Limyaael ([info]limyaael) wrote,
@ 2005-11-01 23:00:00
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Current mood: exhausted
Current music:though happy
Entry tags:fantasy rants: autumn 2005, subgenre rants

Ten great things about non-tragic fantasy
(I will answer comments on the espionage rant tomorrow. I'm sorry, but I've written about 11,000 words today, counting the rant, which, according to the way my wrists ache, was clearly too many. I'm happy, though).

Now this is an interesting topic, isn’t it.



I’ve been more interested in comic fantasy lately—well, not necessarily comic, but there isn’t a better word for it, damnit, because “light” gets people thinking “joke-filled,” and “non-tragic” can still mean things like “dark” and “angsty” and “filled with whiny teenagers who are inexplicably not pimply.”

Maybe “life-affirming.” While tragedy focuses on some great and overwhelming end—apocalypse, the fall of a hero, the death of something beautiful and wonderful—this kind of fantasy bows to life first, to continuation and survival.

1) Individual choice can be reemphasized. I’ve talked about one way of characterization in which characters cannot possibly do other than what they do, because of their personalities and relationships and backgrounds and bonds. Viewed as one way, it’s inevitable that a tragic fantasy comes to the end it does, because the people in it won’t let it end any other way. That’s really nothing new; the idea of the tragic flaw is as old as the Greeks. But it’s a truth, not the truth.

There’s also a way of characterization in which characters are seen as more than the sum of their personalities and relationships and backgrounds and bonds. After all, those are their pasts, or what become their pasts as the story continues. But there’s also always the moving present, at least up until the point when the story comes to its final crisis, and even beyond that for those who survive. And as long as something has not actually happened, it can still be changed.

I would like to see more stories hinge not on a battle or a confrontation whose outcome is certain, but on a character’s choice. And if it takes delicate work to make characterization seem inevitable, imagine the knife-edge that an author must walk in order to keep a character’s choice possibly up in the air, possibly still uncertain. Not even keeping a love triangle in genuine doubt requires such skill. Until the final moment, the story can still sheer either way, and still it’s something other than tragedy.

Writing with that philosophy sounds really neat to me.

2) Causal universes. I’ve come to appreciate destiny-focused fantasy, to an extent, given what you can do when mucking about with the metaphysics and theology of a fantasy world. And it’s certainly a more hospitable environment for tragic fantasy. Someone who’s going to be forced by a prophecy to go on a quest and save the world, but who will die along the way, and yet can’t back out without damning everyone, is almost certainly going to be a tragic figure.

But my first love was causal universes—here defined as universes where gods either do not exist or do not have ultimate power, where destiny is uncertain or nonexistent, where free will matters, and there isn’t only one way to save the world. Not to mention all the other stories that you can tell in a universe like that which have nothing to do with saving the world. Where people aren’t compelled to do such and such a thing by Necessity or Destiny or the gods or whatever name authors use to kick characters into motion against their will and justify reluctant heroes, then what do you have?

Choice, again, and free willl. But this time, it rules from the beginning of the story forward, and makes tragic fantasy more unlikely the moment someone looks up and says, “I want to do this.”

I think it’d be really interesting to see romantic fantasy set in a causal universe, without goddesses of love or soul-bonds or reincarnated lovers or people destined to love each other before birth or taboos imposed by the gods or any of this utter nonsense. Imagine what power that would give to desire. For that matter, imagine what love like this could do on its own in a non-tragic fantasy, whether or not the universe is causal.

3) Love that isn’t fucked-up. Fucked-up love is a great one for causing tragedies in fantasy. There’s incest, or there’s a love triangle (hi, tons of Arthurian retellings!), or there are lovers who damn everybody else as well as each other trying to fulfill their fiery desire. “Doomed love” is on the tip of everybody’s tongue. Isn’t the forbidden passion of Gaaagaaaka and Daaadaakan for each other just the greatest thing ever?

Well, I suppose, but I get tired of all the doomed love sometimes. For one thing, it presumes that the only lovers worth writing about are the ones with unreasonable parents or who are chosen by the gods, or who have histories of abuse. It’s harder, it seems, to do love with normal people.

And no, I’m not talking about marriages that work as business arrangements, or rapes that turn into love (what makes anyone think this is a good idea?), or love at first sight. I’m talking about love that’s genuine, whether or not it leads into marriage; that doesn’t depend on one lover screwing with the other’s psychology; that takes time to build, and never seems inevitable. Especially that last, thanks. Sure, whirlwind affairs happen in “real life”, too, but they’re overrepresented in fantasy. I really don’t think their numbers would suffer if a few more slow-moving romances were written.

I think it’s much harder to write about an ordinary relationship than an extraordinary one, just as it’s much harder to write about pleasure than pain. (See point 4). That might be its very own reason for trying.

4) Open to pleasure and beauty beyond fathoming. Beauty in fantasy novels is pretty common, but most of the time we’re told it’s only beautiful because it’s under threat. The elven lands are fading. The beautiful fields will be covered with slaughter before the ending. The lovely maiden will harden into a warrior. The beautiful character trait will be stained by a betrayal or a murder. And then, of course, there are the buckets and oceans of pain that come along with tragic fantasies.

Interesting, isn’t it, that beauty in its own right seems to come only at the end of the novel, when all the threats have been chopped away and where we don’t more than a glimpse of it, and the book is not open to buckets and oceans of pleasure?

Look. It’s another world. It’s not going to reflect our own in every outline, so yes, there will certainly be, oh, brutalities that we would never imagine because we don’t have magic. But there can also be beauties that we would never imagine because we don’t have magic either. And the lack of one to counterbalance the other becomes very noticeable when every character is abused and every love affair is tragic and every beautiful place is blown to bits soon after the party arrives and every change is for the worse.

A more complicated world is one that acknowledges beauty and pain existing side by side, that does not darken the whole world because the protagonist has argued with his lover that day, that does not pretend all birth has stopped because one death has occurred. It’s hard as fuck to portray, I will grant you that. It’s much easier to focus in on the bad things in one person’s life and show the explosion of that eventually engulfing the world. But that’s only because it’s long-worn habit. There’s nothing that says all fantasy must inevitably be tragic, that pain is the law of life in every world.

5) Time to face the music. Ever notice that one thing a tragedy does is let the protagonist face only some of the consequences? Oftentimes, he dies, or he loses, say, his lover and family members, and that’s seen as enough punishment. His actions ripple and eddy out from him, but the ripples and eddies halt long before they start affecting other people. The consequences to others are never seen, because the focus is the tragic hero.

But if you don’t aim the whole book at a tragedy, then you have this option: that the protagonist, who has done massive things that affect the whole world, now has to watch those consequences as they hit others. And then, if he’s a moral person, he has to take a deep breath, and admit any mistakes he made, and start atoning.

Not ride away into the sunset with his lover, not die and escape, not commit suicide, not fall as a hero defeating the Dark Lord, not mysteriously win a kingdom that mysteriously has nothing wrong with it after the mysteriously undevastating natural havoc and battles and monsters that the Dark Lord unleashed. Rule, or help, or survive. Live among the society affected by the catastrophes he’s unleashed.

…I’m starting to think that that blueprint ease of tragedy is one huge reason that so many plot arcs of that kind get written. There aren’t as many blueprints for the others. And they’re almost all harder.

6) Life (and love) in peacetime. I’ve spoken before about non-war plotting, so I won’t get into everything I said then. Besides, some of the plots I mentioned were still implicated in war, as in preventing it from happening (something many fantasy characters, for all their claims that war is terrible, don’t seem interested enough in doing. /mini-rant)

But we’ve heard lots of those stories, just wars and terrible wars and wars that are good because one side says so and lovers torn apart by war and snore—excuse me. There should have been a final term there, but I forgot it in my boredom.

What does your fantasy society look like when it’s not in chaos? How do people live when they aren’t girding for war or revolution? What happens when, instead, a poet gets charged with blasphemy and has to finagle his way out of the country’s complicated court system? What happens when a woman is getting annoyed with her prissy sister and finally thinks up a scheme to put her in her place? What happens when a horse speaks back to his driver one day, and it doesn’t turn out to be a magical ability that the Dark Lord is hunting him for?

Commit yourself to having no war in your story, ever, and you’ve deprived yourself of a very big source of tragic fuel. So the story has to go in another direction, yay. And it can be one free of the platitudes of war that have become banal through repetition, also yay.

Of course, sometimes you have to reconceive of the way you treat the characters in that kind of story.

7) We are all fortune’s fools. A very large part of tragedy—again, as conceived in the tragic fantasy I’ve seen—is a ranking of people. The hero with the tragic flaw has it because he’s just so damn great. He’s somehow better than the people around him. His fate and fall is by rights the center of all eyes. Let this go too far, and you’ve got one of those dreadful things again where there’s one developed character moving through a world of cardboard cutouts.

Shake that away. Work on a level playing field. Now, everyone is just as bewildered and confused and mistaken about life as everyone else. The protagonist is interesting. So is his sister. So is her maid. So is the maid’s sister. So is the child she just got to sleep.

You see how it goes. It’s much harder to rank people. Your characters will probably still do it, but—here comes the important part--authorial attitude cannot intrude into the story and say that one person is inherently better or more important than anyone else. You’re not allowed to have any favored children. You’re not allowed to have things happen just because you want to show one of them up as being helpless or stupid or silly or vicious as compared to your competent or intelligent or wonderful or compassionate hero. And you have to do it all the damn time.

Have I mentioned that this is hard, again?

8) Acceptance that comes in time. Tragic heroes usually don’t recognize their flaws until it’s too late, because otherwise they would stop short of the precipice. Likewise, authors delay and delay epiphanies of other kinds when they want tragedies, because the prince would certainly run up the tower in a hurry if he knew the villain was planning to push the princess off the balcony. Go too far and this seems like gimmicky coincidence, of course, with characters always having Big Misunderstandings that ten more seconds of conversation would solve, but it can be done well.

So what happens when a character does accept, after wrestling with himself and arguing with other people, perhaps, that he is X, or that X is true, or that X is really in love with him? And he does it before the end of the story, and the big climax where he finds out that he’s X by burning people to death, or that X is true because he catches the villain in a lie, or that X is really in love with him because he rescues her?

Now you’ve not only got some story space to see what the consequences of the acceptance are, you’ve got a character who’s able to accept X and is certainly going to use it to his advantage.

Ooh, I wanna read about a character like that. I bet he won’t self-deceive himself into any tragic corner. Sure, the moment when the tragic hero’s scales fall from his eyes can be fun, but so are the times when the character smacks himself on the forehead and says, “…I’ve been an idiot, haven’t I?”

9) Other emotional tones. One unfortunate side-effect of tragedy is that authors start feeling they need to coat the whole story with that emotion. Light moments become few and far between, unless they’re gallows humor (which some authors cannot write to save their lives, any more than they can write wit). Every remark must be Full of Portent. Everyone acts as if every gesture has Weight. There are Symbolic Moments With Birds and Flowers. I am being sick in the corner, but no one notices, because there are Prophetic Dreams Full of Black Mountains to watch.

Yet that strikes me as counterproductive, even for a tragedy. If nothing else, the tragic hero has connections to other people who are busy having lives of their own. People don’t stop getting married and throwing food at each other and failing tests and losing their jobs because one person has learned that he’s fated to die. And they’ll influence the story, unless they’re the cardboard cutouts I mentioned earlier, who are not allowed to have any emotion that doesn’t relate to the hero.

Release your fantasy from the chains of tragedy, and you’ve got a palette of colors, a symphony of sounds, a room full of flickering light. The range of emotions one person can experience in a day astounds me. If more attention was paid to that, and less to the climax at the story’s end, I can only imagine what would happen, even for a tragedy. And fantasies that aren’t tragic can use the whole range without worrying that it might somehow distract from the Prophetic Dream of the Black Mountain.

10) Consistency. So the tragedy is all set up, inevitable, ready to happen. The hero is going to confront the Dark Lord, and he’s going to die. He knows it. He’s made his peace with it. The writer sends him into the Dark Fortress.

And then she cheats.

Have I mentioned how much I hate that? I really, really do. Whether it’s through a loophole or the sudden intrusion of a god or the protagonist dying and coming back to life for no discernible reason (please tell me what drug you’re smoking, authors who do that), the author suddenly finds she can’t write a tragedy after all, and shunts the whole inevitability thing aside. Or, even worse, she knew all along that she couldn’t write one, and that this lame deus ex machina was going to come out of nowhere and ruin her ending, and she wrote the story that way anyway.

*Limyaael flings random things around the room*

See, non-tragic fantasies do not have this problem. The author can be consistent throughout them. If they bound towards a happy ending, that’s where they’re going. If they spend half the book as one thing and half another, then there are clues before the alteration, the alteration takes place a sane distance from the end and for a sane reason, and then the second half becomes a self-consistent and still wonderful story. If the ending is spiky and sarcastic, then the tone lets you know it’s going to be that way from the beginning. Just as they don’t pull lame copouts out of their asses, they also don’t suddenly kill everyone in a random fashion because “that’s what happens in real life” if the author has been writing in a clearly moral and moralistic universe. The author knows what she wants to write and what she can write, and everyone is happy. Well, at least I am.

If you don’t want a tragedy, please consider the benefits of non-tragic fantasy today!



A lot of my recent interests lately—post-apocalypse stories that are really post- and not focused on the event itself, stories about recovery and healing, stories that demonstrate the true psychological cost of abuse and the rising past it rather than simply curing it with True Love—can be traced back to this, I think. And I still wish there was a better way of defining it than by the name of what it’s not.

Ah, well. “Life-affirming” will do.




(Post a new comment)


[info]youraugustine
2005-11-02 04:16 am UTC (link)
. . . see, I think a lot of those points apply to tragic fantasy, too. At least, I personally find it more tragic to watch the consequences of actions spin out around in ALL directions and ALL the ows (and random not-ows, and so on).

Then again, I can't ever tell whether WoA is a tragedy or not. ::pokes it:: It looks like it in bits, but the point and the focus is always what happens after. ::throws up hands:: Meh!

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]kutsuwamushi
2005-11-02 04:36 am UTC (link)
Yes.

Tragedy is so much more effective when it's balanced by other things, like love and peace. It makes it hurt more when the blow comes.

And authors can be so unimaginative about where the blow is coming from, too. A tragedy without gods and destinies? Shocking, but I'd love to see one. I'd also love to see a tragedy with a real *tragic hero*, the type who's doomed because of his own flaws, rather than ... an excess of nobility, or whatever. (I'm tired of characters nobly deciding to die for a cause. Where are those that just make *mistakes*?)

I've always been drawn to that type of story.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]youraugustine, 2005-11-02 04:46 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]kutsuwamushi, 2005-11-02 05:28 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]youraugustine, 2005-11-02 05:34 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2005-11-05 11:57 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2005-11-05 11:56 pm UTC

[info]dryaunda
2005-11-02 05:27 am UTC (link)
[R]apes that turn into love[:] what makes anyone think this is a good idea?


There's a fantasy. Somebody who's so good in the sack that violation becomes a kinky spice. Either that, or the author not feeling that there's anything to violate.

What's the gender ratio of people who write about this, by the way?

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]criada
2005-11-02 05:49 am UTC (link)
Based on my experience? Way more girls than guys. Thanks to various personal and social repressions, some girls feel so unable to do anything, that they have to be forced into doing something they would otherwise enjoy. Since having sex, especially rough sex, is frequently frowned on, rape provides a way to do it and still be a good girl.
All of which adds to the overall fucked-up-ness of our world.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]dryaunda, 2005-11-02 05:54 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]marumae, 2005-11-02 02:58 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2005-11-06 12:01 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]andrusi, 2005-11-03 11:02 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2005-11-06 12:00 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]dryaunda, 2005-11-06 12:22 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]korimyr12, 2005-11-10 12:01 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]saccharine_sift, 2006-04-09 07:07 pm UTC

[info]paladina
2005-11-02 05:30 am UTC (link)
Thinking about points one and two in some of my stories, what about this case: there is a Big Whopping Prophecy, but most of the characters don't find out about it until late in the story, and some of them never do. Most of the prophecies are in fact fulfilled by the characters' decisions.

(Reply to this)


[info]amberdine
2005-11-02 05:52 am UTC (link)
I think I've figured it out.

All 10 of your great things would make for a story that was, you know, hard to write! It'd take thinking, and honesty, and daring, and, and...stuff.

Maybe that's why it's so rare.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]limyaael
2005-11-06 12:03 am UTC (link)
Maybe. Or maybe the want is there, but not the will.

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[info]seldear
2005-11-02 06:00 am UTC (link)
[info]arabel told me to come and read your journal because it was good, and she was right!

I have to say, I really liked all your points, but especially #3 regarding slow moving romances and non-screwed-up love, and #6 about life in peacetime or when crisis doesn't loom.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]amberdine
2005-11-02 06:15 am UTC (link)
Oh! I love your icon and now must friend you.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]seldear, 2005-11-02 06:18 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]amberdine, 2005-11-02 06:32 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]tamerterra, 2005-11-02 07:35 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]seldear, 2005-11-02 08:07 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]raleighj, 2005-11-02 04:54 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]dracobolt, 2005-11-02 10:56 pm UTC
One bandwagon I'm more than happy to jump onto. - [info]slimshadowen, 2005-11-03 04:57 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2005-11-06 12:04 am UTC

[info]sephielzero
2005-11-02 09:09 am UTC (link)
Thank you, the timing on this couldn't be better. I just started my nano, and while it's not fantasy, I wanted a definately life-affirming kind of feel to it. So excuse me while I reread this a few times, heh.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]limyaael
2005-11-06 12:05 am UTC (link)
*grin* You're welcome.

This kind of thing, I think, is what a lot of light fantasy tries for and doesn't achieve. It becomes too mired in jokes rather than true life-affirming-ness.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]riyuen
2005-11-02 11:10 am UTC (link)
Not ride away into the sunset with his lover, not die and escape, not commit suicide, not fall as a hero defeating the Dark Lord, not mysteriously win a kingdom that mysteriously has nothing wrong with it after the mysteriously undevastating natural havoc and battles and monsters that the Dark Lord unleashed. Rule, or help, or survive. Live among the society affected by the catastrophes he’s unleashed.

See, that's one of the things I really enjoyed about Rurouni Kenshin. It concentrates on the new era just past the great war, and the hero does have to react to the changes he's helped bring about.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]alanahikarichan
2005-11-02 12:18 pm UTC (link)
Yes, RurouKen does that very very well. ^-^;; And though Kenshin has plenty to angst over, he doesn't angst-- well, not too much-- which is a refeshing change from most fantasy.

Plus the setting is just absolutely cool. *Hearts Meiji Japan*

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) - [info]dialogue, 2005-11-02 08:26 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]riyuen, 2005-11-03 02:56 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]blunder_buss, 2005-11-03 04:48 am UTC

[info]tamerterra
2005-11-02 07:36 pm UTC (link)
"but so are the times when the character smacks himself on the forehead and says, “…I’ve been an idiot, haven’t I?”"

I'm counting that as a NaNo challenge. *has been collecting dares*

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]limyaael
2005-11-06 12:05 am UTC (link)
I've used it several times. It's fun.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Glad I read this rant...
[info]dialogue
2005-11-02 08:29 pm UTC (link)
Because I've been feeling guilty about not writing a piece of tragic drama and wanting to write a happy ending. I was afraid that I wasn't taking it seriously enough, but goshdarnit, I want to write a story about something that works out without tragic consequences. And here are some tools to make it work without being drivel.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Glad I read this rant...
[info]limyaael
2005-11-06 12:06 am UTC (link)
I'd say it's not happy endings that you need to be afraid of, but false happy endings. The ones that focus on just a small group of characters to the exclusion of all else, as if what happened to them was really what happened to the whole world, and pretend that joy for one of them somehow makes up for all the death and destruction a tragic fantasy calls on, are the ones that ring false for me.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]otakukeith
2005-11-02 08:37 pm UTC (link)
Life-affirming?! You can't write life-affirming fiction these days and expect to be taken seriously! Everything has to be dark and tragic and edgy, and all the characters must be tragically stupid and horribly selfish and unthinking, and the ending must infuse the reader with such a sense of doom and futility that they go off and slit their wrists! Otherwise you're obviously writing for children.

;) Amen to seeing more life-affirming fiction of all kinds. That said, I think you can have tragic but life-affirming stories about characters' reactions to events outside their control.

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[info]deathglare
2005-11-02 10:28 pm UTC (link)
Yeah, life-affirming fiction probably have more impact written in darker environments. With so many people being like that and letting the bleakness gnaw away at them, One manages to rise above the mess of it all.

Just like the rare goth that finally realizes "What the fuck have I been doing all this?" and actually get to being alive and enjoying.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) - [info]kgbooklog, 2005-11-02 11:02 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]otakukeith, 2005-11-03 03:27 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2005-11-06 12:07 am UTC

[info]jaquiel
2005-11-02 08:51 pm UTC (link)
About point one: Have you ever read Fevre Dream? It's by Martin, so it's good just because he's so awesome. Anyway, this reminded me of that story because all sorts of really bad things happen, but I don't really consider it a tragedy because the characters make choices to keep it from being a tragedy.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]limyaael
2005-11-06 12:07 am UTC (link)
No, but it's one of the books I want to try and find someday.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Life affirming fiction...YES!
[info]jennifer_dunne
2005-11-02 10:08 pm UTC (link)
Yes! Exactly!
There's a reason my tag line is "Hot and Heartwarming Fiction". :-) I want to write stories where the reader finishes them with a sense that every individual's decisions matter, and that there's a point to trying to improve the world, or your little piece of it, and that good not only triumphs, it gets to laze about in a sunny hammock in the back garden afterwards.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Life affirming fiction...YES!
[info]limyaael
2005-11-06 12:08 am UTC (link)
Interesting! I enjoy stories I finish with a feeling of triumph or joy. The catharsis of pain or pity is enjoyable as well, but so much more common that I'd like to see more of the other kind.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]avrelia
2005-11-03 01:05 am UTC (link)
A great life-affirming rant. Thank you. I haven't been around much lately, but I enjoy your rants as always.

(Reply to this)


[info]calenturian
2005-11-03 01:52 am UTC (link)
I like the label "life-affirming" - now I have something to call my nano-novel (that name works on two levels, as it's currently about 1000 words) with utterly 0% OMGdestiny or war or token love interests. It's not going to be great literature (at least not in November) but it'll be a lot better than it could otherwise be.

My protagonist suffers from a mild case of #5 - she runs away from one consequence of her choice, straight into a much bigger set of consequences. That was going to be the end of the timeline, but now that I've cut out half of my plot, I've got much more room for some that-was-stupid-better-make-the-most-of-it type of action.

(Reply to this)


[info]blunder_buss
2005-11-03 04:44 am UTC (link)
I think all my fanfics are gonna be non-tragic fantasy. The world they're set in can be a very unfair and grim world, but it's definately not dark.

5) Is a very good character motivation, I think. Character A does something that indirectly causes a large war. Character A feels responsible, and thus strives to end the war he accidentally created. Then he gets sucked into it, as wars tend to do, and then the ball rolls from there.

Of course, it IS freaking annoying when Character A is given an angsty matyr-complex. Okay, you made a mistake, just grow up and deal with it instead of pitying yourself all the time! GAH.

The hero is going to confront the Dark Lord, and he’s going to die. He knows it. He’s made his peace with it. The writer sends him into the Dark Fortress.

Okay, a little off topic, but that drives me nuts. If he knows he's gonna die, why the hell is he doing it? I really can't buy someone trotting off like a lamb to slaughter without stressing every other possible alternatives or doing SOMETHING else. And I'll think he's a stupid moron.

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[info]limyaael
2005-11-06 12:09 am UTC (link)
If someone makes the decision to die reluctantly, but because he knows it's the only choice, or because he's been brainwashed into doing so, I don't have much of a problem with it. But yes, the character who's apparently suicidal and doesn't consider any other option comes across as a moron. (I think authors rely far too much on suicidal characters or characters with nothing left to lose).

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]midnight_mind
2005-11-03 05:33 am UTC (link)
"10) Consistency. So the tragedy is all set up, inevitable, ready to happen. The hero is going to confront the Dark Lord, and he’s going to die. He knows it. He’s made his peace with it. The writer sends him into the Dark Fortress.

And then she cheats."

For a moment I thought you meant the protagonist. Because I have a character who's fated to die when killing the villain, but cheats by not killing him about two years early and in a different way.

And now several priests are mad at her for mocking the word of their goddess (the prophecy she messed up) and only very reluctantly admit that, yes, she both saved her own life and the lives of about half their populace (who were supposed to die too).

I had so much fun with that.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Cheating is good.
[info]slimshadowen
2005-11-03 05:25 pm UTC (link)
When it flouts conventional storytelling, anyway.

If she figures out a way through the prophecy without dying halfway through the book or well before it happens, it's good.

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(no subject) - [info]jessara40k, 2005-11-05 12:19 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]midnight_mind, 2005-11-09 04:29 am UTC

[info]tj_dragon
2005-11-03 11:15 am UTC (link)
Seriously if you haven't already you must read Diana Wynne Jones.
Her protagonists are rounded people with their own motives, attitudes and flaws; some of which they know about, others they discover in the story.
Her protagonists are not the most important people in the world, the supporting/minor casthave their own lives and motives even if they only appear briefly.
She often has casual worlds, when she does use fate/prophecy its ot the driving force of the book, the characters are. One book does, quite literally, have a deus ex machina, but far from fixing everything it just gives the main characters more responsibilities.
Romance is not destined, usually there are established couples or people grow to like each other in an organic (and sometimes unlikely) ways. Occasional love-at-first sight couples are usually not main characters
I recommend Dark Lord of Derrkholm as a starting point because it takes the typical fantasy quest story, turns it inside out then tips it on it's head.

I'll admit I'm fangirling just a little here but I'm convinced that DWJ is worth it. She's certainly not typical and writes really well.

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[info]jessara40k
2005-11-05 12:18 pm UTC (link)
Oh yes Dark Lord of Derkholm is incredible. Let me join you in reccomending it.

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(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2005-11-06 12:10 am UTC

[info]slimshadowen
2005-11-03 05:16 pm UTC (link)
1) I'm trying. Really I am.

2) Again, trying. Having more success with one than the other.

3) Ugh. But guilty, guilty, guilty as charged. I've done all of the above and worse. Though I'm working on a story now where there is no chance of it happening.

4) Ever find a punk girl with a load of piercings, a propensity for foul language and carrying a steel pipe beautiful? I have. And guess what? She doesn't get all girly-fied with a pretty pink dress and a bunch of makeup, and the one time she gets giggly in the story has nothing to do with sex.

5) The consequences of this particular story I'm still dealing with, so I have no idea how the protagonists would handle it. However, I do have another story that ends in a "OMGWTFEMOTIME" manner. It ends that way because of the character's flaws that he knows he has and still can't seem to get rid of. I'm so ashamed.

6) Heh. In the one book that I'm really trying for the non-stereotypey-thing, the all-out wars are long over...although the results of the book push tension between the nations up a few notches.

7) I try. Lawdy lawdy lawd, how I try.

8) How about knowing some of his flaws right off the bat and figuring out others as he goes along? Or not having the epiphany until well after the climax of the story (say, the sequel, and then sometime in the middle of the book?...)?

9) A very light-hearted story, at least at first. (One thing the protagonist knows is, "If you can't laugh, you might as well cry." One thing he learns, somewhere aruond the middle of the book, is "Sometimes it's not a bad thing if you can't laugh." No, not in those precise words and not just plunked down into dialogue.)

10) I have cheated in the past, but I'm trying not to with this one.

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[info]shaycaron
2005-11-04 06:41 am UTC (link)
As always, a well-thought-out and enjoyable rant. ^_^

Oh, I've finally got around to updating that compiled rant site I put together months ago. Still far from complete, but it's at least got links to everything now.

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[info]limyaael
2005-11-06 12:11 am UTC (link)
Thank you! I know that's one of the ways people find the rants, so thank you for updating it.

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[info]raleighj
2005-11-04 12:44 pm UTC (link)
One of my favorite ones you've posted recently. I especially like #4, 5, and 9.

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[info]nemi_chan
2005-11-06 07:22 am UTC (link)
Friend pointed me here and I clicked. I like your thoughts, they make me happy, they make me feel like writing though I've gotten 6 hours of sleep a night for the past few days. Who knows, I might even make Nano.

I want to sell novels, I want to make my living off of writing. And Romance novels sell. But though I have never read the damn things (I'll have to, eventually, to see how erotic I can get in it, because face it, sex sells), I know they are rife with cliche, repetivive, carbon copies.

So I thought to myself. I like fantasy, I don't want a cliche. I don't want to write what everyone else writes. I want to write something GOOD, while still having the 'romance' of seduction.

Number one cliche of romance is the 'submitting woman' followed right up by 'knight in shining armor'

That thought led to the predictable damsle in distress, slay the dragon thought.

Well, for a fantasy setting with knights and princess and kings and such, who's going to be a strong female? I thought, breifly, of using a farmer woman, defending her place her home. But that's a sterotype too. No, I wanted something like an iron maiden CEO of a company with balls of steel even though she has ovaries. Who could be that?

and then it struck me. Dragons. why not do it from a dragons perspective. A dragoness, or several, as friends, wondering why the males grab princesses so often. It followed up with poking at archtypes; princesses in the tower (really being pretty commoners with eitiquet lessons because the dragons were stealing toomany princesses), and ravaged country sides (only for fun or while 'drunk')

I still need to hammer out the villages and the systems and everything before I really get into it (because they steal a shepard boy first, for practice)

I set out to at least twist every single cliche I could, but I'm uncertain if I have the skill for it. ANd I'm worried about it being too comedic

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[info]selythe
2005-11-12 09:54 pm UTC (link)
For ideas or simply a good read, I personally liked the series starting with Dealing With Dragons by Patricia C. Wrede. I think it's a young adult series, but I remember reading the first book at least eight times.

That being said, I'd love to read your writing once you get something posted.

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[info]naodrith
2005-11-08 03:08 pm UTC (link)
...wow. #1 especially sounds a lot like my Shanahn series. The heroes can choose to "save the world" the easy way, but that would involve rejecting their friendship, and the world's not going to end anyway, but a lot of people will die. And actually, not saving the world might make it better, considering that the nation was tearing itself apart before the not-so-evil force showed up. From the beginning, the whole point was that the readers should never know what the heroes will do in the end. I just hope I can do it right.

Anyway. Thank you. This is another lovely rant, and so much of what you say clarifies my own opinions.

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[info]selythe
2005-11-12 09:49 pm UTC (link)
THANK YOU. Thank you, thank you, thank you.

I was beginning to worry, based on the comments of my creative writing teachers, that Modern Literature was defined as good by how disturbed and depressed the reader was afterwards. Not by how much they were immersed in the world, or how much they cared for the characters, or...

Well you get the idea.

I'm just gleeful that someone who writes very well is also noticing that a tacked-on downer ending is just as annoying as a tacked-on happy ending.

And that so many people here are agreeing with your assessment.

Thank you. If I knew you in person, I'd throw roses at your feet.

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[info]houseboatonstyx
2006-01-05 09:13 am UTC (link)
[[ I’ve been more interested in comic fantasy lately—well, not necessarily comic, but there isn’t a better word for it, damnit, because “light” gets people thinking “joke-filled,” and “non-tragic” can still mean things like “dark” and “angsty [....] Maybe “life-affirming.” ]]

Non-tragic isn't strong enough, and 'life-affirming'sounds political. Anti-tragic is stronger, tho pro-something might would better yet....

R.L.
blogging about my anti-Maupassant story

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[info]laraqua
2006-02-17 01:12 pm UTC (link)
I try aiming for a good dash of the tragic in my Dark Fantasy. After all, tragedy comes easier than horror to a fantasy but it's usually not that tragic all the time because the people decide that it'd be more fun cooking than complaining, or group swimming than crying, and they have a good time and THEN one of them who's slowly broke down decides to wipe out a village or the Schizophrenic decides she needs to steal the rods of teleportation or ... whatever. But however it goes, there's always those campfire moments, those games, those "It Ain't So Bad" hours or days.

Hell, you want how a tragedy should go? Watch Grave of the Fireflies. It's upbeat, light-hearted and so We're-Human-So-We'll-Try-Damn-Hard-To-Get-Some-Lemonade-From-These-Lemons god-dammned cheery but it lets you know from the get-go that only bad will come of it. So I guess my Dark Fantasy/Tragedies are based on such awesome, heart-rendingly optimistically sad, life-affirmingly wonderful, stories as that (though mine are cheesier).

Think about it ... a tragedy is particularly potent when it's life-affirming. There is nothing more beautiful than knowing that those who die lose out on not only pain but incredible joy, yet knowing that such joy is fragile and precious and certain agonies are inevitable.

You sick of those kinda tragedies yet, limyaael?

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