Limyaael ([info]limyaael) wrote,
@ 2005-10-29 20:13:00
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Current mood: cranky
Entry tags:characterization rants: protagonists, fantasy rants: autumn 2005, world-building: politics

Espionage rant
This is the espionage rant. And most of this does assume fantasy worlds, yes, so I expect that a lot of what I’m saying wouldn’t apply in straightforward spy novels/SF.



1) What makes your spy a good one? One of the favorite ways to make a protagonist a spy, it seems, is to seize on a person the bad guys will never expect. “Oh, you’re too young, they’ll never think a teenager is the King’s trusted new spy!” Or “A woman can get in more easily than any of our men.”

And they really would have seized any random teenager or woman to fulfill this role, right? They don’t have any trained spies who just look young, or who are women?

This is the part that bothers me, because since spy missions have an element of danger and are almost always important, you should, well, send someone who has a chance of not giving him- or herself away the moment the bad guys spot ‘em.

Now, this doesn’t mean that a seemingly unlikely person can’t be a spy. I enjoyed Danilo Thann, in Elaine Cunningham’s Elfshadow, because he’s a bumbling idiot whose spells always misfire at parties—on the surface. Beneath it, he’s someone who listens carefully to all the gossip that people repeat in the presence of bumbling idiots, and he’s a talented mage whose misfires might take more actual work than more carefully-crafted spells. Both of those are carefully cultivated masks. They draw a lot of attention, but none of it is attention that’s harmful to his cause.

I fail to see how sending someone who has a hot temper, is prone to blurt out unfortunate facts and not look before leaping, and has little to no information on what she is actually supposed to be doing is the same as sending a credible spy.

I suppose this might make a good comedy of errors, but I think it would make an even better plot if the stupid spy is just the fall guy or the distraction, and the real one moves past while everyone stares at the girl screaming her lungs out over a political opinion that she was supposed to pretend to agree with. I’ve seen a few too many “naturally talented” characters who somehow, wow, turn out to be great spies!, usually because the author dumbs down the bad guys.

2) Have the smartest spy, if you must. Just don’t have the only smart one. I read an alternative history recently where the author exalted his hero as the only competent spy in the British Intelligence Service. Yet, somehow, the British Intelligence Service also ruled the espionage world.

Excuse me?

No, actually, I don’t think that you can build up a good protagonist by tearing down the other characters who share his profession. I think I may possibly have mentioned this at some point.

The best way, as always, is to show the protagonist as first among equals (or even as an equal, which is really not that hard. I think it would do some fantasy heroes some good to get honestly, fairly beaten by someone who’s a rival rather than an enemy, and not soothed with useless platitudes about “It’s not about who lost or won, it’s about how you played the game”). That only makes sense. If the spy service is a massively sprawling and yet also massively competent thing, that cannot solely be the work of one person. The competent person would surely have trained others to the same standard, for one. And if he’s competent as a result of training he received, then explain to me how those training methods somehow managed to produce one miracle and a whole lot of duds.

So. If you want a spy service rather than someone who’s learned to act as a spy on his own, perhaps as a mercenary, then make it a service—a community, not a bunch of dunderheads focused on worshipping a genius.

3) Show how spies filter through information to find the useful stuff. I love watching characters as they think, love watching them go in some false directions, find this out, and then start off in new ones, and love it when I can follow the logic and leaps of intuition they use to figure things out. (This is one reason why the huge “explaino” scene at the end of so many mystery novels frustrates me. If the author hasn’t showed me how the detective reached his conclusions, I sulk, and if she has, then I don’t have to see it again).

But stretch this too far, and you’ve got characters putting together conclusions they never should have. It gets especially ludicrous when a spy looks at a knife and “somehow, she just knew that this meant Old Man Pardis wanted to start a war with Ithuka.”

Huh? What about the knife told her that? The forging, the blade, the hilt? Old bloodstains on it? The owner’s initials? A secret message in code on the back of the knife saying “Mwaahahahah! I am Old Man Pardis and I intend to start a war with Ithuka!”?

“Somehow” isn’t going to cut it, especially when you have people who are supposedly trained to rely on evidence and reasoning their conclusions out rather than wild leaps or guesses.

I think it’s fine to have contacts or minor spies who just report everything to the spy protagonist, whether or not it’s useful. They’re not as trained; something might be important, so they report it. But the main one should reach a conclusion that’s reachable based on what’s actually in front of him.

Also, while this is a minor point, it is a pet peeve of mine: can we please stop having spies reach some important conclusion, sprint out the door with it, and then wind up dead before they can tell anyone the information? The only exception is if they were on their way to report the important information when they got caught. Otherwise, I think at least telling the other trained spy standing right the fuck beside them when they figure it out is the top priority, not trying to stop the bad guy they have no training to stop.

Oh, yes.

4) Figure out the spy’s skills early on. Yes, James Bond can tug out a new technological development every time he needs one in the movies; his training is less important than his gadgets. However, fantasy books that are written like movies and work are rare. I happen to think most of this is due to the fact that every other genre is currently represented better in movies than fantasy is. Most attempts to create, oh, CGI dragons don’t look anywhere near as good as the things that a fantasy book not written with cinema in mind can conjure.

Also, it’s hard to hit the exact mixture of serious and smartass that the James Bond movies aim for. They’re an established tradition. A fantasy novel that’s working outside a certain narrowly-defined subgenre is not, and has to set everything up on its own.

So, please, decide on the amount of these things available to your spy:

-Magic.
-Magical gadgets or objects.
-Technological gadgets, down to the simple things like rope. I object to the spy suddenly having a grappling hook to climb the castle wall when the author detailed the contents of his pack earlier and there was no such thing.
-Observation skills. Sure, there are rookie spies participating in less dangerous missions as well as experienced spies on more dangerous ones, but if he’s a rookie, why is he suddenly seeing things the trained spies would miss?
-Hand-to-hand combat or other fighting skills. I’ve seen a few fantasy novels ruined because the spy has no way to take on the bad guy because he can’t fight, knows it, and yet tries to attack the villain bare-handed instead of using the skills he does have.
-Allies in the area, including contacts and other spies.
-Enemies in the area, including enemy spies and the people he’s spying on.

This way, you won’t find yourself with a nice, calm, sane story that suddenly mutates into Inspector Gadget halfway through. If nothing else, I’m going to be wondering why the spy wasn’t using those nifty toys earlier, at the beginning of his mission.

5) Keep the danger factor as well as the cool factor in mind. Rogue stories, of which stories about spies are a part along with stories that have thief and assassin heroes, often shed the danger factor in favor of the cool one. The heroes do insanely risky things for the pleasure of getting away with them. All the plans are complicated, nothing is simple. They have to follow long, tangled trails of intrigue laced with dark secrets, and then there are lots of explosions.

However, a spy protagonist has one very great difference from a thief or assassin. They are usually doing things that society at large disapproves of, and at most they’re responsible to a guild or a single patron who might have hired them. However, at least one society approves of spies—as long as they’re their spies, of course—and the arena in which they move is political, with responsibility and the weight of others’ lives, or at least their purses, hanging off their shoulders. I can accept a spy doing an insanely risky thing when it will further his mission or serve whoever hired him. I cannot accept him calling attention to himself when it will serve no purpose—look at point 1 again—or when he knows that it would be counterproductive to the purposes of his mission in the long run. And if he turns against the people he proved willing to risk life and limb in the first place for, he’d better have a good fucking reason.

Okay, so you might have a mercenary who works as a spy and would abandon his employers the moment he was in danger to save his own skin. But in that case, a) he’d probably have a reputation for doing so, and no one would hire him, and b) that would mean he’d underestimated the danger he was in in the first place, which does not indicate high observational skills. And please, please, please, no more “hardened spy looks at a child and is suddenly redeemed to the side of Light [the side that would never hire spies]” stories. It’s so fucking irritating when authors think people have to be ‘redeemed’ from the ‘crime’ of doing things for pay. I suppose that all the good country’s soldiers and artisans serve for free, then?

I’d like to see some more spies who are actually principled badasses, not just badasses.

6) Make sure the situation requires a spy/the kind of spy you send in. In some cases, I’m really puzzled as to what the country could gain from sending in a spy. Okay, so this country is mysteriously withdrawing troops from the border. When the concerned neighboring country asks why through their ambassador, the first country admits there’s been a plague, they need the soldiers to help bring in the harvest now that so many people are dead so there’s not a famine on top of it, and oh, by the way, can they borrow some money? And the ambassador does see the signs of plague, and sees the soldiers working frantically in the fields. And this country has always had good relations with its neighbor, and nothing has happened lately to strain them.

Maybe it’s all a big, elaborate scheme, and the “dead” people are really hiding underground and training as horrible, death-crazed shock troops. And maybe there are pigs flying in Brazil.

Even if there’s reason to suspect that the situation is more complicated, the ambassador’s already on scene. Why not instruct him to keep a close eye on things instead of sending in some stranger who’s going to get weird looks, or possibly accusations of being a bastard, when he starts nosing into the plague-denuded areas? At least show why the neighboring country would have some reason to distrust its ambassador, or think this is all part of some elaborate plot. Having paranoia turn out to be 100% right all the time, on “a feeling,” is also getting old. (See point 3 again). Sometimes, they really aren’t out to get you.

Then there’s the case of having a spy in an organization that the protagonist works for. He’s leaking information to someone in the outside world about how many magically enhanced carrots the protagonist’s organization grows in a year.

…And?

Show why this information is important. This is what most frustrates me about “mole” stories: so many times there seems to be no one who would care about the information he’s leaking. But, ohmygod, there’s a traitor! Let’s hunt him down!

Priorities, priorities, priorities, people. Governments, the most frequent employers of spies in fantasy, consist of people, but they are also governments. They shouldn’t send spies on long journeys with complicated missions just because some minister had a bad dream. At least make the minister a seer.

7) Take precautions that are actually precautions. Contacts, false names, passwords, and ciphers are among the most frequently-mentioned. There could also be magical safeguards, such as seals on letters that refuse to open until the proper song is sung to them. But then these are all forgotten at the crucial moment, of course—usually when the author wants the enemy to find out information and put the spy in danger. She just forgets to explain how that was done.

So there’s this unbreakable cipher. How was it broken so that the enemy could learn about the spy’s mission?

No, not mentioning it won’t do, not when you went to such lengths to emphasize that the cipher was unbreakable. Neither will saying that the enemy could have broken it all the time, because why the hell would they let the spy keep passing vital information out of the country for as long as they did?

Bad author. No cookie.

Then there’s the famous overheard conversation. Bad guys just walk into some room, don’t even check that a servant might be dozing behind the curtains of the old four-poster in the corner, and start yapping out complicated, detailed plans to each other.

This is lazy on at least three counts: the bad guys are stupid, the bad guys are holding infodumping monologues (often “As you know, Bob…” conversations, with villains asking for information they already know), and the person who overhears them usually does it entirely by chance, not careful planning. I object to calling a hero a hero when he only wins based on coincidence. Someone hurtled into an adventure they never wanted and filled with terror by what they overheard is one thing, but also a different kind of story. A trained spy should know better, and make more effort to actually discover what the villains are doing.



God, stupid spy stories annoy me.




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[info]larathia
2005-10-30 01:04 am UTC (link)
It's useful to play a spy in an RP to get the hang of these things. After all, if you don't make it very clear where the evidence is coming from and why the spy is drawing the conclusions he is, it's called "godmoding". Or blurring the IC/OOC line and people tend to be very upfront about telling you you've crossed the line.

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[info]l_clausewitz
2005-10-30 04:04 pm UTC (link)
And the other players tend to have very sharp eyes in regards to these matters....

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(no subject) - [info]larathia, 2005-10-30 04:06 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2005-11-03 01:46 am UTC

[info]erythros
2005-10-30 02:03 am UTC (link)
I read an alternative history recently where the author exalted his hero as the only competent spy in the British Intelligence Service. Yet, somehow, the British Intelligence Service also ruled the espionage world.

Is this the one where the enemy is the King of Poland? :( That one made me so sad. (I read one of the short stories when I was fourteen, in a library-lent compilation of spy-stories, and then could never find it again.)

Personally, my favorite spy story is Gordon Korman's Our Man Weston, which manages to be a Young Adult spoof while still managing to make sense.

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[info]asciiskull
2005-10-30 09:59 am UTC (link)
Do you mean "A Case of Identity" by Randall Garrett?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]derringdo, 2005-10-31 02:31 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2005-11-03 01:47 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]asciiskull, 2005-11-03 05:03 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]kadewire, 2005-10-30 05:24 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]erythros, 2005-10-31 05:04 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]kadewire, 2005-10-31 05:30 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]white_serpent, 2005-10-31 11:53 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2005-11-03 01:47 am UTC

[info]chiyo_no_saru
2005-10-30 02:10 am UTC (link)
About the unbreakable cipher - it would be amazing if yes, it really was unbreakable. As in, the spy sent it, and no one could read it, and they got it wrong in the translation or such.

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[info]tamerterra
2005-10-30 08:51 pm UTC (link)
Or the spy forgot to seal it properly. *facepalm*

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2005-11-03 01:48 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]jessara40k, 2005-11-05 12:08 pm UTC

[info]fluffy_evil
2005-10-30 02:19 am UTC (link)
I hate seeing stories where no one is at all suspicious of the spy. -_- They don't seem to connect that their enemy has found their info since the spy joined them. e.e *Cringe*

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[info]duckmole86
2005-10-30 02:26 am UTC (link)
They could at least blame somebody...logical. Blaming people illogically (you have blond hair, as does the king of !The Good Side!, therefore you must be a spy) is no better than not blaming anyone.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]fluffy_evil, 2005-10-30 09:24 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2005-11-03 01:48 am UTC

[info]duckmole86
2005-10-30 02:28 am UTC (link)
I haven't read many spy stories, and don't think I'm likely to write one, but at least now I know things to aviod. Gee, some of what you described sounds horrid. The cliches make me shiver, as does the thought of that total lack of planning. 'Twas an interesting rant.

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[info]limyaael
2005-11-03 01:49 am UTC (link)
Many authors write intrigue/spying focused on the end results. I think it would be a lot more interesting if they thought about how everything actually works.

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[info]invoking_urania
2005-10-30 03:56 am UTC (link)
This makes me want to try my hand at poiltical intrigue all the more. But, knowing me, that would require researching cryptography and such.

Also, I have you friended on my non-writing journal ([info]beccastareyes and am also doing so with my writing journal. Most stuff is open or merely friendslocked, but my upcoming NaNoWriMo project will be filtered (the add-me post is near the top).

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[info]dsgood
2005-10-30 04:00 am UTC (link)
James Bond -- note that the original books are somewhat different from the movies.

Sending in a less-than-competent spy: There's at least one good reason for this -- drawing attention away from the real spies.

And I can think of a reason why this person would actually be more competent than the "real" spy: The professional who's supposed to do the real work is chosen on the wrong basis. He has the right ancestry, has a degree from the Intelligence School (extremely ancient, and hasn't adapted its courses to take account of such innovations as the wheel), etc.

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[info]limyaael
2005-11-03 01:51 am UTC (link)
True, if it's justified like that, I could see sending in a spy who wasn't professional (although I'd still wonder how in the world the "secret, cool, masterful" spy organization got anything done at all and was supposedly so totally awesome they could gain all this information they needed while having no competent agents).

What gets me is when authors assign a spy role to a character just to give her something to do. She doesn't have any skills, she has the kind of personality that wouldn't make a good spy, she would get noticed and distrusted in the enemy organization...and they send her in anyway.

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[info]rhjunior
2005-10-30 06:07 am UTC (link)
I fear I've currently trampled all over several of your points in my current storyline in Tales ot the Questor--- primarily the "overheard conversation" one.

The trick of it is, I'm trying to write a story about a bad spy, but instead keep stumbling into writing a bad spy story. I specifically want the "spy" in the story to never really figure out what's going on, even while the reader pieces it together. The hero of the story is just snooping around, trying to get back a very valuable item that was stolen from him... but he's consequently blundering his way through the fringes of a rather complicated political conspiracy.I'm afraid I've resorted to more than one minor deus ex machina to get him as close as he is to his goal.

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[info]blunder_buss
2005-10-30 07:16 am UTC (link)
You'd think fantasy spy stories would be really interesting, due to things like telepathy or scrying or other magical devices. It's sad to hear that they fall into this nonsense. :P

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[info]dreamlessness
2005-10-30 07:44 am UTC (link)
i have a special love for espionage (and an active interest in it due to certain recent RL events), so i'd just like to say thanks for this. espionage is i think essential in any good civilized society. fantasy settings are by no means exempt.

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[info]slobbit
2005-10-30 09:12 am UTC (link)
Yay! I just had to sit down and write some on a scene with the spy in my current WIP last night. I'd been kind of stuck, just trying to figure out how much information he picks up and how. Thought about the ole overhearing conversation bit, and it didn't ring true. Pondered some more, and came and read this.

Well, it turns out he learns a few things that are moderately valuable on their own, but paint a more solid picture when put together with the rest of the information his employer knows. And he does it by observing clothes.

So, thanks for backing up my own opinion that the folks on the other side would not be so stupid as to be in any situation where an unknown entity (my character) could overhear conversation.

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[info]limyaael
2005-11-03 01:52 am UTC (link)
I hate overheard conversations. I pointed out in an old rant that it's extremely rare, when eavesdropping on someone, to overhear a) something about yourself, b) something important about yourself, and c) something important and lifechanging that will set out a course of action for you. Yet spies are always hearing the enemies' battle plans, or that they're suspicious of that particular person. It's nauseating.

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[info]elfbiter
2005-10-30 09:41 am UTC (link)
Actually, many of these aspects could work as well in non-fantasy...

#2 Probably based on James Bond (although I think that Fleming tries to tell that there are other 00's in addition to the 7 but the "only superspy" idea seems to have stuck). Considering that Fleming based his character of Sidney Reilly, who apparently was not the superspy he claimed to be, that's doubly dubious.

#3 In her writing guide Ursula LeGuin forbade the "somehow" for the same reasons I would. Granted, lots of any kind of investigation is trying to find which leads are the dubious ones and writing about them all could be boring. However, the protagonist may be bound to stumble on something genuine - maybe based on something only they could know.

#4 Yes, in the movies the special effects are more important than characters. In the books, the gadgets are not as important than Bond's skills in bed. Not very cinematic, probably :-)

#6 latter part. Many RL moles are not planted for a specific mission or a reason but for "eavesdropping", spying for information that might come useful (like Soviet "Illegals" did).

However, in terms of spy stories, I blame Alistair MacLean; in most of his espionage stories, there is always the "impossible" traitor (i.e. there is no hint in the story that the character might be traitor until the protagonist blurts it out due to information he has either received before the story begins (and never refers to) or accidentally stumbles on.

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[info]dwg
2005-10-30 12:39 pm UTC (link)
From what I remember of my Fleming, "007" was actually the code for a Licence to Kill - which is why Bond is allowed to kill all the bad guys and their minions with impunity and screw international relations, and thus his superspy status. I know there's been made mention of other 00 agents both in the books and the movies, so it's probably safe to say that each 00 is a code for something. I think there was a 006 (hey, Sean Bean!) in Goldeneye, but that was the last time I heard it.

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(no subject) - [info]andrusi, 2005-10-30 05:28 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]l_clausewitz, 2005-10-30 05:40 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]fourjacks, 2005-10-30 09:28 pm UTC

[info]ladylight
2005-10-30 11:55 am UTC (link)
I enjoyed Danilo Thann, in Elaine Cunningham’s Elfshadow, because he’s a bumbling idiot whose spells always misfire at parties—on the surface.

He was good, wasn't he? A shame about Arilyn Moonblade, the average Deadly Assassin Who Is Very Principled and Quite Famous But Definitely Still a Deadly Assassin, Yep.

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[info]limyaael
2005-11-03 01:53 am UTC (link)
I liked her the first time I read the books. I got frustrated when she turned into a Duty-Bound Elf Who Cannot Have Sex With a Human Because He Will Die First.

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(no subject) - [info]jessara40k, 2005-11-05 12:06 pm UTC

[info]brightbear
2005-10-30 12:28 pm UTC (link)
This is a good rant. A lot of writers tend to regard spies as vehicles for exposition rather than as characters in their own right (I think this is the cause of a lot of #2).

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[info]l_clausewitz
2005-10-30 01:14 pm UTC (link)
About #1 (and perhaps #6), I've actually been wondering for a long time why those authors chose to make that "unexpected" kind of spy. Most of the real-world spies I've read about (even ones from ancient and medieval times) seemed like they were chosen precisely because of their ordinary looks, ordinary manners, and ordinary everything--in other words, their masters picked the kind of people who would be able to blend in easily in most situations they were expected to meet. It's no wonder that I was extremely amused when, in a star Wars fanfic, Darth Vader thought about a certain Jedi as having the word "Spy" painted in red on his forehead because that Jedi didn't have any extraordinary features in his appearance. Which is (amusingly) believable, given the frequency with which Darth Vader is portrayed as a spymaster even in canon material.

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Exactly
[info]karenrei
2006-03-24 09:20 pm UTC (link)
Spies are subtle. That's the whole point of a spy. A spy like James Bond who lives to stand out is just plain idiotic ;) Real spy action is mostly tension, not drama. A spy may spend years setting themselves up in their environment. Either there will be no confrontation, or if there is, it will be very, very brief (they're arrested and hauled away with no notice, they're shot trying to cross a border, etc)

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[info]digoraccoon
2005-10-30 02:05 pm UTC (link)
Good points on spies. You know, you remind me of a discussion about James Bond from #5. We concluded that Bond is actually a very evil character. In D&D alignment rules he'd be considered a Lawful Evil character. Other then his duty to England & the MI department he is very selfish and moralistically lacking. He treats others as fools and women as toys.

Wery interesting discussion when you think about it. :)

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[info]caremel
2005-10-30 02:18 pm UTC (link)
A great spy series (not at all fantasy, but whatever) is the Quiller books by Adam Hall. The reason Quiller is chosen to do these missions is because he's the only one out of his mind enough to do them as well as having no official status. Great for seeing how a well written spy book can be put together ("the quiller memorandum" or "quiller solitaire" are good ones).
~Caremel

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[info]sweetdeily
2005-10-31 03:31 am UTC (link)
"... the person who overhears them usually does it entirely by chance, not careful planning. I object to calling a hero a hero when he only wins based on coincidence."

And that is exactly the reason why I -hate- reading most spy novels. It happens sooooo damn often.

I've read Elaine Cunningham's Harper series, and I must say, she really knows how to make a spy. To sign a confession, I've got a soft spot for Tamora Pierce's spy novels (the title escapes me right now,) and I think it's because of the fact that they are, indeed, well done. The spy is trained, doesn't let stupid information slip, and doesn't run headlong into situations she can't handle.
Shock and horror.

Wondering, what do you have to say about fantasy creatures? What are your pet-peeves on them. Personally, I am sick and tired of seeing dragons as either the wise mentor, the endagered species, or the raging beast. Your thoughts on this would be interesting.

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[info]rhjunior
2005-10-31 09:43 am UTC (link)
Arf. Dragons.

I have more problems with the first and second (wise mentor) than with the third (raging beast), primarily because the first two are such a ridiculous departure from mythology. Even in Asia, dragons were regarded with not a little bit of fear--- tornadoes and waterspouts were infant dragons learning to fly, earthquakes were great dragons stirring in their sleep, and an eclipse was a great dragon of heaven trying to swallow the sun. They may not have been outright "evil" but they were still nothing to be messing about with.
This was paralleled in european mythos more than most people know; To wit, lightning was thought in many european fables to be the breath of dragons....

What I'm getting at is that my perception, after having read some of the various mythologies, is that dragons were percieved less as animals and more as forces of nature--- amoral, powerful, quixotic and unpredictable as hell. Living cataclysms.

In the Questorverse I've tried to return to that "living cataclysm" perception. Dragons aren't noble sages or malevolently intelligent overlords--

they're more a walking natural disaster.

Which makes more sense... I mean, considering what an untended campfire or dropped cigarette can do to a forest, think about the consequences to the environment to adding a species that defends itself by BREATHING FIRE.

Throw in some of their other typical "natural features..." Carnivorous, or at best omnivorous diet, poisonous breath and blood...weighing in at several thousand pounds.... Even if it ate grass and were as benign and peaceful as a milk cow, the presence of a single beast like this would reduce hundreds of square miles to little better than a Superfund site: charred, poisoned and barren of life.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]sweetdeily, 2005-10-31 11:12 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]rhjunior, 2005-11-01 02:52 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]paladina, 2005-11-01 04:42 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]sweetdeily, 2005-11-02 05:34 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2005-11-03 01:55 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]damien_winter, 2005-11-05 10:23 pm UTC

[info]deathglare
2005-10-31 01:59 pm UTC (link)
Then there are ninjas, which by all rights should have a lot more espionage stories, instead probably most stories end up being action. Either straight out battling which most ninjas tend not to be specialized with in the first place or a botched assassination attempt horribly and constantly getting worse after the fact.

Rare is the story where they actually take the role of spies. When they do, it tends to be something that is left in the background or simply glossed over instead of going into detail about things.

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[info]derringdo
2005-10-31 02:26 pm UTC (link)
*Applauds* Thank you. that was worth reading. I'm gonna dissent from #6, however, because I think any self-respecting secret service spies on all the neighboring/politically connected countries, regardless of how friendly/not they are. In the situation you outline, any proper espionage service would have their own intel on the ground-maybe just an attache to the ambassador with a secret source of funds and a network of local informers but they'd have *something* over and above the ambassador.

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[info]beccastareyes
2005-10-31 02:59 pm UTC (link)
I think the question in #6 is why send in a new spy? Why not send the guys you have in the country to poke around discreetly? Inserting a spy takes work and time, and provides the risk of being caught, so really shouldn't be done unless the other country is acting really suspicious or you are getting reports that all is not what it seems.

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(no subject) - [info]rhjunior, 2005-11-01 03:37 am UTC

[info]bneuensc
2005-10-31 05:10 pm UTC (link)
Not fantasy, but if you want to see good, solid espionage that doesn't depend on Bond-style gadgetry, run, do not walk, to get a copy of the British TV series The Sandbaggers. (If you know the comic book series Queen and Country, it is in fact a direct ripoff of the show, down to many of the plots.) Fantastic series from the late 70s/early 80s about a group of three special operatives in the British intelligence service, which really shows the politicking that goes on around the actual fieldwork of the spies -- plus all the complications and problems that can arise from the fieldwork. Brilliantly written stuff.

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[info]farmercuerden
2005-10-31 06:51 pm UTC (link)
Heh. Point one reminds me of Nobby and Colon in Pratchett's Masquerade. (Or is it Maskerade in Pratchett's spelling? )

SPOILERS!!!!!!!

They're there, bumbling about, distracting attention... and Andre's in there getting things done.

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[info]clayin
2005-11-01 08:45 pm UTC (link)
*notes are taken*
Ooer. I'm definitely going to have to work some kinks out before this story can ever see the light of a computer screen.
Thank you! I'll be sure to apply your points to my spy story. I'm trying to keep it fairly close to life, so this is loads of help!

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[info]indongcho
2007-09-08 08:07 pm UTC (link)
It's been a while since anyone posted here, but hey, whatever.

Suddenly I'm reminded of a movie my father made me watch a few weeks ago, that is supposedly a spy movie. It's called Bourne Identity. I call it crap.

Now, normally I try not to insult movies/tv/books, but this is one of those that is so head-bangingly stupid that I make an exception. Almost NOTHING is explained to us in the movie, so I was left grasping at straws trying to understand the plot. I asked my parents for help, and they answered, "see, he was designed to kill," and, "but he didn't kill the guy, so now he's an embarrassment." Designed to kill? What, he's a robot now? And you know, I find it a stretch to believe that the government would go to that much effort to kill someone who did nothing more sinful than...not kill someone. With less than forty minutes left, I was still lost, so I asked again, and received the same answer. (And my parents claim to be smart)

Not to mention the fact that everyone thinks this is a spy movie, even though it's about assassins. That's right. A bunch of assassins trying to kill another assassin. And I couldn't figure that out by watching it; I only got a real explanation when I looked it up on Wikipedia.

Sorry. As you can see, I really hate that movie.

Anyway, have you read Trickster's Choice and Trickster's Queen by Tamora Pierce? I'm far from an expert on spies, but I found it to be a very good spy story.

And Elfshadow sounds interesting; I'm definitely going to look that up.

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