Limyaael ([info]limyaael) wrote,
@ 2005-03-13 20:15:00
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Current mood: ecstatic
Entry tags:fantasy rants: winter 2005, idea rants, subgenre rants, themes i turn to

Transformative fantasy rant
This rant is very similar to one I did a little while ago, things Limyaael thinks would be really cool. Transformative fantasy isn’t a defined genre of fantasy as such. It’s one I’m defining. The books I like best tend to have at least one of these qualities, and the more they have, the better I like them. Summed up, they tend to add up to:



And Lady, and Goddess, and multiple gods, and whatever other ruling power you want to name.

1) Irreversibility. A wonderful fantasy world will be a living place. Living places play host to living people, fling obstacles at the living people, have traditions and languages and cities and so on that exist as more than just plot devices, and change. “Change” has a lot of meanings, as you’re about to see, but the main meaning here is “don’t go from stasis to stasis as if nothing had ever happened.”

Fantasies tend to face enormous threats, up to and including the destruction of the world. Of course, the number of destroyed fantasy worlds I’ve read about is, uh, well, nil. But even the threat coming close, and having some actual consequences, like wars and human and environmental catastrophe, should have some effect. There should be scars. There should be mourning for the dead. There should be changed relationships between people (see point 4). There should be changed relationships between nations, and people adjusting to the new political configuration of the world.

There should not be, under any circumstances, the sense that the fantasy world has returned to what it was before.

This is the sign of a cardboard stage setting, not a living place. The author can just set up the cardboard houses again. If one of them’s burned, slap on a little paint and it’s as good as new. The scars will heal with magic, the dead paper figures have died for the greater good, everyone smiles and smiles, and every physical and psychological trace of the great threat has been wiped out as if it were never there.

Why do people write like this? It’s so goddamned boring.

I’ve heard some writers defend the idea of fantasy as a growing-up story, and so the adolescent who reaches adulthood takes the place of her parents, and it’s a cycle, so nothing really changes. Ha-ha-bloody-ha-ha. The whole point of growing-up is to change, to adapt and learn lessons and walk with eyes open. Writing a fantasy with this ending after a growing-up story (or bildungsroman) is akin to shutting the door on the wide world and indicating that the character who’s learned sorrow and wisdom and courage is now going to be content to live in a cloud of pink wool for the rest of her life, or a single room. If a threat comes along, she’ll close her eyes to it, and her children will have to pick up the burdens…

Ah-ha. I think I see why these stereotypical fantasy worlds suffer the same ancient evil rising over and over again.

Recoiling from the immense change is only one kind of character reaction. Not every character should share it. Not every wound should be healed. Not everything should be put back just the way it was. Transformative fantasy should include irreversible change, and living with its consequences.

2) It’s going to bloody hurt. Transformative fantasy’s structure is not really suited to comedy, or at least comedy in the sense of Shakespeare’s plays, where everything is fine, then things go nuts for a while, and then the world settles back into an order that rewards the good characters and punishes the wicked. There’s not much change there. The dysfunction at the heart of the world has been corrected, and the good features of the old order haven’t been abandoned.

Transformative fantasy may end up rewarding many of the good characters and punishing many of the wicked (see point 3), but it’s not afraid of suffering. When the world explodes, people are going to get hurt. Pretending that everything is fine after the fact is silly. Equally silly is pretending that everything is fine when the characters begin to suffer.

This means throwing a lot of genre conventions out the window:

-the assurance that the hero is going to survive simply because he’s the hero.
-the last-minute rescues and escapes.
-magical healers who cure every threatening wound and disease.
-stupid villains.
-reassurances of good’s ultimate victory proceeding from prophecy, the gods, and the like.

All of these are attempts to balk the fall from outside the story, not inside. The characters don’t know they’re going to survive, or shouldn’t, yet many of them act like suicidal idiots without near enough justification. They don’t coordinate the last-minute escapes and rescues, they always find a healer just when they need one, they can count on one of his faults blinding the villain at the crucial moment—lessening the work they need to do to defeat him—and they know what to do because the gods and prophecy have told them what to do.

Transformative fantasy sets consequences in motion and follows them to their end. If something the characters do can block them or lessen their impact, or it’s a feature of the world that the author has managed to make a real feature and not just a plot device, then great. But no bits of silly illogic will show up just to save the characters from breaking their necks.

3) It’s going to bloody sing. This is what happens when the author’s built up all the despair, gore, failed plans, and hellish moments just right. She earns the right to have them, sure, but she also earns the right to have joy, splendor, plans that work, and heaven in there.

Fantasy that stays safe and small and pastel doesn’t earn the right to have the depths. And without the depths, you can’t have the heights. A character who’s gone through all these horrible consequences on his own; experienced hell in a way that follows naturally and logically from the actions and the personalities of the people involved, and the circumstances that those actions and personalities create; and who’s started to rise out of those depths, is going to have my full support behind him.

Changes don’t have to be backwards, and they don’t have to melt away into stasis, and they don’t have to be only evil. This, I think, is what a lot of fantasists forget. Change is usually represented as evil. The usurper wants to take the throne away from the rightful ruling family, which is Bad. An evil priest wants to persecute the wonderful witches who have always lived in peace, which is Bad. The Dark Lord wants to take over the world that’s been without him, which is Bad. It’s no wonder that people almost always want to restore the ruling family or the witches or the Light as soon as possible, and then bolt their doors shut tight.

But it doesn’t have to be that way. A fantasy world doesn’t have to be white and black, with a little gray in the middle, and black being washed away pretty soon. Paint in deepest blacks, darkest blues, most violent violets, and there can be gold and blue and green and orange in there as well.

Stasis is necessary for everything to turn back to a prettified version of the past. Change is necessary for rebirth, transcendence, and growth.

4) Roses will wither, and rise from manure. Did I say I was weary of unchanging fantasy worlds, and unchanging fantasy plots, with at most a new coat of paint slapped on them? Oh, yes. But I’m even wearier of unchanging fantasy characters, who exist just to gape at the pretty world, gasp at the bad guys, do clockwork heroic things, and then get slapped with an epiphany whenever the author decides it’s time.

Almost every fantasy book has a few token traitors. Usually, they’ve always been evil/good, with no explanation of how they managed to fool everyone for so long. Sometimes, there will be a personal incident in the far past that shifted their loyalties from one side to the other, which is often explained as the traitor lies on his deathbed. But otherwise, everybody has the same goals and loyalties throughout the series.

Why?

Go back to 1 again. Look at it reeeeeal hard. When the whole world is changing and shifting and cracking, on the brink of war or destruction or magical catastrophe, would people living in that world, and especially the ones on the front lines of the change, really remain exactly the same? Would they never doubt, shiver, waver, alter? Wouldn’t their doubts sometimes be greater than a few angsty questions that the author permits them for three pages before they see something that confirms to them that they’ve been on the right side all along? Wouldn’t they sometimes be utterly lost, without a clue of the right thing to do, and so make imperfect decisions?

According to the fantasies I love, yes. Sometimes, they are. Sometimes, they switch sides, simply because they’ve philosophized themselves into doing so—because they believe it’s the right thing to do. Sometimes, they go so far that they’re truly transformed, sprouting from seeds that lay buried in the center of their souls at first, and which would never have grown if not for the changes around them. Sometimes, they’ll be crushed, and never rise again, casualties of change.

Do you want to demonstrate that people are neither really good nor evil, as a lot of fantasies do these days? Then do it. Show characters changing, flexing, revealing different folds of themselves, rather than being slaves to an outline so rigid that they can’t breathe because you need them to do certain things so badly. Quite often, a story like that suffocates its characters, and drags along their corpses, never noticing. Corpses are a little stiffer, but they can still be posed, and that’s all those stories really need them to do.

5) “The truth is rarely pure, and never simple.” With thanks and credit to Oscar Wilde, I will now take this and say that transformative fantasy shows that saying to be true of other things than truth.

Religions, philosophies, truths, ideals, epiphanies, and other things that guide characters in fantasy novels are often astonishingly pure, as pure as prophecy. Their churches have endured millennia without a schism or a heresy or any complication or obfuscation of what certain things mean—or, if that’s happened, one side is always wrong, and the other side protects the “truth” in some hidden sanctuary. Philosophies will get debated, but you can always tell who’s right and who’s wrong. Truths are pure and hurtful to the villains, and the villains never think to take them and mix them into lies, which will make the lies stronger, or find hurtful truths of their own. (Of course, the heroes probably never did anything less than pure, so that might be harder than it looks). Ideals and epiphanies are 100% clear, and any action the character takes because of one of them is one he will cherish instead of regret.

Shit, people, are you trying to proclaim that this world is cardboard?

A living world has another thing that I didn’t mention in point 1. It has a history. And history changes things, and mixes things up, and burns the wrong books, and makes splits appear in time-honored institutions, and causes syncretism, and involves migration and the extinction of languages and the death of gods and lots of other things that should not leave any truth untouched.

Change that, and suddenly you’re dancing on eggshells while trying to juggle hot coals. Goody. Now invent something to get yourself out of that situation, which of course will cause problems of its own, and follow those problems, and you’re on the road to transformative fantasy.

6) People do not stop growing when they achieve something. Failure is allowed to change a person in fantasy, though, of course, heroes rarely fail. (Personally, I think this is because authors usually put them in a situation where their failure will mean the damnation of the world, and that’s unfair. You shouldn’t make your readers cheer for the hero to succeed just because of what will happen if he doesn’t). But success isn’t. Character A and Character B fall in love? Immediately, they stop growing, and they will be in love from that point forward. The author may introduce Big Misunderstandings and a few tests of faith, but do not be fooled. They will not fall out of love. They will not become different people who are in love in a different way. They will always be frozen lovers, in the perfect position.

Character C becomes the ruler of his kingdom. He freezes. He will be that same shining king, flushed with his heroic triumph and well-regarded by his subjects, forever. No one will doubt him, or mutter against him, or find out that a dragon-killer isn’t always the best-qualified person to lead the country. He will never grow tired of ruling the kingdom, or make a stupid decision, or appoint the wrong adviser, or fall in love with the wrong queen. He’s a pretty smiling cameo for the rest of his life.

Character D keeps the world from exploding. Now, Everything Is All Right. There are no scars to be cleaned up. There is no mourning for dead comrades, because either they’ve died for the greater good or they’ve gotten themselves resurrected. In fact, I don’t have to keep going, because you can see point 1. Change is reversible, but more than that, it only needs to happen up to a point. After that, characters die.

No, not literally. But they might as well have.

Transformative fantasy will not do this. It can’t do this. The nature of the genre forbids it. People who change throughout the story, in a world where they suffer and sing and can’t erase the consequences and make mistakes, will not stop changing just because they achieve their long-desired goal. The book might end there, but the reader knows that challenges and conflicts and failures and more, different successes wait beyond the pages. The ending is just the ending of the book, not the ending of their lives.

I love fantasy like that. Fantasy like that kicks ass. And it’s the only kind where the characters are really alive. Otherwise, they might live until the last page, but then their faces freeze, and they’re photographs in an album. Transformative fantasy resembles a window instead. It’s moved alongside the characters for a while, and now they’re walking away from it. But they don’t cease to exist, no more than real people do when they’ve passed beyond a window.



Damn, that was fun. Transformative fantasy is what keeps me reading the fantasy genre, even when it seems overrun with clichés. The ones I find affect me like no other books ever have, and maybe like no other books ever will.




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[info]mistri
2005-03-14 01:30 am UTC (link)
Can you recommend some of your favourite transformative fantasies? I'm guessing Carol Berg did one...

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[info]limyaael
2005-03-15 04:36 am UTC (link)
Almost anything by Guy Gavriel Kay changes his worlds utterly, though I think his later work is beter than his first trilogy, the Fionavar Tapestry. The book that comes closest to matching all these criteria, and so is my favorite fantasy novel, is Lord of Emperors. That's the second part of a duology, though, so you'd want to read Sailing to Sarantium first.

George R. R. Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire books are wonderful, if you haven't already them.

Glen Cook's Black Company series, which starts with The Black Company, show a band of mercenaries changing loyalties and sides as they have to in order to survive.

Carol Berg does indeed write transformative fantasies. Even Song of the Beast, which I didn't like too well becuase of what I felt were unfortunate storytelling decisions, shows enormous character changes.

Louise Cooper's Time Master Trilogy (The Initiate, The Outcast, The Master) also ring hugely on themes of change. I don't think they're in print in the US right now, but they're coming back into print fairly soon.

Hope that helps!

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[info]kutsuwamushi
2005-03-14 01:51 am UTC (link)
Excellent rant, as usual. But this comment isn't about this rant.

Do you remember when I mentioned that I was planning a memoir-style fantasy and you said that that style could suck out a lot of the suspense, since readers know the main character survived from the beginning? I meant to reply to your comment back then, but I forgot--

Practically, is there any difference? When I read a book, the survival of the main protagonist--or primary viewpoint character--isn't something I'm worried about. I can't remember a single example from the fantasy genre where the main protagonist dies. I've read about them being profoundly transformed or suffering extreme loss and disillusionment, but never dying.

I'm sure that there are books where the main protagonist does die, but they're so rare that I'm not sure people ever worry about it. Do you? Are we just reading completely different books?

(I'm not counting Martin, even though he took me COMPLETELY by surprise by killing Ned Stark, since there's no single "primary" viewpoint character in those books. Though, IIRC, at the time Ned was offed, there were a lot fewer viewpoints.)

I feel suspense about things other than the survival of the main protagonist: survival of supporting characters, whether or not the protagonist will reach his goal(s), who will hook up with who (yes! shallow!), whether or not some secret will be revealed ... and so on.

What I'm saying is basically that it can be really effective to shatter those expectations, but up until the point where that happens there's no difference to the reader. At least not if that reader is me. It's not the suspense about whether or not the protagonist survives that keeps my attention.

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[info]evilprodigy
2005-03-14 04:26 am UTC (link)
I'll have to second your bit about Martin - I just recently read all three A Song of Ice and Fire books, and that really blew me away. It also broke my heart, because I got unhealthily attached to the damn character who's really not my type anyhow. But that's off-topic.

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[info]ankewehner
2005-03-14 11:34 am UTC (link)
Contradicting example from me - not a book, but a comic-series, Crossgen-Sojourn.
The last issue had a scene that made me want to throw the damn thing against a wall. (The two protagonists sneak into a city through some secret tunnel, the end of it leads through a harem, and the women imprisoned there pose for and smile at the complete stranger who just barged in through a door they didin't know about.) It ended with a cliffhanger. For a while I considered still continuing, just to see if he gets out of it, but then I thought "bah, he's been doing voiceover narration, so he'll be alright".

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[info]limyaael
2005-03-15 04:39 am UTC (link)
I can't remember a single example from the fantasy genre where the main protagonist dies. I've read about them being profoundly transformed or suffering extreme loss and disillusionment, but never dying.

The Lions of Al-Rassan.

But, more than that, what I was talking about was the author's assumption that he or she can just rely on the reader to do the work of giving the character a plausible motivation. The hero walks into a stupid situation? Well, the audience doesn't need to worry about how he'll survive, because he's the hero; of course he'll live. Authors rely on that convention far too often, when they should be using features of the story and the story's world to justify the hero's survival instead. I want to see actual smart heroes and heroes who are forced to act because of the circumstances and personalities around them, rather than people who do whatever they have to because of the plot, and get excused because "fantasy heroes are like that." The author doesn't have to kill the character, but I want her to be able to convince me she might.

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[info]tasllyn
2005-11-21 06:24 pm UTC (link)
well, i know i'm chiming in on this REALLY late and stuff, and i know this author is not necessarily a favorite among everyone here, but just on the point of the main character dying in popular fantasy - Moreta (from the book of that title) by Anne McCaffrey in her Pern series. Even if it was described as "going between," I'll admit that I cried at the end of that book when it happened. not really my favorite book in the series, i don't think i've picked it up since, but that was the first example i thought of...

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[info]erythros
2005-03-14 02:08 am UTC (link)
!!! How do you manage to do these just when I am thinking of this aspect of writing?

LIKE MAGIC.

I love point 6 and feed it cookies. It is too late to shove it at Mercedes Lackey.

(I loved that poor Robert Baratheon still got jabbed for his rule and had people muttering that Targaryens were preferable.)

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[info]gehayi
2005-03-14 02:25 am UTC (link)
(I loved that poor Robert Baratheon still got jabbed for his rule and had people muttering that Targaryens were preferable.)

And this despite the fact that madness ran in the Targaryen line (i.e., Aerion Brightflame) or that Aerys was completely insane. It was completely irrational...and very human. That's why I loved that little detail.

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[info]limyaael
2005-03-15 04:46 am UTC (link)
There are several authors it's too late for.

*eats cookies*

(Of course Martin anticipated that. Because Martin is Awesome).

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[info]feathered
2005-03-14 02:25 am UTC (link)
This is one of my favourite rants of yours to date! <3 *memories* This is what I strive for as a writer. Unfortunately, I've been too much of a whimp for it in most things I've written so far... but that's okay. Writing might not be as fun if there weren't so much improvement and refinement to strive for.

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[info]jetamors
2005-03-14 02:26 am UTC (link)
Have you ever read The Parable of the Sower by Octavia Butler? I think you'd like it.

And re point 6: YES OH GOD YES.

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[info]limyaael
2005-03-15 04:47 am UTC (link)
I've read The Parable of the Sower, but only in a classroom situation, where the focus was mainly on the environmental aspects of the book and how accurate her science was- and how OMG depressing it was. I need to try again with it in a situation where I can focus on things that actually interest me.

And re point 6: YES EXACTLY.

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[info]jetamors
2005-03-15 02:37 pm UTC (link)
Are you serious? That's a travesty. I'd say it's one of the most hopeful books I've ever read, even though a lot of nasty stuff happens. And in the sequel, things (in general) get better, without any speshful help from the protagonist or anything, because Butler realizes that things change all over the place and that her characters are not the center of the universe. But I'd better stop before I gush any more.

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[info]rom65536
2005-03-14 04:09 am UTC (link)
Their churches have endured millennia without a schism or a heresy or any complication or obfuscation of what certain things mean—or, if that’s happened, one side is always wrong, and the other side protects the “truth” in some hidden sanctuary.

Well - there's *sometimes* a good reason for this. If your deity comes down from heaven, shows a couple miracles, and then says "It's this way." (as so often happens in both bad fantasy novels and bad fantasy RPGs) no one that belongs to that religion will be able to rightly disagree.

If your god is someone you can sit down to tea with, and chat about the state of the universe, then any schism or heresy in the church will be answered immediately, and it'll either be right or wrong. Of course, then it's not a religion, it's a cult. You've made your god into a person.

Granted, I hate this too. In RPGs, I find myself having to do this when the players are "ROLL" playing, instead of "ROLE" playing (meaning the guy that belches a lot and says "Let's go kill some shit!" has taken control of the game). Doesn't that mean that if I have to do it in a fantasy novel, my characters have started "ROLL" playing, and are just out there "Killing some shit"? In short - yes.

Unless handled carefully, if you god shows up to the high priest's house for tea, take a good look at the car the god is driving....because it is definitely the Machina the Deus has Exed from...

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[info]goldjadeocean
2005-03-14 04:31 am UTC (link)
If your god is someone you can sit down to tea with, and chat about the state of the universe, then any schism or heresy in the church will be answered immediately, and it'll either be right or wrong.

Not necessarily. My religions are run by angels on direct messages, except on many points, they refuse to point out the One True Way. Because what works for some people won't work for others. Some people almost need rules and regulations up the wazoo and some people can't work with any, and my angels won't insist that one group of people is Wrong, and another is Right.

Then again, I write Reformation-era fantasy. In which case people get into holy wars and the angels still refuse to take sides, but get their names plastered over the fights anyway.

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[info]xanath
2005-03-14 05:18 pm UTC (link)
Well, there's historical evidence for schisms happening in the Catholic Church, with the Arians, the era of multiple Popes, the various heretical doctrines that came into being during the 1100 and 1200s . . . all put down ruthlessly by the Church. Wouldn't it be great to use something like that with a religion that was founded by a revealed deity who performed a few miracles and then left?

I'm just thankful, though, that the deities I'm using never really appear.

--Kris

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[info]limyaael
2005-03-15 04:48 am UTC (link)
See, with most fantasy books I've read, the god(s) is/are distant, because writers are afraid of causing the story to just go poof if they appear. And in that case, it really doesn't make sense that the churches never have schisms, and that everyone always knows what the single, pure, appropriate Truth is. Religion causes too many passions in people, and ritual is too important, to just end up as "people who are Right" and "people who know they are Wrong, but trying to hide it."

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[info]onyxflame
2006-03-13 06:46 am UTC (link)
If your god is someone you can sit down to tea with, and chat about the state of the universe, then any schism or heresy in the church will be answered immediately, and it'll either be right or wrong. Of course, then it's not a religion, it's a cult. You've made your god into a person.

Ermm. My gods *are* people. The mortals just don't know it. :P

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[info]holyschist
2005-03-14 04:15 am UTC (link)
or at least comedy in the sense of Shakespeare’s plays

So much can be done with staging. I saw a very peculiar and disturbing production of Measure for Measure once which turned the usual pattern of Shakespearean comedies on its head....

I wonder what could be done with the everything-back-to-normal kind of comedy, skewed.

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[info]evilprodigy
2005-03-14 04:30 am UTC (link)
Now I'm curious. What did that particular production do?

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[info]holyschist
2005-03-14 05:24 am UTC (link)
It was several years ago, so I don't recall terribly well, but it was heavily abbreviated and some of the lines were reassigned. The tidy, happy ending was completely chopped off, and although most of the dialogue was the same, the staging and characterizations were on the whole pretty dark and ominous. It was still a comedy, but much, much darker.

I do remember that Marina never showed up, and Isabella did go through with her bargain to Angelo. There were also intimations of incest between Isabella and her brother (nonconsensual, probably), and it was never quite clear whether Isabella was sane or not.

I'm afraid I can't really describe it any better -- it was a difficult production to describe and a long time ago.

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[info]limyaael
2005-03-15 04:48 am UTC (link)
I'd be interested in seeing it in fantasy, too, but something would have to be done to replace staging, which most books can't use.

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[info]holyschist
2005-03-15 04:51 am UTC (link)
Yes -- maybe have the usual surface trappings of the happy comedy, with darker undercurrents. It would be tricky, though. I'm trying to think of whether I've ever come across anything like that.

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[info]xanath
2005-03-14 04:20 am UTC (link)
I love your ability to pick the truth out of what makes great fantasy, and I am grateful that you're sharing it with the rest of us. I never knew there was a name for what I was doing until now!

--Kris

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[info]limyaael
2005-03-15 04:49 am UTC (link)
*grin* Thank you.

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[info]grimorie
2005-03-14 04:45 am UTC (link)
There should not be, under any circumstances, the sense that the fantasy world has returned to what it was before.

Amen. Amen. Because it can't no matter how much you try the world can never be the same again. Actually I've been head over heals in love with your last two posts and just sent me over the edge. Thank you.

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[info]limyaael
2005-03-15 04:51 am UTC (link)
You're welcome. I think what's caused me more pain lately is not so much fantasy itself as people saying fantasy doesn't have to be anything more than escapism and comfort reading. Well, true, it doesn't have to be in the sense that there are people who enjoy reading those things, but I think the shelves are loaded down with purely escapist books and comfort reading already. I also think fantasy has to change, or eventually it'll stagnate and die. (I've read a few good articles that point out the changes happening, and herald the death of the high fantasy genre, especially in the medieval mode. Probably too early to tell yet if that's true, but I know I haven't enjoyed a work of pure high fantasy in the medieval mode in a long, long time).

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[info]grimorie
2005-03-19 08:07 am UTC (link)
also think fantasy has to change, or eventually it'll stagnate and die.

I agree. And there are too many people who think that fantasy or sci-fi is purely escapist or worse, 'just for kids'.

It just makes me so.... grrr...

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[info]otakukeith
2005-03-14 06:54 am UTC (link)
Wow, wonderful rant.

Look at it reeeeeal hard. When the whole world is changing and shifting and cracking, on the brink of war or destruction or magical catastrophe, would people living in that world, and especially the ones on the front lines of the change, really remain exactly the same? Would they never doubt, shiver, waver, alter?

This is something that ticks me off too - characters who, while the world is clearly falling apart around them, still cling to their stupider mannerisms and behaviour patterns, like thinking all men are idiots. :D

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[info]limyaael
2005-03-15 04:51 am UTC (link)
*grin* I can see characters clinging to that as a comfort, but not everyone would, the way that all Jordan's characters do. And sooner or later, I would expect another character, an event, or something to slap the character in the face and wake her up from her own little preoccupations to the fact that something much, much bigger is happening.

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[info]blunder_buss
2005-03-14 09:07 am UTC (link)
Actually, I got inspired by a norse myth and came up with this fantasy story premise: the majority of the world is split into two major continents. It's seperated by a giant rift, so neither side has any idea on what's on the other. Then suddenly the rift collaspes, and these two sides come into contact for the first time in, well, ever. Each side has different races, religions, weapons, magic, creatures, and societies, and now suddenly they're all on each other's doorstep.

Hilarity ensues.

Anyway, I don't think I could ever write the happy-chappy fantasies you've talked about in this. I'm too cynical. I'm too interested in the fascinating way humans react to different things. I have entirely too much fun stirring up trouble. :D

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[info]marumae
2005-03-14 04:09 pm UTC (link)
Damn, that was fun. Transformative fantasy is what keeps me reading the fantasy genre, even when it seems overrun with clichés. The ones I find affect me like no other books ever have, and maybe like no other books ever will.


Definately agreed, this is my favorite rant up till now that you've done. Transformative fantasies are the ones I eagerly read along with and if they are done right, I come out feeling the most happy when the book is finished. I'd love to write one of my own and this will definitely help. :D

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[info]limyaael
2005-03-15 04:52 am UTC (link)
Good, I'm glad. The world needs more transformative fantasy, and people who are wiling to go out and write it.

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[info]beccastareyes
2005-03-14 07:14 pm UTC (link)
The odd thing is, a lot of the achetypes they beat over my head in lit class in school (I am so sick of the 'Hero's Journey') emphasize sort of a 'false coming-home' -- the hero returns home at the end of the story, but realizes that it will never be the same, as, at the very least, s/he's changed and can't just go back to the civilian life. It's not a circle, it's a spiral -- you go full circle, but don't end up where you started.

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[info]limyaael
2005-03-15 04:53 am UTC (link)
They do that and Tolkien does that, but fantasies that heal too much seem to say that the character has earned the right to have a quiet, undisturbed life. I don't want the author to bend the world into rings just to gratify her character's whim, though. I want to see a world in which it's possible for him to have that quiet, undisturbed life and have it ring true.

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[info]beccastareyes
2005-03-15 05:24 am UTC (link)
I suppose a lot of it is a matter of talent. A writer sees something in another writer's work, thinks 'that's cool' and tries too use it, when it doesn't fit and/or s/he can't sell the idea. Actually I think that's the problem with a lot of thigns in fiction -- it's not that it can't be done, it's that it's usually done poorly.

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[info]bookwormauthor
2005-03-14 09:29 pm UTC (link)
Now I'm wondering whether my NaNovel could fit the Transformative Fantasy criteria. At least some of these things were in my plans from Day 1:

1) Laughs very hard at the thought that anything could 'go back to normal' for my protaganists, and for most of the country. Civil war changes things. Being one of the ringleaders of the civil war changes you. Sorry, characters, you're stuck. There's no simple, happy ending here.

2) Oh, yes, it's going to hurt. Main characters *can* die, fail, be wrong. Friendships can be destroyed. Last-minute rescues are a minute too late, and there are no miracle-working healers. And the only prophecies - well, even I'm not sure whether they're real prophesies or the character's just lying. (Come on, Thad, you know you want to tell me...) Either way, they're no guarantee of success.

3) Well... There's no way of knowing at this point. Once I've dug the crap out with a front-end loader, maybe. I can hope, right?

4) YES! Characters do switch sides, and then switch back, and are indecisive, and make wrong choices. Of course, the fact that they are told halfway through the book that the cause they were fighting for is a lie kind of forces it upon them. Is it better to remain true to a cause, even with new knowledge, or to turn traitor? And what if your friends don't choose the same way? Do you fight against them? And what if the one who told you it was a lie was lying? Why do fantasy writers leave things so black and white when there are all these pretty shades of grey?

5) Nothing pure and simple here. There is no Absolute Right and Wrong, and if there were, finding it amid all the propaganda would be more or less impossible.

6) The only end of growth is death, and not all my characters get that kind of closure. For the rest, I have to just walk away, leaving them to continue trying to pick up the pieces.

Hmmm. Maybe there is some hope for my NaNovel. Time into wade into that garbage pit and try to resurrect the parts that made me want to write it in the first place. Thanks, Limyaael!

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[info]dryaunda
2005-03-14 10:12 pm UTC (link)
“[D]on’t go from stasis to stasis as if nothing had ever happened.”

This is why I hate sitcoms, and especially romantic comedies. "Let's watch another episode of people not admit their very obvious feelings!"

I think there's a gun shop on Mission street, I wonder if they an M-60 there?

“Fantasies tend to face enormous threats, up to and including the destruction of the world. Of course, the number of destroyed fantasy worlds I’ve read about is, uh, well, nil. But even the threat coming close, and having some actual consequences, like wars and human and environmental catastrophe, should have some effect. There should be scars. There should be mourning for the dead.”

Might I recommend Final Fantasy 6j? :)

“Changes don’t have to be backwards, and they don’t have to melt away into stasis, and they don’t have to be only evil. This, I think, is what a lot of fantasists forget. Change is usually represented as evil.”

I always wondered why transhumanism gets bad press -- when it actually gets press...

If I ever write a fantasy story, I plan on making the major plot have something to do with the elective physical alteration of whatever the main race is.

For the record, I have read your rant on message fantasy; no way am I going to make my politics and I look stupid by demonizing bioconservatives.

"Transformative fantasy is what keeps me reading the fantasy genre, even when it seems overrun with clichés."

I'm the same way with fan fiction, especially if it involves radical genre change; Powerpuff Girls do Titanic, Sailor Moon noir, Tenchi makes up his damn mind, that sort of thing.

I like canon snobs as much as poor writing.

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[info]otakukeith
2005-03-15 01:38 am UTC (link)
There is transhuman science fiction - Arthur C. Clarke's Childhood's End, for example, deals with the evolution and final transcendence of humanity.

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[info]alliterator
2005-03-15 04:39 am UTC (link)
Okay, I love your rant. I actually starting writing a short fantasy story about a guy who joins a group of revolutionaries who are actually conmen. They are conning the government, pretending to stir up revolution so that the government will bribe them. It backfires horribly and the country ends up in a civil war. The main character basically abandons his friends at the end of runs away to another country where he decides never to join any group ever again.

And it's supposed to be a comedy.

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[info]pixelfish
2005-09-06 01:18 am UTC (link)
Something about this reminds me of one of my pet peeves--that a lot of fantasies have had the EXACT SAME geography, language, technology, legends, cities, and political alliances for millenia, and after the story is done, will continue to have that exact same pseudo-medieval society for another few millenia. (Then there was another rant of yours where you were talking how you'd like to see science and magic exist side by side. Eventually, and especially after the advent of the printing press, technology would ramp up and we'd get a lot of modern conveniences and concentrated urban populations, and the balance of power would shift, and fads and fashions would come and go. But they never do in Generic Fantasy.)

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[info]merliom
2006-01-31 06:54 am UTC (link)
This was beautiful. Thank you.

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[info]onyxflame
2006-03-13 06:38 am UTC (link)
5) “The truth is rarely pure, and never simple.”

This is the one that keeps showing up over and over in my novel, from the Big Picture (nobody knows what the truth is, although some of them may think they do) down to minor events (the witch's curse, and even she didn't know the whole story). I didn't plan it that way, it just sorta happened. Here's hoping that now that I know about it, I won't screw it up by making it Horribly Obvious.

Oh, and also: sometimes the truth hurts more than anything else can.

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