Limyaael ([info]limyaael) wrote,
@ 2005-10-25 20:39:00
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Current mood: enthralled
Entry tags:fantasy rants: autumn 2005, idea rants

And yet more things that Limyaael thinks are really cool
La-la-la-la-la…



1) A character and his or her world in harmony. People with unique motivations, unique pasts, unique powers are and have been intriguing fantasy protagonists. There’s a price to be paid for that, however, at least in most of the stories as-written. The protagonist is disconnected from the world background that should have produced him. He knows things most people don’t, or he’s extremely ignorant. She’s never had X experience that everyone in her society has, or she’s had too many of them. He has tempered, time-tested beliefs while everyone around him is happily naïve, or his beliefs will turn out to be right even though everyone heaps scorn on him for them. People are awed by her, or turn out to be awed by her; she can never blend into a crowd.

What about writing someone who is a citizen of her world, a product of his realm, not brought closer to the twenty-first-century audience through author contrivance, or marked out as “special” by means of Destiny and abuse and people going silent and pale? Someone whose mindset is influenced by everything that’s different about the fantasy world, someone who lives in her society as a fish does in water. Someone, in fact, who’s an ordinary person in a very different world.

I love this because I love immersive fantasy in general, the kind where the author doesn’t stop to explain every little thing that’s different and doesn’t nod to our own world through shortcuts like making the protagonist very anti-slavery even though she lives in a pro-slavery society. The protagonist doesn’t stop and think in detail about her order’s floating temple, because she’s lived there all her life and doesn’t see anything special about it. Or he doesn’t muse on the process of forging his unique sword, because he doesn’t care two bits about the forging; he only wears the sword to impress people. Character and world are blended in such intricacy that they aren’t possible to separate, and the author doesn’t go about showing off her research or sticking in random information from her world-building notes just because she can. She trusts the reader to keep up, and if the reader can’t, well, tough; enjoy the dazzling confusion, then.

The book is written, in fact, like someone is living his or her life through it.

I like that.

2) Regenerative fantasy. I still love transformative fantasy, but I’ve also become fascinated in thinking about what happens after the end of a story. So the great change sweeps across the country. The world’s whole metaphysical structure has altered, or the truth of two religions has emerged from hiding, or a volcano has exploded and destroyed a good portion of the continent.

And then?

Then what happens? How do they rebuild? How do they regenerate? What is life like for the survivors? Who comforts the mourning? Who deals with the bodies? What is life like for children born in this new world, who’ve never known anything else?

In some ways, this resembles post-apocalyptic fantasy. However, I can’t remember one post-apocalyptic story I’ve read written in the general tenor of, “Life goes on. Let’s see how it goes on.” Most of the time, the world is decaying and falling apart as people do drugs and experiment with weird sex and body modifications and gradually revert to barbarism (the territory of a lot of science fiction set after nuclear wars). Other times, the survivors are chosen to create a new world, and are adjured to avoid the problems that led to the apocalypse in the first place (The Stand). There’s the idea that the apocalypse will always just have happened, will always hang in the minds of the survivors, and if anyone ever shows a sign of forgetting it and treating the new world as a place in itself and not the remnants of a greater society, some character will show up spouting “Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it.” One must not ever forget the apocalypse. Change can only happen once, and then everyone must cower in its shadow.

And yet. And yet. Humans are survivors, and so are a lot of other species represented in fantasy. What would happen if the author went along with them as they began to make things new and different, to regenerate, and not just divide into an Evil Group who will make the old mistakes and a New Group who won’t?

I think this kind of story is hard for a lot of people because there’s not an automatic blueprint in fantasy authors’ minds for it, the way that there is for “Go find the Mystical Object” or “Fight war and fall in love and reclaim the throne.” Well, that just means that this is relatively uncharted territory, then, full of new mistakes to be made and new high points to be found and new clichés to be forged. One could do a lot worse than writing a regenerative fantasy and seeing what happens.

3) Empathy for everyone. Speaking of things I like (which the whole damn rant is, really), I like the Oscar Wilde quote “To reveal art and conceal the artist is art’s aim.” Of course, I like best my own rather specialized interpretation of it: to wit, I like it when the artist, the author in this case, is not tipping her hand as to which characters she likes best.

Yes, yes, there are always reasonable assumptions. She probably likes the protagonist or she wouldn’t be writing about him. She probably dislikes the villains or she wouldn’t represent them as wrong. She probably feels the protagonist and his/her love interest would be good together, or she’d find someone else for them both to fall in love with. (Leaving the protagonist single is an option that few authors take).

But so long as those all stay reasonable assumptions and are not forced into my face as facts, then I can maintain the picture of an author with at least empathy if not liking for every character—trying to understand them instead of dismissing them as evil, portraying their motivations as part and parcel of their backgrounds and relationships instead of hurrying things up so that one character appears stupid or independent or cool when he has no reason to be, letting their wills and emotions and reasons and actions dictate the flow of the plot instead of shoving them where they need to be.

There are several signs that an author is doing this:

-The “hero” is probably going to be a protagonist instead, and will not win the adoration of every reader, since he’ll have his flaws and make his mistakes. In fact, he may be a deeply frustrating character, since the author will refuse to hurry up and rip open his eyes to let him see what the reader sees, or hit him over the head with the Epiphany Club.
-People against the protagonist will not be discussed as evil in the narrative’s objective voice.
-Misled or mistaken “villains” are common.
-People can change their minds, and frequently do.
-People can refuse to change their minds, and frequently do; they have no reason to be convinced of the hero’s awesome coolness unless it would make sense, given who they are, for them to be convinced so.
-Each and every character is either their own person, or the author hints that they are. No mindless shells who exist only to comfort the heroine here.
-The danger to the characters is serious and real. The reader cannot be sure that the protagonist will survive to the end of the book just because he’s telling the story.

When I can’t tell who the author favors—or, conversely, when I know that she cares more about telling a good story with fascinating people than about bending everything for one character—then I know I’m in for a good story.

4) Non-war revolutions. I’ve read several good fantasies that started when a new invention or magical process came along, or when a new truth was uncovered, such as the true origins of a religion. However, each and every time the story spiraled into open warfare. The invention was a weapon, or could be used as a weapon, or had to be taken away just in case a country used it as a weapon. The new knowledge was dangerous and something certain people would kill to prevent from becoming common knowledge. And so we get the war plot all over again.

Now, there’s no denying that all these things could cause wars. But there’s also an awful lot of history that’s not war. The Renaissance and the Industrial Revolution both fueled conflict in various ways and were joined to it and proceeded under its auspices, but they were not, in and of themselves, only battles. (Tell me they were intellectual or environmental warfare, and I will ask you why you cannot find another metaphor). They changed people’s daily lives in profound and far-reaching ways, and they changed culture and art and religion and politics and social status and the economy a good deal, too. I think the finding and translation of old Roman and Greek manuscripts during the Renaissance had reverberating effects that Yet Another Fantasy War to put the rightful heir back on the throne is going to have a fuck of a hard time duplicating. Yes, even if the rightful heir has been ordained by the gods themselves. Yes, even if he’s in a love triangle. Yes, even if he has the Mystical Sword of Doom. Just yes in general, all right?

Let’s see some non-war revolutions, life changed and arranged into new patterns by something other than a battle. What traditions has your world developed? What happens when a new invention pops up and spreads overnight? How do ordinary people react to an invention meant for them, rather than their lords and masters? How does the spread of a genuinely new political idea change minds, rather than the return of an old one such as “The new king doesn’t belong on the throne, let’s put the old one there?” I would love to see a fantasy monarchy attempting to cope with a serious democratic movement.

5) Non-anthropocentric fantasy. Not necessarily animal fantasy. I’ve read those and they can be done well; I remember enjoying The Blood Jaguar and The Wild Road years ago, as well as the usual suspects like Watership Down. I’ve also read some insipid and cloying ones, but never mind.

I’m talking about fantasy where sentient species, humans or whatever other species the world has, are not the center of the world, and do not consider themselves so. Instead, they’re as important as the other species in the world, no more and no less.

This is the way that fantasy elves are often represented as being, but I don’t usually believe in them anymore. The authors are too vague on some points—well, how do they build houses in trees and not cause the same mess humans would? It’s magic, that’s how!—and too cutesy on others—the elves can read hearts and minds, and of course that results in a society of utter perfect harmony.

No, I’m talking about an attitude instead, one that can be called biocentric, where the ambitions of the society are oriented towards survival and improved life for themselves, but not at the expense of other species. Costs are calculated and conscious rather than unconscious. People live more in that world than in their heads, or in an imagined otherworld where everything is all right, or in a suspiciously sterile fantasy world where, despite intimations of agriculture and low technology, food is just as clean and fresh as if fridges existed and no one ever gets sick or has to deal with bad weather, insect bites, slow horses, or any of the other bodily facts of life.

Living in such a world, with such an attitude, is obviously going to produce a very different kind of society. It would be almost impossibly hard to do, since Western society is mostly anthropocentric to the core. But I’d love to see what the result would be.

6) Variegated political landscapes. Here is Typical Fantasy Continent A. It has six culturally and linguistically different groups of people on it. However, they all live in kingdoms with more or less the same system of government. They all follow basically the same trade laws and accept the same coinage. Their religions are different, but no religion is allowed to influence the government in a unique way, unless the author plans for one country to be the Crazy Cultist Group.

Or the author has a whole world. And every single “civilized” society in it is a kingdom. There might be some tribal people living in remote islands or the frozen north, but meanwhile, there are kingdoms.

Does this really make sense to anybody?

Yeah, didn’t think so. Look. Real-world societies, which a lot of fantasy authors supposedly draw inspiration from, have always been more varied than that. Kings and queens had to contend with differing social and political forces depending on the country, the time period, the most recent crisis, the most recent invention, which crop had just flourished or failed, who the invading barbarians were this time, what the latest cool political idea was, and who had just allied or broken off relations with them. It may be accurate to say that a lot of the world has experienced monarchy. It is bullshit to say that all the monarchies were identical, and decide that the medieval model, or even just the English model, is the typical example.

And, hey, even in Europe there were variations existing side by side at the same time—monarchies with Holy Roman Empires, half-conquered countries with countries wholly in the possession of one cultural group, warring city-states or provinces with united nations, democracies or republics with monarchies. Countries will influence each other, but just because one is a monarchy doesn’t mean the others have to follow.

This one is more ranty than the others, I suppose. Don’t care, though. I’m tired of seeing authors claim to take inspiration from history and then have all the countries the freaking same. And since I enjoy political fantasy, I’d like to see various arenas for it to be enacted in, rather than a series of bland monarchies with perhaps one tribal group or pseudo-Italian city-state thrown in for “variety.”



There. That’s what I want to see.




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[info]seawolf10
2005-10-26 12:57 am UTC (link)
Well, I did a pretty good job on #6. One elective monarchy in the Holy Roman Empire model, various coastal tribes, one mage-run society that's currently a fascist dictatorship, and one grouping of city-states.

Am I not wonderful? ;-)

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[info]limyaael
2005-10-30 12:17 am UTC (link)
Neat!

I have a whole world that's a mixture of city-states and small "nations," because the main species (non-human) doesn't really trust each other, but, on the other hand, don't have the impulse to conquer each other. They really just want to be left alone.

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[info]youraugustine
2005-10-26 12:59 am UTC (link)
The world’s whole metaphysical structure has altered, or the truth of two religions has emerged from hiding, or a volcano has exploded and destroyed a good portion of the continent.

And then?


::eyes Castalin that she's writing at [info]100originalfics:: Not a cohesive plot, mind you, and the mess dips back to before the apocalypse, too. But I'm playing with that. It's . . . kinda fun.

#3 - it's very interesting to me right now that reader opinion in EP is stacked firmly against Jessie. Because really, I adore(d, he's . . .gone now) the poor thing. Granted, I can entirely see WHY people don't like him. It's just a bit . . .odd.

And I love The Blood Jaguar, because Bobcat is a twit.

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[info]goldjadeocean
2005-10-26 01:11 am UTC (link)
That's because most of the readers of EP also don't know that Jessie loved Tish. I think it's why the clueless ones also dislike Puck (though that's changing); they have no clue the amount of pain those gentlemen are going through.

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(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2005-10-30 12:19 am UTC

[info]goldjadeocean
2005-10-26 01:13 am UTC (link)
#2 is interesting to me because it reminds me of the Kevin Costner movie The Postman. I loved that movie when I was younger, but I haven't seen it for ages.

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[info]erythros
2005-10-26 01:28 am UTC (link)
WAUGH IT WAS A DAVID BRIN NOVEL FIRST AND AWESOMEST

(Feudal Oregon was super-awesome.)

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]goldjadeocean, 2005-10-26 01:57 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]farmercuerden, 2005-10-26 11:02 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]erythros, 2005-10-27 12:33 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]farmercuerden, 2005-10-27 01:12 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]beccastareyes, 2005-10-28 02:11 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]erythros, 2005-10-27 12:34 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]goldjadeocean, 2005-10-27 12:56 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]fluffy_evil, 2005-10-27 09:43 am UTC

[info]pendrecarc
2005-10-26 01:17 am UTC (link)
1) Oh, yes.

3) Yes.

In fact, that's a great big yes to the whole rant, but 1) and 3)...yes.

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[info]limyaael
2005-10-30 12:20 am UTC (link)
Thank you :). Those are two of my favorites, since I love creating fantasy that exists for the sake of its own world and characters- just to be made. I don't really think it has to "speak a moral message to the world at large," which is the explanation I see people give for writing "just fantasy."

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(no subject) - [info]pendrecarc, 2005-10-30 02:28 am UTC

[info]odyssea
2005-10-26 01:52 am UTC (link)
Well, yay for coolness. I'm currently feeling out an embryonic story that incorporates both idea no. 2 and idea no. 6; it's about a society recovering from a civil war, that society being based loosely on the Roman republic, but there's also a lot of interaction with a neighboring society that's more of a Greek tyrannical state. But the dynamics really do change when you deal with a society that's rebuilding - there are a lot of different character roles, occupations, etc. Personally, I'm enjoying dealing with a character that was a career soldier who doesn't have that career anymore and how that all works out.

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[info]limyaael
2005-10-30 12:21 am UTC (link)
That sounds interesting. If nothing else, it's a way to show how lives change without the often corny methods that get employed in other stories (sudden epiphanies, redemptions by "love," characters giving up long-held beliefs for no discernible reason).

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[info]kutsuwamushi
2005-10-26 02:07 am UTC (link)
She probably dislikes the villains or she wouldn’t represent them as wrong.

Really? A lot of the time I get the opposite impression: that the author loves the villain and revels in how bad they are. Then again, I really don't understand authors' relationships with their villains, because I don't write villains myself.

6) Variegated political landscapes.

One of the things that annoys me is that when authors do introduce variety, they often do it a very simplistic way, going too far. Made-up example:

Flaidh is a stable monarchy with a long history. Its people speak a lilting language and worship a sun god, and it has strict gender roles. The clothing is elaborate, the music is baroque ...

Immediately to its west, Dargrek is a chaotic country ruled by warlords. Its language is harsh, its people worship a vast pantheon, and women are treated as equal to men. Clothing is practical, and in their music, elegance and energy are valued over complexity.

And each other country the author mentions is just as different than the last. There's no thought about how the cultures might be related to each other or how they have interacted in the past, even though they share a border. Sometimes I just want to point them at a map and show them how cultural borders just don't work like that.

Pfff.

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[info]limyaael
2005-10-30 12:23 am UTC (link)
I haven't read many fantasy books lately where the author was in love with her villain, at least where I read him as a villain. If the author is mooning on and on about Mr. Dressed in Black, especially if he's handsome and sarcastic and turns out to have been right, then I interpret him as an anti-hero.

...I was going to mention David Eddings as an author whose remarkably similar kingdoms bother me, but actually, in the Belgariad/Malloreon, he loses on BOTH counts. The societies really are very similar to each other, but at the same time, their odder cultural practices exist in isolation. One country was a matriarchy without influencing any of the others into more positive roles for women, for example.

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[info]sanguine_paia
2005-10-26 02:13 am UTC (link)
#6 was of interest to me, as well. i think it would be interesting to see things from a "heathen" or "uncivilized" point of view. why not have a nomad who doesnt wish to live in the city? etc, etc. Good thought. #1 was also interesting. i'm currently working on worldbuilding a semi-utopian society based on a barter and honor system. almost true communism, plus a little societal brainwashing. i want to see where it goes, and if i can actually make it work. it's tough to think of everything, so i'll have to ask around for input. I didnt want something so trite and overdone as a "kingdom" type world, so it will be interesting to see how people will react and interact in such an environment.

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[info]limyaael
2005-10-30 12:24 am UTC (link)
I really like the idea of a collective society portrayed as human, instead of just cruhing individualism.

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(no subject) - [info]onyxflame, 2006-08-19 01:32 am UTC

[info]raleighj
2005-10-26 02:32 am UTC (link)
Especially like #2. It's definitely the sort of story I'd love to read -- concentrating not so much on the big battle, or big apocalypse, but on its aftermath. Plus the term "regenerative" draws up a whole lot of neat connotations -- there's implications not just of mere survival, but of and renewing, rebuilding, and making something shattered into something beautiful again.

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[info]ariescelestial
2005-10-26 02:56 am UTC (link)
Well, between your rants and a few other sources of encouragement, I just signed up for NaNoWriMo. Now I have to flesh out my plot enough so I can actually write about it. >.>

On the topic of this rant: #1 was my favorite, particularly because my main character really shouldn't be that out of the ordinary for his world. The only unusual thing he's done lately is, well, commiting adultery and getting caught at it. I'm still debating how that relation turns out though.

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[info]duckmole86
2005-10-28 08:41 am UTC (link)
Yay for joining NaNoWriMo! I applaud you! And I'm writing without a plot in mind...I figure I'll just write for the fun of it, using the few characters and bits of world that I've made up since deciding I was definitely doing it. According to Mr. Baty that's an ok thing to do.

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(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2005-10-30 12:24 am UTC

[info]x_blackknight_x
2005-10-26 03:15 am UTC (link)
"The “hero” is probably going to be a protagonist instead, and will not win the adoration of every reader, since he’ll have his flaws and make his mistakes. In fact, he may be a deeply frustrating character, since the author will refuse to hurry up and rip open his eyes to let him see what the reader sees, or hit him over the head with the Epiphany Club."

This made me think of discussions my friends and I have had over Achilles (in the Illiad). Half of us love him and half really dislike him. Because he has flaws and actions that some of us can't stand and some like because they make him a realistic character (ignoring the invincible warrior part).

Although the Illiad isn't really fantasy in this sense. So I'll just be quiet now. ^_^

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[info]zero_pixel_coun
2005-10-27 02:11 am UTC (link)
Ah, 'tis. Just a really, really old fantasy... Well, sorta.

I don't recall strong feelings one way or the other about Achilles - although if you also studied tragedy, I DID object violently to Euripedes's characterisation; it might have been more realistic than Aeschylus, but it lost that sense of grandeur. More soap opera than grande opera, as it were.

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(no subject) - [info]x_blackknight_x, 2005-10-28 03:28 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]zero_pixel_coun, 2005-10-28 07:26 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]l_clausewitz, 2005-10-27 05:12 pm UTC

[info]kgbooklog
2005-10-26 03:27 am UTC (link)
Sounds like you've been reading Pratchett recently. :)

1. Have you read Lawrence Watt-Evans' Ethshar books? His protagonists stumble upon uniqueness instead of being inately unique. And many can go a whole book without killing anyone.

2. Again LWE, his Night of Madness shows how people react when a new type of magic suddenly appears. Also counts for #4. And what if the big change is the end of a war as in his Misenchanted Sword?

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[info]limyaael
2005-10-30 12:25 am UTC (link)
I remember reading The Unwilling Warlord and liking it. I haven't read the others.

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[info]paladina
2005-10-26 04:28 am UTC (link)
Heh, I'm coming to this rant after several days of adding a couple hundred years' history to one of my universes (including a world-wide war) and feeling pretty proud.

Yay for different government systems! I like figuring out the different law codes and such--great for culture-building, that. I tend to stick democracies in my fantasy worlds. And then usually a king will take over for awhile again, and maybe then again there'll be a democracy. Something's always happening with history.

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[info]tamerterra
2005-10-28 06:06 pm UTC (link)
FYI, you can have a democratic monarchy - unless you're using that Divine Right of Power thing.

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[info]jetamors
2005-10-26 04:29 am UTC (link)
#2: Oh, yes, yes, yes, this is absolutely my favorite kind of story. Even if it's just an epilogue, I want to know what happens next.

BTW, for post-apocalyptic literature, I think Earth Abides would qualify as that sort of novel; there is a slide into barbarism, of course, but the theme can be seen in its title.

#4 is why I absolutely love the last two chapters of The Years of Rice and Salt.

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[info]limyaael
2005-10-30 12:25 am UTC (link)
I really need to read The Years of Rice and Salt. I keep meaning to. But other things distract me. *woe*

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[info]cloudednine
2005-10-26 04:52 am UTC (link)
Number 4 = so true. I'm tentatively writing a fantasy based around the effect of an industrial revolution on a magical society, and it's unbelievably hard because I'm just not used to thinking about non-medieval, non-war fantasy. But it does make sense, after all. It's not like magic is going to hold a society static.

6 is also a very good point. I can think of a fair number of fantasies that do do it well, but I can also think of a lot of fantasies that don't.

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[info]otakukeith
2005-10-26 06:05 am UTC (link)
“To reveal art and conceal the artist is art’s aim.”

I like this quote too. Interestingly, it seems to me that a lot of contemporary art of all kinds takes the opposite view. The point seems to be to represent the artist's feelings and ideas, often in a very obvious way, drawing blatantly on their personal experiences.

Non-war revolutions.

This one gave me some food for thought, because my Unwritten Plot of Doom has religious revelations precipitating violent upheaval. Now I'm wondering if I should make the upheaval more of a philosophical conflict rather than simply having the villain proclaim his revelations while attacking people. Hmm...

I was going to mention Robert Jordan in connection with point 6, but he actually has a limited amount of political variation. A lot of his countries have councils of nobles instead of/in addition to a king or queen, others (Shara and Tar Valon) are ruled by magic-wielders.

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[info]l_clausewitz
2005-10-26 10:54 am UTC (link)
Actually, Jordan has practically no politics in his books. He mentions Daes Dae'mar repeatedly but never shows how it really works, he fails to establish a believable political dynamics among the Aiel tribes, and his kingdoms are way too centralized. Even in cases where the nobles are "constantly plotting against the king," I've never seen them actually building a local power base within their inherited domains. There was a great opportunity to play out the politics in Tarabon in book 4 or 5, but the magic interfered so much with it that the whole thing practically collapsed into a farce.

And pretty much everybody agrees with Rand once they've seen him.

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(no subject) - [info]duckmole86, 2005-10-28 08:50 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2005-10-30 12:28 am UTC

[info]ankewehner
2005-10-26 11:17 am UTC (link)
2) makes me think of a bookseries I'm reading right now.
The setting is a sorte Rennaisance like world, which is hit by a fragment of a comet. Tidal waves destroying fleets and coastal cities, an earthquake lifting a chain of islands so that waterways are not navigable anymore, famines caused by the winter, nomads fleeing said winter south, clashing with the civilized people that already live there - and on top of that magic and monsters from fairy tales and legends suddenly coming alive again.
It doesn't really focus on the political and such changes after the first book, but rather on individual fates, but the underlying framework is there alright.

I just hope someday Gezeitenwelt will be translated to English, so that I can bug my online-buddies into reading it.

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[info]zero_pixel_coun
2005-10-27 02:13 am UTC (link)
It's online in... German? Do you have a link? I'm out of practice but I do like to keep my hand in...

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(no subject) - [info]ankewehner, 2005-10-27 09:35 am UTC

[info]falar
2005-10-26 12:03 pm UTC (link)
Muahahahahahahhaa, number 4 in the bag. Sort've in the bag. Kind've in the bag. There's a non-war revolution in there, but I don't know how to make it the central thing (or even if I want to) unless ... ooooh ... the counterfeiters.

Basically, in my fantasy world (which desperately needs a name), there are three kinds of magic users which are chosen by the magic, which is like a semi-sentient sixth-or-higher dimension. Eh-heh. However, some magic users figure out that they can enchant items that anyone can use the magic power of. And that they can limit how much power is in said enchanted item.

Poof. The currency of magic. Poof. The counterfeiters of the currency of magic. Poof. The solution to the counterfeiters of the currency of magic. Poof. Things changing in that one country where the king kept the populace happy by giving them magical assistance. Poof. Other stuff happening.

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[info]marikochan
2005-10-26 12:16 pm UTC (link)
Can you recommend some readings re: #6? I'm always worried about my politics in fantasy, because I just don't know that much about comparative politics. Some real-life examples besides the standards would probably be useful. Help?

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[info]l_clausewitz
2005-10-26 04:39 pm UTC (link)
Well, for something that would provide both a variety of political systems and a variety of ways to ruthlessly backstab your friends, read any book on the general history of the Thirty Years' War. Between the Holy Roman Empire and its quasi-independent subject princedoms, the centralized (but plagued by almost daily rebellions) regime of France, the mercantile confederacy of the Dutch provinces, and the great roving bands of mercenaries whose generals were all but kings without a state, you'll have it all. It's got to be a book, though, no matter how small, since an encyclopedia or magazine article always oversimplifies the political maenuverings involved in the war. Not many people know that Emperor Ferdinand to had to borrow a couple of armies from his Spanish cousins and the Catholic league just to crack down on the 1618 Bohemian uprising!

Another period that would make for a good starting point is the Italian Wars between France, Spain, and the various Italian principalities from 1494 onwards. However, introductory works on it are often tainted by an overemphasis on the Renaissance, with not enough attention paid to the continuity with the late Medieval period. I'd also recommend the Roman campaigns in Greece and Macedonia during the 3rd century B.C. if you're really serious about it.

Of course, if you want a quick-and-dirty primer instead, check Machiavelli's Il Principe (The Prince). Good English translations are available at WikiSource and Project Gutenberg.

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(no subject) - [info]marikochan, 2005-10-27 03:52 pm UTC

[info]blunder_buss
2005-10-26 12:59 pm UTC (link)
2) This is the reason why I love the series Mega Man Zero. It's set 100 after the planet was smacked by a space colony and was seriously screwed over. Thus, you see a world that is trying to regenerate itself and all the delicious conflicts that occur, such as;

- All human habitats are ruled by one person in a dictator-like fashion, to ensure precise management and therefore survival.

- An energy crisis, where weaker elements of society had to be killed to lessen the demand. This causes a bunch of those people to rebel and start a guerilla faction.

- The rebels take down the dictator, saving their group, but also weakening the government system.

- An old enemy uses this chance to take over, and rules it with an iron-fist. People flee the habitats and are resentful that their lives were disrupted.

And so forth. You have a world trying to put itself back together, where one action will affect many other people, who react in believable ways. It's amazing.

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Re: Nr. 2
[info]coffeedryad
2005-10-26 01:08 pm UTC (link)
Reminds me of _A Canticle For Leibowitz_. Science fiction, not fantasy, of course, and, well, MASSIVE SPOILERS ELIDED, but sort of.

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[info]sephielzero
2005-10-26 01:18 pm UTC (link)
Yeah, hi.

I've been working my way through the archives of these, and you've never failed to make me think so - er, I'm friending you.

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[info]limyaael
2005-10-30 12:28 am UTC (link)
Welcome! I hope you find useful ideas here.

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[info]saadiira
2005-10-26 01:36 pm UTC (link)
1-Yes, yes, and yes PLEASE! (Steven Brust's characters have some elements of this.)

2-That would be pretty awesome. It IS always about the current conflict that is coming from the apocolyptic event, or further degeneration, instead of rebuilding, isn't it? Well..mostly. I think I've seen sci fic from time to time where there was rebuilding. Maybe if you could find something based off the White Buffalo prophecies...

3-Oh PLEASE!

Blood and thunder
guts and gore
hero tales
are such a bore.

(Copped from MZ Bradley.)

4-If I recall, I found elements of this at least in Barbara Hambly and Paula Volsky's writings from time to time.

5-Not sure it counts, but was a hell of an alternate sentient species novel: The Architect of Sleep. Raccoons.

6-Oh GOD please! I love politics and political systems. Finally, in disgust at not seeing more variety, I added a strict meritocracy, a theocracy, a couple of monarchies, and empire, and various tribal and other forms to one world I worked on for a long time.

Thanks, Limyaael. Good rant!

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[info]renakuzar
2005-10-26 02:09 pm UTC (link)
There’s the idea that the apocalypse will always just have happened, will always hang in the minds of the survivors, and if anyone ever shows a sign of forgetting it and treating the new world as a place in itself and not the remnants of a greater society, some character will show up spouting “Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it.

You must find and read A Canticle for Leibowitz</i>

In that novel, history repeats itself with a brutal vengance.

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[info]limyaael
2005-10-30 12:29 am UTC (link)
But I'm mainly interested (at least in that point) about history not repeating itself. I've read too many stories where the author acted like they were the first ever to have thought of that.

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[info]sythyry
2005-10-26 02:47 pm UTC (link)
A character and his or her world in harmony

Sythyry waves a wing. "That's me! That's me! I have all the standard prejudices and attitudes and stuff of my world! I'm not marginalized most ways, just a bit young and noble."

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[info]tj_dragon
2005-10-26 03:13 pm UTC (link)
Point 4 has inspired me to have an Emperor die of illness.
I had to get him out of the way and had vague ideas about him being assassinated (this part of the plot is generally vague now) but I see that non-war would be simpler. The new young Emperor doesn't have to avenge his father with violence and certain sensible advisors can peacefully come to the fore.
Thanks!

Also liked 6, the (non-evil) Empire is balanced by a tribal(ish) society. The tribe is almost utopian but has high mortality and a small population. It's likely the Empire will corrupt it, almost a shame really but a realistic viewpoint. There's no way they'll remain isolated and unaffected.

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