Limyaael ([info]limyaael) wrote,
  • Mood: bitchy

Writing fantasy without villains

So. Just as in fantasy without magic, I believe it’s perfectly possible to achieve books without villains. Why? Because I’ve read them. Those books still have characters who act against each other, for different goals or at cross-purposes, but they lack “Mwa-ha-ha-ha!” villains, or the kind who get conquered by LOVE, or the kind who are completely insane, or the kind who take over the world because it’s sitting outside their door. They’re just characters. (Incidentally, those books often lack identifiable author-favored protagonists as well, or at least don’t turn their heroes into blank slates of shining light).

This is, then, just a list of ways of achieving the completely possible.



1) Have a reasonable main conflict. This translates into, “a conflict in which we are not being forced to cheer for one side, because of what will happen if they lose.” Even if the reader doesn’t particularly like one set of characters, he or she has to be able to grasp their motives and understand that, in this particular set of circumstances, it makes sense for these people to act this way. (See points 3 and 4).

This means that “Crazy guy who wants to take over the world vs. a whole bunch of people who don’t want him to” or “Overlord bent on genocide vs. the race he’s trying to slaughter” are automatically villain-laden. They’re going too strongly against the moral barometer of the vast majority of your audience. Even if the crazy guy or the overlord is a well-drawn, complex character, there’s the problem of that goal. He has to fit in the villain role, because there’s no other reasonable slot to put him in without a great deal of pushing and prodding and twisting the narrative. Variations on the second one—an overlord bent on oppressing all women, or a non-magic-user bent on slaughtering mages—are also right out. Beyond the steep slope of morality they’ll require your reader to climb, villains like this tend to slide into clichéd dialogue and reasoning that the most innocent readers know the counterarguments for quite easily. Or the author loses it, and blazons your proper readerly allegiance across the story’s sky by naming them Adolfo. (Really. That happened).

Some conflicts that have worked without producing villains:

-Sorcerer who destroyed a country’s art and culture and obliterated its name by magic because they killed his beloved younger son, vs. the rebels who are quite content to enslave mages in the name of freeing their country--Tigana.
-A woman who wants to protect her children and does it by murdering other children, vs. the man who blindly follows his honor to the detriment of all else--A Song of Ice and Fire (well, okay, that was one of about a hundred different conflicts in that series).
-A mage who summons up a fairy creature he can’t control out of fear and hurt pride, vs. a mage who grows too involved in his studies to notice what’s happening to his wife because of said fairy creature--Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrell.
-A mob boss/assassin/brothel-owner who has no problem casually killing people, vs. a large group of revolutionaries who have no problem with bringing down a system of Empire that magically guarantees civilization--Teckla.

The reasons behind the conflicts can themselves be tangled and ethical and muddy and hard to sort out. But, if that’s the case, it needs to be so for both sides. A conflict where one side is immediately identifiable as “good” and one as “bad” will not help the author to avoid producing a villain and a hero.

2) Integrate the character traits. This is to avoid what I call the “Hitler was an artist!” complex, where the writer grants the villain one good trait—usually an affinity for art, sometimes a soft spot for children, sometimes something else—and harps on it amid all the evil ones. We are supposed to pity or understand the villain because of it. Sometimes the author winds up tracing everything evil the villain’s ever done back to it, a la “If someone had told Hitler he was a good artist, he wouldn’t have committed genocide.”

This is a cheat, because it substitutes for depth, and because the villain is still a villain. Instead of explaining his actions, the author excuses her own. She’s made him a frustrated artist, what more do you want in the way of mixed characterization?

Well, actual mixed characterization would be nice. If you want a story without a villain, daubing someone with a spot of light amid darkness is not the way to achieve it. You have a hero who can kill to protect those he loves and kill in a cold-blooded rage, and one doesn’t excuse or invalidate the other; many authors get a fruitful source of tension out of such seesaws instead. So make the ‘villain’ such a character. He’s got pride, jealousy, a wonderful artistic talent, too much anger, a sense of humor, a disturbing tendency not to forgive his enemies, and an unexpected largess for people who help him. He’s to be contemplated as a whole, just like any protagonist that you have, not as a source of pity or as someone whose traits cancel each other out in the author’s handling of him.

He’s also lived his life.

3) Pay some attention to the damn environment. There’s been discussion of this before, how some fantasy worlds have apparently produced people transplanted from Earth, or from a far more ideal fantasy world, without a link to the family, home, journeys, and training the author says they’ve gone through. Connect your protagonists to their world, by all means. But don’t spend all your time and effort on just one person, or the others become shadows. Connect the ones who might play villain roles if you were letting them to their circumstances, too.

Perhaps you have a woman who, reared to be an obedient daughter and wife in a medieval-like environment, would have dutifully loved the man she was arranged to marry and borne him children. But it just so happens that her husband is the exact opposite of the traits she admires, and someone far closer to her has all those traits, and her arranged husband regularly disgraces herself and him while remaining in love with the bride of his youth, and there’s an ancient tradition in the (now deposed) line of former kings justifying incest. It might not be so surprising that that woman winds up sleeping with her brother and hating her arranged husband. I’m sure that people who have read the book in question can tell who I’m talking about. It’s a character that I happen to hate and wish would die. And the circumstances that bear down on her didn’t necessarily compel the incest. But she makes decisions that make sense in light of all of this, and then, once the incest has happened, she finds other justifications, because of what would happen to her if she didn’t, and she has to find some means of making sure that people don’t find out, and, and, and…

It’s very much harder to conceive of a character as Darkest Evil or Shining Light when you know something about their history and the constraints on their choices. The constraints are important, I think. Many fantasy protagonists are creatures of far more freedom than constraints, and this winds up producing people it’s difficult to identify with, because they overcome obstacles too easily and get hung up on smaller problems than afflict other characters in the story. The villains also have too much freedom, though in that case the freedom is oddly patchwork, as when the author makes up the one exception to the villain’s world-conquering power to justify why he hasn’t conquered the world quite yet.

It makes much more sense to spin a complicated, rooted, embedded, personal history. The people become citizens of the world. It lets you know more about the setting as well as them. And it moves them further and further away from the possible stock roles that await them. It’s much harder to stuff living, breathing characters into “villain” slots. Your audience might still hate them (I hate a number of them), but their actions, whether your reader judges them as evil, good, or neutral, will be their evil, good, or neutral actions, not those of a defined role.

4) The justifications have to stop being stupid. Subset of point 1, but even though you might set up a reasonable conflict, one character, when asked to explain why he’s standing on one side as opposed to the other, might have very stupid reasons for it. I’ve read some fantasies that would have been better if the author had simply left the reader to guess why the villain did what he did, even at the cost of him staying a villain. He was more of a shadowed, complex, possibly-real kind of a person when he kept his mouth shut than when he opened it and removed all depth.

Really stupid justifications:

-A woman/man wronged the character a long time ago, so he’s/she’s striking back at all persons of that gender.
-The character knows and admits the moral truth about the “right” side and what kind of consequences will come to him for opposing it, but persists in supporting the “wrong” one because he hates the “right” one. (This is the sort of thing that comes into play when people claim that atheists know God is right and the devil is real, but they keep on being atheists because they hate God. Not many people are stupid enough to hate something they don’t believe exists. Nor would it make much sense to oppose a God whom you knew was loving and would cast you into an eternal torment for opposing him. /end mini-rant)
-“Women/men/mages/non-mages/white-skinned people/dark-skinned people are obviously inferior because of X/Y/Z.” Once again, it’s a kind of argument that the great majority of your readers can tear holes in all by themselves, and it brands that character irrefutably a villain. It might be a natural outgrowth of your world, but it still makes villains at this point in reader/writer history. (And then, of course, there comes the problem of justifying why your heroes are so shiningly pure of sexism or racism, or why their sexism/racism is of the okay kind).

Good justifications:

-The same ones you’d use for your protagonists. Personal vengeance is, I think, overplayed and quite often questionable even when authors approve of it, but it’s understandable.
-Personal loyalty to that particular country/faction/people/group/religion. It helps if the author remembers, “There is no such thing as a just war.”
-A point of logic that something in the narrative or world does support. For this, you might want to use a conflict that started so long ago the two opposing sides long since carved out their justifications and piled up the evidence for each, and the real cause has been lost to history. Both sides will have committed atrocities, both sides will have set it up to make it look like they didn’t commit atrocities, and both sides will be mired too deeply to find an easy way out.

5) Include the possible villain in as many moods as possible. Not just highest deepest darkest dudgeon and despair. The former is often a case of the villain thinking he’s going to win, the last what happens when he realizes he’s going to lose. And he flips between them with little prompting, sometimes just one action.

Portray these characters laughing, playing, dancing, singing, making art, sorrowing over a lost friend, prodding at an old hurt like a dangling tooth, setting a plan into motion, snapping in irritation at an unwelcome intruder, blurting out an insult they didn’t mean to say, stumbling onto someone else’s sorrow and trying hesitantly to offer comfort, falling in love. Emotion works to make a character human/real. I think ordinary emotion, or understated emotion, works even better than the extremes. We’re all used to villains who shriek as they fall to their deaths, or laugh maniacally at what they believe to be a defeated enemy. Let’s see some who know how to share the smaller moments of life, too.

In fact, I believe this is valuable advice even for the heroes, who at their worst also tend to have “sparkling eyes” and “a glittering single tear.” Show the moments that you might not ordinarily think important to the story, and then make them important. And give a mood to every one.



Hmmm. This is at least half a rant on “how to write books without heroes.” But that’s all right, I suppose. If you’re giving up one, you can give up the other that much more easily.
Tags: characterization rants: villains, fantasy rants: summer 2005

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[info]a1viola

June 23 2005, 23:45:00 UTC 6 years ago

Can I still have Mr. Stalker Hermit?

[info]limyaael

June 25 2005, 00:27:34 UTC 6 years ago

Sure! Mr. Stalker Hermits for everyone!

[info]a1viola

6 years ago

[info]youraugustine

June 24 2005, 00:02:40 UTC 6 years ago

I've wound up with two, at least, stories with Dark Lord type villains, and what I've discovered in them is that they tend to become more forces of nature in regards to the reactions of others - which is interesting, in many ways, because I just finished Sebastian Heffner's Defying Hitler, which showed many of the same things in the real-life version - that it there was more akin to the massive destruction of a hurricane or a tornado or a drought or plague, than to a truly personal conflict.

And this entire rant makes me think of [info]klgaffney. In the "hey, I remember this bit" sort of way. ::g::

[info]limyaael

June 25 2005, 00:30:05 UTC 6 years ago

This is why, in some ways, Hitler is no longer a useful comparison: because people then model their villains after him in every apect. *grin*

Actually, I can see characters treating the villain as a natural force, or hating him because of the things he's inflicted on their lives, force-like or not. What really bugs the shit out of me is when the author is very obviously intriguing, through the narratorial voice, for me to hate him. I'm re-reading A Song for Arbonne right now for the first time in five years, and while I still love it, I am very irritated with Kay for the scenes in which Ademar and Galbert are Evil, Evil, Evil. In some ways I think they were the last of Kay's true villains, unless you count Ivarr, and I'm grateful for it. Those scenes feel pushy in comparison to the rest of the book.

[info]tavalya_ra

June 24 2005, 00:06:25 UTC 6 years ago

It's a character that I happen to hate and wish would die.

Woohoo! God, I hate her, too, despite how much I like her brother. And her other brother- I want to give him a hug and then help him kill a few people.

-A woman/man wronged the character a long time ago, so he's/she's striking back at all persons of that gender.

Yeah, that is really dumb. By that logic, just about everybody on the planet should hate everybody of the opposite gender or even his or her own gender.

My stories have definite villains, yet I'm trying to do a lot of what you've mentioned with most of them. (Most of the minor ones it is beyond the scope of the story to explore with such depth, but the major ones? I definitely want the reader to have points of sympathy. And I don't mind them having points of contention with my protagonists, either.) So, despite that I don't have a "villain-less" story, I found this rant useful.

[info]a1viola

June 24 2005, 00:17:37 UTC 6 years ago

Definitely! I LOVE forcing the reader to sympathize with my antagonist, and I also like to make the antagonist look the part of the typical villain first. I'm not nice.

And yes, by the whole someone wronged me thing, the whole world should be suffering from anti-social personality disorder.

Yes, I do talk a lot.

[info]tavalya_ra

6 years ago

[info]limyaael

6 years ago

[info]tavalya_ra

6 years ago

[info]duckmole86

6 years ago

[info]a1viola

June 24 2005, 00:14:16 UTC 6 years ago

#2, Raistlin Majere was ALWAYS kind to kender and gully dwarves which is made obvious, but he's also given other redeeming traits, which are subtle and hard to find.

Regarding them all, if you know you are going to be writing a series, you can expand it by a book or two. Write one of the books where the antagonist of the series is the protagonist (this does not necessarily make him a good guy, he could be a villain and still be written as a protagonist) and shed light on all of his traits-good, bad, and inbetween. If you don't go deep into the protagonist of the series on a regular basis, you can do this for him/her also. Just a thought.

#4, Or, you could make the hero agree with the villain, but end up aiding the cause anyway, b/c he has a problem w/ the villain (i.e. villain: killed his father, bullied him as a child, cast a spell upon him that stole his verility or made it so he danced ballet 24/7 for a year, ooh, I like that one, maybe I can incorporate it somehow with Mr. Stalker Hermit, probably not...). Okay, I've already admitted I'm weird so stop looking at the screen like that! As for the last good justification, I have a story like that! Its really fun, b/c they're ignoring their gods who keep telling them to stop being such idiots and make peace already. Unfortunately, their the kind of gods who allow that pesky free will thing... Sometimes its hard to tell who's the more moronic, stupid mortals or the gods who made them that way...

I like ellipses...

#5: What if they are a gemini?

[info]tavalya_ra

June 24 2005, 18:16:11 UTC 6 years ago

Regarding them all, if you know you are going to be writing a series, you can expand it by a book or two. Write one of the books where the antagonist of the series is the protagonist (this does not necessarily make him a good guy, he could be a villain and still be written as a protagonist) and shed light on all of his traits-good, bad, and inbetween. If you don't go deep into the protagonist of the series on a regular basis, you can do this for him/her also. Just a thought.

A good chunk of the last book of my series is in the villain's POV. In fact, he might get the most page time just because he's the one with the most stuff happening to him. I look forward to sitting in his head for long streatches of writing.

[info]limyaael

6 years ago

[info]a1viola

6 years ago

[info]mindelemental

June 24 2005, 00:18:43 UTC 6 years ago

Go, Cersei!

Would you consider her a villain(ess), then?

And what about Lord Tywin himself? Would you consider him a "villain", or just another character who, like so many of Martin's, is neither a villain nor a hero?

[info]goldjadeocean

June 24 2005, 01:17:33 UTC 6 years ago

...Martin has villains?

I can think of maybe one. And she'll probably only be a villain until he gives her a viewpoint chapter.

[info]bneuensc

6 years ago

[info]raanab

6 years ago

[info]duckmole86

6 years ago

[info]bneuensc

6 years ago

[info]limyaael

6 years ago

[info]aki_san

6 years ago

[info]tavalya_ra

6 years ago

[info]limyaael

6 years ago

[info]kriz1818

June 24 2005, 01:42:34 UTC 6 years ago

Well. You've set my mind at ease about the Sweeping Epic Thing that's on one of the back burners - one of the things I've been looking for in it is a Villain, but no, I don't really need one, do I? The rather large cast is producing enought conflict all on its own, without anyone being a definite villain (or hero, really). Cool.

[info]hieronymousb

June 24 2005, 03:44:37 UTC 6 years ago

"Perhaps you have a woman who, reared to be an obedient daughter and wife in a medieval-like environment, would have dutifully loved the man she was arranged to marry and borne him children. But it just so happens that her husband is the exact opposite of the traits she admires, and someone far closer to her has all those traits, and her arranged husband regularly disgraces herself and him while remaining in love with the bride of his youth, and there’s an ancient tradition in the (now deposed) line of former kings justifying incest. It might not be so surprising that that woman winds up sleeping with her brother and hating her arranged husband. I’m sure that people who have read the book in question can tell who I’m talking about. It’s a character that I happen to hate and wish would die. And the circumstances that bear down on her didn’t necessarily compel the incest. But she makes decisions that make sense in light of all of this, and then, once the incest has happened, she finds other justifications, because of what would happen to her if she didn’t, and she has to find some means of making sure that people don’t find out, and, and, and…"

Cersei, indeed.

I can't entirely agree with people who say that Martin has NO "villains" and "good guys". Martin's characters are, for the most part, very grey, but Joffrey, Gregor, the slave owners that Dany dealt with (Kraznys mo Nakloz, wasn't that his name?) the Others, maybe some of Gregor's servants and the Kingsguard, and I'd really have to say Viserys--have pretty much no redeeming qualities.

[info]aki_san

June 24 2005, 16:35:05 UTC 6 years ago

I think some of those characters can be thought of as an "incest makes your offspring CRAZY" kind of thing.

Personally, I can't really say that Viserys had no redeeming qualities. He taught Dany all she knows about Westros (even if she did get the "cleaned-up" version) and is one of the driving forces behind her wanting to reclaim their kingdom. She's got to be the "last dragon" for him.

Why would you say that the Kingsguard has no redeeming qualities? As a body in general or specifically which Kingsguard?

[info]bneuensc

6 years ago

[info]bneuensc

6 years ago

[info]tavalya_ra

6 years ago

[info]limyaael

6 years ago

[info]beccastareyes

June 24 2005, 03:48:59 UTC 6 years ago

I'm just reminded of my portrayal of two of my characters in my webcomic (which is going to become a NaNo project, I think.) -- they started out as two cardboard villains, and ended up as at least one antagonist-not-villain (the other one is sitll probably up there, just by level of fanaticism, but I take delight in knowing that he is also the character who is the msot right about the situation). Delwyn started out (Winter '02) as a character that wanted magic and would do anything (including harming children) to get it and evolved to a man who wanted to free the country he rules from a group of magic-draining spirits, and is troubled by the means of doing so (it still needs to be done, but that doesn't mean it's going to be easy).

I think people are afraid to delve into their villains. It's easy to write a cardboard villain. Harder to create a real person and say 'This man is EVIL!'

[info]lyorn

June 24 2005, 08:53:09 UTC 6 years ago

they started out as two cardboard villains, and ended up as at least one antagonist-not-villain

Reminds me of a role playing game that I once played in. The GM was big on logic and motivations, which meant that even his undead life-sucking fiends were people you could talk to and come to a compromise with. Which led the campaign theme from "clearing the area of monsters" neatly to "build a country from scratch".

[info]l_clausewitz

June 24 2005, 04:06:50 UTC 6 years ago

Isn't it easier to write a story without a villain? As for myself, I'm always stumped whenever I have to write about a character who lacks a detailed personality and personal history--and it's just impossible to fit those two traits with a predesignated story role. Been reading too much Schiller, I guess.

[info]limyaael

June 25 2005, 00:41:15 UTC 6 years ago

Probably not, because the most well-known example (Tolkien) did have a Dark Lord who wanted to conquer the world. That he also had other details in the set-up tends to fuzz when someone writes a purely imitative fantasy.

[info]bneuensc

June 24 2005, 04:36:11 UTC 6 years ago

I seem nearly incapable of writing fantasy with villains. In the novel I'm writing right now, the antagonists are motivated by a combination of religious dogmatism and fear of change. From their point of view, what they're doing is right, because what the heroes want to do a) contradicts a deeply-held religious truth and b) will probably result in large amounts of potentially-damaging social upheaval. None of them could be described as "evil."

Even when I've tried to write villains, the buggers usually end up becoming sympathetic somehow -- except for the one who dehumanized himself into more of a force of nature than a person.

I think it links to the fact that I pretty much never include archetypal concepts of Good and Evil in my books. If all of the characters are just people, rather than representations of abstract moral sides, their behavior's rarely going to be clear-cut.

[info]a1viola

June 24 2005, 04:56:21 UTC 6 years ago

Thats o.k., I have an antagonist who anyone would hate, but you can't really call a villain since he was bullied into becoming what he is, its a long, long story, but the dude has reasons...

[info]bneuensc

6 years ago

[info]bain_drenal

June 24 2005, 07:23:57 UTC 6 years ago

Awww, but I like Cersei. Don't ask me why, though... Actually, less to do with her and more to do with her brothers, I think.

I love Martin as far as the no villains thing goes, because he really showed me that it works. Jaime is the perfect example for me because I honestly expected to hate him, especially after the whole window thing. Now, though...

This rant is really helpful for me right now because I'm working on a story without a villain. Something thing that works really well for me is to have several decisions made by different characters build up to cause a problem - not because they meant to, but because they couldn't help it. This means that no one person is the bad guy because if each of the other characters hadn't made the decision they did, nothing bad would have happened.

[info]limyaael

June 25 2005, 00:44:56 UTC 6 years ago

I think Cersei is amusing. I don't really like her, but I think she's an effective ineffective character.

[info]blunder_buss

June 24 2005, 08:09:40 UTC 6 years ago

Hmm. Since the main villian in my fandom is driven to destroy humans by a insanity-inducing virus, I guess I can't do this. But ~ I could do it when creating my own mini-villians. I rather like stories that have characters acting for their own reasons, instead of having a 'good' or 'bad' side to root for. Then the reader has the added conflict of not knowing who to root for, because if Character A succeeds then Character B will be defeated/killed. Wah! D:

[info]wanderingbhikkh

June 25 2005, 06:13:05 UTC 6 years ago

Your avatar amuses the hell out of me.

[info]zekk_skywalk

June 24 2005, 11:53:27 UTC 6 years ago

I'm gonna have to save this one. One of my stories has a protagonist who is also a bit of a villain, and an antagonist who's really something of a hero...really, there's no clear hero or villain. Based off of ideas in Japanese history, the protagonist is, when faced with an overall view that shows he will need to keep his country strong is forced to defend his country against a rebellion of soldiers who are on a moral crusade; the soldier's leader wishes to destroy the current government so a different overall philosophy will reign supreme; the protagonist fights against him, despite the fact that morally, he agrees, but situations dictate that he has to surpress this rebellion or his country will face worse possibilities...its fun and interesting to play with ^^ There's no real right or wrong in this, nor good or evil...just differences in views, opinions, and choices...

[info]wanderingbhikkh

June 25 2005, 06:12:45 UTC 6 years ago

Lemme guess, looking at the Meiji Revolution?

Incidentally, *cooooooool*. Keep me informed.

[info]silverwerecat

June 24 2005, 13:03:50 UTC 6 years ago

Heh, thank you or this. Made me realize that my "Dragondust" fits right into this category.

It makes sense, really. All people are what I call "shades of grey". And I believe that cats can teach us a lot on this. Cats are neither good or evil. They are just cats.

Portray these characters laughing, playing, dancing, singing, making art, sorrowing over a lost friend, prodding at an old hurt like a dangling tooth, setting a plan into motion, snapping in irritation at an unwelcome intruder, blurting out an insult they didn't mean to say, stumbling onto someone else's sorrow and trying hesitantly to offer comfort, falling in love.

That made me smile, because I just did exactly that: sorrowing over a lost friend.

Shameless spam: If you have the mood and time for reading, I've updated "Dragondust".

[info]angelan

June 24 2005, 13:44:07 UTC 6 years ago

I had to stop reading this halfway through because I'm afraid of ASOIAF spoilers. I've read to the end of the first book, so can anyone tell me if the rant spoils anything after that?

I like a fantasy without villains, though I'm hopeless at writing it - my story tends to meander around aimlessly until October 1st, and then I shut my laptop, stop writing and go back to my normal, non-author life ;).

[info]limyaael

June 25 2005, 00:45:28 UTC 6 years ago

The rant doesn't spoil anything after the first book, I think. I did that deliberately. Some of the comments might, though.

[info]sanguine_paia

June 24 2005, 14:12:37 UTC 6 years ago

*lurves George R.R. Martin* The good thing about A Song of Ice and Fire is that people are only bad from a certain point of view. there aren't any good people or bad people; they're just human.

[info]mr_mitts

June 24 2005, 14:51:48 UTC 6 years ago

It helps if the author remembers, “There is no such thing as a just war.”

Although it helps if the characters forget.

[info]limyaael

June 25 2005, 00:46:21 UTC 6 years ago

True, but when the author forgets, that's when you get obnoxious narratorial details like "his evil cackling laugh" and long speeches about how good the defending country is. Kay, much as I love him, is doing that A Song for Arbonne right now, and it's a bit much.

[info]mr_mitts

6 years ago

[info]kdorian

June 25 2005, 00:44:32 UTC 6 years ago

This helps

Since I'm working on world-building right now for a story where I'm going to try pulling off having the same character be both the hero and the villain; I'm not sure I'll pull it off, but I'm going to try.

[info]thedeadqueen

July 24 2005, 15:10:40 UTC 6 years ago

Re: This helps

That sounds interesting. How does it work? Do the people around him see him/her as both villain and hero, or is s/he a villain who sees him/herself as a hero, or something else I haven't thought of?

[info]kdorian

6 years ago

[info]kdorian

6 years ago

[info]wanderingbhikkh

June 25 2005, 06:11:10 UTC 6 years ago

This is helping me with my book, where the central conflict is between two close friends, originally modeled on the Javert/Valjean relationship. Other things great literature does for you: It makes ID'ing bad guys more difficult. Is the Phantom a villain? Javert? How about Hector, MacDougal or Tsao Tsao?

Very hard question, despite that all of them are cast in the villain role (MacDougal possibly excepted due to the miasma of oddity around MacBeth generally). Each of them has his reasons for his actions, and each of them is the hero in his own mind...and that comes out.

I guess that's the important part. That each and every character is the hero of his own story. Villains included.

[info]mindelemental

June 26 2005, 00:34:35 UTC 6 years ago

I've only read part of the Three Kingdoms novels, but from what I have read, and from what else I've picked up about the history and the subsequent fictional interpretations, Cao Cao/T'sao T'sao is crying out to be made the pragmatic, intelligent hero of a revisionist version of the story.

(With Liu Bei as Lawful Stupid, natch.)

[info]slimshadowen

July 9 2005, 04:22:49 UTC 6 years ago

I had a realization today.

To make my antagonist more believable and indeed likeable, I made him in his heart a good person.

He rises to power. He outlaws slavery. He removes the various churches from having any direct political influence, but allows people to practice their faith openly and without fear. He emancipates the sexes from gender roles. He declares, to a traditionally xenophobic and smugly superior society, that other races are at least people and not animals, if not precisely equal. Okay, yeah, he sleeps with his sister, but since first cousins having kids in his society isn't frowned upon, he wouldn't be looked on as being too much [more] of a weirdo--assuming anyone even found out she was his sister.

And then woefully misinformed and manipulated by forces beyond his ken, he embarks on a war of genocide.

It's the little things that get ya, you know?

[info]duckmole86

July 15 2005, 04:54:03 UTC 6 years ago

Just a comment on the Hitler thing... I don't remember where I read this, (sad, seeing as I actually quoted it in my senior paper), but he was an excellent storyteller. I mean, he had to be, to convince so many good, moral people that wrong was right. I mean, tell me, if someone said right out, "If we kill all these people, life's going to be perfect... not to mention I hate the buggers because my dad was abusive and I blame that on his being part that race" that he's not going to be permanently placed in the loony bin. Instead he retold the stories that had been circulating for hundreds of years, making innocent people into villains. I still hate the guy, but despite that fact, I have to admit that he was a sharding excellent storyteller. Now, if he had only put it to use in a good way...

Learn from real life.

[info]duckmole86

July 15 2005, 05:13:56 UTC 6 years ago

Oh, and it was an excellent rant, Limyaael.

I actually mentioned in a review of a book that I read earlier this year (I think it was that collaboration between Anne McCaffrey and her son) that had they not included a villain, it would have been just as good, not to mention considerably refreshing. The one by the son alone was even better... no true villain at all. Of course, the main character's name should have been Mariana Suzette or some such (artist-healer-friend to everybody-beauty-harper-hearer of all dragons-dead family-lost my dragon but must go on Sue (am I forgetting something?)), and her boyfriend wasn't much better(handsome-harper-healer-brain), but the plot was otherwise decent. Hmmm... Maybe I won't read the next one he puts out.

Gee, I steal threads a lot.

[info]thedeadqueen

July 24 2005, 14:50:13 UTC 6 years ago

varis

A lot of these comments make sense even if the story has villains. In fact, I think that if you followed all these suggestions, you would still have villains--believable ones. Perhaps this rant is really about how to make villains who are real people, not paper cutouts?

Ever read The Wolf of Winter? Varis is a great villain. You watch him scheme and kill and eventually go insane from too much power, but the entire time you sympathize with him utterly, and feel devastated when he loses his memory and becomes a subhuman "spifflicate."

[info]thedeadqueen

July 24 2005, 15:04:50 UTC 6 years ago

several types of villains

...what about antagonists who truly believe that they're doing the right thing, because of self-deception? That is, what they're really doing of course is entirely self-serving, but they can easily come up with reasons why their actions are The Right Thing to Do, and they actually believe those reasons.

Or what about just ordinary, good-ish people who latch onto some evil idea and before they know it, they're either perpetrating genocide or looking the other way while it's being committed? These villains aren't modeled after Hitler, but after the German citizens who supported him or did nothing to stop him. What I don't understand is why fantasy villains always focus on the Hitler-caliber, extreme villain when the banality of evil is more abundant and just as disturbing...

Either way, a great deal of self-deception is involved. Even when people really want to do the right thing, it's so easy to make it seem like doing what you *really* want to do is right. Idealogues know this, of course, and can take advantage of it.

Maybe an interesting villain would be a con man/idealogue who manages to convince people to go along with his *evil* ideas, who understands self-deception completely, (because?)he does it himself...

...Of course, none of this is particularly fantasy-oriented. But maybe fantasy could do with a touch more realism...

[info]thedeadqueen

July 24 2005, 15:08:43 UTC 6 years ago

stupid Dungeons and Dragons alignment system

I've been playing Dungeons and Dragons a lot recently, and what bothers me most about it is the alignment system. Good and evil are physical entities, forces of nature. You're either good or you're evil. If you're evil, your motivation is to hurt people. How can you create a realistic or sympathetic villain this way? How can you have ambiguity/shades of gray?

I'm struggling to work around this and actually create an interesting story, but I think I'm doomed, because so far all I've created is a mirror for my own neuroses...

[info]sligking

October 5 2005, 20:38:10 UTC 6 years ago

Re: stupid Dungeons and Dragons alignment system

I don't think it's really that cut and dry. Besides the fact that you have neutral alignments to, their are times when opposing people aren't necessarily good vs. evil. In the old planescape campiagn, Asuras and Angels fought all the time because they disagreed on what was best for others, each thought the other was horribly wrong when both.
In the books it defines Evil as thinking of yourself, then people you actually like, then fuck everyone else, they don't matter. Evil in D&D terms I always took as no restraint. They might have downright admirable intentions, they just don't care that it hurts a certain group or something.

[info]ana_beachcombe

February 12 2006, 13:32:09 UTC 6 years ago

My villain's motivation is that she wants to wipe out the entire race of people that the story concerns (sentient rodents), partly for revenge over something they did to her in the past, but mostly because their existence sustains her own, and if they were all to die then she could die too (which she longs to do because her life is a living hell). Basically, her plan is one very elaborate suicide mission.
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