Limyaael ([info]limyaael) wrote,
@ 2005-06-08 16:56:00
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Current mood: energetic
Entry tags:fantasy rants: spring 2005, viewpoint rants

Deciding on your viewpoint character
This is just a list of questions, really. The answers will be different for each author, and it’ll all depend on the kind of characters you’ve created and the story you want to tell. I will give examples of considerations you might want to take into account and things I’ve seen that don’t’ work, but they’re examples rather than prescriptions; you may be able to make them work, and work very well.



1) Who can tell the story? The purest and simplest consideration. You know where on the map your characters are, where in time they are, how close they are to what will become epicenters of important events. It is up to you to make the decision. You might have a character who’s a hell of an interesting narrator, but she just can’t come in to the first book because she spends that first book stuck in a tiny backwater village where nothing alters from day to day. You need viewpoint characters who can witness the plague happening, the dragons ascending in the north, the family matriarch making a decision that will shake every other family member to her foundations. Be patient. This is one nice thing about multiple viewpoint characters: so long as the introduction isn’t entirely random, you can introduce the interesting narrator in the second book, where she’s needed.

A consideration less often raised is who can emotionally or intellectually tell the story. The narrative may need to be a deep and serious adult kind of story, with the reader immersed in happenings among the adults and understanding their conversations in crystal clarity. Tell it from the perspective of a child who only remembers bits of the adults’ talk and sees all action from the edge, and while it may still be a very interesting story, the reader will need to puzzle-piece together the conversations instead of reading them in full comprehension. There’s always the possibility that certain readers may miss a point or the point, or think the story is supposed to be about the child and not the adults; after all, he’s the narrator. Here’s a “too much twist, not enough story” kind of problem again. Does the narrative need reader labor? If it doesn’t, if in fact its point would be anathema to that kind of reading, then don’t tell the story through a difficult narrator just to be “cool.” The viewpoint character should actually fit the story you are telling. (For other examples of this, see points 4-6 inclusive).

2) Who can show us just what we need to know? Okay, so you’ve scythed out a whole bunch of characters who can’t tell the story because they’re too far away or don’t understand what’s going on or are stuck doing deadly boring things for the first 100 pages that would make those pages a slog instead of entertaining. But that still leaves a whole bunch of people. How do you pick among them?

Here you’ll probably need to twine the character with the plot. There may be people who would give the ending away if the reader was allowed one glimpse inside their heads. There may be people whose partial narration would only confuse the reader, and not in a good way (say, a man who spends days dodging and running through the forest from enemies, but never finds anyone or anything who can help him, explain what the enemies are, or show how they twine in with the rest of the plot). There may be people who, oooh, would be just perfect, but have no reason to pay attention to that odd stranger who crosses their paths, since they live in a cosmopolitan city where strangers of all kinds regularly appear.

Fitting plot with character, and reader knowledge with viewpoint character, is a delicate process, and imperfect. Work at it, though, and it’ll be much better than just seizing on the first person who happens to be in the same city as the antagonist.

3) Who has the most stake in what’s happening? Who depends on the resolution of events? Who has a reason to be at the heart of them, helping or hindering or doing both? Who has a reason to leave home, swing a sword, adopt an odd child, nurse an amnesiac stranger back to health, or do whatever else you need them to to urge this book into flight?

Most of the time—I’ll discuss the exceptions below—this will be the person you want not only as your viewpoint character, but as your protagonist. This is the category I’ve probably encountered most often misapplied. The author chooses someone to tell the story with, and even to place at the heart of the action, who has no stake whatsoever. She goes back in time, watches something else happen, and returns essentially unchanged. Or she witnesses a banquet and feast, but apparently the author is just exercising her pretty description muscles; nothing of importance occurs there or to the character. Or the author seizes on a minor character in a far-flung corner of the fantasy world whose only function is to observe. This might work if the character had any reason to eavesdrop on her masters’ conversations or be present at court functions. Too often, the character who is “eyes on the action” only gets her own brand of contrivance. The author shoehorns her into the action whether or not she has a reason to be there.

The two common exceptions to not telling the story through a wanting, involved, determined character are pretty easy to spot. One is when the involved character is, for whatever reason, too caught up in the action to give a clear picture. Then a minor character has to give us the outsider’s perspective, what I call a “sideline story.” This happens in The Great Gatsby, to give an example.

The other is when the author jumps outside the usual protagonist to tell something that the protagonist can’t tell because it occurs when he’s unconscious/asleep/insane/incapacitated in some other way that keeps him from narrating. This is usually a short section, and the author returns to the protagonist when he’s awake/healed/whatever. Only thing here, really, is to make sure the information is vital to your story, and I say that mainly because I’m one of those picky readers who resents being torn out of the head of someone I like and plopped down into the head of someone I don’t know for a brief unnecessary patch of plot.

You could also condense this whole thing down into: Who in your story seems to be wearing a sign that says, “Kick me”?

4) Who has the inner life that best complements the outer plot? This is the most individual of them, as there will be as many different kinds of answers as there are different kinds of plots. For a fast-paced, rip-roaring adventure that skips along merrily over the plotholes, you might want a wise-cracking, smartass first-person narrator with all the usual emotional baggage; the main point is to keep the story flowing in a manner that entertains the audience and answers genre conventions, and if the protagonist insists on meditating on the mysteries of the universe for huge chunks of dense purple prose, she’ll just get in the way.

For a philosophical fantasy, you had better have someone capable of meditating on the mysteries of the universe, or the story will have to consist of infodump after infodump, in which the protagonist hears but does not really grasp anything.

For a dark fantasy, someone capable of experiencing pain and horror for what happens to them would be, well, nice. There’s only so much one can do with an apathetic narrator who’s beyond all feeling, or a jaded one who constantly asks the villain if that’s all he’s got, and the author may well distance the reader from the very emotions she means to portray.

For a bildungsroman or a transformative fantasy, have a character capable of change. Signal that before the character actually does begin changing, or it will seem to come out of nowhere. (See point 5).

Like I said, lots of different answers. You’ll have to come up with your own in your own way. There’s a wonderful challenge in using a seemingly mismatched viewpoint character to tell a story and then showing how she fits in at the end, but if it winds up a total mismatch, the story will be a mishmash.

5) Who has the most potential to become interesting in the future? This is not the only consideration in choosing your narrator (see point 6, for the love of tiny furry green tomatoes), but it’s a big one if you plan a series character, or a character whose arc is going to include self-discovery. What about her flaws is interesting? What about her virtues is? What weak points does she have, ones that she may not even know are weak? What would change her violently and completely, and is she going to encounter it? What will she do, see, think, believe? Where is she going to go? Plant clues that point to these by all means, but also choose a narrator through whom you can show the clues.

Unfortunately, with this aspect, the negative examples are easier to think of than the positive ones. I will now discuss one while not-spoiling-the-ending-of-the-book,-really,-just-trust-me. I just finished Ill Wind by Rachel Caine, which is the first book in an urban fantasy series about Wardens who control weather, fire, or earth, and protect “ordinary” people against natural disasters, sometimes using the help of Djinn. It’s one of those rollicking wisecracking first-person narrator things, involving a road trip and much usual emotional baggage. The ending was, um, well, out there. But one thing I liked about it was that it was a definite ending, not just a cliffhanger for the next book, and brought the narrator to a good resting place. I thought about reading the rest of the series because I was interested in the world and interested in seeing how the author explored the other characters.

Then I found out the rest of the books are about the same narrator.

Huh? I mean, why? I don’t think much more can be done with the same character except make her more powerful (signs of which are evident even in Ill Wind). Reading the descriptions of the second and third novels, it looks like that’s exactly what happens. And I’m really not interested in reading a series like that. Reading eleven Anita Blake books taught me some harsh lessons, but this happened to be one of the ones with some good at its core of bitterness: more power does not make a narrator interesting.

Consider where and how future change is going to come from, especially if you plan on following this viewpoint character across several books, or into an open-ended series. Is she really capable of enduring change, of an interesting, different future? If the answer is “no,” please stop, or switch to someone else’s story. Please.

6) Who is interesting now? This is the corollary to 5, one reason I must now gaze mournfully at the high fantasy books I’ve bought and will never read. An author taking a bildungsroman path often starts out a viewpoint character with hints that things will change for her in the future. She’ll get the answers, the power, the missing artifact, the high position. All of that will happen in the next several hundred pages, or the next several books.

What they forget is that the narrator, as well as changing, has to be, um, someone not really fucking boring at the point where the reader starts the book.

Here, genre conventions can and will screw you over. Here is Innocent Teenage Boy. The author, confident that the reader knows there’s a glorious future waiting for him, does not bother to give him an interesting inner life when the book starts. For the first book or first several hundred pages, he’s a combination of “eyes on the action,” infodump listener, and plot device. If you take away specific names, there is nothing about him to distinguish him from Eddings’s Garion/Williams’s Simon/Flewelling’s Alec. He’s just sort of There, and the reader is supposed to endure the boredom because of what he will become.

I don’t think so.

Yes, this is personal, and yes, this is ranty, and yes, it’s sponsored partly by my dislike of high fantasy. Don’t care. I don’t think many authors set out deliberately to make boring characters, but there’s often a tone in fantasy of, “Ha, puny mortals, just wait until you reach the end and see what I can do then!” when there should be a tone of, “Isn’t this interesting? Follow me! It will become even more interesting!”

Don’t rely on genre conventions, or what the character will turn into, to get the reader to read. First of all, the reader has to have someone she can see it as being worthwhile to root for.

7) Who has relative freedom of movement? A minor consideration, this, but I will mention it because I’ve seen it crop up a few times.

So you have a character who answers every other consideration in the book: he’s interesting right now, he has potential to change, you like him, he can be in on the action, he’s the heart of it, he’ll reveal just enough because the reader learns things as he will, and so on. He also happens to be the king of the kingdom, and in chapter 2, you really need him to go running off madly over the countryside, via plot demands.

Oops.

This is not a problem for non-journey stories (listen to me sing their praises again!), ones that are set in a single house or village or country. You could probably figure out a reason for the king to move about the castle or visit a couple nearby baronies on a progress. But if you know you’re going to use a journey, a scouting mission, or other kinds of plots requiring rapid movement, please choose a narrator who won’t have to take an entire court with him and notify everyone of his movements six months in advance.

“Relative freedom of movement” can take on several different meanings in this context. After all, you could come up with a plot clever enough to get the king out of his palace and running all over the countryside plausibly; I’ve seen authors do it. The main thing, as always, is to do it sleight of hand, so it doesn’t look contrived, rather than ignoring all considerations and just dumping the king or the prince or the invalid in the middle of a situation where they’re not going to go.

8) Who will fit best with the viewpoint structure that you wish to use? A corollary of 4, and maybe all the rest. Fantasy does have a certain freedom to use an ensemble cast and flicker back and forth between characters’ heads that might drive people crazy in a mystery or romance book, because fantasy traditionally concerns a cast of thousands. However, there is no reason to use this freedom to go on a mad head-hopping expedition-cum-travelogue, telling various side-stories through the eyes of minor characters just because you can. ([Insert obligatory sneer to certain bloated epics].)

First-person? You’ll probably want to limit the viewpoint cast somewhat, even if you’re using multiple first-person narrators, just because readers often get intimate with a first-person character in a way they don’t with third-person narrators, and you don’t want to exhaust them with deep glimpses of seven or eight different people’s minds.

Third-person limited? Great work if you can get it. Once again, just make sure that you’re using the narrators you want to and need to. Necessity alone makes for a dreary book and lots of characters like the boring ones in point 6. Want alone leads to the mad head-hopping expedition-cum-travelogue. ([Second obligatory sneer]).

Third-person omniscient? Keep a rein on it. Keep the omniscient narrator’s voice as consistent as possible, and show a reason for hopping into people’s heads. One reason I get tired of omniscient books, other than the sheer weariness that results from trying to keep track of ten or fourteen different viewpoint characters, is that authors seem to make choices without rhyme or reason. Why the hell is the hero’s girlfriend narrating this passage instead of the hero?

Others? Work it out. Fantasy offers enormous freedom. It does not mean that authors should shamelessly take advantage of that freedom. ([Third obligatory sneer]).



Cities next, yay! (Probably a two-part rant).




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[info]fadethecat
2005-06-08 09:10 pm UTC (link)
Ah, viewpoint. Definitely...tricky.

I just finished writing a longish story that used two different first-person viewpoint characters, plus occasional short third-person scenes following a specific small group. This worked, I think, fairly well. Both first-person character were interesting, reasonably perceptive, had reasons to be on the scene and to change, and the occasional third-person narrative let me use an entertainingly different writing style for a very specific purpose.

And now on the sequel, I'm back on the first viewpoint character, and...I'm having issues. Sure, said person is involved in a Plot, but following just that person for the whole story would be dull. I could bring in the second character's PoV again, but he's doing something entirely different somewhere, so keeping the plots tied together would be tricky. The small group who got third-person passages are completely out of the story. But I don't have any obvious candidates for another PoV character... Which is why I've written the first chapter and am now staring at the whole thing with a bemused expression.

I shall go through my theoretical (very, very theoretical) plot-to-be with your checklist, and see if that helps. (I mean, #7 severely reduces my options. I may have to introduce a new character entirely.)

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[info]limyaael
2005-06-09 10:17 pm UTC (link)
Why, specifically, would following the one person be dull? If the situation he's in isn't always the most interesting, I can understand, but I don't think a single-viewpoint story is automatically less engaging than a multiple-viewpoint story. If nothing else, a single-viewpoint story allows you to put a very individual spin and definition on the world, something that a multiple-viewpoint story usually undermines by showing the reader something closer to objective reality.

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[info]fadethecat
2005-06-09 10:26 pm UTC (link)
In this case, it would be dull because a great deal of interesting plot is happening elsewhere while she's working on a fairly slow, subtle mission. Which will have many Interesting Moments, but having all the other cool things that are happening offscreen only show up when they start to intersect seriously with her plot would make things... well. Dull.

This is actually the first time I've written multiple first-person PoV fic. Heck, I usually don't even write multiple PoV fic at all; I prefer very close third person, or sometimes first person. I just ended up with two characters who want to talk in first person in this story, and in the sequel... well, neither wants to shut up now.

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[info]jennifer_dunne
2005-06-08 09:22 pm UTC (link)
Another fabulous rant, as usual!

I'd add two more categories.

9) Will you be trompling reader expectations by making this a viewpoint character? LKH ran into problems with this one, when she made Edward a viewpoint character, when over the course of previous books as a significant non-viewpoint-character, readers had built up their own ideas of what his POV was like, and got extremely cranky when LKH's idea and theirs didn't mesh.

10) Is this character WILLING to be a viewpoint character? I have a series of two books following the adventures of Reynart and Angie. In the first book, they take turns as the POV character. In the second book, as a result of the events of the first book, Reynart is emotionally closed down enough that he could not be a viewpoint character, and Angie has to narrate the entire story (except for one brief scene when she's not present, but is late enough in the book that his emotions are starting to make a resurgence).

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[info]limyaael
2005-06-09 10:24 pm UTC (link)
So she did make Edward a POV character? I hadn't known that.

I tend to think number 10 would go with number 1, to an extent. If the character is so withdrawn that he can't tell the story, the author is making a mistake to insist on having him as narrator just because it would be cool.

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[info]jessara40k
2005-06-10 02:47 pm UTC (link)
I don't think she did make Edward a viewpoint character. She wrote a book focused on him, but that's a different thing.

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[info]jenlittlebottom
2005-06-08 09:59 pm UTC (link)
I am a multiple-viewpoint whore, which I know is really something I need to crack down on. *weeps* But the latest new-n-shiny project will involve just a single narrator, if it kills me trying.

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[info]limyaael
2005-06-11 10:08 pm UTC (link)
I was a single-narrator person for a long time, because the first multiple-viewpoint project I tried failed spectacularly. Sometimes I think that I'm too invested in my viewpoint characters, because it does keep me from being comfortable with omniscient and drags my attention back to the structural aspects of a book and away from certain freedoms. But then I read a published fantasy novel where the viewpoint bounces away in the middle of a scene, spends about a line in Character B's head, and then comes back to Character A pretty much randomly, and I'm glad that I've got this kind of rigidity.

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[info]caremel
2005-06-08 10:10 pm UTC (link)
Number 6 is soooo true. Why do authors make boring characters? why? The story does not matter w/o interesting characters. Why do most amateur and a few real authors have difficulty realizing that?

~Caremel

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[info]limyaael
2005-06-11 10:10 pm UTC (link)
I don't know. However, I think many of them do believe their characters are interesting- and to some readers they might be. What I resent most is authors who think that the promise of interesting things to come is enough, so they resist character development while they infodump about the world. And I can find mythic histories, often not that different from each other, for a dime a dozen on any bookstore fantasy shelf. I want to see how the people learning and living and hearing these things react to them.

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[info]amberdine
2005-06-08 10:23 pm UTC (link)
You know, I never imagined there were so many fantasy issues to rant about! Good stuff, as always.

I have a POV from a powerless peasant woman, who feels the results of what the other high-and-mighty characters are doing. I have had a complaint about her ineffectiveness, but I dunno. I like having someone there to show the consequences.

Hrmn.

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[info]cynicallyinsane
2005-06-09 08:58 am UTC (link)
That is interesting, but I can't say why she is 'ineffective' unless I know more about her. Perhaps they were complaining about how fantasy characters are meant to...ahem...'save the world' and 'fight injustice' and because she was a peasant woman she couldn't do anything about it? I quite like that idea, as long as you have made her interesting of course, and shown her struggles. Because being a peasant was miserable. I could read through it if you want...

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[info]amberdine
2005-06-09 06:45 pm UTC (link)
That would be cool... lemme go friend you so I remember you when it's ready for a readthrough (prolly the end of June). No obligation, of course.

All the other POVs are from very powerful people (or those tagging along with very powerful people), but this peasant woman does briefly interact with two main characters, and she is extremely affected by what everyone does. I wanted to include her side of things.

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[info]cynicallyinsane
2005-06-10 09:37 am UTC (link)
I dont mind- as long as it is a good story, and because you read limyaael's rants, I think it will be.
I will be as picky as you want- people often complain that I cant just enjoy a book- I have to deconstruct it. ^_^

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[info]limyaael
2005-06-11 10:11 pm UTC (link)
If she's powerless but still adds to the plot, then I don't think it's a problem. But I have read powerless characters who were just there to keep an eye on some tag-end of the plot, and I got impatient with that because I felt the author should have chosen a character more central to the action (or else the entire tag-end was unnecessary and boring). I think any viewpoint character should have more than one purpose for being in the story.

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Hmmm
[info]bain_drenal
2005-06-08 10:30 pm UTC (link)
Interesting rant. Another problem I hate (though not with deciding on a character, per se) is when all of the view point characters have the same voice. Their thought patterns are all the same, they notice all of the same things, etc... That's one of the quickest ways to make me bored.

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[info]ladyshina
2005-06-08 11:08 pm UTC (link)
Thanks for the list of questions. It does make deciding one's viewpoint character much easier. :)

I'm one of those fantasy writers who only use a single narrator for the entire novel, which cuts down the options for viewpoint characters quite a bit. This is because I like books that are written from strictly one character's POV from the the beginning to the end, mostly because I usually get emotionally involved with the first character whose viewpoint I'm in (yeah, I'm a bit weird that way). In novel where there are multiple viewpoint characters, I often have to fight the urge to skip parts narrated by characters whom I'm not interested in.

Deciding the POV character isn't normally a problem to me, because, like many other novels, the protagonist and the POV character is usually one and the same. Lately, I've started on a novel where there I like the protagonist's (and narrator's) sidekick more than I like the protagonist himself. Therefore I've decided to change the position of the protagonist and the sidekick so that I'd be able to write from the sidekick's POV. This would've been hard because of #1 and #2, but luckily, they're both around for the most important parts, so it wasn't a problem.

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[info]caremel
2005-06-10 02:13 am UTC (link)
I totally aagree about different viewpoints...I usually invest my feelings in one character and wish I didn't have to hear so much form the others. It really annoys me when it skips around in crucial parts, like in the novel we are reading in French, Les Jeux Sont Fait by Jean-Paul Sartre.
~Caremel

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[info]limyaael
2005-06-11 10:13 pm UTC (link)
I prefer one-person books as long as I like the viewpoint character. :) I automatically try to like the narrator, but there have been times I bounced hard off someone (especially the 'abused-orphan-hero' types). So I usually wind up liking a minor character instead, and wishing the story had been told through that person.

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Says the Laurell K Hamilton fan...
[info]neonethos
2005-06-09 12:05 am UTC (link)
Reading eleven Anita Blake books taught me some harsh lessons, but this happened to be one of the ones with some good at its core of bitterness: more power does not make a narrator interesting.

Brilliant. It's one of the reasons i've not been too enthused about keeping up with her books anymore. I've been reading her blog, and she plans for 16 at the very least...it hurts my brain. I don't see where else Anita can go but more uber powerful and if she gets more powerful I might vomit all over the book. My only hope is that suddenly she's stripped over everything she has and we get to start over. Human, relatively speaking, and alot easier to relate to.

Viewpoint is something I always worry about, and I think your rant (like always) helps alot. Definatel more food for thought.

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Re: Says the Laurell K Hamilton fan...
[info]limyaael
2005-06-11 10:14 pm UTC (link)
Hamilton supposedly plans to bring Anita out of the arduer in the end and make her a federal investigator of some kind. I really don't think it's going to work, or else that the transition has already taken too long. I expected to see her resolve some things after Obsidian Butterfly, and if anything was resolved in Narcissus in Chains, I certainly couldn't see it for the sex.

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Re: Says the Laurell K Hamilton fan...
[info]neonethos
2005-06-11 10:19 pm UTC (link)
Narcissus in Chains was mild compared to some of her more recent ones. It's kind of a bad sign when your reader yells out loud 'OH MY GOD ARE YOU HAVING SEX AGAIN?!' and then ends up skipping about 6 pages.

I really love the series, and i'm holding on for dear life to my hope that things improve substantially.

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Re: Says the Laurell K Hamilton fan...
[info]almeda
2005-06-20 03:09 am UTC (link)
For a lovely antidote to this problem (and I agree, Anita's tale is turning into one of the worst of all possible Monty Haul campaigns, to use old RPG jargon), read Jim Butcher's Dresden books. At the end of book (mumble -- five or six I think I'm on now), the protagonist/viewpoint character is EXACTLY as easy to kill as at the beginning of the first, despite the fact that he managed to ramp up tension and enemy power and everything. Very well done. Also funny as hell. :->

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[info]takumashii
2005-06-09 12:29 am UTC (link)
One of my problems with multiple-viewpoint books is that it's hard to figure out just who the main character's supposed to be; my trick (and I have no idea if it's a good one) is to assign a hierarchy of viewpoints, so that if A and B are both present for a scene, you give the viewpoint to A unless there's a compelling reason otherwise, and if B and C are present for a scene, B gets it (without a compelling reason otherwise); the WIP has four viewpoint characters, and I think it would've been too diffuse if I'd let them each have the same number of scenes, instead of trying to give them to the two most important characters when possible.

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[info]tiferet
2005-06-09 04:59 am UTC (link)
I'm not sure why you need to figure out who the main character is. I mean, I love GRRM's Song Of Ice And Fire, which has bunches of them. And that's how I do it, too. I like big worlds with action in more than one place.

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[info]takumashii
2005-06-09 02:21 pm UTC (link)
Yeah, I know everybody loves Song of Ice and Fire.

I'm a heretic. There was too much going on for me to be able to pay attention.

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[info]limyaael
2005-06-11 10:15 pm UTC (link)
I like knowing that these people have some presence and importance in the plot. I don't like it when the author tries to force me to cheer for someone (even if I naturally would cheer for them, I hate it when the author starts putting in things like conversations where the other characters discuss how brave and wonderful the viewpoint character is). That's actually one reason I love Martin: the complication means that, while some characters may take central stage for a time, not one of them controls everything that happens in that world, the way that the heroine who holds every magical power and is the answer to every prophecy does.

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[info]mindelemental
2005-06-09 03:21 am UTC (link)
I remember you posted a favourable review of Sailing to Sarantium, a book I also enjoyed. However, how do you reconcile that with #8? StS wasn't so much about Crispin per se as it was about all the people Crispin met, each getting a moment (the Blues' apprentice cook) or three (Carullus, the alchemist who created Linon et al). And it was prone to going into lengthy digressions about them, most notably the one about Pronobius Tilliticus's ultimate fate.

GGK pulled it off, and made it fun -- not the least because each one of those characters was so interesting and sympathetic, and because telling a coherent story wasn't the point of StS -- but he broke all the rules in the process, including #8.

(I still need to get Lord of Emperors, by the way; please don't spoil it for me, but I understand it's a lot more coherent than StS.)

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[info]mindelemental
2005-06-09 03:22 am UTC (link)
That should be "Carullus AND the alchemist...". Just a clarification.

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[info]limyaael
2005-06-11 10:20 pm UTC (link)
I don't see how Kay breaks every one of them.

1) He does use people who can tell the story. Sailing to Sarantium is more episodic than most fantasy novels, but never once did I feel violently snapped away from the main narrative to answer some unimportant little question. The omniscient narrator's voice is consistent. Yes, his little foreshadowing, coy bits can get annoying, but I never felt that he violated the constraints of what was possible with it.

2) He comes closest here- the foreshadowing bits again. As for why we need the characters to have a certain level of knowledge, I can't tell you that, because you didn't want me to tell you anything about Lord of Emperors.

3) All the characters have a stake in what's happening. Even Crispin acquires one, though he really doesn't want to.

4) How did you feel the characters' inner lives didn't complement the outer plot?

5) All the characters also have potential for change, and the way that that gets fulfilled is obvious in Lord of Emperors.

6) You noted yourself that Kay's characters are interesting, so he didn't violate 6.

7) Relative level of freedom of movement is obvious; Valerius's nighttime trips into the sanctuary and so on are seen as odd, but accepted, and Crispin was obviously freed up by the death of his wife and daughters.

So, I really don't see how he violated everything. I could be biased because this is my favorite fantasy series, and there are books in existence that break these 'rules' and do just fine. But I really don't believe that StS violated them, and certainly not all of them.

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[info]mindelemental
2005-06-12 12:30 am UTC (link)
Sorry. I meant he broke all the rules in a metaphorical sense. What I should have said was, "he broke the oft-quoted rule about only showing what was relevant to the plot, and he broke #8 from that list".

I take your point re: some of its being important to Lord of Emperors; I really need to get that.

(And yes, I agree with you that "rules" are anything but inviolable, and that StS is proof of it.)

By analogy, I guess you could liken what Sailing to Sarantium did with POVs to ASOIAF had GRRM used mostly one-off POVs, with a couple of occasionally recurring ones and a single 'nexus' POV.

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[info]dwg
2005-06-09 03:46 am UTC (link)
I'm going to shove this in my memories and print off a hard copy to keep with my writing notes. POVs trouble me.

Reading eleven Anita Blake books taught me some harsh lessons, but this happened to be one of the ones with some good at its core of bitterness: more power does not make a narrator interesting.

Don't forget the pr0ns. More pr0ns than plot doesn't make the narrator any more interesting either. I know I put forward a rant as to why Incubus Dreams should have been the last book in the series - ever - and cited reasons like resolving stuff; the marks, for example. They've been there since book six and aren't any closer to being a done deal in book 12 for crying out loud.

The series can be salvaged if it didn't follow first-person Anita all the time, maybe focused on some of the supporting cast - or egads, some of them just got killed. But no, no...Hamilton says she's too attached to people to kill them off. Reading her blog is a wonderful exercise in What Not To Do When You're Famous.

That said, I'm still going through all the Anita Blake series, summarising them and trying to figure out where it all started to go horribly, horribly wrong. I'll probably do the same to the Merry Gentry series and then rant and rave about What Not To Do When Writing Political Intrigue.

I'll give The Dresden Files a big plug because it's now 7 books strong and still interesting. And...Nancy A. Collins books are always one of my favourite ways to un-atrophe my brain after a bout of Hamiltons. I admire the way that the Sonja Blue books can skip around POV and still propel the story forward. It's all messed up, but it at least makes sense without being trite.

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Where Anita jumped the shark
[info]almeda
2005-06-20 03:14 am UTC (link)
I started feeling less enthralled and more 'Whoa -- what?' round about Blue Moon, if that helps any.

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[info]packbat
2005-06-09 02:51 pm UTC (link)
I like (5), and I've got another example of a should-have-changed-protagonists series (although it is 'sci-fi'): the Honor Harrington series by David Weber. Oddly enough (*snerk*), the protagonist in question essentially spends every book getting more and more powerful.

Well, no, it's not that bad. Really, it doesn't start dive-bombing until book 7 or thereabouts; until then, it's merely shallow but entertaining space opera. I didn't give up on it until the last book, when it became incredibly obvious that the other characters were being warped to make the protagonist look good.

But I'm rambling. In any case, this is a good list; thank you!

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[info]madwriter
2005-06-09 03:06 pm UTC (link)
I'm seriously considering printing out all of these rants to put in their own shiny notebook for kept reference in my Writing Room. :)

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[info]limyaael
2005-06-11 10:23 pm UTC (link)
*grin* Glad to help.

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Slightly OT...
[info]goldjadeocean
2005-06-10 04:06 am UTC (link)
I was at a library discard sale and kind of randomly scooped whatever SF/F into my box that I could. I've come out with a lot of Robert Silverberg and I was just wondering if you've read him, since I don't want to dig into something that will disgust me halfway through.

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Re: Slightly OT...
[info]limyaael
2005-06-11 10:26 pm UTC (link)
I've read two of his novels that I remember, At Winter's End, which is post-apocalyptic science fiction, and Star of Gypsies, about the origins of the Romany. I remember liking both, though I haven't read them in years and so I don't know how well they would hold up now. Both did have intriguing concepts, though, and didn't just follow any old path. And I liked the characters.

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Re: Slightly OT...
[info]goldjadeocean
2005-06-12 01:04 am UTC (link)
Okay. Thanks. I think I'll take a look.

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[info]jaquiel
2005-06-12 06:20 pm UTC (link)
I think it's also important to consider how biased the viewpoint character is going to be. For instance, let's say you have a character who is 'racist' towards... elves. Sure, ok. Elves. Now, how is that character going to think of the elves? He'll hate them, and he'll probably only notice the bad things they do. Do you really want this character to be the only voice, when you, as the author, know that elves are not bad, and the character is a racist? How are your readers going to know this?

This is the reason that I, personally, switch between viewpoints in my story. Well, that and the fact that I think some on my characters better embody some of the qualities you mentioned than others. I mean, one of my narrators is closest to all of the major events, but I also have her 'speak' in a certain way. I have another character who is a little more left on center, a little more strange, and I like to write as her when possible because I think that she helps makes things interesting.

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[info]a1viola
2005-06-23 11:28 pm UTC (link)
You're definetely right on #3, I don't like it when its not either a central character narrating, or third person omnicient/omnipotent. Except, of course, those rare exceptions you discussed, but I still prefer third person to that. I personally hated The Great Gatsby, it was such a horrible, dragging read...

#4, just s thought, but for a dark fantasy, if you happened to have a sadistic central character, why not have them narrate?

#5/#6, (I know, I know, I've become obsessed with this, but it is partially your fault for making me think along these lines, but then maybe you'll be on an acknowledgement page for it someday...) Why not have it narrated by Mr. Stalker Hermit who shows up to lecture the hero in riddles? Especially if you go with the path where the hero ignores him and the readers get to laugh because Mr. Stalker Hermit told him the answers to all his problems and that the meaning of life is 42...

#7, Mr. Stalker Hermit goes everywhere the hero does, he's a stalker!
Also, King running around countryside without court and doing so believably, Cecilia Dart-Thornton's Bitterbynde Trilogy, though he isn't the narrator...

#8, in one of my stories I use third person omniscient with the narrator BEING omniscient. He's god of neutrality and chronicler of the gods and a bunch of other stuff, but he writes it after its ended b/c he was actually a part of the action, too.

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