Limyaael ([info]limyaael) wrote,
@ 2005-06-04 20:27:00
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Current mood: energetic
Entry tags:fantasy rants: spring 2005, subgenre rants

Brutal fantasy rant
Ah, here we are.

Just as with the rant on transformative fantasy, I’m essentially defining a subgenre here. As with transformative fantasy, it’s a subgenre I like, and one that a lot of the fantasy books I love fall into. This means that I burble.

Like, a lot. As in, this isn’t as much of a rant as a long, long stream of burbling.



What does brutal mean in this context? Any and all meanings of the word that you can think of, of course.

1) All the buried aspects of setting, plot, characterization, and theme act on the storyline. Fantasy authors sometimes fumble a plot, or fudge it. The first occurs when the storyline gets bogged down in its own lack of action. The author might have a grand scene to aim for, but it lies on the other side of two hundred necessary-yet-boring pages. The second occurs when the author knows that, really, she should take the time to deal with one aspect of the plot, but she gives in to temptation to skip it, because of wanting to get to that grand scene.

A fully committed brutal fantasy is never going to have a problem with the first one. The moment the storyline gets boring, the author need only reach out and touch the razor-lined traps lying in the ground, the air, the minor characters, the secondary characters, the noble lords, the old grudges that people bear, the technology, the seasons, the protagonists’ wounds, the magic, the ancient history, the near history, the death of someone at the beginning of the story, the countries across the sea, the class system, the currency, the houses…you get the idea. A large part of writing brutal fantasy is seeing the deadly potential that lies in every single tiny part of the fantasy world. Once you get used to that, you will have no shortage of nastiness that, gasp shock and awe, makes sense, because you put it there. (And then you get to have the fun of watching them build on each other. See point 3).

It also means no fudging, or as little as possible. Your characters are on the move in early spring, trying to cross a river. You’ve earlier mentioned that the river flows from mountains, and that the winter was unusually heavy. You needed those for a subplot about trade on the river, and because you used the winter to give your characters a hard time already. You do not get to pretend that the river is a little wussy river now. It’ll be high and surging with snowmelt. Once you’ve introduced problems into a brutal fantasy, abide by them, and by all their consequences.

Yes, even in those moments that hurt most. Perhaps most especially in the moments that hurt most.

2) There is no flinching at the last moment. I dislike “Gotcha!” moments, those where the author has gone to a great deal of trouble to build up worry or tension or suspense in the reader….

And then dissipates it in a puff of smoke. It isn’t a grand and daring rescue or escape; it isn’t the hero using cleverness to defeat the villain; it isn’t the protagonist having a different plan than everyone thought he did. It’s a silly rescue or escape; it’s the villain crumpling before the hero without a fight; it’s the plan turning out to hang on a coincidence or deus ex machina.

With brutal fantasy, the permission to flinch goes away. That means that you’re “condemned” (I find my greatest freedom in writing this way) to either thinking up a strong way to end the tension, or letting it play out. If you can’t think of a sensible way that your hero could escape being maimed—if the only escape you can think of would depend, say, on the villain suddenly acting massively stupid and out of character—then the hero gets maimed.

All the consequences must play out. Any authorial intervention that occurs must be so subtle and careful and cleverly played that no one will take it for authorial intervention. No depending on genre conventions; in fact, the best brutal fantasies are the ones that turn viciously on genre conventions, such as slaughtering the protagonists just when you think they’re safe, they must be safe, because they’re the protagonists. (George R. R. Martin plays with this one a lot).

This is, obviously, the playground of a lot of tragedy, pain (see point 5), and authorial commitment to following through on what’s promised. So be it. You promised high tension, you deliver a fitting conclusion to the tension.

3) Consequences expand as a storm. Brutal fantasies often don’t have a major plot with little subplots rotating them. There’s not one person that’s clearly more important than everyone else and untouchable. There’s not one area from which all the action spreads out in concentric rings, with no rings coming back to touch that area. There’s not a neat line of consequences: “If A, then B, then C, then D…” It’s more like, “If pre-existing A, then B as a result of A and pre-existing C, and D and E and F and G as a result of B, and H and I as a result of D and E and F, and A altering as a result of all of them…” Their plots move in multiple directions and get more complex and painful as they run. There is no top-down solution, no rescue from an ancient king coming back to life or aliens from space or armies from across the sea. The solutions have to come from the characters within the situation, and are just as likely to make things worse. In fact, they should.

A real-world analogue might be the French Revolution. It didn’t just result from the weakness of the monarchy. It also resulted from the class system, intense poverty, starvation, the Enlightenment, the American Revolution, France’s relations with the countries around her, and so on and so on and so on. And it didn’t bloom into a quiet and peaceful paradise. Blood ran, and in more places than France; the Haitian Revolution played off it, and the Napoleonic Wars, and more wars and revolutions after that.

There are certainly other examples. I’m using this one because it happens to be pretty well-known, and I’m sure there are factors that I’ve missed that people reading this will think of.

A fantasy world, the creation of one author, is by necessity less complex than the real world. But a brutal fantasy author should make it as complex as possible, take care of as many factors as possible, know how the various institutions and groups will react on and with each other and when, according to their own internal clocks and logic, (not just when it’s most convenient for the plot), and know in what directions the storm will start expanding when it rises. And then the author goes through with it, all of it.

4) There is no shortage of passion—not from the author, not from the characters on any side. I’ve sleepwalked through some fantasies because the author didn’t seem to care, and neither did the characters on one or more sides. The villains acted stupidly, the plot holes gaped, the author was open about interfering to preserve a character’s life or reverse a rule that she had earlier stated was absolute, the heroes achieved reconciliations and love affairs and the throne and psychological healing with no effort at all, and every single moment that should have been grand and dramatic came off as clichéd.

Brutal fantasies must be alive, every inch and every part of them. The minor characters have to have lives and desires and goals and hatred and loves. (See point 6). The heroes and villains—and I think most brutal fantasies are not actually going to have those, so much as people who happen to possess differing goals—have to move and act with verve and energy and according to their own internal clocks and logic. Groups are not going to obey convenient stereotypes. People who have a reason to go after a goal with their full hearts are not going to falter because the author needs them to. Since brutal fantasies are going to be complex and full of consequences anyway, you’re not going to have a shortage of occurrences for people to get worked up about.

This is perhaps the place where brutal fantasy differs the most from other subgenres. The reluctant heroes or rulers (I am so tired of reluctant heroes and rulers), the characters who exist only as shadows to the protagonist, the stock types, have no place here. They’re fodder, and no more. Brutal fantasies will tear them apart or hammer them into people who develop the cleverness and the will and the goals and the color to survive. That’s because of the consequences, again. If somebody does something that would cause him to get hurt or die because of what’s happening around him and what’s happened previously, then he gets hurt or dies; there’s no special dispensation.

5) One of the many themes is pain. Or, in other words, “Goddamn, is this world fucked-up.”

This doesn’t mean that other fantasies don’t handle pain or suffering. Sometimes that’s a major theme of the book, in fact. But they don’t often handle fucked-upness. There’s often an underlying moral clarity to the fantasy world (especially in high fantasy, which I think is one of the reasons I’ve become allergic to that subgenre). There’s also the comforting sense that, yes, at the end of the day, the villains will be punished and the heroes will triumph and heal, because that is the way things are, because they deserve to. The author may make the heroes really struggle before they get to the triumph, but there’s not often real doubt that the triumph is coming.

Brutal fantasy doesn’t make that promise. Maybe they will survive. Maybe they won’t. Maybe the villains will die, maybe they’ll even die the way you want them to, and maybe they won’t even die.

Brutal fantasy’s universe isn’t really immoral. It’s amoral. And it deals with the many, many ways that humans, or human-like creatures, have managed to fuck things up.

That’s right. People fuck it up, not ancient evils or gods who are raining down destruction on blameless kingdoms or some natural disaster. They can add to the damage, but they can’t be the sole cause of it. If we’re playing the blame game, which is, unfortunately, the set of terms that a lot of fantasy gets cast in—authors become obsessed with whose fault something is—then everybody’s to blame.

And now show how they go about fixing it. I don’t think brutal fantasies are hostile to hope. I think that the hope, like the fucked-upness, has to come from inside the universe, not outside. So I do think that brutal fantasies are hostile to universal panaceas, such as the fulfillment of a prophecy is often presented as.

6) Black, white, and gray are too limited a palette. Sure, there will be characters who are shining and characters who are dark and characters who are ethically mixed in every author’s eyes, and even more in the readers’. But where are blue and purple and orange and yellow and red and green? Where’re indigo and bronze and auburn?

Here the author holds herself back from intervening or making judgments again, and makes people the product of their environments and their prior characterization. The protagonist might do something that the reader will perceive as wrong. But no angelic chorus comes intruding to confirm her impression, and another reader can argue with her, and the character’s actions will play out as they should play out, as what is in the story makes them play out, rather than the author steering them in a direction that confirms some outside moral judgment. Brutal fantasy characters will be citizens of their own world, not transplanted citizens of the twenty-first century. They will have whole lives, not simply punishments and rewards.

Brutal fantasy depends heavily on fully-realized characters, you’ll notice. Without them, it’s not going to belong to this subgenre.

7) The author is as skilled at describing ugliness and chaos as at describing beauty and grandeur. This is a neglected skill, I find. Many fantasy authors break their teeth first on descriptions of palaces and shining white horses and sweeping green meadows, and perhaps that accounts for some of it. While they know five synonyms for “blue” and how to describe the hero’s coronation from every angle, descriptions of war devolve into the usual “staring eyes” and “blood.”

This isn’t good, especially if part of your point is to depict the harshness of war and how bad it is. Not a lot of fantasies actually succeed at this, partially because the authors show their characters charging headlong into war anyway, but also because the author is missing half her descriptive chops.

This is one area where I think Tolkien does shine. Mordor is a nasty, nasty place. You would not want to live there. You don’t even want to visit it. Fluffy purple description would be inappropriate here, and so the passages have teeth instead.

Practice with ugliness, with grief, with pain in prose. It’ll help with the characters’ emotions as well as landscape descriptions.



Several of the brutal fantasies I like—especially Martin’s A Song of Ice and Fire series—get slapped with the labels “depressive” and “horrible.” But that’s the point of not flinching, of stirring up the shitstorm and then facing it, of using dilemmas instead of imagining a way out of them. There’s plenty of comfort-oriented and happiness-oriented fantasy out there. I think this subgenre deserves a place, too.

Other brutal fantasies:

Paul Kearney’s Monarchies of God series
Carol Berg’s Rai-kirah books, especially the second one (Revelation)
Sarah Micklem, Firethorn
Glen Cook’s Black Company series, especially She Is The Darkness




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[info]amurderofcrows
2005-06-05 12:35 am UTC (link)
I suggest, also, China Mieville's works -- which should be considered brutal fantasy -- Perdido Street Station, The Scar, and Iron Council.

Those are some fucking great books, but the end of the first nearly made me cry and the second, which is ten times better written then the still-good first, made me go, "WHAT?!" at the end, for a variety of reasons... strangely, it was slightly more hopeful in the end.

I'm still reading Iron Council, but I've been warned that if I was upset at the end of Perdido Street Station, then Iron Council will have me slitting my wrists. It's apparently got a very sad, grim, oh fuck ending.

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[info]alex_von_cercek
2005-06-05 07:42 am UTC (link)
Oh, Iron Council is indeed everything you've been told it is. China Mieville<3

It's actually a hopeful ending, in a way, but it isn't clear if the hopefulness is just wishfulthinking on the part of the reader. If fact, I'd say the hints that you are just WISHING the train will move again far outnumber any argument that it will.

Oh, China, you little post-industrial Martin.

What's funny is that Brutal Fantasy, when done right, can actually be far scarier than any story actually intended to be scary, such as a horror novel, because it isn't trying to scare you, but you realize the danger the protagonist is in all the time, and you also realize the Protective Arm of Benevolent Writer is no longer there to shield him from his...no, not stupidity. Just mistakes. Honest ones anyone could have made. Oops, you're dead.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]amurderofcrows, 2005-06-05 07:48 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]alex_von_cercek, 2005-06-05 07:50 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]amurderofcrows, 2005-06-05 07:56 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]alex_von_cercek, 2005-06-05 08:00 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]londonkds, 2005-06-05 08:12 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]amurderofcrows, 2005-06-05 08:14 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2005-06-05 07:53 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]amurderofcrows, 2005-06-05 08:14 pm UTC

[info]illian
2005-06-05 01:06 am UTC (link)
. . . no rescue from an ancient king coming back to life . . .

It'd be amusing if one did and then immediately set about enforcing all his old prejudices. How, exactly, are you going to get rid of your own honored ancestor? Who happens to be trying to gleefully slaughter every *insert nationality or race here* that he sees?

There’s often an underlying moral clarity to the fantasy world . . .

My mind keeps pouncing on these things tonight. Jacqueline Carey tried an inversion of this in her Banewreaker book. She almost pulled it off. The setup was good and most of the characters felt right but, unfortunately, not all of them did and it came across a little flat and staged. =\ Still, it'd be fascinating to read a high fantasy world whose moral clarity makes you go "Goddamn, is this world fucked-up.”

While they know five synonyms for “blue” . . .

Intestinal! Bilious green! =D I'm not touching all the blood color descriptions.

Paul Kearney’s Monarchies of God series

That one was really rough for me. While well written, I felt like I'd been hit with a piledriver of bad events. Part of it was I'm rather sick of the three way split between "Magic = Snobbish/Exclusive/BAD" (Monarchies and Buff), "Magic has consequences but it is all in how you use" (Lackey), and the "Magic as convenient prop device" (Almost any average fantasy book). I'll be revisiting them to see if I like them better.

Carol Berg’s Rai-kirah books, especially the second one (Revelation)

Oh hell yes.

Sarah Micklem, Firethorn

Hrm, rings a bell but I can't place it.

Glen Cook’s Black Company series, especially She Is The Darkness

Excellent.

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[info]marumae
2005-06-05 03:30 pm UTC (link)
It'd be amusing if one did and then immediately set about enforcing all his old prejudices. How, exactly, are you going to get rid of your own honored ancestor? Who happens to be trying to gleefully slaughter every *insert nationality or race here* that he sees?

OH! Now that is a novel I would love to read, everyone seems to think the world will be saved when such and such ancient ancestor king comes back to save everyone and sure enough he defeats the "villain" but at the end of the day it turns out he's more of a threat then the "villain" ever was. So what was once your savior and still is, is now simultaneously your greatest threat.

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(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2005-06-05 07:57 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]illian, 2005-06-05 08:58 pm UTC

[info]youraugustine
2005-06-05 01:10 am UTC (link)
One thing to remember, though, is that finding the right words for the brutal is JUST as hard as, if not harder than, finding the right words for the beauty.

Too many would-be-brutal fantasies (mostly amateur, but even a few professional ones) turn me off because I feel like I'm suddenly reading about body-bits and otherwise gore, completely removed from any kind of affect. Gore != Affecting. I am the daughter of a doctor, I can look at mangled cadavers without being particularly affected. Find the RIGHT language, don't rely on shock-value of things like "blood!" and "tearing the meat off bones" and so forth.

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[info]limyaael
2005-06-05 07:59 pm UTC (link)
That's why I singled out Tolkien's descriptions of Mordor instead of battle. Horror may have to use gore. Brutal fantasy doesn't have to. A lot of the ones I like depend on consequences that are more horrific than just wounds (like gangrene), on death scenes that happen swiftly and with no warning rather than lingering on while the protagonist gargles with his own blood, on vicious revelations that the protagonist has to live with rather than dying to escape. The themes concentrate less on death than on pain, I think.

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(no subject) - [info]megpie71, 2005-07-06 10:15 am UTC

[info]zionga
2005-06-05 01:18 am UTC (link)
I love a good brutal fantasy. Glen Cook rocks my socks.

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[info]blunder_buss
2005-06-05 11:33 am UTC (link)
Dude, you're stalking me, aren't you? :O

It's like every community and such I go to, you end up there! :D

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(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2005-06-05 08:01 pm UTC

[info]warui_chibi
2005-06-05 01:22 am UTC (link)
YES. Just yes, yes, yes.

Especially No. 5. Authors are too centered on making sure no one ever makes a mistake except the antagonist. Once and a while, it's nice to see the good guy make a huge mistake that can cost them the mission--or their lives. Too often, however, when such an event occurs, it's the idiotic comic relief character who's always making the mistake. And the reader is invited to laugh and go, "Oh, that Gimpel, he's always making messes!" UGH! And meanwhile, those Mary Sues just trot around, perfect as the sunrise, never doing anything wrong.

Sorry. Just, this rant is perfect in every way.

Thanks for the recs, too, I'll be sure to check them out.

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[info]limyaael
2005-06-05 08:02 pm UTC (link)
*grin* Exactly. The mistakes don't need to be crippling or life-threatening, but they do need to be mistakes, and treated as such. I have seen some fantasy protagonists make horrible mistakes, but the author often smoothes it over by having it be secretly the right thing to do. "Everything works out in the end," which I find boring. There should be at least some genuine missteps, even if they're small.

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[info]erythros
2005-06-05 02:03 am UTC (link)
I really like this rant, particularly because it's the kind of fantasy I like to read. I think my first exposure to brutal fantasy, in which people faced consequences, was actually Robin McKinley's The Hero and the Crown. Sure, Aerin survived and was a badass, but bad things happened to her and to the people around her. There was, however, that whole North = bad (except when it's Aerin's mother) thing.

... In fact, this rant genuinely hits all the things I most like to read: historical fiction, nonfiction history, horror, and brutal fantasy. Where things just HAPPEN, and the causal universe rules. (You know. realistic fiction.)

Thank you. This is my favorite rant for quite some time (especially since I've seen you pay attention to all of these rules).

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[info]londonkds
2005-06-05 08:13 am UTC (link)
Icon is appropriate too ;-)

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(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2005-06-05 08:04 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]dwg, 2005-06-06 01:31 am UTC

[info]deathglare
2005-06-05 02:11 am UTC (link)
This post is awesome enough to cause me to headbang, well I had System of a Down in the player so it helps.

This is why I like cyberpunk as well as the dark and brutal fantasies. Often enough humanity is the cause of their own problems and it can't collectively fix their problems up long enough to fix shit.

Another one to add to list of things to read would be Michael Moorcock's Eternal Champion series and related books. Main characters and even the heroes dying in many of the tales, the human race getting wiped out in one tale because as a whole they couldn't fix their problems. Can't forget about Elric and the soul sucking blade of his that helps his sick body to survive and unable to get rid of the blade as it kills those that he cares about.

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[info]maureenlycaon
2005-06-05 04:39 am UTC (link)
I'd meant to mention Elric of Melnibone myself, but you beat me to it. Thirty-five years on, the flaws of Moorcock's work are obvious, but we should never forget that he almost single-handedly founded "dark fantasy" as a genre.

And there's genuine gold there amid the angst, or else Elric wouldn't still be such a towering figure.

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(no subject) - [info]deathglare, 2005-06-05 06:16 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]maureenlycaon, 2005-06-05 10:24 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]deathglare, 2005-06-05 05:11 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2005-06-05 08:05 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]deathglare, 2005-06-05 09:26 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]sue_hell, 2005-12-04 03:30 pm UTC

[info]storm_seeker
2005-06-05 03:12 am UTC (link)
I can't speak for anyone else, but when I first picked up Martin's "A Game of Thrones", I put it down halfway through. It was...grim, in a manner of speaking. Far more realistic and gritty than any 'fantasy' book I had ever read before.

Of course, I was used to the comfort-orientated fantasy and such, as you called it. Martin's style is IMO quite unique, at least it's unlike anything I've come across yet from an author.

And to be honest, when I pick up a fantasy book, a lot of the time I do so to lose myself in the world and the adventure. I want something light-hearted but with a certain depth. Something I can read through in an evening or two, get carried away with and not come out emotionally rent at the end. I don't want gritty realism.

This may be why (forgive me for mentioning his name but) Goodkind and companions, are popular, relatively speaking. They're 'light entertainment', but have a depth to them of some degree, regardless.

But when I DO want gritty and grim, when I do want a change of perspective and style, that book and his 'Ice and Fire' series, stand out on their own, and are the ones I will pick up and enjoy for their originality.

And if I'm seeking emotional upheaval, well...there's Kay for that :} I really need to get a hold of a copy of Tigana.

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[info]storm_seeker
2005-06-05 03:21 am UTC (link)
As far as point #2 goes...more authors need to be reminded of the phrase, 'Murder your darlings', I think. If your protagonist or main character or whomever, is in a situation where their reaction would be one that would likely get them killed (but it would be their reaction, it would fit their personality and who you've built them up to be)...then for goodness sakes, let them kill themselves.

Don't have the Wise Old Mentor come along and save them at the last minute. Don't have coincidences which arise and pull them away from the trouble and into safety.

And for godsakes, don't have them die...and then by some weird fluke, be reborn or resurrected or whatever. Not if that violates your world's rules or laws of reality, or hasn't been in the story before.

If they're hellbent on stupidity that might wind up with them killed, maimed or emotionally broken from there on in, then kill, maim or emotionally break them. At least it's being true to their character, and true to the story as well.

Protagonists are people too. And people make mistakes, more often than they fix them. Let them screw up. Keep some truth in your fiction.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2005-06-05 08:07 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]githzerai, 2005-06-07 06:42 am UTC

[info]kafziel
2005-06-05 03:43 am UTC (link)
Speaking of Glen Cook ... Garrett. Whatcha think?

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[info]limyaael
2005-06-05 08:08 pm UTC (link)
I enjoy them, but that's because I keep them in mind as Chandler homages, and a large part of the nastiness in them as inherent in that subgenre. Otherwise, the misogyny and homophobia would turn me off.

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(no subject) - [info]farmercuerden, 2005-06-12 12:43 pm UTC

[info]xscarletscythex
2005-06-05 05:00 am UTC (link)
Bwa. I absolutely love brutal fantasies. <3 It's in these that the darkest characters lay, where the best descriptions of gore and violence lie.


While they know five synonyms for “blue” and how to describe the hero’s coronation from every angle, descriptions of war devolve into the usual “staring eyes” and “blood.”

Bah, I say! Where are the piercing glares, the garnet liquor, the liquid roses and any other overused metaphor? ;_; some of those are the best things:

Such a rich garnet liquid, to be spilled at desire . . . to fill up puddles and rivers if preferred . . . am I making you ill, Joshua? We’ll continue, then. What if I was to tell you that death doesn’t even faze me? What if I was to tell you that killing someone was something to be done with satisfaction? To hear the screams of your victim, begging you not to kill them? To run the knife across their throat, to press your fingers to the cut and have them be submerged in a wonderful pool of blood? And then, to drink that blood, that rich, coppery liquor, tasting the life in each drop?


...yush. Definitely~ some of the most fun things to write.

[she who is normally [info]caidentity]

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[info]limyaael
2005-06-05 08:09 pm UTC (link)
I generally don't like extensive descriptions of gore, simply because they've all been done before. When the author drops back to laconic, the way Glen Cook does, or can center it utterly in the character, as Micklem does, then it works better.

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[info]prismhottie
2005-06-05 05:38 am UTC (link)
I agree with all 7 of your points. Mostly 5, 6, and 7 the mostest!

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[info]limyaael
2005-06-05 08:09 pm UTC (link)
Thank you.

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[info]evilstorm
2005-06-05 05:53 am UTC (link)
No. 2 had me going "Oh augh no nono NO AGGGGH there it goes" all the way through the Song of Ice and Fire series. Then I finished and said, damn, that was BRILLIANT. So worded, very much.

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[info]limyaael
2005-06-05 08:10 pm UTC (link)
Thanks. I love that series to pieces because it hits so many of my buttons, and it's one of the few fantasies that can handle such complex themes without letting the complexity run away with the plot.

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THANK YOU!
[info]saadiira
2005-06-05 07:34 am UTC (link)
A most excellent rant. These are the sort of fantasies I most love to read, and most fervently wish to write.

My number one goal when writing, quite often, is actually to see just how cruel I can possibly be to the characters I like the most.

Sometimes, it's hard. But when I manage, it's so well worth it. I loathe deus ex machina, and I'm tired of seeing it. I loathe excuses for stupidity in escapes and plots. Give me clever, or don't write it. Hell, give me consequences if you can't be clever...

I am bookmarking this entry.

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Re: THANK YOU!
[info]limyaael
2005-06-05 08:11 pm UTC (link)
Thanks. I've written some fantasies I suspect probably belong here, though I've called them dark fantasies (and the line would be very, very fine in some cases). I think one of the most valuable lessons for authors to keep in mind is that they don't really need extensive gore, or creatures like vampires and werewolves, to make things "dark." Human inventions and emotions are quite enough to do that, and often more effective.

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[info]alex_von_cercek
2005-06-05 07:48 am UTC (link)
You have wrought beauty with this rant. This is the one I've been waiting for.

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[info]wanderingbhikkh
2005-06-05 08:12 am UTC (link)
I'm trying to live up to this one. I'm really trying. I think I have a part of it though. Being on the priestess team that gets to BURN ALL THE BODIES AGAINST ALL DECENCY BUT IN A COST-EFFECTIVE WAY managed to screw up my main character. And the descriptions were pretty good.

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[info]otakukeith
2005-06-05 10:07 am UTC (link)
The author might have a grand scene to aim for, but it lies on the other side of two hundred necessary-yet-boring pages.

Or, in some cases, two thousand unnecessary-and-boring pages. Damn you, Robert Jordan!

No depending on genre conventions; in fact, the best brutal fantasies are the ones that turn viciously on genre conventions, such as slaughtering the protagonists just when you think they’re safe, they must be safe, because they’re the protagonists. (George R. R. Martin plays with this one a lot).

Oh yes he does precious, indeed he does. :D As I always say: "Every time you ask when A Feast For Crows is coming out, George RR Martin kills a main character. Please, think of the characters."

A fantasy world, the creation of one author, is by necessity less complex than the real world. But a brutal fantasy author should make it as complex as possible, take care of as many factors as possible, know how the various institutions and groups will react on and with each other and when, according to their own internal clocks and logic, (not just when it’s most convenient for the plot), and know in what directions the storm will start expanding when it rises. And then the author goes through with it, all of it.

It seems to me that this isn't so much 'brutal' as well-thought-out and realistic. You could, conceivably, write a story where there were lots of influencing factors like this, multiple protagonists etc., but the plot didn't really result in multiple horrible things happening to everyone. A political fantasy where the characters never really *lose* all that much except maybe prestige, but they're trying to achieve something really important that means a lot to them, for example. There could easily be dozens of factors influencing the decisions of the ruler/ruling body without it necessarily resulting in the ruler's best friend dying, said best friend's children being scattered across the face of the earth, the kingdom disintegrating into half a dozen warring factions, and evil ice-beings invading. :D

I’ve sleepwalked through some fantasies because the author didn’t seem to care, and neither did the characters on one or more sides. The villains acted stupidly, the plot holes gaped, the author was open about interfering to preserve a character’s life or reverse a rule that she had earlier stated was absolute, the heroes achieved reconciliations and love affairs and the throne and psychological healing with no effort at all, and every single moment that should have been grand and dramatic came off as clichéd.

*nods* This is the problem with any kind of written-by-numbers fiction or fiction that doesn't build character well enough - it happens in science fiction and other genres as well. Characters who really care about what they're doing are always far more interesting, and I think the best way to show that is to throw difficult challenges at them and show them overcoming them anyway (without resorting to superpowers or dei ex machina).

That’s right. People fuck it up, not ancient evils or gods who are raining down destruction on blameless kingdoms or some natural disaster. They can add to the damage, but they can’t be the sole cause of it. If we’re playing the blame game, which is, unfortunately, the set of terms that a lot of fantasy gets cast in—authors become obsessed with whose fault something is—then everybody’s to blame.

I think you can have ancient evils and gods in what you've designated as brutal fantasy (again, I think I would refer to it as 'realistic, well-written fantasy'). But they have to be characterized rather than stereotyped, just like the humanoids.

And now show how they go about fixing it. I don’t think brutal fantasies are hostile to hope. I think that the hope, like the fucked-upness, has to come from inside the universe, not outside. So I do think that brutal fantasies are hostile to universal panaceas, such as the fulfillment of a prophecy is often presented as.

I think this is absolutely crucial. If you simply show a morass of empty, amoral actions resulting in hopeless despair and destruction, you end up with modern literature, not good fantasy. :D There has to be *some* light at the end of the tunnel.

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[info]maureenlycaon
2005-06-05 04:22 pm UTC (link)
As I always say: "Every time you ask when A Feast For Crows is coming out, George RR Martin kills a main character. Please, think of the characters."

MUHAHAHAHA! I'm going to have to remember that one, even though A Feast of Crows is finally out. Who knows how long he'll take with the next, after all . . .

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(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2005-06-05 08:14 pm UTC

[info]woodburner
2005-06-05 11:01 am UTC (link)
Wow... I now finally have a simple subgenre label that fits my main project. "Brutal Fantasy." Whenever anyone asked me what I was writing I would stutter around like, "uh, Fantasy-epic-ish with uh, elements of horror and... um..."

But I think Brutal Fantasy about covers it. I seem to have your requirements for characters down pat, but my world-building (and thus consequence-building) is sadly insufficient. I already knew this, of course. I just don't have the faintest idea of how to work on it. :\

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[info]limyaael
2005-06-05 08:16 pm UTC (link)
Well, I think world-building in the name of brutal fantasy is often a matter of looking at the environment and finding the deadliest elements. Practice in this wouldn't hurt.

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(no subject) - [info]woodburner, 2005-06-06 05:44 am UTC

[info]blunder_buss
2005-06-05 11:34 am UTC (link)
Considering that my canon is sometimes rather dark, unfair, and cruel, this rant helps me muchly. Buwahaha. >:D

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[info]inarticulate
2005-06-05 03:19 pm UTC (link)
Gaaah. I realized a while back that I was going to have to kill off a large proportion of my cast (I already knew about one of the characters, adored her, gritted my teeth and killed her off), and I've been dawdling because I just know it's going to be painful for me and the narrator, and this story just keeps getting worse...

...and this rant helps. A lot. Because I can see my areas of weakness and where I'm probably going to have to go back and edit, but it's like getting permission or something. So thank you. :) Your rants area always helpful and wonderful, and sometimes in ways I didn't expect!

(And I am more determined than ever not to back down from the emotional climax, which is an added bonus.)

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[info]inarticulate
2005-06-05 05:25 pm UTC (link)
Are, not area. Usually my typos are not actual words.

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[info]marumae
2005-06-05 03:36 pm UTC (link)
Mmm see I love brutal fantasy, it's probably my favorite fantasy genre now. Then again I like brutal themed things, comics, video games, movies, because for me if at the end of the day things actually do suceed as the protag or whatever side you're cheering on wishes, that makes it even more sweet. Because of all the trouble, trauma and sadness that went into it and will result because of it.

Like you I too am growing tired of the "get the original whiny protagonist on the throne" genre that plagues High Fantasy.

But one things I require in any book I read is a character I care enough about to go on these adventures with. That was one of my problems with Martin, in the end the characters he had left, aside from maybe one none were enough to really inspire this long ardeous trek with them. Though now that I've been spoiled rotten as to what happened in the book I want to return to it someday. Perhaps when the entire series is finished, I'll return. If for nothing else to see how the hell he wraps everything up. He's certainly a master of the "epic".

That and *highlight for spoiler*I think I remember hearing somewhere that Theon Greyjoy would return, how the hell he plans on doing that I don't know, but I really would like to see. Hell I'd like an entire series about a family like the Greyjoys, they were among my favorites. Add into that an entire series about life on the wall or a series that's about a life (like his wall) then I'd be one happy camper*end spoiler*

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[info]limyaael
2005-06-05 08:18 pm UTC (link)
I care a great deal about many of Martin's characters, either in the "I love them" way, or in the "I can't wait to see what happens to them" way (there's some of that in my fascination with Arya), or "Gods, I want them to die" way (Cersei). So, I guess, for me I don't really care how long or how dark his series gets, as long as he actually does finish writing it before he dies and as long as he stays true to the ideas he sets in motion, without introducing, say, some ancient god to fix everything. But I grant that his writing won't work for everyone. I'm just tired of seeing it denigrated for being so "depressing," as if fantasy has some inherent duty to be happy and comforting.

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(no subject) - [info]marumae, 2005-06-05 11:07 pm UTC

[info]aurorae90
2005-06-05 04:47 pm UTC (link)
It isn't a fantasy book, I know, but All Quiet On The Western Front makes you see the horrors of trench warfare first hand - the ugliness of battle and everything. I just love its realism.

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[info]limyaael
2005-06-05 08:19 pm UTC (link)
We read that as part of our World History class, and I think it was the only book I read in school that really shook me.

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(no subject) - [info]aurorae90, 2005-06-06 08:11 pm UTC

[info]deathglare
2005-06-05 05:26 pm UTC (link)
Thinking on it though, and it would be both too fitting and somewhat comedic(Though it would dark comedy so it might just fit.) for a brutal fantasy. I want to write a scene now that the hero gets himself into a situation that should be almost certain death in most cases and then the Deus Ex Machina comes in and is the first person to get slaughtered by the hero as he snaps and goes berserk.

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[info]kadaria
2005-06-05 05:46 pm UTC (link)
When I read this rant the Dominions of Earth by Adam Lee came to mind series came to mind.
Very dark with rape, gore and nothing going right.

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watership down spolier
[info]kadaria
2005-06-05 06:05 pm UTC (link)
About slaughtering protagonists. In Watership Down I was ok at the end when Hazel died. Even after spending over 1000 pages with him. I think I was content with it because after that many pages Hazel had a good life, lived happily ever after and died peacefully. I knew what was going to happen and was comfy.
In other books and fantasies, I've watched protagonists die the "heroic death" and have only been surprised by it a few times. Normally I can pick up who's going to die and who's going to almost die and come back to life. So I guess getting that element of surprise is the tricky part. I guess I'm annoyed by the sappy, see through heroic death to have only been impressed by it a few times.

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Thank you!
[info]sphingx
2005-06-05 08:39 pm UTC (link)
Thank you thank you thank you thank you!

I had this particularly necessary but wretched turn of events in mind for one of my stories that I was almost going to weasel out of... because it involved very very horrible things happening to a character I really really really like.

But after reading this I think I found the courage I needed to grit my teeth and go through with it.


*sniff* This is going to hurt like hell.

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[info]dwg
2005-06-06 01:34 am UTC (link)
I...am hyper from this entry.

This is all the things that I really want to write. I just need to sit down and do itM. It's like you just scooped out all the bits of my brain that I love and put it into nice words.

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