Limyaael ([info]limyaael) wrote,
  • Mood: cheerful

Science fiction and fantasy hybrids

Once again, I want to define some terms. I’m talking here about books with the “equipment” of both fantasy and science fiction: elves and lasers, for example, or magic and anti-gravity. I wouldn’t consider it a hybrid if there were a few machines that resembled magical artifacts but were fully explainable by any scientific laws and in any case were just named after the magical artifacts to be cute, or if there’s magic that seems like physics in disguise but turns out to be plain supernatural magic after all. And saying that a work can mingle the “attitudes” of fantasy and science fiction will just involve me in endless arguments, because you can always argue about what attitudes a book actually expresses. Equipment is the easiest standard to judge by, so I’m using it.



1) Know what role nature plays in your world. For example: is your magic considered a science, too, just in accordance with a different set of physical (or metaphysical) principles, or is science what’s done with the natural fabric of the universe and magic what’s done with the supernatural? Or do they mingle? What works where? How can your characters tell the difference? (Their knowledge can be limited, too, though not necessarily as limited as that of a reader who picks up the book for the first time. See point 2).

I think it’s necessary to know this because, otherwise, it will not be clear what your characters can depend on at a given moment and what they can’t. If it seems possible for them to use flying magic to escape from danger, but it really isn’t, then you’ll need to show why. Perhaps they’re in a place where purely natural laws hold sway, or the character’s flight magic depends on eating a certain kind of flower he hasn’t eaten in a while, or it depends on some other kind of magic which itself doesn’t work here. Make sure you know, because otherwise you have a special kind of idiot plot, where the characters conveniently forget what they’re able to accomplish so that the author can put them in more danger. It’s akin to a character being able to turn into a small bird at one point in the story, and then pretending that a cell with an unbarred window can hold her.

On an even more basic level, not knowing what works and what doesn’t can mess up the fabric of your world and render it incoherent. It might be possible to juggle a completely inexplicable system of science and a completely inexplicable system of magic, but it’s going to take more skill than simply saying, “Okay, science! Okay, magic!”

2) Multiple sources of knowledge are available. Perhaps the great discovery your characters are going to make is that science does work, when only magic was thought to; perhaps they’ll discover that the “magic” artifacts around them are really ancient technology that they can control once they combine them with, say, a mill-wheel; perhaps they’ll discover that they really are the descendants of an ancient galactic civilization. (That’s the premise behind at least two “fantasy” series I’ve heard of, though I won’t say which ones for fear of spoilers). Or perhaps they’ll discover that the technology they’ve just captured from apparently natural aliens in fact refuses to work for them, depending as it does on “exploded” arts among the humans, like sympathetic magic. Perhaps this is a post-apocalyptic world, and they’re being continually stunned by the emergence of magic in what was an ordinary Earth. Or perhaps magic is small and secret—I’ve noted before that one of the great differences between technology and magic is that technology is usually available to many people, or at least can be used by many people, while magic tends to be considered inborn and rare. So, while there are people who can actually conjure food into being, they live far away from the people who can’t, and the average citizen of the world isn’t aware of them.

What’s the advantage of this? It permits you to broaden the characters’ conception of your world slowly, so that it looks more complex than it appeared on the surface. It can resolve apparent contradictions or inconsistencies by promising further revelations. It can show the reader that your book indeed borrows some of the tricks of fantasy despite looking like science fiction, or the reverse, while the characters themselves might firmly believe they are living in one kind of world or another.

It also presents another solution to the problem I mentioned in point 1, how to keep your characters from becoming all-powerful if they have command of both lasers and fireballs. They can’t use something if they don’t know about it. Zelazny uses this solution in the Chronicles of Amber, the first series, where Corwin knows that he wants to create a certain kind of gun, but can’t simply make it himself, because he has no idea of the finer principles behind its creation. He instead has to seek out people who can make it for him. His use of the guns is based on something else unknown to the majority of his siblings: even though gunpowder doesn’t explode in Amber due to its becoming inert there, a chemical from another world does, which Corwin intends to prime the guns with. Thus, even though most of the people in the series are demigods, Zelazny can set limits on what they’re able to do.

3) Seeing what happens. What happens when you mix the different elements of the genres together—sorcerers and robots and dragons and FTL spaceships and werewolves and string theory? Possibly stew. Possibly a mess. But a great part of the delight is in trying, because the elements together enable the author to accomplish something that neither alone can.

The purest example of this I know is Simon R. Green’s science fantasy Shadows Fall. The town of the title is where fairy tales and old legends come to die. Thus there are Sidhe and talking animals present, but also androids, dead rock stars, Christian fanatics, and a threat that resembles magic but is contagious like a disease. It’s debatable whether this works, given that they’ve apparently been mixed with a lot of blood and emotional button-mashing in a blender, but the result is certainly striking. They were apparently all necessary to tell the tale that Green wanted to tell, so he stuffed them in.

Even if it’s not strictly necessary to tell the core of a limited tale, figures like these can haunt along the edges of the story. And they certainly present a challenge to the author who’s only worked in one genre to control them, justify them, and figure out what they’re doing there.

4) A change of worlds. A book that blends science fiction and fantasy is often post-apocalyptic (although sometimes the apocalypse gets shoved to the back of things and the series is mostly fantasy or science fiction on the surface, as in Terry Brooks’s Shannara world). It can also be a crossover, where one character is traveling to a different world—usually one where magic works—but is still capable of returning to a scientific or futuristic one. Thus, place is probably the easiest way to divide the elements of the hybrid up, if you want them divided and not mixed, so that magic only works in certain places and advanced technology likewise.

This can be done in any manner of ways. Different worlds, alternative universes—why not one where magic is real, at least in the sense of the natural laws taking on subtly different forms than they did in ours, or more responsiveness to a human mind?—a single place in the center from which other realities spread out (Zelazny did this with Amber), a metaphysical catastrophe that gave more prominence to one force on a single continent but didn’t affect the others, a city situated to take advantage of a “natural” upwelling of magic, a road that leads travelers through different countries where hostile magic or natural forces might await but which protects the ones on it, a country so inundated with gates and “invasions” from other worlds that it becomes a stronghold of different species in the midst of other nations that look quite different. And once you know what the place looks like, you can extrapolate metaphysics from it, or characters, or plots, or ways to break the boundaries, or imaginings of what a world would look like where all these things were true.



The next rant is apparently on “happy things about urban fantasy.” I’ll get to thinking of those right away.
Tags: fantasy rants summer 2007, subgenre rants

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  • 71 comments

[info]frenchpony

July 19 2007, 15:45:36 UTC 4 years ago

Ooo. Now you've inspired me to go and finally read Titus Alone.

[info]limyaael

July 19 2007, 18:25:34 UTC 4 years ago

Hope you enjoy it. I found the Gormenghast books hard going because of the style, and never did finish them.

[info]frenchpony

4 years ago

[info]yamamanama

4 years ago

[info]dsgood

July 19 2007, 15:52:57 UTC 4 years ago

Terms for this kind of mixture that I know of: "Science fantasy." "Starship and sorcery."

Tangent: There are stories in which science turns out to actually be magic, and ones in which magic turns out to actually be science. So far, I haven't seen stories in which both are true.

[info]limyaael

July 19 2007, 18:24:56 UTC 4 years ago

"Science fantasy" is more familiar to me (and the Green book was actually printed with that on the spine, the only one I've ever seen).

And I haven't seen a story like that, either. Something like it would be interesting to write, however.

[info]42_23

4 years ago

[info]syntaxus

July 19 2007, 16:04:52 UTC 4 years ago

Ahh thank you Limyaael, that last paragraph just gave me a good idea... *starts writing again after a several-day lull*

[info]kadharonon

July 19 2007, 16:22:32 UTC 4 years ago

As silly as they can be, the Artemis Fowl books seem to do a fairly good job of mixing high technology and magic; the fairies have to perform a ritual every so often in order to keep their magic, they can lose their magic through many ways, and although the technology of the fairies tries to do what the magic does, it never quite manages to.

They're one of my favorite fluff books series.

[info]limyaael

July 19 2007, 18:23:50 UTC 4 years ago

Those I haven't read. They sound interesting, though.

[info]ciage

July 19 2007, 16:50:31 UTC 4 years ago

Heh, one of my pet peeves is when the series totally jars you with the sudden impact of science (or magic out of nowhere after the first few hundred pages) when there's been no hint of it whatsoever prior (I wasn't a big fan of the Wayfarer Redemption series by Sarah Douglass, but I thought I'd get into the next series just to see the continuation but then I heard that it really jars from the first. I haven't read, but it annoys me for some reason). I'm fine for hybrids, but the hints have to be there, so maybe I don't see it at first, but a second read-through it's something. Usually though, low fantasy/science fiction hybrids work the best for me, but that's more of a personal taste. Then again, I kinda get bored with most stories involving magic being cast in a pseedo-medieval era just because it's been done to death. Historical earth I can understand, but in original worlds, I kinda like to see different countries/areas at completely different technological abilities.

[info]limyaael

July 19 2007, 18:23:29 UTC 4 years ago

Ugh, me too (which is why I'm grateful that in one of the "fantasy world was really founded by people from outer space" series I read, the magic is magic, with the "scientific" explanations sounding just as magical, and there's also undead, different kinds of magic, things like pisonic powers that can be either/or, and so on to counterbalance it).

I'm also bored of the pseudo-medieval era. All my favorite fantasies lately have been a version of historical Earth, pseudo-Victorian, or in a different place entirely. (I'm writing in a South American kind of setting with a varying technological level right now).

[info]jordan179

4 years ago

[info]alexmegami

July 19 2007, 17:08:50 UTC 4 years ago

There's the way a roleplaying game (Shadowrun) with both science and magic deals with it: cybernetics fucks up your ability to do magic or be magicked on, so magicians generally don't use it. It also means that very cybered-up people risk not getting healing or boosts that they could use, if the magician isn't strong enough to bypass that fuck-uppery.

The tradeoff being that they are cyborgs, with all the benefits that that calls to mind.

It's an interesting way of doing it, though of course not the only one.

[info]limyaael

July 19 2007, 18:21:09 UTC 4 years ago

I've heard of Shadowrrun, though not played it. I think something like that could work for a book, provided the author was very careful to distinguish between what worked and what didn't work, and how. It'd be very confusing to assume no magic could work with cybernetics, ever, and then run into a person who used both.

[info]lacylu42

July 19 2007, 17:37:03 UTC 4 years ago

Curious for your opinion: would a story in which magic is discovered by people in an otherwise contemporary world (ie: cars, computers, cell phones) be considered a hybrid? I'm not talking about a Harry Potter scenario where the magic "world" is separate, but one where you might pick up your cell phone and your magic amulet before walking out the door. Or is this more of an urban fantasy? Wherein lies the distinction?

[info]kippurbird

July 19 2007, 17:52:36 UTC 4 years ago

I think urban fantasy is when the story takes place in modern times while the science fiction fantasy is in other times/places etc.

[info]lacylu42

4 years ago

[info]kippurbird

4 years ago

[info]lauramcvey

4 years ago

[info]kippurbird

4 years ago

[info]lacylu42

4 years ago

[info]last_servant

July 19 2007, 17:55:56 UTC 4 years ago

Excuse me as I vomit words

I was really looking forward to this rant, although you failed to mention including some science fiction conventions in your rant. Stuff like mega-corps and fascism. You did include post-apocalypses, though, which I love.

Anyways, why I really wanted this rant is because of what I'm working on, a world where uncontrolled magic and insane advances in technology assisted by magic caused massive wars until the current regime came to power from the ashes. Now, magic is highly regulated by the state and the mega-corp. To become a mage is to subject yourself to working only for the government or megacorp, and be under constant surveillance by Judges (ghosts who can both report you and perform instant executions) and the Office of Internal Affairs, of which my MC is a worker (a non-rebellious one, thankyouverymuch).

Anyway, magic has radically developed technology, but major changes have been made. For example, guns are banned simply because having anything to do with one is a capital offense (and with near-omnipresent Judges...) which makes them VERY DANGEROUS. Solar power is the primary energy source, but has the side effect of causing water shortages, blah blah.

I'm another lurker who recently became a member, so hello to all!

Anyways, I'd like to see more fantasy like Pokemon (cringe), just because I love the way technology and "magic" intersect.

[info]limyaael

July 19 2007, 18:19:01 UTC 4 years ago

Re: Excuse me as I vomit words

I'm not as familiar with science fiction conventions such as that, which was one reason I skipped them. And nearly every SF/F hybrid I've seen has used things like genetic science or psionic powers or post-apocalyptic technology on the SF side, rather than corporations.

[info]limyaael

4 years ago

[info]jordan179

4 years ago

[info]jordan179

4 years ago

[info]jordan179

4 years ago

[info]jordan179

4 years ago

[info]shadowvalkyrie

July 19 2007, 18:06:05 UTC 4 years ago

Definitely interesting. From the title I thought you were referring to things like Marion Zimmer Bradley's Darkover series, where there are both technology and "magic" (sort of) present in the universe, but where they haven't co-developed. While the quality of the series varies strongly from book to book (at least in my opinion), the culture clash between technocratic Terrans and traditionalist Darkovans was one of the aspects in it that I loved madly. Especially what a few generations of prolonged exposion to each other do to the people and their world view.

[info]limyaael

July 19 2007, 18:17:43 UTC 4 years ago

I considered putting Darkover on the list of examples, but in the end, I think everything that seemed "magical" was explained as science fiction, even the gods/goddesses/demons/magic swords. I did like the culture clash, but I don't think there was ever a sense that the Terrans were really wrong about the Darkovans' technology being technology, just about what kind it was.

[info]limyaael

4 years ago

[info]rickgriffin

July 19 2007, 19:32:08 UTC 4 years ago

I have thought briefly about two different concepts:

1) The mixed-up worlds. A character (in a spaceship, of course) crashlands on an unexplored world. World is populated with bizzare but well-meaning inhabitants. There's a number of things on this world that neither the visitor nor his computer can explain, but they at some point have to accept that whatever it is, it works here. Kind of like magical sci-fi as opposed to magical realism. I'm sure many authors have done this before.

2) A world that's actually much like our past, where people who claim to have magical powers actually just have mundane knowledge, but they keep their techniques a secret so they pretend they're working magic. Except, boost this a thousand times. You have an elite group of hyper-competent magicians--kinda like stage magicians--that use their secrets to convince people that they're all-powerful.

[info]42_23

July 19 2007, 19:45:37 UTC 4 years ago

If you've never read it, C.S. Friedman's 'Coldfire' trilogy is at the extreme edge of what you're talking about in #1. Sort of. It takes place on a world with a somewhat psychomorphic reality, which is the root of its magic; and it follows a society descended generations from sci-fi explorers trying to colonize a new world. It's mostly fantasy grown from sci-fi, so as I said it's at the extreme edge, but I think it bears a bit of a mention.

[info]christinaathena

July 19 2007, 20:41:04 UTC 4 years ago

Perhaps they’re in a place where purely natural laws hold sway In one book I read, there was a continent in the far south where the laws of magic worked differently than the rest of the world. This sometimes had disasterous consequences, as when a group of mages during a great war attempted to cast a powerful spell that ended up backfiring and destroying them and the surrounding terrain. :-) As a result, mages from the rest of the world are very careful about using magic there.

[info]sophonica

July 19 2007, 22:13:52 UTC 4 years ago

If I'm reading a world where science and magic coexist (but are basically separate doctrines - this doesn't apply to worlds in which magic IS a science), I'm always interested to see how (if at all) they function to support society: basically if they can do the same jobs or if one is completely useless where the other flourishes.

I really dislike seeing magic used for random everyday tasks just 'because' it's magic and is more... sparkly, or something. If the author hasn't given me good reason to see why magic bumblebees are a more efficient mode of transport than an aeroplane, then I'm left wondering why on earth the characters are using them instead of just hopping on the next flight from Heathrow.

Anyway, interesting rant - thanks for writing it. :)

[info]limyaael

July 20 2007, 00:40:15 UTC 4 years ago

I don't mind seeing magic used for the everyday- in fact, if it's supposed to be the technology of its world, that makes sense- but in that case I think the writer should limit its power. Maybe every peasant knows the proper magic to season a stew; I wouldn't assume that they also knew the proper way to kill a noble and escape detection, or they wouldn't be peasants.

And thanks!

[info]cat_i_th_adage

July 19 2007, 22:41:41 UTC 4 years ago

Have you ever encountered Melissa Scott's Five-Twelfths of Heaven? She does an interesting job of building magic into her spaceships and other technology. Knowing a Pythagorean scale is important, as are harmonics. The navigation books did't use numbers, they used heavily iconised drawings.

I don't think I'm describing this well, but the magic wasn't just jet-fuel with a funny name - it had a profound effect on how things were put together.

Oh, if only I could like the heroine more.

[info]limyaael

July 20 2007, 00:40:34 UTC 4 years ago

No. That's a series I've heard about and have a sort of vague interest in, though.

[info]digoraccoon

July 20 2007, 01:10:57 UTC 4 years ago

Dang, LJ ate my long post...

What I was explaining was that I had two different series I'm writing that deal with magic and technology together. One is a post apocalyptic Earth where magic and technology are different and incompatible sciences. For example, magical electricity would ruin a computer and the white noise of a big motor would snuff out a magical light spell.

This would cause the various societies around the world to choose between one or the other science for logistical reasons (depending on which science was more readily available). This would lead to interesting experimentations on defenses of one science from the other, especially if two societies were going to war. :)

[info]sairong

July 20 2007, 02:03:09 UTC 4 years ago

Great rant. The best sci-fi/fantasy hybrid I can think of off the top of my head is Battlestar Galatica (the new, still running series, not the old one). For the most part it's sci-fi, but there's a strong mystical, religious side to it as well. Things happen on the show (prophecies, visions) that aren't ever really explained but accepted on faith. So not totally fantasy, but still an interesting contrast to the otherwise very sci-fi show.

[info]limyaael

July 20 2007, 14:31:12 UTC 4 years ago

Interesting. I haven't watched the show, but everything I've read about it seems to indicate that most people think of it as purely SF. I wonder if the fantasy elements in an SF context are less likely to make people think it's a hybrid than SF elements in a fantasy context?

[info]mythusmage

July 20 2007, 07:39:09 UTC 4 years ago

Dragon Earth As An Example

Scientific world where magic is a scientific field of study. Magic is used for many of the things we also have, and a few things we don't.

There are dragons, undead, and email spam. Truth spells are cast upon witnesses, defendents, and court officers for the duration of a trial; orcs win most of the math prizes, and paleontological, archeological, and historical research sometimes includes time probes. (The last less so than the first two because time probes can get expensive.)

The police have staff psychics, intelligence agencies use diviners, and mind reading for the purpose of market research is illegal. So are love charms.

If this gives people ideas, cool, go with it. :)

[info]dreamsofswords

July 20 2007, 17:00:57 UTC 4 years ago

You've read Green's Nightside series, right? It references Shadows Fall as another part of its mythos.

It's basically typical Green "I want to write with every idea I can come up with, whether it's science fiction or fantasy, and when I'm done, you're going to be giggling and laughing because it's fucking AWESOME" fiction.

I find they get a little worse after the first three or so (maybe he just wears on me after a time), but if you haven't, at least check those out. They contain such wonderful side characters as Julian Advent, stylish Victorian adventurer and rescuer of little orphans.

[info]boxfulofkittens

July 21 2007, 08:28:10 UTC 4 years ago

"... even though gunpowder doesn’t explode in Amber due to its becoming inert there..."

This is the thing about sci-fi/fantasy hybrids that annoys me more than it should: Science turning off. You expect to see it from magic, but... Science doesn't turn off. That's why it's Science.

http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/04/universal_fire.html

[info]thricebornfenix

July 21 2007, 21:48:18 UTC 4 years ago

You expect to see it from magic, but... Science doesn't turn off. That's why it's Science.

Isn't that just saying "there can't be magic, it's not scientific"? I doubt you can teleport through Tarot cards, for that matter. And, while science doesn't "turn off", we often find exceptions to what we had previously believed to be universal rules.

In short, science in fiction should be accepted at face value but not as necessarily real ;)

[info]jessara40k

4 years ago

[info]jessara40k

4 years ago

[info]shadowhound_89

July 24 2007, 19:02:22 UTC 4 years ago

If you ever get a chance, try On a Pale Horse, by Piers Anthony. Both magic and science co-exist in the book, though it takes place in the present day. There's a memorable scene concerning an advertiseming war between a car salesman and a flying carpet salesman. The balance is very cleverly done. It's got a pretty good plot, too. The protagonist kills Death and is forced to assume the office of the Grim Reaper. Part of the story is about how he moralizes his actions by seeing Death as a necessary force in the universe. Very interesting book.

[info]khajidu

August 1 2007, 20:04:07 UTC 4 years ago

In my fantasy world, I have sentient sailships who are artificial intelligences who use nanotechnology to repair themselves, and who can communicate telepathically with humans by means of necklaces which can read brain activity of their human bearers. There are also satellites for GPS system, and the sailships worship them as gods who speak to them (there are other gods who correspond to stars and planets).
I also have (very mild but very widespread) magic, only usable by humans (since they're organic), and people have powers which are a result of their character or behaviour, and develop at puberty.

[info]angelhedgie

August 4 2007, 08:06:17 UTC 4 years ago

Wow.

This far, and nobody's mentioned Fullmetal Alchemist? Color me surprised, because it's one of the better examples of a world where magic and science mix in a logical manner. The big thing is that the magic of the world (which is called alchemy) follows strict natural laws, so it is studied as a science - even the "cheats" aren't really cheats, once you understand how they work (and that makes them even more horrific.) But even with magic, the technology of the world developed as well, probably because of the development of the scientific method. So you have magic, but you also have trains, cars, all sorts of things. The manga gets even more in depth with this, as you eventually see foreign alchemists who, because the art of alchemy developed differently in their lands, approach the art in a different manner, and as a result can do different things.

[info]andromedaphile

August 5 2007, 03:03:58 UTC 4 years ago

Uh... I have a few books on my shelf that are science fantasy, and this rant made me look at them and think "Bitchcake, please." 's part of the reason that I hate science fantasy now.

[info]rainoneventide

February 8 2009, 00:04:26 UTC 3 years ago

This was really helpful. :] I have this vague plot idea wavering around in my mind about two worlds connected by a wormhole (yeah I know, very unique), but after doing research on wormholes, I don't think my fledgling fantasy story could handle that much detail.
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