Limyaael ([info]limyaael) wrote,
@ 2005-08-24 21:47:00
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Current mood: grumpy
Entry tags:character type rants, fantasy rants: summer 2005, rants on power dynamics

Beings of extreme power rant
I apologize for the simplicity of this rant. However, I think a large number of mistakes that people make in handling BOEP’s (Beings of Extreme Power—and no, do not ask me how to pronounce that acronym) happen not because the topic is so difficult, but because authors start out with a number of assumptions and attitudes that condition the background of their fantasy worlds, and thus their writing.

*Limyaael beats people about the head with fish*

When you write fantasy, there is no law that says any particular attitude needs to stay the same, and that includes attitudes about power. Sure, they can be the same if you want them to be, or if that will make for a better story. But don’t just assume they have to be. A great deal of “truth” about BOEP’s is cliché, not natural law.



1) Who can oppose them? Why, their equals, of course. I’ve seen a lot of discussion of BOEP’s that goes, “Well, but I can’t have a god/a demigod/an artist able to create whole universes/Corwin of Amber in my story! That means that he’d have no competition and solve all the plot conflicts in one second flat!”

I’ve got more than one problem with that (see point 4), but the question I always have the impulse to ask is: Aren’t there going to be other gods/demigods/artists who are able to create whole universes/Princes of Amber in your story?

And, often enough, the answer goes something like: “No, because this character is the only one with that talent/the most powerful mage or best fighter in the world/the last survivor of his race!”

And I say: Ah-ha. We have an overattachment to the protagonist going on again. The author can’t bear for him to have any competition, so naturally he doesn’t. And that leaves you with the problem of why he wouldn’t just snap his fingers and restore peace and love and happiness to everyone around him?

Really, why does this escape so many authors’ attention? You’ve got a dragon who can fly and breathe fire and work lightning magic. Put him among other dragons who can also fly and breathe fire and work lightning magic. “Problem” solved. Probably you’ll be writing a different story than you envisioned at first, but it still has plenty of potential for excitement and high drama and even explosions, if you like that sort of thing. And it forces you to deal with the issues of power in a community, rather than isolation. And it also means you will not be writing a “last survivor of a magical race” story, which I hate with a deep and burning passion and which I would bury in the garbage pit where I dropped the soulmate bond’s corpse if I could get hold of it. The damn thing runs fast.

Why is the protagonist isolated in having such power? Ask yourself why, challenge the answers, and ask if you can keep yourself from turning it into a story of the protagonist brooding, lonely and angsting and bewailing his solitude, on his power. If not, add a few equals for him and see what happens.

2) Challenge the definitions. Why can’t gods be in a fantasy novel? Because they’re omnipotent.

Why?

Honestly, this is just blindness. There have been plenty of gods in plenty of Earth pantheons who were not omnipotent, or who were stupid, or who could be foiled by relatively simple stratagems, especially if another god was playing the trick. Yet for many authors, the concept of “God” is linked to omnipotence and omniscience so strongly that they won’t dare have a god as a main character. How very silly. There’s nothing that says a god in a fantasy world has to have the (supposed) attributes of the Christian God.

Two quick examples of ways to solve this: Terry Pratchett has small gods, which have the potential to become greater gods or decline into voices crying in the wilderness. They live and die like other beings, and are only immortal as long as they are believed in. And Steven Brust’s world possesses gods with a few major attributes—for example, being in two places at the same time—that differentiate them from the undead, demons, other BOEP’s called the Jenoine, and the strong, if mortal, cast of heroes. They are not omnipotent, either, and so far from omniscient that it’s laughable. Because both those authors give gods a defined place in the world, they’re not loosing omnipotent, omniscient plot devices into the story. They’re loosing BOEP’s who can screw up in various ways and even get destroyed.

What does “god” mean in your world, anyway? What does “mage” mean, or “sorcerer,” or “demigod?” Examine the BOEP’s. There’s nothing that says the only acceptable definition for a BOEP is unlimited power. They might be quite strong, even invincible, in a certain niche, and exist with varying degrees of competency outside it. They can still be quite scary like that.

3) “Absolute power corrupts absolutely” is not an absolute truth. And it’s not recognized as a cliché, either, the way that statements like “Let’s all just get along!” often are, so that authors insert eye-rolling into a story when the character says it. This one is taken at face value, as an unquestioned part of the world. The story’s characters don’t bother to say it; they just nod wisely when they put someone into absolute power and then he starts acting in a disgusting fashion.

Such a cheat. If absolute power is such a bad thing, then why are the protagonists fit to become kings and queens and governors and powerful mages and even gods? Why would they want the job, when it inevitably corrupts those who come into contact with it? You’d think they’d be more horrified by the thought of losing their souls than they act.

It’s because most authors recognize another statement, one which is not an absolute truth, either, and yet, I think, closer to it. No one situation will affect everyone in the same way. People grieve in broadly similar ways, but the individual details differ. Some people break under extreme horrors like torture and concentration camps, but some do not, and even those people who break do so in different ways. And some people in power will lose it completely, and others will become frivolous but harmless, and some will act only in minor ways because they fear what they could become if they let all their power loose, and some will become revered and rightly so.

There is no reason that a BOEP in your story has to become a megalomaniac. If you really want her to survive in a position of absolute power, then show why it doesn’t corrupt her. (I wish the showing was not required, but, as I noted, that cliché has become so embedded in people’s minds that they’ll notice if the mention of corruption is never raised).

Difficult? Sure, it could be, depending on your reasons for giving her the power in the first place, and the reason why she doesn’t become corrupted. But it’s a fuck of a lot more honest than just assuming the cliché is true, or true except when it applies to your characters.

4) What reason does he/she have to solve the plot conflicts? When someone speaks about a BOEP acting as a plot device, or, worse, uses one as a plot device without thinking about it, they often assume that the BOEP shares the protagonist’s goals, or at least the author’s vision of the plot. It’s a magnified version of the same question that asks, “Well, if the king has the money to raze all the slums and build proper housing, why isn’t he doing it?”

Maybe because he doesn’t want to?

Personal will, personal morals, rules that the BOEP chooses to honor even if he doesn’t have to, bargains, and so on can all restrict someone. And no, they don’t have to be silly or outmoded restrictions, either. A BOEP is going to have many fewer chains on his will and freedom than most other people in the story’s world, right? So why not have him follow his choices, and work up a plot that benefits from those choices, rather than force him into slavishly following the plot by stupid contrivance?

Maybe the dragon doesn’t breathe fire out on the heroes because he’s curious about what they’re doing in his lair. On the other hand, he finds their story of war between human nations laughable and contemptible, and no, he isn’t going to just swoop in and solve the main plot conflict like that. Why should he? There doesn’t have to be some Dragons’ Code that will punish him if he interferes, the way that there is in so many stories (and which is stupid, since he winds up breaking the Code anyway, just like every other noble character following a “higher” principle). He could just not have anything to do with humans, and no interest in interfering, and no susceptibility to anything the mortals could offer him. Or maybe he has moral objections to roasting a thousand men in armor on one kingdom’s say-so, never mind how many women and children the invaders killed.

I suspect that the refusal to give BOEP’s inner hindrances and barriers to the sheer exercise of their power, like moral codes, is a hidden corollary of Point 3: so many BOEP’s are assumed to be corrupt already, somehow made evil by what they are, that the author just decides that they don’t have any morals to obey. I really tire of these assumptions, as they are Stupid. Quit it, and write me a reasonable story.

5) What would you do if you had extreme power? I bet it wouldn’t be conquer the world, or even enforce world peace—not for everyone reading this. Some people would laze around for the rest of their lives. Some people would use their power to acquire money and pour it into great philanthropy projects. Some people would study everything under the sun. Some people would become great artists and create artworks of dazzling complexity. Some people would teach. Some people would go hunting for the answers to mysteries that had plagued them all their lives.

With a BOEP, you have the chance at a free character. Most BOEP’s don’t have to worry about the day-to-day struggle to survive, nor about caring for themselves, nor about their health. That doesn’t mean that they’ll turn naturally to politics. Plenty of people do that who aren’t BOEP’s. A free character’s personality has the chance to transform and flower in ways that are impossible for someone chained by all the daily necessities of existing in most fantasy worlds. It might be a fascinating journey to go along and watch that flowering happen.

And yes, by the way, I do believe that immortal and long-lived characters—which most BOEP’s are—can escape the trap of endless ennui and envy for mortals that most authors chain them in. It’s a function of one type of personality to become bored by endless freedom and start longing for a more structured life. It doesn’t mean that structured life is preferable, particularly for someone who’s never been in contact with the reality of it. (I’ve met plenty of people who long for life “in the Middle Ages,” for example, without one idea of the work that it took just to survive in the Middle Ages). And, once again—heya, Point 3!—it doesn’t mean that every BOEP in existence would do this. Their personalities could turn in any direction.

The idea of variations on the “normal,” of personality types that don’t obey all the fictional clichés, seems to frighten many fantasy authors. I have no clue why, given that most fantasies concentrate on characters who are unique or at least extraordinary. I’ve seen plenty of world-conquering BOEP’s, and decadent BOEP’s who all envy humans and want to die or live their lives like humans. Why should every BOEP in existence have to obey those “laws,” though?

6) Power doesn’t particularly preclude pettiness. This is the other side of the coin of 4. Yes, technically I could have put this point right after that one. But I didn’t want to.

BOEP’s could be wrong. They could act in honest faith and still make mistakes. Once again, there’s no need to attach omniscience to a BOEP unless you really want to.

But perhaps there’s not much chance of the BOEP being wrong, you argue, because he has a really awesome spy network and a means of spying on people in their dreams. There’re always his biases. I have ignored things that other people saw as obvious because of my innate prejudices, and I’ve seen people stubbornly ignore things that seemed obvious or commonsensical to me all the time. (Why do you think I started writing these rants?) A long life could lead to clear sight. It doesn’t have to. It could lead to the BOEP being truly set in his ways, and receiving all the information to put things together in the “right” patterns, and setting them in the wrong ones anyway because, damn it, that’s what makes sense.

I could go on for a while, but I’m sure you see where I’m coming from. Dig up the damn unquestioned assumptions that run everywhere when writing BOEP’s. Let’s say that your character has extreme power because of his weather magic. But the magic is magic. It is not perfect knowledge; it is not perfect foresight; it is not the power to change everything in the world with a wave of his hand. Your BOEP is not any of those by nature unless you say he is. No, I don’t care what a thousand clumsy handlings of them have told you. Your character can summon lightning with a wave of his hand, and still die because he never saw his enemy coming, or underestimated someone he trusted.



This is not hard, not really. What makes it so is that damn network of assumptions that make people think previous authors have explored all possible ways of writing BOEP’s and that cliché is law, instead of both of them being a set of suggestions.

This is freedom. This is power. Both can be taken and used as wisely as any magic you give your characters.




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[info]youraugustine
2005-08-25 02:02 am UTC (link)
1) Who can oppose them? Why, their equals, of course.

See firstgens. ::g:: In fact, see precise reason why the balance of them is so important within the context of the book - the balance starts getting out of proportion the wrong way . . . .

For point two - eh, I tend to have exactly the OPPOSITE problem with so-called-gods in fantasy literature: they're not gods, they're just extremely powerful people, which changes every dynamic and makes my own brain rebel at the tag "god" being applied to them. If I can understand them and think them petty, they're not gods. WL is going to be my weaving-ground for such concepts, tho.

3) “Absolute power corrupts absolutely” is not an absolute truth.

Thank you, yes.

4) What reason does he/she have to solve the plot conflicts?

LA is fun for this one - yes, the dragons probably COULD break the elvenlord bloc and empire on Erde and set all the humans free. They aren't gonna. This game? It's so much more FUN.

Not human intelligences, not human motives. On the other hand, the game works better with willing pieces, so they treat their employees reasonably well.

6) Power doesn’t particularly preclude pettiness.

No indeed. People are as much people with teh Grate Powar and a million years behind them as they are at twenty on the street. ::sighs:: I get to write this aspect ripping a bunch of people to shreds. Not fun.

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[info]rhjunior
2005-08-25 06:49 pm UTC (link)
4) What reason does he/she have to solve the plot conflicts?

I dunno, that one itself seems like an awful common cliche itself--- desperate heros seek out BOEP to beg for his/her/its help, BOEP announces "what interest have I in your petty mortal needs?" (or words to that effect) and sends the supplicants on their way (of course changing their tone in the next chapter if not sooner, and riding to the rescue anyway.)

I think the real trick is finding an explanation for why the BOEP doesn't intervene in other people's affairs that doesn't sound trite or cliche'd. Not every BOEP is going to become a megalomaniac; then again, not every BOEP is going to have a hackneyed excuse for not getting involved.

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[info]youraugustine
2005-08-25 06:52 pm UTC (link)
(of course changing their tone in the next chapter if not sooner, and riding to the rescue anyway.)

::dry:: There'd be your cliche buster right there - when mine say that kind of thing, they DON'T change their tone in the next chapter.

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[info]limyaael
2005-08-26 02:06 am UTC (link)
1) I find much more amusement and interest in a society of BOEP's than I do in just one, for reasons I mentioned in the rant, and also because it does force the author to start thinking of different kinds of plots than the traditional "Wah, no one understands him because he's the only one who can do this kind of thing!" It seems I've read lots of fantasy lately with well-developed characters, even when they're unique in skills or powers, but piss-poor plotting. Something other than getting the crown and saving the world is welcome any time now.

2) *shrug* It may depend on reader background. I have no problem accepting Pratchett's and Brust's gods because I've never found a notion of a "god" in our own world that satisfies me. In fact, I'm close to a noncognitivist- someone who doesn't believe in deity because none of the definitions of deity makes any goddamn sense. A different conception, a different world with a different metaphysical system, is welcome. The ones that really irritate me are the ones that just presume Christian ideals when the religion is explicitly shone not to be Christian.

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[info]erythros
2005-08-25 02:19 am UTC (link)
^___________________^ This is very, very helpful, thank you. Keeping a level playing field is one of the best ways I know to keep BOEPs from being, yanno, Corwin of Amber in the middle of the Shire. (.... worst crossover ever.)

I liked point number four. (It reminded me of Verra being described as having the fighting style of a brothel tag WOO-HOO)

(I also like how Corwin is the default BOEP, and yet Benedict gets to fade into the background.)

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[info]eisoj5
2005-08-25 02:39 am UTC (link)
Hee. Corwin in the Shire sounds like a FUN crossover. But would they treat him like Saruman? ;)

-josie

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[info]limyaael
2005-08-26 02:07 am UTC (link)
...Damn you, now I have the urge to write "Why Amberites Aren't Welcome In the Shire, Thank You."

(Benedict doesn't influence the plot as much, and doesn't get described as an archangel. I think).

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[info]erythros
2005-08-26 03:38 am UTC (link)
Well, I'd say I was sorry, but we'd both know I was lying. XD (Mandos would not be Amused by Amberites anywhere in Arda. Morgoth totally had a Corwin in his back pocket, but it got scared off by Fëanor.)

(I have been thinking, and I've come to the conclusion that all of Benedict's Gary-Stu potential went to that stupid whore Dara instead. Gaaaaah. DARA. I would've liked to have seen Kymenos go up against her. Or, come to think of it, Hellenta.)

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[info]crotalus_atrox
2005-08-25 02:27 am UTC (link)
Oh, I was waiting for this one.

6) Power doesn’t particularly preclude pettiness.

Damn but yes. Thank you. In fact, that whole point has put a cheerful bounce in my step.

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[info]limyaael
2005-08-26 02:07 am UTC (link)
*grin* You're welcome.

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[info]dwg
2005-08-25 02:32 am UTC (link)
On the RPG scene, I've found that it's really tough to find writers who can pull off a good BOEP. They tend to just flaunt their power every which way and wind up making up new ones to save their skin whever someone smart enough to start poking at them gets in their way.

In my opinion, writing a BOEP is a little more difficult than a regular character because I put in place more restraints on what they can't and won't do - as far as I'm concerned, the extreme power is a last resort tactic, something to fall back upon when everything else fails. Not all BOEPs turn out that way, because some really do like to flaunt - but there's always the consequences to anything done in excess. I like to build in flaws and weaknesses so they're not an absolute power, simply because I've been around too long to see absolute power turn into Mary Sue of practically every variety and I just don't want to write like that. Then again, I'm not a fan of absolutes.

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[info]limyaael
2005-08-26 02:09 am UTC (link)
The danger of Mary Sue-ism is definitely there. However, I think it's because the writer creates the BOEP with one eye on the "normal human" frame of reference. What he can do is wonderful and astonishing to people who can't do it. The writer is always thinking of the BOEP's audience, rather than what he thinks of himself and his power. He's always felt in contrast, in opposition, not as something in his own right. I can see a BOEP-centered novel that flung power around quite casually, and found its sources of tension in something other than conflicts between those with high and those with low power.

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[info]saadiira
2005-08-26 04:14 am UTC (link)
True, that, too. I spend much time avoiding sue-ism along with DWG, and usually, it is by giving out weaknesses, but sometimes, you do have to pull out the heavy. (Generally, I do it with a villain, but hey...)

That is a good thing to ponder, that the tension doesn't have to come from that kind of conflict, and you can do neat stuff with your BOEP. :).

-Dira-

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[info]asciiskull
2005-08-25 02:33 am UTC (link)
Plenty of mentions of Corwin, but there's always Sam from Lord of Light. I always loved that version of the indian pantheon, with the gods fighting over whether to allow internal combustion and the printing press.

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[info]youraugustine
2005-08-25 04:26 am UTC (link)
I <3 Sam.

"Even yours, except crucifixion hurts."

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[info]evilstorm
2005-08-25 10:20 am UTC (link)
Where IS that icon from?

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[info]klgaffney
2005-08-25 04:06 pm UTC (link)
that'd be ed and ein from cowboy beebop, and it's an absolutely brilliant series. not that y'asked me. ;)

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[info]asciiskull
2005-08-28 06:04 pm UTC (link)
Yep- from the episode Ganymede Eulogy.

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[info]the_s_guy
2005-08-25 03:45 am UTC (link)
1) Who can oppose them? Why, their equals, of course.

Exactly. This can be built up to by writing in appropriate fanfic universes - superheroes, mecha, political etc. The good guys ALWAYS have opponents who are as powerful or more powerful.

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[info]blunder_buss
2005-08-25 04:31 am UTC (link)
I totally WORD number 3. Power sometimes is all about perspective. Compared to an ant, I have massive amounts of power. But it's not going to corrupt me, because I don't feel like my power is anything special. Especially when there's others just as powerful as I am.

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[info]limyaael
2005-08-26 02:10 am UTC (link)
Yep. The perspective that you're coming at this from (as I noted in a comment above) definitely matters. If a writer is intent on dividing the world into "special" and "not-special," then I firmly believe she's going to have trouble even if she's only writing about someone with a moderate skill or talent. (Not to mention that I think it's an extremely immature way to divide people up).

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[info]tiferet
2005-08-25 04:51 am UTC (link)
I don't understand how anyone can think immortality would be boring when I don't even have enough free time to read all the books that come out in a year that sound interesting.

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[info]criada
2005-08-25 05:46 am UTC (link)
Some lazy people lack the imagination for immortality. :(

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[info]tavalya_ra
2005-08-25 05:15 pm UTC (link)
Exactly! Sometimes I dearly regret not being immortal just for that reason. Heh.

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[info]limyaael
2005-08-26 02:12 am UTC (link)
Oh, depending on the personality and circumstances, I can see how it would work. To be confined with the same group of boring people for all eternity would be hell. And if, say, technological civilization collapsed and there were no more new books to read, an immortal whose primary purpose that was in life would be devastated.

But I don't understand how those people adapted for immortality, like elves, could possibly lie around bored by their own lives all the time. It's of a piece with how they want to survive, yet stand around moaning, "Woe is us!" when the humans start logging their forests. There seems to be a hidden bias that anything long-lasting, whether a person or a species or a civlization, will drop into decadence at the end. Dumb beyond dumb.

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[info]ohmi02
2005-08-26 04:38 am UTC (link)
... if you were immortal and technological civilization collapsed, you go and start rebuilding it, so they could publish more books for to read.

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[info]korimyr12
2005-11-10 09:14 pm UTC (link)
Now that's a plot bunny...

Maybe the villain isn't such a bad guy after all. Maybe he just wants his ancient civilization back... because they made better literature.

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[info]rhjunior
2005-08-27 03:56 pm UTC (link)
Well, I would suspect that bias springs from an in-depth and highly accurate perspective on human nature :P

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[info]l_clausewitz
2005-08-25 05:46 am UTC (link)
Does this remind anyone of H.P. Lovecraft's Call of Cthulhu? That story and its sequels show a masterful handling of BOEPs--at least in Lovecraft's original works, as opposed to the "Cthulhu mythos" written and propagated by other people after his death.

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[info]mindelemental
2005-08-25 05:53 am UTC (link)
Amber was excellent for (1), especially as Corwin wasn't even the twinkiest sibling by a long shot.

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[info]londonkds
2005-08-25 09:37 am UTC (link)
One of the problems I find with (3) is that many authors are unimaginative and include that "corruption" must equal megalomania and mind-controlling your acquaintances and putting people in concentration camps and so forth. How about, say, someone who is made sufficiently confident by their power that they take on ridiculous amounts of work and screw up?

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[info]limyaael
2005-08-26 02:14 am UTC (link)
I think that's not sufficiently evil for most people. Someone who screws up because she overestimates her ability to cope with work could still have good intentions and have acted in good faith. In that case, it would undermine that "truth" that absolute power corrupts absolutely.

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[info]saadiira
2005-08-26 04:17 am UTC (link)
Could make a damned neat concept, though. I mean..imagine if, say...and this the old cliche, but...death took on too much work. Fired all the lesser helpers. Didn't learn to delegate?

Or maybe if some creator type got that kind of bug up their butt?

Probably best for satyrical fantasy, but hey...

-Dira-

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[info]rhjunior
2005-08-27 04:09 pm UTC (link)
I think what you're talking about is a different cliche' entirely.... "The road to hell is paved with good intentions."

Grant a normal human being almost godlike powers even godlike intelligence, they would rapidly slam up against the fact that they were not granted godlike *wisdom.* And they would carry along with them their own shortcomings--- their pride and prejudices, fixations and obsessions, all their beliefs and convictions, rational and irrational alike.

Lemme put it this way. Picture someone you regard as an absolute nutcase--- harmless and well-intentioned, mind, but totally irrational. A militant vegan, say, or a free-love hippie throwback, or a Trekkie fanatic, or the leader of the First Church of Elvis.

Now picture them with the powers of a demigod.

That, essentially, is what ANY of us would become. Great power not only comes with great responsibility, it requires great caution, just to keep from wreaking more damage than what you're trying to repair.

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[info]evilstorm
2005-08-25 10:18 am UTC (link)
Something about #1: I know that there's prolly a very logical reason for it, but I swear I keep forgetting exactly why the Valar didn't just drag Morgoth back by the scruff of his neck the second time around. Is it that they weren't strong enough? Or considerations of the damage that would be dealt to the world?

And I think immortality could be bloody cool. And fun.

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[info]otakukeith
2005-08-25 10:53 am UTC (link)
They did try to hunt him down immediately after he destroyed the Trees, but Ungoliant's darkness confounded Orome and Tulkas. I think they probably weren't sure they could pull it off and dithered for a while, then decided they'd help if they were definitely wanted. The great thing about the Valar is that they aren't perfect, so they can make legitimate mistakes. And Eru is obviously detached and aloof in a proper sense (unlike Yahweh, for example), although I still have trouble dealing with the annihilation of Numenor.

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[info]limyaael
2005-08-26 02:16 am UTC (link)
Part of it came, too, from the fact that the Noldor chose to leave, and the Valar couldn't oppose the will of the Children of Eru. In addition, they felt like huge screw-ups because so many Noldor left in the first place. That was one reason, besides human mortality, they didn't summon the Men to Valinor, or even go and contact them in Middle-earth. They cut themselves off from the world in what it's easy to read as miffed "Well, we did so badly that we might as well not do at all," and surrounded themselves with mist and mountains so that they didn't have to watch what Morgoth was doing. The Valar who did still try to help, primarily Ulmo, ran up against mortal will again; the Elvish King Turgon disbelieved Ulmo's messenger, Tuor, because he thought his city, Gondolin, could never fall.

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[info]anna_wing
2005-08-25 11:17 am UTC (link)
"Frivolous but harmless". Jacqueline Carey's "Banewreaker" (horrible title, not her fault) has a character, the Sorceress of the East, who is a BOEP due to an alliance with a dragon and the ownership of a powerful magical object.And she has used her power for a thousand years to live a quiet, peaceful life on her mountain, not bothering anyone too much and not letting anyone bother her. I loved this. Oh and enslaving her household help, but not too many at one go, and she always treats them well.

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[info]tamerterra
2005-08-25 01:35 pm UTC (link)
Thank you! I'm writing a goddess BOEP at the moment - she's based off of the Greek pantheon.

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[info]klgaffney
2005-08-25 04:26 pm UTC (link)
*applauds*

1) clear power heirachies kinda annoy me in general--the author needs to keep them in mind, the strengths and weaknesses of each in the physical sense, but the very neat listing that runs along the line of "this is the most powerful mage evah! and this one is the second, and this is the third"--so on and so forth, irks me. that isn't even REMOTELY resembling anything i could find believable. that's like saying this is the smartest scientist evah, and this one's second, and this one's third! i want reasonable doubt. i want a seesaw, i want...more than specialization, i want something resembling what you might find in reality. even if there was that sort of heirarchy, how would the people in that heirarchy know this? did they have a contest?? are they walking around with little power detectors like the chars in dragonball z??

2) *nod* yeah, knowing where the lines are in a story is important. there's too many cases where it's easy to get wires crossed, when you're dealing with BOEP's (love that, by the way, i call 'em things with incredible!cosmic!powers!) and gods. better know what's what, and what makes each thing what they are.

3) *chuckle* if there's an absolute truth to begin with, there's probably going to be a problem, somewhere. there's nearly aways exceptions to every rule. i don't know how many incidents in stories were sparked by the words, "oh REALLY?"

4-5) amen. hell, i wouldn't advertise if i had absolute power. my god, everyone on the planet would be whining at you to fix their problems, give them hair, enlarge their penis, make them rich, make those points on their driver's license disappear, bring about world peace, yadda. and besides that, how many times have us meddling kids gotten involved with a problem in order to "fix it" and had it explode in our faces/eat us up? eh, solve your own problems, you silly mortals. i'm gonna sit back here on my own private beach, read this book, and sip this fruity drink. =p [i can't say i'd have a problem with immortality either. i'm sure i could keep myself occupied. the world's an endlessly shiny place.]

6] thank you, yes. or hey, they can start an entire philosophy built on their perception of what's best, and then watch the rest of world fight endless wars over how to best employ that philosphy.







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[info]coffeedryad
2005-08-25 04:31 pm UTC (link)
And then there's the BOEPs with their Own Agenda, Thankyouverymuch. The Serioli come to mind, as does Sethra Lavode. Guess what I've been reading lately, all thanks to your recommendations!

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Most excellent.
[info]slimshadowen
2005-08-25 06:25 pm UTC (link)
Me likes. *dances*

Oh, and speaking of beings of extreme power:

Metatron: "What're you gonna do? Hit me with a ffffish?"

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[info]wanderingbhikkh
2005-08-25 07:22 pm UTC (link)
The most powerful being in my universe almost destroyed his chosen people because he thought arriving on a flaming meteor would make a great entrance. This isn't the worst, either.

And he likes kicking up plot conflict (as opposed to solving it) so much that a traditional greeting is "Here's hoping God doesn't notice you."

I like my trickster ubergod. ^.^

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[info]farmercuerden
2005-09-25 11:48 pm UTC (link)
...Wait... BWAHAHAHA! You never told me *THAT* part of your world history. I love it!q

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[info]digoraccoon
2005-08-26 12:31 am UTC (link)
I so love your statement on #2. :D Gods that are mortal and imperfect are much more fun for a story then the all mighty entity (to me anyway). Gods may not even be much more powerful at all then everyone else, they just have an ability or item that causes people to perceive them that way. Wasn't Cortez thought to be a god when he visited the Aztecs, just cause he had the presence (and horses, and better weapons...)?

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[info]kgbooklog
2005-08-26 07:00 pm UTC (link)
Like in Steven Erikson's series: "If I'd known I was going to spend the day killing gods, I might have paced myself better."

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Knew I should have made a world with real gods...
[info]kag_kins
2005-08-28 01:08 am UTC (link)
I now want to write about a god whose sole purpose, in all his immortality and power, is to collect stamps/coins/something equally trivial that fits his world.

Which means, when pleaded to for help, he asks if the war/famine/total domination of the world by a Dark Lord will effect the continuation of his supply of whatever he collects.

However, now I remember that all of my gods are political constructs of my world's cultures and don't really exist.

Drat. Anyone want the plot bunny? I don't want to worldbuild again when I'm not done with the world I've got.

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Re: Knew I should have made a world with real gods...
[info]kgbooklog
2005-08-28 03:24 am UTC (link)
I now want to write about a god whose sole purpose, in all his immortality and power, is to collect stamps/coins/something equally trivial that fits his world.

Wowbagger the Infinitely Prolonged gained immortality through a freak accident, and decided to spend his time insulting every sapient being in the galaxy. In alphabetical order. (From Douglas Adams' Hitchhiker series.)

However, now I remember that all of my gods are political constructs of my world's cultures and don't really exist.

That's what they want you to think. They want you not to believe in them! (Paraphrased from Jeff Smith's Bone.)

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[info]onyxflame
2006-08-07 07:14 am UTC (link)
Wee, I think I'm doing something right! :P

1) There's a ton of gods. I don't even know who they all are. I'm not even sure if they know who they all are. It'd be funny if someday someone showed up at their equivalent of Mount Olympus, and they were like "Who's that guy? You can't seriously be a god with that nose, you know." :P

2) Gods are actually just the "evolved" version of mages. They have more power than mortal mages because all magic works via belief, and they have worshippers who believe in them. Voila, superpowers. It doesn't mean they're necessarily informed or intelligent or even sane, though.

3) The biggest bad guy I've currently thought of for my world isn't corrupt. He's just batshit crazy. Yeah I know that's another cliche, but imagine what that guy walking down the street wearing a tinfoil hat because he thinks it'll let him talk to the aliens would do if he suddenly became a god. Especially when the force behind magic is belief. Crazy guys just believe things everyone else "knows" are impossible. ;)

4) Heh, my gods probably screw things up as much as the mortals, just on a bigger scale. They're probably too busy trying to deal with their own conflicts to help the mortals out all the time.

5) There's a really illuminating thread on the Nano boards somewhere, about what kind of things the Christian God might do if he came down to earth one day. Most of them don't involve anything particularly grandiose, and are in fact pretty much the equivalent of going "pull my finger!" I suspect a lot of us would end up doing stuff like that, at least occasionally.

6) My gods know things the mortals don't, simply because they won't die if they should wander out into outer space or something. I still haven't figured out how my death god found a McDonalds. But, all this extra info isn't necessarily useful and/or correct. Just because a brain surgeon knows how to...uhh, operate on brains, doesn't mean he knows how to fix a car or do the Macarena. And knowing how to operate on brains isn't going to do him a hell of a lot of good when his car breaks down.

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