angels! ::snicker::

Yeah, many fantasy novels are written by people who have never been
around a child and don't remember being one.

Children can look adorable – especially on pictures. But in real life
even a well-behaved and cute child can be a monster.

1) They have tantrums. Sometimes they just don't listen to anyone when
they are not getting what they want. And what is the hero to do?
Especially if he is not a father? But even if he is.

2) Sometimes their logic works differently form the adults' Children
can be more easily scared, or they may not – because they don't know
about that specific danger.

3) The culturally-appropriate ways to discipline children when they do
something like 1) and 2). They are needed, and they may tell a lot
about the cultures. Of course, just to think that the little angels
may need to be punished is a horrible, horrible thought. Only villains
do it. Or evil stepmothers.

4) Children can be cruel. Especially in groups. We can see it when a
heroine reminisce on being bullied in her childhood, but never in the
present.

Children can talk like a grad-student – if they've never seen anyone
but grad students in their life, children would be using big words and
fully formed sentences in their speech, but the content wouldn't be
there.

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[info]limyaael
2005-02-09 05:19 am UTC (link)
Oddly enough, I have seen those things in fantasy, but not used in complex ways. For example, as you noted, cruel children tend to show up exclusively in the heroine's bad memories. No one else ever seems to have been bullied, and the complex social hierarchies that develop, say, in high school get skipped entirely. Any parent disciplining their children is a bad parent. And so on.

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[info]trinityday
2005-02-09 02:43 am UTC (link)
Worst, in my opinion, is a combination of the first two traits. The cutey-genuis child. You know, the one that knows impossible words, but not just quite, so they stumble on them ever-so-cutely.

Actually, because so few people write children well, I'm at the point where I'd rather say I hate them period than give them a chance.

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[info]onyxflame
2006-03-11 03:44 am UTC (link)
2) No Mini-Grad Students.

I don't know about this one. I made a nice snappy comeback when I was around 8, and in all the years since then I don't think I've been able to top it.

A girl in my class, let's call her Annoying Bitch, once told me she'd like to shove my glasses up my ass. I looked at her calmly and without missing a beat said, "Well, at least then I'd have 20/20 hindsight."

Of course, though I knew things most kids wouldn't know, I wasn't above perverting them for my own purposes. My mom was in college while I was in high school, and we'd often talk about the stuff she was learning in class. I had great fun running around talking about the "anal stage" and so on, lemme tell ya. :P

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