Limyaael ([info]limyaael) wrote,
@ 2005-03-17 23:32:00
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Current mood: bitchy
Entry tags:fantasy rants: winter 2005, self-editing rants

Rant on authorial nitpicking
Before I start this rant, three caveats:

-I’m writing this as a critical reader, copyeditor at an e-zine, and freshman English teacher, which means I’m writing it as someone who’s thinking of an awful lot of mistakes, both major and minor, that crop up in published fiction, in hopes-to-be-published amateur fiction, and in short stories written by students who’ve told me they hope to be authors someday.

-An author may well have an explanation for something that looks like a mistake to a reader. But if the explanation doesn’t show up in the book, or the following book, or somewhere in the author’s work, the reader has every right to go on thinking it’s a mistake.

-I do think every author should develop as many self-critical and self-editorial faculties as possible, because no one knows your work like you do. Some things will be impossible to judge, others will escape your eye no matter how critical it is, but if your response to every mistake or nitpick is “But!”, you will not like this rant and should not read it.



These are in entirely random order.

1) Keep your character details straight. No one else knows them. Numerous times, when editing a story, I’ve seen a character’s name change in spelling, or the author declare on one page that the character has blue eyes that turn to brown, then go back to blue, then turn to brown again. And I’m left helpless as to what changes I should make, if any, because I am not the one who knows how the character’s name is supposed to be spelled, or what color eyes she has. There are times I’ve gambled and gone with the spelling or color that appears the most, but I could be wrong. There’s just no way to tell.

You are the one who came up with this character’s name, who knows what she looks like, who knows whether this person appearing on page 2 is her mother or her aunt or her cousin. Get used to keeping a mental character dossier in your head that you can access at will. Being away from your notes is no excuse. If you don’t know whether her name is Julianna or Juliette or Juliet, how can you expect anyone else to?

2) Learn to use commas. This is the most frequently abused punctuation mark, no matter the writing. It’s a good story when I only need to put two or three in. Sending a list of corrections about where commas need to appear in every other sentence on a page is tiresome—and also something I’ve done before.

Most confusing are those authors who appear to know their commas for the first three pages of the story, then abruptly abandon them. I can never tell if they were making lucky guesses or got lazy.

For what it’s worth, these are the two most frequent places commas are missing in the work I've read:

-around a name used as a salutation.

“Hey[,] Sunkisser[,] how are you?” Since my mind automatically tries to read this as a sentence about Sunkisser instead of to Sunkisser when it’s without the commas, this is doubly confusing.

And

-in the middle of a long sentence where there should be natural pauses.

“He bent down and retrieved the boots which had been under the bed because they were so dirty there hadn’t been time to clean them last night and he didn’t want the sight of them to embarrass him in front of Sunkisser.” This is a case where you could make some arguments about where the commas go, but I definitely think they need to go somewhere. I’d put them after “boots” and “night,” because that’s where my breath pauses when I’m reading it. Reading a bunch of sentences like this without commas makes me feel tired. It’s not a good thing to do to your readers.

3) Know the natural laws that you use in your story. This is here because fantasy authors, I believe, tend to get spoiled. They can use magic to excuse a whole lot, so they start using it to excuse everything. That’s all fine and dandy if the author explains that it’s magic and why someone is using it, which can be done in a throwaway line. It’s highly unfine and dressed in crumpled clothing when they cut the explanation out of the story altogether and include violations of natural law in an Earth-like world.

I’ve read five stories in the last half a year that all had wolves randomly attacking travelers in the forest. There was absolutely no rhyme or reason to it. The wolves showed up in the middle of summer or fall, attacked, and then ran away. But, see, wolves don’t do that. They’re shy around humans, and generally attack only in winter and only if they’re starving. And if they’re starving, they’re not going to go away because the hero yells at them and manages to get in a lucky strike with his sword.

Could someone be controlling them by magic? Sure. Could they be werewolves? Sure. But the authors didn’t put that in their story. And if it’s not there, it’s unfair of any author to put the burden on the reader for coming up with some explanation that fits. It’s up to the author to craft the magic or do the research that makes this randomness fit by taking away the randomness.

4) Who are these people? Throwing a bunch of different names at a reader in the first three lines is not the way to get them involved in the story. Especially, throwing a bunch of different names that are sufficiently different from any Terran language so as to be hard to pronounce at the reader in the first three lines of the story is not the way to get them involved. Trying to sort out characters from each other will probably take some time. If those character names are mixed with the names of cities, provinces, gods, magic spells, and institutions, it gets harder.

It can work if you’ve got one of the following:

-sufficiently strong characterization skills that the characters start speaking in different “voices” right away.
-names that are easily pronounceable, yet distinct from one another. (Sorting Artisoron, Artisporos, and Artilon from one another will take some time).
-a storyline that focuses on one character, so even though the story might hurtle into a whole bunch of names, the other names drop away for a little while and the reader has a limited number to keep track of, all filtered through the mind of one person who’s becoming increasingly distinct.

Of course, I don’t think that you need a bunch of names at the beginning of a story at all. A novel will give you world enough and time to introduce them, especially as long as many fantasy novels are, and short stories should have a limited enough cast to fit the limited form anyway. But that doesn’t stop people from tossing them in there, and making me spend more time on memorization than I really want.

5) Why should we care? If I get through a short story and am unimpressed, this is most often the culprit. All right (not a real example, but combining traits of several), so this character saw a flash of light over the lake, acquired a stone that sparkles in a vaguely magical way, and was told that he had to leave home. And then…the story ends.

So what? A mysterious event is not a story. Nor is a bunch of mysterious events. Nor is the character having an epiphany and the author not telling the reader what it is, which I’ve seen mar the ends of several otherwise good stories. Okay, so the imprisoned mage meets the king, the king tells him a sad story and shows him a mirror, and then the mage says, “Yes, Your Majesty, I understand,” and is freed to return to his village. What the huh? What did he realize? The author being all mysteeeeeerious about it is silly.

In short stories like this, I often have the feeling that the author is trying to interest me, as a reader, in the world, that this is a tease. It would have been better to send a complete story. In a complete novel that just gives little details without providing a hint of the larger picture, the whole thing exists only as a transition from one book to the other (a common problem with the middle books of fantasy trilogies), which is a cheat.

Readers don’t need to be teased. Being profound does not mean being incomprehensible. Give people a reason to care. If the story is meant as a character sketch, tell us enough about this character that we care about him. If it’s meant as a complete story, there has to be a story there.

6) Having a moral is nothing new. It’s great if you want to teach morals. Hey, more power to you. But when the moral could stand on its own without the framework of the story, or, worse, comes in at the end out of the blue, then I have a problem with it.

The thing you’ve got to remember is that didactic literature really is nothing new. It’s been around forever, and by the time that a lot of people read your story, they’ll be jaded on it. So you’ve got a few choices:

-come up with a way of presenting your moral so enjoyable that the reader loves the story, whether or not she absorbs the lesson.
-present the moral gently, in a framework that makes sense. It might be obvious, but it won’t be a sledgehammer.
-put a new twist on the moral. Really hard to do, actually, especially if your wording sounds just like everyone else’s.
-change the story to suit the message.

I’ve read enough moralistic stories that were bitter pills in the end. Unremarkably, they’re also some of the more poorly-written stories I’ve read. The author hurries along, sacrificing characterization and world detail and plot to the mighty Message. It doesn’t matter what permutations she has to go through to get the lesson in there; it’ll appear.

Oh, yes, that reminds me.

7) What’s true on page 7 should be true on page 107, and 207, and 307, and 407, and so on. This applies even in the case of mysteries or a deliberately twisty and complex story, because, while the author might take the readers in for a while or intrigue them with an apparent inconsistency, the author should know the truth. (In final drafts, if nowhere else). Stating unequivocally on page 7 that the hero’s faith cannot move mountains goes out of the window if his faith moves a mountain on page 107. The author had better come up with one hell of an explanation. If she doesn’t, then she’s had her cake and eaten it too, because I bet you the faith-moved mountain solved a plot problem for her that would have been insurmountable otherwise. And that is bad, because it leaves no cake for the readers.

I’ve heard it argued that fantasy has to be the most realistic of the genres, to convince readers that they’re really in another world, and that it has license to be as unrealistic as it pleases, thanks to inheritance from fairy tales. I think (now) that both are wrong. Fantasy, like any other book of any other genre, gets the chance to invent plenty, such as characters and settings and histories and subplots. But if it doesn’t keep its own rules, if it changes them around whenever the author’s whim changes, then it’s impossible to keep to a consistent or coherent story. Anything might happen next. Suspense dies first, and then characterization, and then the plot, and then the story.

Be especially tough on inconsistencies in your system of magic, and those points in the plot when the hero solves a problem. It had better be possible—not by our own world’s rules, necessarily, but by your own. At some point, the freedom of storytelling collapses, as every choice you make takes away another choice, and you’ve got to be happy with the story you’ve got.

8) Keep the location of physical objects in mind. Please read the following sentences:

Desperate to keep her enemies from finding the hand-carved mirror that Mindy had given her, Kiara threw it into the bushes.

Three days later, and miles from where she left the mirror:

Kiara positioned the hand-carved mirror that was their only hope of salvation against a rock, and smiled in relief. Mindy had known what she was about, when she gave Kiara this farseeing mirror!

…Okay, what? How did the mirror get from the bushes back to Kiara’s hand? Even if the enemies stopped, searched for it, and found it, why in the world would they let her have it back? Why wasn’t there a scene of her stealing it back, if that’s what happened?

This shows up all over the place when the author doesn’t have a good sense for objects. Personal possessions vanish and reappear at random times. The heroine has a bloody wound in her hip at one point, then a “bruise” there a page later. The hero has a trained falcon that he sends off to spy for him, and then it never returns for the rest of the story. A sword gets dropped in a desperate battle, and shows up stuck in a stone. The sun rises in the west. Chaos and anarchy reign.

My personal pet theory for this is that the author is concentrating so hard on people, and making sure that she doesn’t mention a character in the wrong place or have somebody show up after they died, that she doesn’t bother with the objects. If the thing is one unfamiliar to our own daily world, like a telepathic bird, she’s all the likelier not to pay attention to it; it takes time to get into the mind of a character who thinks of the bird as an extension of his body.

Is this really a problem? Yes, when it benefits the plot undeservingly, such as letting Kiara escape with the help of a mirror she has no business having. If the character is horribly wounded and then all right and then horribly wounded again, it’s drama that doesn’t actually present any harm to the character. The telepathic falcon or animal sidekick whom the hero doesn’t use is pointless clutter, one more useless name to remember. The sword that shows up stuck in a stone has apparently violated a physical law. Having the sun rise in the west is a pretty effect that sends your world to hell and gone.

Practice. Think about where your heroes leave things, where the non-human characters are, what’s happened to the heroes in the past that will affect their physical condition. Keep your eye on it, or the inconsistencies can start ripping your story apart, and you won’t even notice.

9) Infodumping in dialogue is STILL INFODUMPING. I’m running into this problem with Jennifer Fallon’s Medalon at the moment. One character, Garet, is reciting history to another, Mahina. Mahina regularly interrupts him with statements like “None of this is news to me,” and “Commandant, I admire your grasp of history, but is there a point to all this?” (45). What makes it even better is that Mahina was a teacher, and has hammered this history into her students’ heads for years. Yet on the infodump goes for two pages, with no information that’s new to Mahina being introduced until after that.

There seems to be this idea that if a fantasy reader doesn’t know everything about the new world she’s in right away, she will scream and have a fainting fit. I really don’t think that’s the case. The sheer number of people who enjoy books like Nine Princes in Amber, where Zelazny does not explain everything and the reader discovers the world as the amnesiac Corwin does, begs to differ. You’ll lose some readers if you delay, but you’ll also lose readers if you infodump. There is no way to snare everyone. And at least the slow-world exploration is often interesting, while infodump is boring and hard to make believable. Yes, dialogue or not.



…This will have to be a two-part rant. No way I can fit everything in here right away.




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[info]kiena_tesedale
2005-03-18 04:50 am UTC (link)
Do you mind if I ask for a spot of advice on number nine? I'm horribly wary of too much exposition, as it used to be my problem when I first started writing, so I'm having issues looking at my current situation objectively.

I have one character, B, who knows a lot about a little-known magic. Character C wants to know more about this magic, as it deeply affects him, but he didn't even know what it really was before he met B. B's willing to explain it all to him, and answer any questions he has.

This magic is the basic magic my story (about novel length) deals with. How much exposition should I show in my conversation between B and C? I've tried to write the scene three times now, sometimes with more exposition, sometimes with less, and I can't decide.

So, as a critical reader - how much exposition would be good? Should I summarize a lot, or go into detail? I figure the best would be to strike a balance between them, but should I lean towards one more than the other?

Completely unrelated, point 8, the missing objects, shows up waaaay too much in published fantasy. I can't even count the number spontaneously reappearing items and disappearing characters I've encountered. It makes me want to throw the book or something when that happens. What lazy *editing*, much less writing.

Great rant, as always. :)

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[info]criada
2005-03-18 08:53 am UTC (link)
Speaking for myself, I can say that when it comes to magic systems, I love to know all the technical nitty gritty. It's a problem my writing suffers from too. I'm obsessed with explaining how everything works, but terrified I'm boring everyone else to death.

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(no subject) - [info]kiena_tesedale, 2005-03-18 09:36 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]blunder_buss, 2005-03-18 12:22 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]edg, 2005-03-18 03:56 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]blunder_buss, 2005-03-19 11:18 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]kiena_tesedale, 2005-03-18 09:39 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]blunder_buss, 2005-03-19 11:18 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]sailor_tech, 2005-03-19 04:24 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]kiena_tesedale, 2005-03-19 05:37 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2005-03-21 02:36 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]kiena_tesedale, 2005-03-21 03:07 am UTC

[info]dsgood
2005-03-18 04:59 am UTC (link)
Note that readers and critiquers may take something as story-fact because a character has said it. Which probably means it's a good idea to make sure the reader knows the character is untrustworthy or badly-informed.

Infodumps: sf writers used to have boring characters give them; such a character can be expected to drone on about things everyone knows. This does not work for me.

What can work is when the speaker is saying something very different from what the listener thinks is true. "As you know, Bob, Stalin was a pacifist" told to someone who accepts the consensus view of Soviet history, for example.

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"As you know, your father, the King..."
[info]the_s_guy
2005-03-18 04:01 pm UTC (link)
Yup. Otherwise it's too often what Dad always refers to as "As you know, your father, the King," writing. Horribly, horribly bad and obvious infodumping.

*shudder*

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2005-03-21 02:39 am UTC

[info]buymeaclue
2005-03-18 05:22 am UTC (link)
Nor is the character having an epiphany and the author not telling the reader what it is, which I’ve seen mar the ends of several otherwise good stories.

I would argue this one, I think. It cannn work, but it's all in the handling. So what else is new? Some of my very favorite stories do this, or something very much like it, and it works beautifully--because, as the story is written, the author doesn't have to tell me what it is. I get it. I already know, or will very shortly.

My best example is Susan Perabo's (mainstream story) "Explaining Death to the Dog." It's nnnot precisely this, as the epiphany is on the reader's part, not the character's. But the effect is similar to a well-written character epiphany story. I read it. I thought, "Hmm.." I stood up, walked across the room, and then got it like a sledgehammer to the forehead.

I actually think a lot of stories go on toooo long. They tell toooo much and respect the reader tooooo little. If the writer is doing her job, the hints and clues will be there and the reader will understand without being spoonfed. When it works, it's a bee-you-tee-full thing.

(Granted, a lot of the time it doesn't work. But that's [IMO/E] a fault in the execution, not in the technique.)

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[info]limyaael
2005-03-21 02:40 am UTC (link)
It didn't work with the story in question. Six editors, of whom I was one, all read the story and were puzzled by what the revelation at the end was supposed to mean. Given what the author did elsewhere in the story, I really think that she was more interested in showing off. And I'm always in favor of clarity before any big moral message or Deep Meaning. If multiple people, all of whom are reasonably intelligent, don't get it, then the problem is the story's, not the readers'.

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[info]graygirl
2005-03-18 05:31 am UTC (link)
Amen, and huzzah.

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[info]limyaael
2005-03-21 02:42 am UTC (link)
Thank you. ;)

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[info]ladyshina
2005-03-18 05:48 am UTC (link)
Wow, this is such a wonderful rant. I can't help but agree with you on every single point, especially on point four. One of the major reasons that I never got past one-fourth of the fantasy novels I borrowed is that I had gotten lost on the very beginning of the novel, when the author dumped on me half a dozen complicate character names and expected me to remember them all. I didn't, of course, so I'd have to glance back every other sentence to re-read just who that character was and just what he had said several dialogue lines before. When that happened, I gave up on the novel altogether.

Thanks for the rant! :)

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[info]limyaael
2005-03-21 02:43 am UTC (link)
You're welcome. Point 4 is a big one for me because almost all the fantasy novels I really like don't overwhelm the reader with names; they pile up only slowly, and the reader has a chance to get used to important new characters before new important ones are introduced. If many minor characters do show up, they're not as important. Even better, the whole plot doesn't depend on remembering who Lord Mentioned-Once-On-Page-Fifty is, which is something I find deeply, deeply annoying.

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[info]tsuki_no_bara
2005-03-18 06:04 am UTC (link)
you hit all my continuity buttons. ^_^ nothing makes me throw a book as hard as the author forgetting what he or she was talking about, and then completely contradicting him or herself. i keep hitting it in comic books more than in novels (strangers in paradise being a particularly crackheaded non-marvel example...), but i'm hyper-aware of it in my own writing. altho i do occasionally have problems with wandering commas.... *ahem*

re #4 - i remember being told in a college creative writing class, "did you know you introduced nine people on the first page?" i introduced fourteen people by name in the first two pages, and i didn't even realize until someone in the class pointed it out. and then i went back and counted, and was kind of embarrassed. i knew who everyone was, but i didn't have to give them ALL names, and i certainly didn't have to introduce them all at once, especally since the story was probably all of six pages long.... >.<

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[info]limyaael
2005-03-21 02:45 am UTC (link)
All these points are harder to watch for in one's own writing than the writing of others, I agree. But since I seem to read a lot of stories where the authors didn't bother to develop any self-critical faculties at all, just decided the editors would fix it for them, I think even a small effort at them is better than none.

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[info]catfish42
2005-03-18 06:34 am UTC (link)
Your entire rant is brilliant, but I really have to thank you for the most mundane, which is point number 2. Commas. Oh, commas. I'm taking a creative writing class where we critique each other's work, and the biggest thing that I end up correcting in every single paper is the damn commas.

These are college students, some are seniors even! It boggles my mind. I mean, I'm not perfect myself (and, as is inevitable when making a post about commas, I will no doubt misuse one myself in this very comment), but they just seem to have no *concept* of how to use the damn things. They just... throw them in at random, or not at all. And worse, a lot of them don't seem to think it's important. "That's what editors are for," one of them said. And, well, if *I* was an editor and got a paper like theirs, fairly or not my assumption would be that their writing skills would be as bad as their grammar and I simply wouldn't waste my time.

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[info]limyaael
2005-03-21 02:46 am UTC (link)
I think how comfortable one is with the rules of English grammar has a lot to do with how much one reads. I tend not to have a lot of situations where I pause and say, "Is that how that goes?" outside of copyediting. It's instinctive for me, because I've read so much.

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(no subject) - [info]catfish42, 2005-03-21 03:24 am UTC

[info]gamera
2005-03-18 06:52 am UTC (link)
I completely agree with #1- but I have to say that copy-editing, I've seen more people who throw commas around like they're going out of style than I have not using enough, which is just as annoying to me as a reader. Granted, that's in nonfiction (news writing), not fiction.

#4 is my absolute favorite on this list, though. My current project only has three characters important enough to named and remembered (the two protagonists and the antagonist), which should be an interesting experiment.

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[info]gamera
2005-03-18 06:52 am UTC (link)
...and when I said 1 I meant 2. It's late and I'm tired.

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(no subject) - [info]mollydot, 2005-03-18 01:17 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2005-03-21 02:48 am UTC

[info]tiferet
2005-03-18 07:00 am UTC (link)
I continuity-edited a small press mag for a couple of years and am giving you a standing ovation.

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[info]limyaael
2005-03-21 02:49 am UTC (link)
Thanks. I've only been at formal editing for a year, though teaching- and of course critical reading- for longer than that, so it's good to know my experiences aren't isolated.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]starkittyn
2005-03-18 07:03 am UTC (link)
Excellent rant. Definitely some good points to consider if one aspires to being a good writer. Thanks1

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[info]limyaael
2005-03-21 02:50 am UTC (link)
You're welcome.

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[info]eleyan
2005-03-18 08:32 am UTC (link)
wot they said.
Seriously, there's so much meat in this, I'll come back to it time and again. The whole infodump process is one that everybody seems to wrestle with, and so many published writers get it wrong.
The other side of the coin, of course, is not doing enough of it. This, I think, might come from a fanfic background, where one is playing in a sandpit that everybody is familiar with, so you don't need to spend pages describing what the silver trees of Lorien look like. Yet, even so, a lot of fanfics still manage to have pages of dead exposition, often in a form I particularly dislike, of having a main character standing around having an internal monologue in which they relate the entire history of their race.
"Lord Celeborn stood gazing at the silver trees of Lorien. He remembered the day he had first seen them, after leaving Doriath..." and so on for too many pages.

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[info]sanguimane
2005-03-18 09:22 am UTC (link)
BUT... oh, darn!

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[info]otakukeith
2005-03-18 11:30 am UTC (link)
There seems to be this idea that if a fantasy reader doesn’t know everything about the new world she’s in right away, she will scream and have a fainting fit. I really don’t think that’s the case. The sheer number of people who enjoy books like Nine Princes in Amber, where Zelazny does not explain everything and the reader discovers the world as the amnesiac Corwin does, begs to differ.

Oh hell yes! That was a stroke of genius on Zelazny's part (though I daresay it wasn't the first time amnesia has been used for that purpose). His world was so bizarre and complicated, with so many important characters, that it would have required an insane amount of transparent infodumping or highly intelligent readers if there hadn't been a need to give Corwin the information as well.

I'd love to see more reviews of specific series/authors from you, e.g. on Amber or on stuff that's bad.

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[info]limyaael
2005-03-21 02:51 am UTC (link)
I think I'm going to start doing more specific reviews. Lately, I've been trying to read books that people have recommended to me, which means that I can start either writing reviews of stuff that is actually GOOD or stuff that I had problems with which the recommending people didn't mention/didn't care about/didn'ts ee.

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[info]inarticulate
2005-03-18 11:32 am UTC (link)
Question about #7-- what if the characters themselves don't know [insert thing such as the potential of magic or the identity of the enemy here]? It tends to come across as changing the 'truth' sometimes, but is there any way that an author can avoid that without eliminating the process of change that the base of knowledge the characters are drawing on goes through? Is the author's knowledge itself enough to give subtext, do you think?

Apologies if I worded that in a confusing way. Just woke up to an excellent rant. :) Continuity is one of the hardest things for me if I don't have a cheat sheet in a separate document, and... yes. Oh, the infodump.

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[info]snapes_angel
2005-03-18 12:55 pm UTC (link)
For the bit with the mirror, I usually end up treating it like a character. If it's tht important to the plot then it needs to be rescued.

A friend of mine over on the OWW list thinks that commas are overused and would prefer none (or so it seems) to appear within the context of a story. I'm glad that you think, "hey, commas aren't as bad as you think but..." You have reinforced my faith in the English language. Thank you!

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[info]almeda
2005-03-19 04:14 am UTC (link)
You just gave me a sudden urge to attempt to write an entire short story without using a single comma. None. Not one.

It's like writing a paragraph completely without the letter 'e' -- I'm not sure I could DO it, but if I can pull it off it might well be cool to read. :->

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

the language of birds - [info]sanguimane, 2005-03-19 08:59 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]almeda, 2005-03-21 02:26 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]snapes_angel, 2005-03-19 08:23 pm UTC

[info]reiknight
2005-03-18 01:16 pm UTC (link)
2: I find that when I get a sentance where there aren't any commas where they should be, my eyes tend to zip along at lightspeed, and I have a lot of trouble making myself slow down and actually read the damned piece of writing.
Wnen there are no commas, I know nothing about the book, even if I read it a hundred damned times.

As usual, very good rant! It came just in time, as I'm editing my own work before handing it over to the proofies.
I can edit other people's work OK, but my own... some of the mistakes are really obvious, and I gloss straight over them.
It takes my dyslexic little brother to find Big Bloopers.
I shall go hide my head now...

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[info]tavalya_ra
2005-03-18 03:46 pm UTC (link)
1. I can honestly say that I don't have this problem. What may confuse the reader is that a certain character may be referred to by first name by POV characters who know him well and by last name by those who don't. However, none of my readers have complained about this yet. (I have gotten the complaint that too many people in my prologue have a name that begins with "A.")

2. I try to maintain comma awareness- I look at my sentences critically and try to decide if they make sense with or without the commas. I'm sure I slip up frequently, but I do try.

4. Yes, there are a bunch of people in the prologue, but I think they are distinct from one another. In the chapters, I introduce characters in stages. (It probably helps that I kill a lot of them off, too.) I consider my story character-driven; if it isn't, then I have some revision to do!

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[info]limyaael
2005-03-21 02:53 am UTC (link)
I tend to create characters whose names all start with the same letter accidentally, but I also tend to decide which one is most important, keep that name, and switch the others out if it becomes a problem. Of course, I think it's not, really, if the characters are always in different scenes or on opposite sides of the world. (This is a sneaky line of reasoning that has let me keep some names I really like).

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[info]edg
2005-03-18 04:17 pm UTC (link)
#2 - I largely agree, but the absence of commas can also be used to excellent effect - particularly in passages where, although there would normally be pauses, the author intends the passage to be read without them. Here's an example from Terry Pratchett's Reaper Man:

The crowned Death saw it coming and raised its own weapon but there was very possibly nothing in the world that would stop the worn blade as it snarled through the air, rage and vengeance giving it an edge beyond any definition of sharpness.


#7 - I think you're reading "realism" in the wrong way there; what I suspect the speaker means by "realism" is "like the real world", and conversely "unlike the real world" for "unrealism"; fantasy, according to these speakers, should be in equal parts realistic (so that the reader can connect) and unrealistic (so that there's a non-real-world element).

The term I think you're looking for is verisimilitude, which is an indicator of internal consistency. It's very, very often used interchangeably with "realism", but the two aren't perfect synonyms. (Sorry, pet peeve. Much like "whence" means "from where" so you can all stop writing "from whence" dammit *cough* sorry.)

That said, I agree 100%. ;)

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[info]kiena_tesedale
2005-03-19 05:44 pm UTC (link)
Much like "whence" means "from where" so you can all stop writing "from whence" dammit *cough* sorry.

The Merriam-Webster dictionary disagrees with you, in that it believes that 'from whence' is valid, though it's possible (or even likely) it's one of those things that changed as the English language changed. Like 'literally' is changing right now, and it drives me insane.

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(no subject) - [info]edg, 2005-03-19 05:46 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2005-03-21 02:55 am UTC

[info]marumae
2005-03-18 06:46 pm UTC (link)
You know, much of this is common sense but it's amazing how many authors (especially me) screws a lot of this up. Though I have to say, for #2. I think I'm a little too comma happy. XD

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[info]limyaael
2005-03-21 02:56 am UTC (link)
Thanks.

Most comma-happy problems I've seen are when they're used in place of sentences or semicolons. I think sometimes people forget that conversation is different than writing, and just because they can speak a sentence all the way through aloud doesn't mean it can be that connected when they write it down.

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[info]lexica510
2005-03-18 07:07 pm UTC (link)
<applause>

Some things will be impossible to judge, others will escape your eye no matter how critical it is, but if your response to every mistake or nitpick is “But!”, you will not like this rant and should not read it.

I think this should actually be "you will not like this rant, but it is even more important that you read it."

4) Who are these people? Throwing a bunch of different names at a reader in the first three lines is not the way to get them involved in the story.

I think this is one of the sources of my aversion to renaissance Italy (or alt-renaissance-Italy) as a story setting - the ones I've tried have all fallen into this pit. Way too many people with unclearly-specified relationships and way too many names and titles, without having done enough story work to give me mental hooks to hang the names on.

If I'm less than five pages in and already wishing for a family tree or a listing of Dramatis Personae, I'm probably not going to continue reading.

#9 - yes, yes, yes! It's a real pleasure for me to find an author who doesn't feel the need to explain everything. An author who can interweave the explanations seamlessly, without making me feel like I'm reading an encyclopedia or a brochure from the fantasy land's tourism bureau, is an author whose work I'm going to seek out. I'd much rather be reading along, thinking, "Wait, what? That's interesting... what does that mean about this society? Huh..." than have everything laid out for me.

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[info]limyaael
2005-03-21 02:59 am UTC (link)
I think this should actually be "you will not like this rant, but it is even more important that you read it."

Reason I didn't is that I've run into far too many people (usually strangers who, say, posted character profiles in a community and asked for critiques) who dismiss every criticism with, "But!" and then come up with an exception as to why their character should be the most powerful mage in the world, or how sometimes a mule can produce a child, or how of course half-breed heroes should always be raised in tragic circumstances. They decide that the exception is what they'll focus on, rather than asking if the exception is needed.

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[info]everyonesakitty
2005-03-18 09:46 pm UTC (link)
ah, I like #9. I see this so often in even published work; the author thinks it's okay to have character tell me things I need to know in long boring paragraphs and speeches. If a story element is important, I think it should be dramatized and explored through the plot.

(nice to meet you by the way... I've been reading and enjoying your rants for a couple months now.) :)

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[info]limyaael
2005-03-21 03:00 am UTC (link)
Hello. Nice to meet you.

And I agree- 9 is the most common in published work, especially in debut fantasy novels. Editors seem to feel it's one of those things authors can only grow out of with time, or that fantasy authors will have the aforementioned fainting fit without the infodumps. I wish they would realize how many times those infodumps can convince the audience not to read further, and thus get them irritated with the author.

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[info]rom65536
2005-03-19 05:30 am UTC (link)
Zelazny's Amber books were the first "non-kiddie" fantasy novels I read. My sister's boyfriend at the time saw me reading one of the Narnia books, ran to his car and brought me Nine Princes. Dan....I'd like to say "Thanks a million."
It was such a pleasure to discover the intricate world along with Corwin. I've rarely found a fantasy book that could suck me in the way Nine Princes did. Of course, it had other problems - but all in all, it was a marvelous book.

As for picking at nits, I think the worst I've ever perpetrated on my reader (at least the worst one that's been caught - these things can be pretty devious and cunning when trying to hide) was having the hero watch the sunset and sunrise happen over the same water at the same beach. Having mountains at the character's back as he watched the sun dip into the waves at night, then standing with the same mountains to his back and watching the sun rise up from the water at dawn...
That little blunder lasted through two re-writes on the chapter, only to be caught by a proof-reading magazine editor (that was thankfully a good friend of mine). It was still a pretty inept, bumbling mistake.

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This is awesome!
[info]saadiira
2005-03-20 10:07 am UTC (link)
These are subjects near and dear to the heart. I very much like this rant.

I just did part one of a rant on how to accomplish 1, 3, 7, and 8, though mostly 1, and 8, simply because I've been seeing so much of this in print of late.

I've also seen the rest of this in print, of late (the problems detailed), as well, and it's truly annoying.

Thank you so much for again summing up what the problem is! :)

-Dira-

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[info]jdparadise
2005-03-21 06:41 pm UTC (link)
Hah!

>The heroine has a bloody wound in her hip at one point, then a “bruise” there a page later.

I can do you one better. In the work I'm outlining (OUTLINING, mind you. There's No Way I Could Have Forgotten This And Yet I Somehow Did):

Chapter 10. Pel is castrated as punishment for being caught in bed with the wrong woman.

Chapter 30: The same woman, who watched him castrated, tries to get him to sleep with her.

Now that's an effort doomed to failure.

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[info]robling_t
2005-03-22 02:47 pm UTC (link)
{...trying to think of a delicate way to raise an objection on the technical grounds} Um, well, maybe, maybe not, depending; there are certainly stories of eunuchs, particularly when castrated as adults, retaining various degrees of, err, capability -- it's only if you're trying to get the lady pregnant by it that you're, well... screwed. ;) If all she's after is a bit of fun, hey, just stretch that imagination a little farther... and I'm squicking myself now so I'll shut up, thankyouverymuch. :)

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Hi
[info]quacker_z
2005-03-21 09:38 pm UTC (link)
"4) Who are these people?"

One particular authoress came to mind: Anne McCaffrey. I only finished one of her books and got less than halfway through another. There are too many minor characters to keep track of, and I kept finding myself flipping back to the 'Dragondex' at the back of the book(Who was he again?). I like the way she strengthens the bond between dragons and humans in her novels. However, I believe the stories would go a lot better if so many chars weren't introduced all at once. First, it's just a few, then a dozen, then more, then it gets confusing. Plus, you need the remember the dragons' names, too.(Why should I care about the minor characters if they don't really do anything in the story anyway?)

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