Limyaael ([info]limyaael) wrote,
@ 2005-06-10 18:00:00
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Current mood: bitchy
Entry tags:fantasy rants: spring 2005, setting rants

City rant (part the first)
The first of two parts. There is just so much to be done here, and a lot of the information will be more or less useful depending on whether you’re writing urban fantasy set in another world or just using the city as a passing-through point.



1) Follow the water. Water is life. It’s drinking, it’s cooking, it’s washing, it’s life for animals, it’s a source of food (even if it doesn’t have fish, it might have shellfish, or seaweed), it drives mills and other keystones of fantasy technology, it makes trade a good deal easier, it puts out fires (especially important if the city is made partially or mostly of wood), it makes other things, it attracts game animals, it defends against invasion. And cities will use a great deal more of it than a farm, a village, or a castle. Trying to establish a city in the center of nowhere, such as a barren wasteland or the heights of the mountains or an underground cavern, with no water nearby, is stupid, asking for trouble, and just not worth it. No, I don’t care how many fire mages live in the city to put out fires or start them in hearths, or that your people don’t use mills, or that it’s against this particular culture’s religion to eat fish. This is one of those times when inventing magical or cultural ‘fixes’ to the ‘problem’ is much more complicated than just putting your city near water in the first damn place.

Good places for cities:

-Rivers. Rivers will provide all the advantages described above, except perhaps perfect protection against invasion. At least it will make it a great deal more difficult for anyone to come up on the city from that side or cut it off from its supply of water in the event of a siege.
-Ocean. Not fresh water, but there will probably be freshwater springs somewhere nearby, and the supply of food and trade is more abundant than it is with a river.
-River flowing into an ocean. In addition to everything else, it’s an excellent place to establish a lookout on the craft coming down the river to the sea and collect tolls.
-Lake. A city on an island in the middle of the lake, or out on docks in the middle of it, will have extra protection.
-Oasis. If there’s a city in the middle of bone-dry desert, it can get away with an oasis, but it better be a fucking big oasis.
-Inland sea. You’ll probably have to adjust your city’s priorities depending on if the water is salt or fresh, but it could be interesting to read about several cities set around the sea and trading between each other.

If you plan a city in a more exotic location, don’t forget about the water. It might be grand to have a city in the middle of a giant tree, but if it doesn’t rain very often, what are they going to drink? (And what is the tree drinking?) A floating city will need to capture clouds, perhaps, and milk them of precipitation. A city high in the mountains could use snow, but there are some problems involved with that, and being near a tiny trickle of a stream wouldn’t help much.

2) Cities grow. Many cities in fantasy are ancient, with crumbling buildings, slums that haven’t been good neighborhoods in centuries, ancient underground passages, and bridges and docks falling to pieces. But there are some circumstances in which that will make more sense than others.

If you’re writing about an empire, and the empire sends forth colonists to settle on a new piece of land, and then someone from the imperial court visits the colony ten years later, there had better not be ancient cities there. Only if the colonists took over a city from the land’s native inhabitants, or if there’s one lying ruined somewhere, would that be permissible. In the first case, there are probably new additions because the colonists are sprucing it up, building homes in the imperial styles and adding new wells and so on. In the second, while the ruins might be a big part of the adventure, the colonists are probably not going to be actually living in them. Would you live in a place where mold could drip on your head and snakes could slither into your bedroom, which is the way most authors describe ruins?

Even in an ancient city, there’s no reason for new construction not to go on, and people simply to live in the shadow of old grandeur. London’s an ancient city. This didn’t stop people from building on to it, or adding new wings on to their homes once they came into money, or extending the outskirts as the city spilled into what was once wild country. When the population swelled with the Industrial Revolution, the men and women heading in to become factory workers either had to refurbish old buildings or construct new places to live—more likely, have them built for them. And when a disaster like the Great Fire struck, people didn’t sit around and stare blankly at the empty places, the way that most fantasy urbanites seem to. They started building again.

You can use old. A fantasy city can be as old as you like. But it’s simply ridiculous to portray it as ruined, wasted, devastated, and people letting it fall to bits just because. In that case, let there be evil magic at work. Try to insist that this is just the way normal people live, and I’ll laugh at you.

3) Know the architecture, and how it helps or hinders legal and illegal activities. Authors with thieves love to show the way that thieves can climb in windows, or use the roofs for daring breakneck escapes, or dodge through narrow alleys to get away from the police, or hide in the very cellars of inns without anyone being the wiser. Sometimes the city seems specially crafted to favor illegal activity.

Why?

Seriously. I want to know. There may be excellent reasons for easy-to-open windows, broad flat roofs with plenty of handholds, twisty alleys in which no one can move but thieves, or secret entrances that the innkeepers never bother to board up. Some even make sense; if the city was built haphazardly, piece by piece, without a sense of an overall plan, alleys and roads that dead-end are more likely than not, and people may have forgotten all about the abandoned cellars if the original owner died or moved away.

Other things don’t make sense, and will not no matter how much the author twists my arm. This city gets a lot of snow. So, um, flat roofs? Hello? Put as much of a blizzard in there as many authors like to put, and you should have buildings collapsing. Also, flat roofs are not much use in the case of rain; they would tend to leak. Consider these kinds of things.

Also, I think it only fair that guards who have spent their entire lives in the city would know it at least as well as thieves who have spent their entire lives in the city. Yes, yes, guards are dumb and thieves are clever, blah blah blah. What-the-fuck-ever. In a city where wealthy nobles and tradesmen live, money should talk. They should be able to afford fancy magical alarms for their homes—ones that not just any thief from the gutter could disarm—and windows that don’t spring open at a touch. Also, if the guards are after a thief on foot, why couldn’t they sprint ahead and catch him when he tries to take an alley that’s a well-known route of fleeing pickpockets, instead of just following helplessly behind him and getting lost? This is their city, too.

Consider the attractions of well-defended houses, pointed roofs, broad wide roads, insider knowledge among people other than the ones in the slums, and deeds to houses that detail every feature, including hidden cellars. A lot of people would, and could, pay to have them. The author can still have a thief protagonist, but beware warping the city to benefit one and only one kind of person.

4) Use sound. Many fantasists use sight—cities are a dumping ground for the author’s exotica—and smell—I would be more surprised to read about a fantasy city without smells of sewage and rotting food than one with. (There’s something people often ignore about that, actually. See point 5). Sound would be as potent a force in the city, though, especially for people who just came in from the country for the first time.

People talking, shouting, greeting, brawling, making bets, selling wares. Animals crying, screaming, clucking, neighing, trotting. Cart and carriage wheels on the move. Restaurants, inns, churches, theaters, grand houses spilling noise into the streets whenever their doors open. Hammers ringing on anvils, machinery rumbling in factories, slaughterhouses at work. Music from street-corner musicians or large festivals. Noise of collisions and disasters and crowds. Clanging of weapons as the guards fight or train. Hammers and chisels and other tools where a new building rises. Children crying. Ships or boats coming in. And on, and on, and on.

Don’t forget this sense. It’s one of the easiest ways to make the city come alive, because of its endless variations, in both form and language; an author can slip in onomatopoeic words unnoticed long after readers have tired of big whopping descriptions of buildings, clothes, and exotic people. It can be more overwhelming than sight or smell, because it’s a lot harder to get away from. And it can function in a way that sight, limited and confined by the necessity of streets and buildings, can’t, to let your protagonists know that something is coming from streets away.

I don’t know. I just think it’s fun to play with.

5) Lots of dirty people in one place= disease city. This is why sewers are a Good Thing, and not just to have convenient places for the hero to sneak into buildings from. They carry away the waste that otherwise might build up in the streets and make people sick. If you do the crazy thing I derided in point 1 and try to establish your city away from any water whatsoever, then no sewers for you! (I wonder what the people in the floating city do. Do they dump everything over the side? I can’t imagine that would make them very popular with the neighbors they’re passing over at the moment. “Gods damnit, they’re raining their shit on our heads again!”)

But even if you have sewers, lots of people crowded together + dirty state of most fantasy cities + lack of advanced medical technology = a whole hell of a lot more plague and localized outbreaks, logically, than most cities seem to suffer.

You can use magic to make compromises, if you like. Perhaps the city government keeps a whole host of water-purifying mages on hand, just to make sure that people don’t get cholera.

You can use it to show classism. Perhaps, if disease breaks out in the slums, the higher classes wall them up and leave people there to die in primitive quarantine.

You can also make accommodations that will help the plot. Perhaps there are street-cleaners, and the runaway heroine can hide in their guild because no one would think to look for her there. Perhaps the nobles flee the city because of the plague, and the city really is half a ghost town, populated only by the sick and those healthy who can’t or won’t leave. Perhaps enemies besieging the city put something that induces disease in the city’s water supply (though they would have to be clever to do so, because leaving their water undefended would prove the city-dwellers are really stupid). Perhaps a “normal” outbreak of disease in one of the slums is treated as just a minor problem at first, but it’s actually the first coming of a plague that will make the Black Death of Europe look benign.

I’m all for introducing disease into fantasy cities, or considering the possibility. Hell, here’s a force that will shape your plot, make you more sharply define your city’s government and architecture, and dump drama and momentum and motivation on the characters that yet another horde of faceless conspirators couldn’t drum up in a hundred smoky rooms. Plus, it makes sense.

6) Tie the city in to the politics around it. Whether your city is a city-state, the capital of a nation, a trading port, the residence of a king or noble, or something else, it is still part of the fantasy world. It’s a more volatile and delicate part than, say, a single village, because while a village’s political pull is often easy to estimate, a city’s can vary enormously, and run in two directions: it might command the attention and loyalty of the villages around it, but be itself subject to threat from another country, command from the capital city, and rivalry with another trading port.

So, know how your city will bend and flow in the shifting tides. Among things to consider:

-Capability of defense/attack. This is not automatically a corollary of its population. Remember, if 50% of a city’s inhabitants live in teeming slums and have never held a weapon, it’s unlikely that they’ll make good trained soldiers. Sword fodder, maybe. Their overlords might not be comfortable letting them have weapons, either, because what if they decided to turn on enemies closer to home?
-Food. Always a concern, since most cities won’t have gardens or fields in the midst of them. If the enemy manages to cut off incoming carts or ships, never mind besiege, starvation will come a-hunting.
-Trade. A city could make a lot of money choking tariffs off incoming ships—if the incoming ships would stand for it. What’s going to happen if a rival city takes offense at the tariffs, or the rival drops tariffs and attracts trade to itself instead? For that matter, what’s going to happen if someone discovers a new trade good at a distance from or near the city?
-Being traded. If the city is near a border, and the country it’s currently in loses a war, it might be traded to the enemy as part of the peace treaty. Then it might be won or lost or traded back. How do people deal with that? Do they consider themselves citizens of both countries? Neither? Do certain classes or groups hold more loyalty towards one nation than the other, and what might they do if they fear that “their” nation is about to lose the war?
-Intra-city politics. A merchants’ group or guild might favor building a new road through the mountains to get back and forth faster, and thus make money. The masons, or whoever else does roadwork, might like that, too. On the other hand, there will be politicians who want to use the money elsewhere in the city, makers of certain goods who don’t want cheap goods from another place pouring in, and “concerned citizens” who look ahead to the immigrants the roads will attract and dislike the prospect. Never neglect how easily a “simple” issue can get snarled up by this kind of thing.

And on, and on, and on. The main thing is to remember that, no matter how grand and magnificent and ancient your city, it’s not static or isolated. It has got to change to survive, particularly if the world around it is dynamic.



I have more ideas, for the second part, but that’s enough right now.

Interesting city-oriented fantasies:

-Terry Pratchett’s Guards subseries of Discworld novels
-Guy Gavriel Kay’s Sarantine Mosaic duology
-Steven Brust’s first two Khaavren Romances, and certain books of his Vlad Taltos series (particularly Teckla, which deals with what happens when the despised human immigrants start revolting against the Empire—in the Empire’s capital city).
-K. J. Bishop, The Etched City.
-Paula Volksy, Illusion.
-Simon R. Green, Guards of Haven and Swords of Haven.




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[info]retlor
2005-06-10 10:26 pm UTC (link)
I liked this rant a lot. I have to say, however, that you could have made more mention of how cities are built. I mean, what is one of the cliche 'city' images? Ruler-straight, grid-pattern paved roads, terraced buildings made all of stone, tall stone walls with NO buildings outside them indicating recent growth and everything seemingly built in a concentric circle pattern with none of the zones of disamenity that might be found in a primative settlement. Maybe I'm jumping the gun, though, and this will be in the second part.

Overall, though, I liked this rant as it touched on a subsect of fantasy that interests me and I hate the generic city cliche more than any other cliche in fantasy.

On another note: Is there any way to get hold of your 'Royalty of Wind, Fire and Clay trilogy? I would like to read them.

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[info]silenceleigh
2005-06-10 11:26 pm UTC (link)
I also think that building materials have to reflect what's plentiful around you. Wood, stone, bricks/adobe, what you build out of reflects what you have available to build with.

For instance, depending on how old your city is, you could have the older buildings made out of stone and the newer ones made out of wood, if, for instance, the nearby stone quarries played out fifty years ago. Or, to take Seattle as an example, you could have originally built out of wood, have most of the city burn down in a great fire, and rebuild using bricks.

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[info]jessara40k
2005-06-11 09:14 am UTC (link)
Here's another wistful request to get a chance to read the Orlath trilogy.

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(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2005-06-11 05:21 pm UTC

[info]limyaael
2005-06-11 05:15 pm UTC (link)
I actually haven't read many fantasy cities set up in grids. I've read many set up in spirals, or many where the alleys and the slums are the most-described features, so if there are any nice stone buildings, they sure didn't get mentioned in the story. I'd like to see a variety of architecture in any city. Dwelling on wooden hovels and dead-end alleys and so on isn't inherently any more realistic than dewelling on the paved roads and stone buildings (at least if they're in the part of town where people can afford such things). That's why thinking about the government and economy of the city will work wonders.

'Royalty of Wind, Fire, and Clay' was plagiarized and sent to an e-zine. I came to an agreement with the e-zine that let them run the novel under my own name, from March-June 2004. However, the e-zine, though still having free downloads of the current issue, recently decided to require people to pay for access to back issues. If you would like to know what e-zine it is, please e-mail me.

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(no subject) - [info]safewrite, 2005-06-12 01:41 pm UTC

[info]pico_the_great
2005-06-10 10:28 pm UTC (link)
Numbers two, six, and five, I've got, but number one has just restructured my capitol city entirely. For the better, mind you, though it definitely makes the city more vulnerable.

Number three: if the city can't go out anymore, it goes up, correct? How tall could a wooden building go up and still be plausible? Stone?

Number Six has just made me :] .

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[info]pico_the_great
2005-06-11 02:09 am UTC (link)
It just occurred to me: there's a book I've read called "King's Man and Thief" by one Christie Golden. Mediocre book, but I remember it because it was a study in the obvious, and an intro to city fantasy. And fleas were mentioned, though only in passing.

The characters were about half a dimension off from two.

Anyway. [/TWO CENTS.]

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[info]limyaael
2005-06-11 05:29 pm UTC (link)
If the city can't go out, it can go up, but, as you noted, a lot of fantasies won't have the tech, and maybe not the magic either, to make it plausible.

I think I'd be more interested in hearing about the barrier that supposedly keeps the city from expanding, though. If it's a wall, why wouldn't people build outside the wall? Even if raiders regularly came and the shanty towns were burned, poorer people would probably still build them. If the ground is rugged, people can still make adaptations, and most likely would. If the city's butting up against water, then they might expand in another direction, or build docks and stilted houses out across the water.

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[info]arian
2005-06-14 11:09 am UTC (link)
I live in Edinburgh and there are some moderately ancient stone buildings that are 9 or 10 stories high. I don't know if that's any help to you.
Our buildings like that are a little odd though as there are usually roads on either side, but because of the way the city is layered, one road is at the ground floor and the other could be level with the 5th or 6th floor.
It may be interesting/helpful to know that the most desirable flats were those in the middle. Ground level had too much noise/waste and the top floors had too many stairs for the wealthy.

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(no subject) - [info]pico_the_great, 2005-06-14 09:00 pm UTC

[info]eisoj5
2005-06-10 10:59 pm UTC (link)
I'm trying to decide just how plausible it would be to have city states in a country half the size of the US. Say, five of them.

...oh, wait. Greece had a ton of city-states, didn't it? *is shaky on world history*

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[info]eisoj5
2005-06-10 11:00 pm UTC (link)
[I really like the rant, of course :) ]

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[info]youraugustine
2005-06-10 11:11 pm UTC (link)
Italy also had quite a few. :) It'd depend largely on the tech-level, I think; I'd have difficulty crediting it with a society our tech-level or higher, but bump it back a few hundred years or so, and not so much.

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(no subject) - [info]sailor_tech, 2005-06-11 03:00 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]eisoj5, 2005-06-11 03:39 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2005-06-11 05:33 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]criada, 2005-06-11 11:24 pm UTC

[info]sabotabby
2005-06-11 04:05 am UTC (link)
Two bits of city lore on the interrelation of urban planning and politics:

1. Because they were afraid of a repeat of the Paris Commune, the French government widened all of the boulevards in Paris so that people couldn't set up barricades. That's why you have all of those big, lovely streets. Unfortunately, when the Nazis rolled their tanks in, it was impossible for people to...well, set up barricades. So one of the reasons France was so easy to occupy was because of the roads.

2. When to break your first rule: Toronto is actually built away from Lake Ontario, much to the chagrin of its modern residents. The reason for this is also historical apparently -- in 1866, a group of Fenians attacked nearby Fort Erie, and Toronto's city planners didn't want to make it any easier for them by putting anything important right near the lake. The result is that 140 years later you have a very oddly-shaped city and people still bickering about the waterfront.

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[info]l_clausewitz
2005-06-11 08:24 am UTC (link)
Hee hee hee. Points #1 through #6 are precisely what I've been working on in the last two years or so--what with the main culture in my main WIP having its primary activities concentrated in the cities. The city-dwellers may make up only one sixth of the population, but they're the people that matter.

Not to mention that they're true prophets of mercantilism. And, taking into account the fact that almost half the adult population had been in some sort of wartime sevice--mostly as mercenaries in neighboring kingdoms--they've got the saying that the most popular festivals around are riots and neighborhood brawls. Living in a growing city in the middle of a developing country is an excellent way to see social tensions at work :)

By the way, here's a funny link on the role of cities in regional/national development: http://www.zompist.com/jacobs.html --a well-thought-out summary of Jane Jacobs' monumental works on cities and regional economies. if nothing else, it's worth reading for the sake of the knowledge.

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[info]wanderingbhikkh
2005-06-11 10:24 am UTC (link)
Now that IS interesting. I'm going to take that to my Econ classes.

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(no subject) - [info]sailor_tech, 2005-06-11 12:14 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]l_clausewitz, 2005-06-11 01:43 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]sailor_tech, 2005-06-12 03:07 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]l_clausewitz, 2005-06-12 04:32 am UTC

[info]wanderingbhikkh
2005-06-11 09:55 am UTC (link)
Now I need to whip my own city (Atimden, where all the action of the book takes place...not a travelogue!) into shape. Points 4 and 5, especially.

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concerned citizens
[info]jhiday
2005-06-11 10:26 am UTC (link)
Never underestimate the havoc "concerned citizens" can wreak on the city's politics and on your plot. Especially if there are a dozen factions of them that have quite different views of what is "the good of the city".

Very good rant, by the way. Very useful advice for my will-never-quit-the-planning-stage story (which is entirely set in the main city of my world).

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Re: concerned citizens
[info]wanderingbhikkh
2005-06-11 10:31 am UTC (link)
I believe Terry Pratchett was working with that one. :D

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Re: concerned citizens - [info]limyaael, 2005-06-11 05:35 pm UTC

[info]reiknight
2005-06-11 11:50 am UTC (link)
Yay! I didn't commit any crimes, at least not with the three cities I've written about so far. (Tiakin, Melorin, and Gyllian). Normally, I commit every mistake whatsoever, ;D.
V. good rant, as usual! I'll be bookmarking this one for future reference!

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[info]wyvernfriend
2005-06-11 12:06 pm UTC (link)
I have to agree with the Terry Pratchett and Simon R Green city cops being well used to THEIR city! Two great series. (personally I think Simon R Green's Fantasy is underrated!)

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[info]chiyo_no_saru
2005-06-11 01:36 pm UTC (link)
Nice to hear some of the things in the city I was unsure of - namely restaurants, etc. So those are reasonable, then?

Also, for sewage - my city is built on a river, so obviously, that's fine in terms of water. Would it be an aqueduct sort of system, or...?

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[info]l_clausewitz
2005-06-11 01:59 pm UTC (link)
Not always. The Romans used aboveground aqueducts to convey clean water and underground sewers to carry storm water runoff, but some of the waste disposed beside the city streets (they were really open gutters) got carried along into the sewers. Most medieval cities operated on a similar principle. Actually it wasn't as bad in the medieval period as it was in the 18th and 19th centuries, when many cities grew really big without developing sophisticated sewage disposal systems. In London of the 1830s you really had to pick your step or risk carrying a load of horseshit into the cafe just across the street.

Oh, and don't forget that rivers, even though they can be a convenient way of disposing liquid waste, have their limits of how much waste they can take before they start getting...uh, well, you know how they get. Just ask any 18th-century Londoner about the smell of the Thames. In one word, they'd answer "Shit!"

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(no subject) - [info]chiyo_no_saru, 2005-06-11 02:10 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]l_clausewitz, 2005-06-11 03:07 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2005-06-11 05:36 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]sailor_tech, 2005-06-12 09:39 am UTC

[info]fourjacks
2005-06-11 05:09 pm UTC (link)
Nice, thought provoking info here. A few thoughts from my own research:

1) Regarding thieves breaking into windows. In ancient Athens, the common practice was for thieves to simply tunnel right through the walls. The houses were brick of course.

2) I think it was common in some ancient and medieval cities for there to be vegetable gardens and even barnyard livestock in the cities. Not enough to feed the entire population, though.

3) Regarding garbage removal, my impression is that there was usually a dump right outside the city.

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[info]limyaael
2005-06-11 10:00 pm UTC (link)
Thank you.

1) That would make sense. If a thief is hitting the houses of nobles who can afford magical protection, though, it would also make sense for things to be more difficult in a fantasy city. Or the nobles might keep guards specifically to patrol the streets and look for such tunneling.

2) I wouldn't be adverse to authors having gardens and some livestock if they described it, rather than just assuming that it was there. (And if the game's wild, like boar, then I would assume that it has to come from outside the city, unless some higher-class types keep a private hunting park). Here, I think most fantasy writers' unthinking ease with supermarkets and the like has done them a real disadvantage. They don't often have to think about the origin of food, so neither do their characters.

3) Why the prevalence of trash heaps in fantasy streets, then? Or people dumping chamberpots out windows? Once again, I would have no quarrel with a solution like a dump outside the city; it's just that the authors often give evidence that seems to speak otherwise.

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(no subject) - [info]sailor_tech, 2005-06-12 09:32 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]l_clausewitz, 2005-06-12 04:54 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]onyxflame, 2006-07-05 03:33 am UTC

[info]avrelia
2005-06-11 05:13 pm UTC (link)
Great rant.

Do people really write about cities without any water supply at all? /rethoric

Another thing I want to add about rivers – they are important means of transportation, cheap and easy. Oceans demand more skill and investment to get from here to there, but with rivers one has to just go with the flow (in one direction).

Which brings me to another point – cities are built for a reason – and the people who found actual cities had those reasons in mind and chose the place accordingly. There most usual reasons, in my opinion, were trade and defence (often going together) – hence there are cities built in the intersections of trade routes and on the high sides of the rivers, and so on…

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[info]limyaael
2005-06-11 10:06 pm UTC (link)
Rivers do demand less work, yes, but they also often lead to trade of goods that would be closer to hand. I would expect any city on a river to be less prosperous than an ocean-going city, because the ships would be able to bring rarer goods from farther away and so charge more for them. And, of course, a port city would have to be able to finance the construction of sea-going ships in the first place, which costs more money than outfitting a river boat, and so implies more money.

Fantasy reasons for founding cities sometimes baffle me. To support an academy, okay. But how did the academy get to be there in the first place without support from a village or town? To study an ancient ruin- but the people who live there would still need food and water, and it'd be easier, in the end, to have a more permanent settlement elsewhere and make field expeditions to study the ruin if it was in the middle of a desert with no convenient food or water.

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(no subject) - [info]ankewehner, 2005-06-12 12:15 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]megpie71, 2005-07-06 09:43 am UTC

[info]sparrow_wings
2005-06-11 05:18 pm UTC (link)
The floating city probably compresses and dries its sewage. After that they probably burn it... or maybe they could trade it to people down on the ground as fertilizer? Great rant, by the way; it helps, 'cause my stories are mostly set in cities.

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[info]limyaael
2005-06-11 10:07 pm UTC (link)
Wouldn't the ground cities have enough fertilizer of their own, though? Unless the garbage from the floating city was of a different kind...

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(no subject) - [info]ankewehner, 2005-06-12 12:16 pm UTC

[info]saadiira
2005-06-12 02:56 pm UTC (link)
Awesome rant. I've designed fantasy cities, so it's near and dear to the heart. Favored subject matter, in fact.

Something else to consider: Livestock beyond just chickens is possible. Goats may be kept in courtyards, etc., for milk, and meat., feeding off whatever scrub might be available.

Dogs/Cats/rats can be major nuissances. Dogs form packs. They can go rabid. Rats carry disease, and get into everything. Cats go feral, and can add to stink, and even disease. There might also be other wildlife, depending, such as raccoons, possums, squirrels, pigeons...

Too (And I think I went into this on another rant...) some industries may be banned from some parts of the city. Dyers working in wode, and tanners, for instance, may well be on the outskirts of the worst of the slums, because they STINK. Carders of wool may, as well, along with anything dealing with the dead...

-Dira-



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[info]caremel
2005-06-13 11:40 am UTC (link)
Lovely, lovely, lovely. I find your rant on cities particularly appropriate, as cities in fiction are frequently all wrong. As I live in a very big city, this is one of my pet peeves :). Another point is that many authors depict cities as very crowded without explaining why the city couldn't expand. They also don't say why things would appear in different locations which is very important. It is also essential to have different tyoes of architecture/building styles if the city is an old one to chronicle its expansion or just rebuilding. Great rant!
~Caremel

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A city or two to add to your list, and some trivia
[info]renakuzar
2005-06-13 03:13 pm UTC (link)
Lankmar as found in many Fritz Lieber stories is a great city that has much of what you would wish for. Also the city in Angel with the Sword (Alliance-Union Universe) by C. J. Cherryh is well constructed, especially regarding water.

things missing from the rant:

student rebellions in cities with large universities (began as early as mid 13th century in Paris)

"legitimization" of illicit trades in the smut district: Again, Paris had until recently streets with names such as:

rue Trousse-Puteyne
rue Grattecon
rue du Chapon
and just outside of the city a rue du Poil au Con

I'll leave the translation to others, incase minors who don't read French are reading this.

Now, people did live in ancient cities that they let fall to ruin. Rome is a good example of this. Why was it let fall to ruin? After being repeatedly sacked, there were not enough people living there to maintain much of it. In other words, it fell to ruin just because, while people continued to live in it. Most fine buildings became ruins, many of which were used to build new construction later as the city gradually recovered.

Also, empires sometimes did expand into new areas that were formerly occupied but abandoned by the time of imperial expansion. Thus ancient and abandoned cities lost in the jungles of India later found during the British empire.

Walt

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[info]fantomeq
2005-06-13 08:36 pm UTC (link)
I wanted to say I've been reading your rants and found them very orderly and helpful and a good way to troubleshoot my stories.

Also, I greatly enjoyed Sredni Vashtar. Thanks for the link!

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