Limyaael ([info]limyaael) wrote,
@ 2005-04-02 21:24:00
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Current mood: tired
Entry tags:fantasy rants: spring 2005, war rants

Army rant
Had to divide this in two, because of the length it got to.



You could subtitle all these first three "Fuel," really.

1) Food. Many authors quote the statement that an army travels on its stomach, but few authors do anything with it. Where are the supply wagons, the long lines of cattle that surely must be slaughtered to provide all the meat that everyone seems to be eating, the cooks that prepare the stew or broth or salads? Where are the forage parties that bring in food from the surrounding area, if the army doesn't bother with supply wagons? Where are the eventual replacements for the bottomless bags of dried rations that soldiers in other fantasy armies carry with them?

Each of these situations will have its problems that must be dealt with. The solution is to deal with them. You can get mileage and even, I bet, plot points out of it. But if you want your readers to believe that these soldiers really are eating, and especially if you want descriptions of lavish meals, you'll have to study ways to take care of it.

Supply wagons? The main problem with long supply lines is that they can be cut. So perhaps an army can't venture that far from a central storehouse because of that. Perhaps the other side comes galloping in, burns the supply wagons, and drives the cattle off. Perhaps the first army in your world that discovers an absolutely infallible way to protect their supply lines is going to win every battle. Play around with this. Have fun with it.

Foraging from the land? Well, the enemy might burn their own crops, to keep the army from taking them. (And then you get famines, one of those other problems that, for some reason, Do Not Exist in a lot of military fantasy fiction). There's also the fact that, depending on the season and the terrain, there might not be very much to eat around, and the hit-and-miss factor of hunting is high. And if the enemy notices that the army is foraging, they might manage to lay ambushes for them in what look to be plentifully stocked villages; illusion magic could help with that.

Soldiers bringing supplies? The main problem is that there's a limit to what a soldier can carry, and unless you give everyone a bottomless backpack, they'll need to restock soon. Perhaps they stop by villages, perhaps they then resort to foraging, or perhaps they have a nifty magical solution, like someone teleporting in with food from the home front. All of those could be plot situations, as well- what happens when their tense visit to a village explodes in violence, or they eat something unfamiliar that makes them too sick to move for a day, or an enemy archer manages to take out the teleporter?

Paying attention to food difficulties could be a godsend where sluggish fantasy plots that are basically "army marches in, they fight, the army kills everybody, lather, rinse, and repeat" are concerned.

2) Fire. Most armies burn wood. Okay. But where does the wood come from? An army should either be denuding forests as it marches along, or have a supply of wood brought in wagons, or be using small sticks and scattered bits of wood- all of which suffer the same problems as those ways of finding and transporting food.

Fire has a different but related problem, however, and that depends on the terrain. Wooded country? Not a problem. But when an army is passing through a desert, I always wonder where they manage to find that wood they're burning. Ditto for grasslands, swamps (unless the author notes that the swamps have trees), mountains, and snowy wastes. Eventually, they'd run out of wood that they brought with them, probably long before they moved out of a big expanse of said country, and either have to go without fires or use something else.

Dung might be possible, especially on grasslands where there's grazing animals around that drop large loads of it. Grass could work, though in that case the flames would burn pretty quickly and they'd have to have some other way of starting the fire than by using two sticks rubbed together. If they're near a peat bog, they could use that, but the peat might be a bitch to dig up.

Or they could have no fires at all, which most fantasy authors only see as an option when enemies are stalking the heroes. Take note of it as a purely realistic detail, though. Do they have food that needs to be cooked, are they in a country where they would freeze to death without it, or do they use fires as a signal for sentries and scouts? If not, then there might be no reason for a fire, or only the commanders and other high-ranking people might have them.

3) Mounts. Horses are marching fuel problems, since they eat a lot, and to keep in top condition they can't graze all the time (unless they were originally wild horses, I suppose, and used to living on such fare). Warhorses and horses that draw big heavy supply wagons will especially need to eat a lot. They need plenty of water, too, which may limit the places the army can camp. And depending on the country of origin, there might not be very many horses in an army. If your country uses a typical hierarchical society based on wealth, then probably only the richest classes can afford horses, and certainly only the richest can afford the time and money and breeding that it takes to get steeds trained as good war mounts.

Also, what about that terrain they're crossing? Horses will be good on grassland or in a forest with wide enough trails for them to pass. Only certain breeds of horses do well in the desert, there will be problems in the mountains, and it's hard to see much use for a cavalry on an arctic waste where a magical blizzard never stops blowing. Before you automatically include a cavalry division, even for scouts (see point 5), ask yourself if they would really work.

The same problems, especially the fuel ones, apply to different kinds of mounts:

-Camels. Hardy enough in the deserts, and the Bactrians do all right in cold, but elsewhere, their bad tempers and slower pace would probably make them second choice to other kinds of steeds.
-Elephants. Oh, yes, they're strong, but they eat and drink far more than horses do. If you're going to include elephants in your armies, your readers will probably take interest in the supply problem that they don't if it's just horses and the usual hand-waving about "grazing."
-Donkeys/mules. Hardier than horses, they can serve more easily as pure pack animals, and they're better in the mountains, and they eat less. The main problem, as with camels, is their tempers; a mule that decides it doesn't want to pull its load up a mountain trail is going to cause backups all along the line.
-Dragons. The advantages of them are obvious, which I think is why so many fantasy novels use them as war machines. But if the dragons are reptilian, though they might not need to eat often (just like giant snakes such as anacondas), they'll gorge themselves when they need to. And since many authors represent draconic tempers as awful, they probably wouldn't be willing to wait. An army would have to keep a supply of meat on hand at all times, just in case that was the day a dragon got hungry.

4) Sentries. It irritates me when a passel of attacking heroes can just stroll straight into the enemy's camp because the enemy sentries do stupid things like pace the exact same beat, meet in the exact same place, and yell out the exact same coded phrases all the time (why yes, hello again, Robert Jordan). I don't think any army commander who's managed to last in the field would be that stupid. The sentries are likely to have precautions, some obvious and not so obvious, to keep heroes from sneaking in, and if the heroes' army doesn't have them, it damn well should.

Among some of the more common-sense things:

-Sentries that keep out of sight and quiet, perhaps in a tree, have a decided advantage. A scout snooping about is less likely to see them, while they have at least an even chance of seeing the scout. And if they're archers, then that might be one spy who'll take an arrow in his throat and never go wailing back to his masters.
-Sentries may double back, use erratic speeds, and show up at unexpected points in their courses if they do pace. That ensures a surprise to someone who thinks he's estimated their beat and is creeping across the lines.
-A system of passwords would almost certainly be in use if the sentries had to go and report to the commander or general. A hero who steals a sentry's garb and after that waltzes through the camp makes me snort through my nose. It's as though the stupid enemies just look at the clothing and decide, "Yep, he's passable!"
-When sentries changed shifts, and especially if they called out and no one answered, I would expect them to linger and wait, rather than blithely marching into a trap. And, of course, finding an unconscious or dead guard is just the thing to rouse the camp, assuming the hero has managed to get in undetected. He should at least take time to hide the body.
-Why should sentries watch alone when they know the enemy is out there and might try sabotage? Pairs or trios guarding a big army would make plenty of sense, as thousands of soldiers would mean that the same person wouldn't be watching night after night, and they could support each other if trouble came calling.

5) Scouts. Little attention gets paid to them, poor dears. There's the occasional messenger who comes dashing into a camp and flings himself down sobbing before the commander, usually right before the heroes' army falls on the enemies like an A-bomb, but otherwise, they're...well, out there somewhere, surely, doing important things, but not actually existing until the author needs one on screen.

An army advancing across enemy territory will need all the help it can get from its scouts. One man or woman alone can move more lightly and quickly than an entire marching army, can spy out traps that the enemy might have set up, can note features of the landscape that will prove a problem and report on them, and stands a better chance of going unnoticed. An enemy that manages to kill all the scouts and thus blind the army has an enormous advantage.

So, some ideas about scouts:

-They don't have to ride horses. Really. If their biggest concern is going unseen, a horse will be a hindrance rather than a help, since it makes more noise, eats a lot, leaves more recognizable tracks (and manure), and can't climb a tree or wriggle into a tight space the way a hunted scout can. If the main concern is speed, then you might need cavalry.
-Scouts with magic would be valued. Someone who can, say, pass telepathic messages back before venturing further into danger has three advantages: a) faster reporting, b) less chance of being stopped, as might occur if she tried to send a messenger bird, and c) no need to perform a physical return to the camp that might get her captured along the way or waste time.
-Scouts will die, since the enemy will be watching for them and treat them as moving targets. Here's a nice way to put your hero in a dangerous situation.
-Consider having non-human spies. If the heroes have a mage who can use her eyes to watch the enemy through an animal (a concept I've seen in both Pratchett and Saberhagan), or an intelligent animal that goes out, watches, and comes back, or a shapeshifter, the enemy will have a harder time stopping them.

6) Weapons. The heroes had better take good care of these, because, depending on the way you set your army up, they might not get any more.

For example, say there are a lot of conscripted peasants in the army. Where are they going to get their weapons? They may actually be forbidden to use things like swords in times of peace, or they may not be able to afford them. Perhaps the army has a traveling armory with it. Imagine what would happen if enemies managed to attack and make off with the wagons or chests or whatever else comprises the armory.

If a blade breaks or rusts, what will your hero do? Fetch a blade from the armory, maybe, or get a blacksmith to make him one. Either will necessitate some kind of presence there (and an army with a lot of horses will probably have a blacksmith to act as farrier anyway). It may take time and cost some money, and if the enemy attacks the next day while the army is peacefully sleeping, the hero might be without a sword.

Archers will use up a lot of arrows, often without hitting anything. Have them scour battlefields afterward for the leftover ones. Or show bowyers and fletchers traveling with the army. Do some research on bows, too, to make sure that your "fragile and delicate" archer heroine can actually draw the bow she's using. It takes enormous strength in the upper arms to pull the weight of the bigger ones.

What about artillery? Well, most fantasies are reluctant to allow gunpowder to intrude into their worlds. But you might have big, clumsy cannons, which will almost certainly need to be drawn around on wheels, get stuck in mud, require horses or strong, patient men, take time to load, and require teams to do said loading, pulling, and care of the gun itself. In a world without gunpowder, there will probably still be catapults, ballistae, special siege towers, and so on. They share some of the same problems, particularly "What are you going to make them out of?" for siege towers, and getting stuck in the mud and ditches if they have to be pulled long distances.

7) Commanders. This depends on the size and condition of your army. If it's small, a few hundred men, then the commander might have time to see to most problems himself. After a long stretch of boring waiting, he might be glad to.

However, in a huge army, with thousands of people and where important things are happening all the time, the highest-ranking commander or general has no particular reason to take precious minutes out of her day to interview the newest recruits who think they've seen ghosts at night or something of the kind. That's why she has juniors in rank. The juniors will probably take a look at the problem first and see if it needs to be passed up the line, and even then, it will probably go to a second-in-command before the general or high commander herself.

(This is included purely because I've read one too many fantasies where the heroes are taken captive and marched through thousands of soldiers to see the general at once, when there's no evidence that they're particularly important to the opposing side. Now, if the author indicates that there are high ransoms for them, or if one of the heroes is stupid enough to blurt out that he's the opposing commander's son or something, that might be different).



The navy will be tomorrow, I think.




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[info]tainted4life
2005-04-03 03:18 am UTC (link)
Yes, yes, God bless you, YES THANK YOU SO MUCH.

AND I AM LOOKING STRAIGHT GODDAMN AT YOU, TERRY GOODKIND.

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[info]limyaael
2005-04-04 10:09 pm UTC (link)
Would this be about the part where he had an army attack naked in the snow?

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(no subject) - [info]tainted4life, 2005-04-04 11:46 pm UTC

[info]yhlee
2005-04-03 03:41 am UTC (link)
I love you. I whine about this stuff to my poor beleaguered husband. I'm not alone!!!

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[info]limyaael
2005-04-04 10:09 pm UTC (link)
*grin* Just glad to know that my guesses weren't totally wide of the mark (since the place I have the most actual technical knowledge is the animals).

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(no subject) - [info]yhlee, 2005-04-04 10:18 pm UTC

[info]daveamongus
2005-04-03 03:57 am UTC (link)
In Iraq, we manned defensive positions with no fewer than two people and within sight of not only adjacent defensive positions, but also this little thing called "Sergeant of the Guard." SoG and his supernumeraries performed all manner of checking on posts to insure discipline and readiness, all hours of day and night. Now, we had fixed positions, so the question of pacing wasn't quite apt (in fact, it made us quite the targets for potshots, but it's common sense as far as patroling goes. Patrol the same routes in the same ways, and you're ripe for ambush, which is exactly what did happen to some units in Iraq.

The other thing is, don't assume that just because a general is a general, she has gotten there by being a savvy warrior, or that all sentries take their jobs perfectly seriously. Also, not all units are created equally. Our Marine rifle company easily outshone a company of Army airborne recon guys in most every way, to the point that the base commander singled us out for our contributions just before we left, while the recon guys were sent off to the Syrian border as fast as possible. (Of course, I am biased. :) )

And then there's luck, which is a hard thing to fit into a story that has to be plausible; I'm alive and whole today because some idiot insurgent could not, quite literally, hit the broadside of a barn with a rocket designed to chase aircraft. Our Marines stopped a serious attack only because a suicide bomber turned left when he should have just driven straight.

Incidentally, in the modern military it's SOP to change challenge-and-passwords on a daily basis. Probably the most well-known, thanks to things like Saving Private Ryan and Band of Brothers is the D-Day challenge-and-password of Flash and Thunder. But that was not the challenge-and-password for the whole war, or even the whole invasion. Once communication could be reestablished through out the theatre, those words were changed again and again. In a training exercise, years ago, my section got lit up by Marines from another section in our platoon, because they gave us the next day's challenge and were expecting the next day's password.

And none of this stuff is new to the modern military.

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[info]limyaael
2005-04-04 10:12 pm UTC (link)
Thanks for that. It makes things more complicated, and I always suspect that complication is what a good many of these fantasy plots are missing. It beats me how authors will dump all the complexity in their politics and forget that the hero getting in trouble because he doesn't know the new password can be just as exciting as the head politician blabbing on about who wants to inherit the throne.

The other thing is, don't assume that just because a general is a general, she has gotten there by being a savvy warrior, or that all sentries take their jobs perfectly seriously.

No, one can't assume that. But far too many fantasies assume that all generals are incredible assholes who had no reason (not even political nepotism) for getting to where they are, and all sentries are blithering idiots.

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(no subject) - [info]daveamongus, 2005-04-04 10:27 pm UTC

[info]wanderingbhikkh
2005-04-03 04:02 am UTC (link)
...man, I think this is the first one I flunked.

Time to rework the WHOLE first third of the book...

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[info]limyaael
2005-04-04 10:13 pm UTC (link)
If I can ask, what was it that I said? After all, a lot of these can be gotten past with magic or good plotting.

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[info]holyschist
2005-04-03 04:12 am UTC (link)
Thought: if a very large boa constrictor, say, or giant python eats a GOAT every few months, maybe a dragon the size of a cottage would only eat once or twice a year -- but would probably need 6 cows or so at a go. Or an elephant!

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[info]rom65536
2005-04-03 10:42 am UTC (link)
Flying animals need more food than walking animals.
If it's going to fly often, it will needs 6 cows quite a bit more than that.

If it's just laying in the mud, 6 cows a year and it'll be stuffed.

If the dragon's fire has some sort of biological reasoning, then it'll need INSANE amounts of food.

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(no subject) - [info]holyschist, 2005-04-03 04:27 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2005-04-04 10:15 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]holyschist, 2005-04-05 04:19 am UTC

[info]maureenlycaon
2005-04-03 04:28 am UTC (link)
Some snap comments of my own:

Horses are marching fuel problems, since they eat a lot, and to keep in top condition they can't graze all the time (unless they were originally wild horses, I suppose, and used to living on such fare).

And before any writer reads this and says "I'll just make 'em captured and broken wild horses, then!" (unlikely, I know) I'd like to point out the problems there. The original wild horse, the tarpan, was smaller than the domestic horse, and probably not as powerful or enduring either, even if it was hardier. The tarpan also had a significantly different temperament from domestic stock -- it had a wicked temper, and it tended to make up its own mind about whether or not to obey a command, much like a donkey or mule. See descriptions of the Mongolian wild horse's temperament for details: there's a reason it is never ridden in captivity. And formerly wild horses that have been captured will probably never trust humans quite as much as horses that have spent all their lives as domestics.

An interesting side note: tarpans were exterminated largely because they were a serious menace to travelers in wild areas of Europe. When a stallion saw domestic horses passing through his domain, he didn't take into account that they were pulling a carriage; he'd attack, aiming to kill any stallions or geldings and carry off any mares. Despite being smaller than domestic horses, they were fierce enough to injure or kill them. Yet I've never seen that happen in a fantasy novel.

But if the dragons are reptilian, though they might not need to eat often (just like giant snakes such as anacondas), they'll gorge themselves when they need to.

But dragons usually fly, and flying takes vast quantities of energy (and a fast metabolism). I'd lay odds that a dragon would be warm-blooded, like certain dinosaurs, just to meet the metabolic requirements of flight. That would mean it would need to eat a lot more, and more often, than a crocodile or a snake. I suppose there might be some way to get around this with some form of innate magic, but it would take a lot of skill and knowledge on the part of the writer for me to buy it.

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[info]minervasolo
2005-04-03 08:33 am UTC (link)
Another thought about wild horses: make sure you know where you're getting them from. I'm not an expert, but as far as I can tell wild horses tend to live on large plains. If there are a lot of woods, you're more likely to find wild ponies, which can be a bit hard to ride if your legs are trailing on the ground.

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(no subject) - [info]holyschist, 2005-04-03 04:29 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2005-04-04 10:18 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]maureenlycaon, 2005-04-04 11:18 pm UTC
Yup - [info]jaquiel, 2005-04-05 07:12 pm UTC
Re: Yup - [info]maureenlycaon, 2005-04-06 04:23 am UTC

[info]world_wanderer
2005-04-03 05:01 am UTC (link)
Pwned! So many good points, and so much to add.

1. You got it. During the civil War, alot of foraging was done, mostly because hardtack would generally break your teeth if you didn't soak it first, and if you had it, it might be moldy. There are some health issues here you didn't think of.

2. When you have hundreds of men, you're going to have to have fire. Almost impossible otherwise. Perhaps the night before the battle, to make it harder to predict where exactly you are, you could convince the men to have a cold supper, but a smith would need one, so you're not marching an army cold all the way.

3. This brings up another hygiene problem. I've read an account during the Civil War written by a cavalry officer. He said that they generally had problems in the field, and different problems in garrison. Garrison is no problem, as far as health is concerned. But in the feild, you had problems with horses going lame, getting sick, etc. He said they were lucky to have a quarter of the horses ready to go.

4. No problems. I've not done much sentry duty, so I can't say much anyway.

5. Again, nothing much to say.

6. Soldiers are generally required to take care of their own weapons, to some extent. On guns, there's what's called "armorer level" maintenance, and this requires someone with more advanced skills, like what a blacksmith would have. And I'd flog a soldier that didn't take care of his equipment and let it rust. Armor too, was generally expensive, and the common foot soldier would have little of it. They will carry spares though, and I believe that archers generally fletched their own arrows.

7. Don't forget you mid-level

8. Hygiene and health- When you get lots of people and animals together, you have problems. THey generate waste, most of which is the icky smelly kind. You have to dispose of it somehow. Perhaps the downtrodden hero is required to dig a latrine ditch, in which he hides to escape the bad guys? You'll have problems with disease too, and heaven forbid a horse spooks and runs through the camp smashing stuff up.

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[info]telophase
2005-04-03 09:14 am UTC (link)
...mostly because hardtack would generally break your teeth if you didn't soak it first, and if you had it, it might be moldy.

Several years ago, when I was doing an internship as a costumed interpreter at a museum at a fort in Wyoming, I read a book (I sat in the gift shop and read when there were no visitors) that mentioned soldiers carrying their hardtack inside their shirt all day so the sweat would soften it up enough to eat that evening. Don't remember the source or how trustworthy it was, but it certainly sounds icky yet plausible.

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(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2005-04-04 10:22 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]rachelmap, 2005-04-06 10:16 am UTC
Exceptionally excellent rant.
[info]saadiira
2005-04-03 05:46 am UTC (link)
Although aware of the points, I don't always enumerate them all, and probably should, as you are quite right. They make for good plot points.

-I can't recall which battle, but there was a real disaster on one because one army used mares, and the other, stallions. Thus, geldings became far more popular. Does anyone recall which event?

-I am book marking this one. :)

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Re: Exceptionally excellent rant.
[info]maureenlycaon
2005-04-03 05:55 pm UTC (link)
Spotted that in a Highlander episode summary some years ago. It was a battle between European Crusaders and Turkish Islamists in 1097, supposedly. The former preferred uncut stallions for ferocity, while the latter preferred mares for obedience. The result was a graphic demonstration of "make love, not war". :-)

However, I can't find any mention of it in accounts of the Crusade around 1097, so it's probably just an invention, like George Washington chopping down the apple tree.

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Re: Exceptionally excellent rant. - [info]kawakiisakazuki, 2005-04-03 09:13 pm UTC
Re: Exceptionally excellent rant. - [info]maureenlycaon, 2005-04-04 02:53 am UTC
Re: Exceptionally excellent rant. - [info]limyaael, 2005-04-04 10:23 pm UTC
Re: Exceptionally excellent rant. - [info]saadiira, 2005-04-05 10:38 am UTC
C.S. Forester had it right ~
[info]mikononyte
2005-04-03 08:33 am UTC (link)
I suppose this should wait until you do Navy, but it applies here as well.

"I shall need two hundred bullocks. Two hundred and fifty if they are thin and small. Five hundred pigs. One hundred quintals of salt. Forty tons of ship's bread, and if biscuit is unobtainable I shall need the equivalent amount of flour, with ovens and fuel provided to bake it. The juice of forth thousand lemons, oranges or limes - ... Ten tons of sugar. Five tons of tobacco. A ton of coffee. ... Twenty tons of potatoes will suffice."

And that was one heck of a grocery list, from Hornblower: "Beat to Quarters". When I read your comments I thought of this paragraph (especially as I am reading the book) and remember smiling, not only at the description of so much victuals for his ship, but the reactions to the landlubbers who had to supply it.

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Re: C.S. Forester had it right ~
[info]wanderingbhikkh
2005-04-03 08:48 am UTC (link)
Speaking as a former cafeteria cook: Rice is your god. It takes twenty pounds of flour to feed a hundred, but only six pounds of rice.

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Re: C.S. Forester had it right ~ - [info]sparrow_wings, 2005-04-04 04:12 am UTC
Re: C.S. Forester had it right ~ - [info]daennea, 2005-04-04 09:51 pm UTC
Re: C.S. Forester had it right ~ - [info]serpentrose, 2008-01-04 02:06 am UTC
Re: C.S. Forester had it right ~ - [info]limyaael, 2005-04-04 10:24 pm UTC

[info]eleyan
2005-04-03 08:41 am UTC (link)
a good book to read for a lot of the realities of middle age warfare, with gunpowder, is ASH by Mary Gentle. Nothing spared.

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[info]limyaael
2005-04-04 10:27 pm UTC (link)
I've heard quibbles about that (mostly, people apaprently find the academic framing device a pain in the ass), but also good things. Thank you for the recommendation.

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[info]lakrids404
2005-04-03 11:12 am UTC (link)
Drop by from yhlee.
I don't know if you have read "Dragon" by Steven Brust, butI think that it fulfils yours criteria’s on all points.

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[info]limyaael
2005-04-04 10:28 pm UTC (link)
Brust is one of my favorite authors, and Dragon one of my favorite books by him. It helps that his hero's an assassin; he's already not thinking in the typical "hero" mode about battle and what he can do to help.

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[info]packbat
2005-04-03 03:59 pm UTC (link)
Thank you. This is brilliant.

Relating to 1,2,3: There's an old cliche I remember hearing about warfare, "Amateurs study tactics, professionals study logistics." Seems it applies to writers as well.

As for 4: Oh yeah. That darn "stupid villain" syndrome, rearing yet another head.

And the "take the hero to meet the general" scene in 7 is just an attempt to make the protagonist cooler, I bet. So silly...

By the way, may I friend you? I've been reading your rants, and they're brilliant.

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[info]limyaael
2005-04-04 10:29 pm UTC (link)
Sure, you can friend me. Glad you like the rants.

And the "take the hero to meet the general" scene in 7 is just an attempt to make the protagonist cooler, I bet. So silly...

The world (or at least the fantasy genre) would be a much happier place if writers remembered that, along with being cool, things also have to make sense.

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[info]wireandroses
2005-04-03 05:55 pm UTC (link)
did you see the show animal planet had on dragons? they did this whole thing imagining that dragons were real, and how they evolved, and how they worked, and it was awesome. it would probably be useful to a lot of your readers.

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[info]limyaael
2005-04-04 10:30 pm UTC (link)
I didn't see it. I'd probably have to watch it before I could recommend it to anyone.

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[info]avrelia
2005-04-03 07:12 pm UTC (link)
Great rant! I’d love to see more attention to points 1-3 in the fiction. The wars and campaigns were won or lost due to lack of food, cutting off the supply chains, etc.

The first example that comes to my mind is Napoleon’s Russian Campaign 1812, which turned into a complete disaster (for the previously invincible French Army) not because of fierce battles – the battles were there, of course - but because the French Army was left without any food and supplies in the middle of the Russia and any ways to forage for them due to the strategy of the Russian side.

Another thing that is good to remember – what the marching army is going to do with its wounded and sick?

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[info]yhlee
2005-04-04 10:22 pm UTC (link)
Yeah, field medicine can be hair-raising, especially if you have a society with sucky medical paradigms. Guido Majno's The Healing Hand--medical history--isn't specifically battle-wound focused, but that's where a lot of the archaeological data comes from. You start wondering how the human species survived, because people would undergo sometimes horrific "treatments" and still survive. (And of course some treatments were dead-on.)

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(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2005-04-04 10:32 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]damien_winter, 2005-04-04 11:44 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]l_clausewitz, 2005-04-05 03:47 pm UTC
Burning dung for fuel
[info]sphingx
2005-04-03 07:52 pm UTC (link)
One thing about burning dung/coke for fuel though... depending on what animal it comes from, the fumes from the fire may range from 'smelly' to 'overwhelmingly powerful vomit-inducing stink bomb'. (Trust me on this one *shudder*)

Though if you used that strategically (sabotaging the enemies campfire with the latter for a distraction, for instance) that would make for a rather... unique bit of writing ;)

Oh, and if your unfortunate heroes do resort to burning dung, it might be good to make a point of them not sitting around the 'fire' without gagging.

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Re: Burning dung for fuel
[info]limyaael
2005-04-04 10:33 pm UTC (link)
Good point. The only fantasy situations that use dung tend to have the heroes grimacing in disgust at the sheer smell of it before they put it in the fire; they say nothing about the smoke.

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Re: Burning dung for fuel - [info]karenrei, 2006-02-23 11:57 pm UTC

[info]jadeanite
2005-04-03 09:53 pm UTC (link)
On the archers, I so agree. *sighs* I was thinking this over as I was out shooting, and during the course of it I cut my finger open because I wasn't paying attention, lost one arrow, bent the end of another, twaped my arm with the string, have sore fingers because the bow's stronger than I'm used to, have a sore arm from the same, and spent about fifteen minutes looking for the lost arrow before giving up on it... (Needless to say, I'm not that wonderful of an archer yet) Alot of those problems archers wouldn't have... but they would have some of them. And never have I read a story where there's any trouble with the arrows clanking against each other. When the quivers are full I can see that, but when a writer is talking about someone moveing silently about and being careful because there's only five or whatnot arrows left in the quiver... I want to know what happened to negate the wooden shafts clanking against each other as they move... Granted I hang my quiver from my belt so the arrows move more with each step, but on the occasions I decide to put my hair up and use the strap they still clank. *shrugs* I've come to the conclusion that most writers make their arrows reproduce and negate noise, and their "delicate heroines" freakishly strong (I'm built like those so called delicate people, and I want to know how in the world they can shoot bows I can't even think of pulling back!) and then they decline to inform of us it.

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[info]world_wanderer
2005-04-04 02:10 am UTC (link)
I know in Japan the quivers held each individual arrow seperately. I don't know that the trend would hold up with a Western style in the story though.

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(no subject) - [info]damien_winter, 2005-04-04 11:47 pm UTC

[info]snapes_angel
2005-04-03 11:44 pm UTC (link)
Marking this: I think I need te reminder, considering what I am currently writing (thanks).

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[info]sparrow_wings
2005-04-04 04:13 am UTC (link)
Thank you so much. I had some idea about the food, but I'd never thought much about the rest of it.

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Hmm. Funny rant.
[info]l_clausewitz
2005-04-04 03:24 pm UTC (link)
Incidentally, I've written some material for a short class on historical warfare and army-building that I've planned to hold on May or June. E-mail me or post a comment to this if you would like to see it.

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Re: Hmm. Funny rant.
[info]l_clausewitz
2005-04-05 03:38 pm UTC (link)
Hey! How come I haven't noticed the date? I finished the 25,000-word (uh) essay just the day before you posted this rant!

BTW, mind if I friend you?

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[info]jenlittlebottom
2005-04-04 05:21 pm UTC (link)
*grin* What if the scout is a turncoat? *random* I think there was actually something like this in Roman history; the general had roped in locals to do the scouting, because they knew the land and the terrain better and could move faster, but since they weren't happy with a huge roman army in the middle of their home they sided with the other guy, and gave him the wrong information.

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[info]angelhedgie
2005-04-04 05:53 pm UTC (link)
Okay, but do remember that the Romans had some charming ideas about retribution - the word "decimate" comes from a rather fun one where the Romans would line up the rebellious populace, and kill every tenth man.

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(no subject) - [info]jenlittlebottom, 2005-04-04 06:50 pm UTC

[info]nanale
2005-04-05 12:04 am UTC (link)
Hm,I'm reading your rants for some month now and I think, I have some information for the supply problems. (Always great rants!)
Most armies weren't only men, but there were also women and the occasional children. The women were mostly the girlfriends or wives of the soldier and so helped to cook and to complete the food. Not to mention, that they also sewed, patched, nursed and organized food or money. It wasn't before the 19th century, that an european army could function without the support of women.
For the accommodations: soldiers with or without families were mostly quartered on town houses. Each house had to host a family or some soldiers, gave them beds, food and wood to heat. There were always major problems, because the family structure with a housefather and a housemother was crossed by an independent family, that hadn't to follow their instructions, but had postulated supply.

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Before the 19th century?
[info]l_clausewitz
2005-04-05 10:53 am UTC (link)
You must be kidding! Go to Africa or Indochina and see the actual composition of the "armies" they have there. If you were born in the 16th century you wouldn't recognize any difference except for the weapons.

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Re: Before the 19th century? - [info]nanale, 2005-04-09 11:13 am UTC

[info]luhtarian
2005-04-05 12:39 am UTC (link)
I've just discovered this journal (through [info]tainted4life, bless her. The essays have been incredibly useful. Mind if I friend you?

(...well, all right, I already did.)

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[info]limyaael
2005-04-05 01:45 am UTC (link)
That's all right. Glad you're enjoying them. *friends back*

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[info]calanthe_b
2005-04-12 12:16 am UTC (link)
Archers will use up a lot of arrows, often without hitting anything. Have them scour battlefields afterward for the leftover ones. Or show bowyers and fletchers traveling with the army. Do some research on bows, too, to make sure that your "fragile and delicate" archer heroine can actually draw the bow she's using. It takes enormous strength in the upper arms to pull the weight of the bigger ones.

Sorry for coming to this late, but...also remember that archers, in medieval warfare, didn't just shoot arrows. Once the time for shooting was over (ie at about the point where they risked killing the men-at-arms of their own army), they piled into the fight with knives, daggers, hammers, basically anything they could get their hands on. And they were commoners. They fought dirty, and they weren't concerned with keeping the opposition's noblemen alive for ransom.

Also, when you're dealing with medieval archers, you need to decide whether you're in the period of iron or steel armour. If you're in a late-medieval period when the armour is made of steel, your average longbow arrow tippied with iron (they're not generally reusable, which means that making them out of steel is prohibitively expensive) is not going to have an awful lot of effect unless it a) uses momentum to topple someone, or b) hits a horse or an unarmoured fighter.

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Swamps and trees
[info]sligking
2005-10-06 12:32 am UTC (link)
Just a wee correction on number 2. You say if the swamps have trees. By the true ecological definition, all swamps have trees, it's what makes them swamps. If they don't have trees they're bogs (a floating mat of moss over water), marshes (wet plains), or wet prairies (massively unpleasant places that I hate, hate, HATE!!!)

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Pigeons, Peasants
[info]karenrei
2006-02-24 12:03 am UTC (link)
1) Pigeons. One thing you should mention about pigeons is that a pigeon won't likely home in on the army. Pigeons home in on the area where their roost is. If their roost moves, how will they find it? There's still some debate over how pigeons find their way home on the small scale (they use magnetism for the large scale). It used to be thought that they would memorize the geography of the immediate area, but now there's some evidence to suggest that it is smells instead or a combination of both.

2) Peasants. Peasants were pretty clever at arming themselves when they needed to. The most common thing was to see farming implements get converted into weapons. A scythe on a stick was decent and could dismount cavalry, although the lack of a forward point made it less effective than it could be otherwise. Axes made impromptu halberds. They could make bows and arrows without needing much if any metal. Etc.

Sure, given no time, the peasants wouldn't have weapons -- but given time, they'll arm themselves if they need to.

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